INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 29 for Windows => Topic started by: lello on April 25, 2022, 09:05:55 am
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I don't know has already been discussed in the past, but I would like your opinion on my idea of connecting my HTPC directly to the amps, using MC as preamp in analogue with the Asus Essence ST + H6 sound card.
These days I did some tests connecting the sound card to the Onkyo TX-NR708 sinto, and I liked the result so I was thinking of buying Pro amplifiers such as Behringer, Crown etc. instead of a new receiver.
Of course the big problem is volume management, but it seems to me that JRiver can handle it well by first setting a maximum output volume.
Any advice / opinion?
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Dear Iello, tricky questions. Behringer and Crown are more for musicians than home audio. How do you listen to our music - stereo or more channel sound or also Dolby surround?
The Onkyo TX-NR708 is not a bad D/A controller.
Please advise what you want like to do - so it's easier to give you some ideas.
tc
Stefan
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Works fine
There may be concerns about what happens if any software volume controls fail, careful management of gain structure at analogue level can mitigate such concerns though
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Some old information here
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77583.0
Why do you want to switch from using the analog inputs on the Onkyo to a different power amplifier?
If you are looking at Crown and Behringer, take a look at Outlaw Audio mono blocks also. FYI - some of the pro equipment has fans, which some people find annoying.
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I only listen to music in stereo, but I hardly listen to it; I use my HT room almost exclusively for the cinema.
Initially I thought of replacing my old Onkyo with the new RZ50, but in Italy it still does not arrive and exaggerated prices are expected.
This is why I was thinking about Pro amps, not being interested in Dolby Atmos and considering the encoding carried out by MC excellent. Also I was told that with Pro power amplifiers, I would be able to have more cinema-like audio.
However, as Mattkhan rightly says, I am concerned about the gain structure at the analog level. I originally thought managing the gain on these Pro amps was the same as managing the volume, but I'm finding things are different.
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The main advantage of pro amps is that they provide a lot of power and are usually pretty rugged. It certainly depends on your speakers, but unless they are hard to drive or you want to play them really loud, I doubt you will hear a lot of difference using pro amps. If you want your stereo separate from your theater, consider a used consumer amplifier or even a good quality used AV receiver.
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I don't know has already been discussed in the past, but I would like your opinion on my idea of connecting my HTPC directly to the amps, using MC as preamp in analogue with the Asus Essence ST + H6 sound card.
I've been direct to amps for at least 15 years including with the Asus Essence ST + H6 sound card. Works fine using JRiver's internal volume control. If you have it in your area, check out the Behringer A800 since it has unbalanced inputs and is easy to connect to the Asus stuff. Almost all Crown amps have an A/D and then D/A conversion and I wouldn't recommend them.
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Yes, it is available and also has a good price. A couple of questions:
1-The front knobs manage the gain: can it be considered the volume? Or is the volume managed only by JRiver?
2-can they be suitable for my Klipsch Heresy III speakers as front, RC-62 center (connecting it in mono 800 watts are too many?) And RS-52 as surround?
(forgive my ignorance)
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Dear Iello, I'm using a good graphic card in my HTPC with two HDMI outputs. HDMI is one of the best transfer system for audio data. HDMI is then connected to a Yamaha CX-A5200 11.2 Dolby surround pre-amplifier.
This Yamaha take care of decoding all types of video and audio coming from MC or other hard and software, and you are able to connect any type of amplifier to it.
This is my configuration and just an idea.
TC
Stefan
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Yes, it is available and also has a good price. A couple of questions:
1-The front knobs manage the gain: can it be considered the volume? Or is the volume managed only by JRiver?
2-can they be suitable for my Klipsch Heresy III speakers as front, RC-62 center (connecting it in mono 800 watts are too many?) And RS-52 as surround?
(forgive my ignorance)
The Heresy III are extremely efficient at 99 dB (the center is 98 dB) and have a recommended power maximum of 100 watts. I would be very careful with a very powerful amp. One minor mistake could ruin the speakers. Plus, you would only be able to use a small portion of the volume control, no matter where it is. A smaller, high quaility amp may be more appropriate. Be careful.
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Thanks to everyone for the valuable advice, now I have much clearer ideas :D
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I have 2 different types Behringer amps in my setup and if you go with any of them be prepared to replace the fans to quieter ones. It is easy and for the cost of the amps still cheaper than some competitors. I'm happy with them.
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I don't know has already been discussed in the past, but I would like your opinion on my idea of connecting my HTPC directly to the amps, using MC as preamp in analogue with the Asus Essence ST + H6 sound card.
These days I did some tests connecting the sound card to the Onkyo TX-NR708 sinto, and I liked the result so I was thinking of buying Pro amplifiers such as Behringer, Crown etc. instead of a new receiver.
Of course the big problem is volume management, but it seems to me that JRiver can handle it well by first setting a maximum output volume.
Any advice / opinion?
Hi
no problem, will work fine. I use an RME UFX II as DAC (and ADC) and route directly to poweramps.
Volume by JRiver or I actually use acourateconvolver (www.audiovero.com).
With JRiver you can route also analogue inputs like vinyl to the output (DAC), function: file/open live.
Peter
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... connecting my HTPC directly to the amps, using MC as preamp in analogue with the Asus Essence ST + H6 sound card....
My only comment/suggestion is this (based upon my own experience)...
A computer-based interface is quite different than the physical "touch and feel" knobs interface of your usual preamp.
Until you get comfortable with the "computer as a preamp" aspect of things, make sure your speakers are appropriately protected from the "oops" that might occur.
I went through a couple speaker fuses while i was learning.
:)
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MC has Volume Protection
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume#Volume_Protection
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I have been using DAC straight to amp and soundcard straight to amp for about a decade with no problems. Depending on the system there are different ways to set thing up. Just small things to play with in settings like:
- Do you use system volume or internal volume?
- Will you need to adjust gain to match volume of non MC streaming service to avoid it being a bit louder when switching?
- Is system volume too sensitive (loud at 5 when volume goes to 100)?
I have one setup where I use system volume, the knob on the DAC controls system volume. It is a bit sensitive so I use a low start up volume and have a max volume set.
I have another setup where the DAC has its own volume. I set system volume to 100 then adjust the knob to be at what I want as maximum. There is no way for it to go louder.
I have another setup where system volume is forced to max by the ASIO driver so I use MC internal volume.
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This is expert territory. Experts can do this "for a decade with no problems". Others not so much. I would not personally risk this and live with the inherent danger and compromises. Plus I LIKE volume knobs. ...and real remote controls with buttons.
Brian.
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MC has Volume Protection
Excellent! I didn't know that.
At the time I was initially doing the computer as a preamp thing, I had not yet discovered MC.
The other software did not have that feature (that I knew of).
thx.
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Like others here, my DAC volume control is set to 100% and feeds my amps directly, with no attenuation to a tri-amp speaker system including subs. Close to 3 kilowatts of power. No attenuation in the DAC or amps, everything is wide open.
I control the volume using JRiver's internal volume control. I also use "volume protection" which works great as I have had a few incidents during loopback measurements with a mic and created a feedback loop.
As long as volume protection is enabled, the risk is pretty minimal. Don't forget to set Windows sound theme to no sounds ;-)
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Mitcho, of course, would be classified as an expert user.
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I would like to ask one thing: does the analog connection exclude the pre section of the receiver? Or is it still active?
Thanks again everyone
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But I would like to ask one thing: does the analog connection exclude the pre section of the receiver? Or is it still active?
Thanks again everyone
The Pure option turns off the Video section of the receiver so its electrical signals do not interfere with the analog signal.
The Direct option turns off most of the audio processing, but allows you to use the Audyssey speaker settings. See the manual for details.
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I was taking a look at this 7-channel amplifier from Emotiva: do you think it would be a good match with my Klipsch? Would I get a good improvement over my Onkyo NR 708 or would the difference be minimal because what matters is the preamp?
https://emotiva.com/collections/basx-series/products/basx-a7-seven-channel-power-amplifier
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I go directly out to amps (mostly pro-amps with class a for highs and mids) but I use an audio interface with analog hardware volume attenuation for the 10 balanced outs. I don't think I'd be confident running Windows of all things at full tilt feeding amps without any sort of analog volume buffer in between or at LEAST a reliable D/A system with a hardware mute that will operate separately of Windows.
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I go directly out to amps (mostly pro-amps with class a for highs and mids) but I use an audio interface with analog hardware volume attenuation for the 10 balanced outs. I don't think I'd be confident running Windows of all things at full tilt feeding amps without any sort of analog volume buffer in between or at LEAST a reliable D/A system with a hardware mute that will operate separately of Windows.
MC has a volume protection function that does not allow rapid changes in volume. You can also set the maximum output level. Not foolproof, but very good protection.
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It's not fool proof as it still has a chance of Windows somehow accessing the audio device on its own, or something like a BSOD taking down your system causing the last bit of buffered audio to keep playing on repeat until the BSOD finishes and your system properly restarts.
I think using JRiver for volume control is perfectly acceptable, and next to OTHER methods of digital volume attenuation, probably favorable.
However, I don't see a reason to not ALSO have some sort of analog safety in the signal chain, especially if you're dealing with pro amps. You can go fully passive on the attenuation front if need be too.
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I've used MC connected to a power amp for as long as I can remember.
It would blow my house up if it sent a full level output!
I use volume protection and it's just been perfect for me.
It's kind of fun I even have a subwoofer biamped to the same power amp that my Dad helped me build. Not everyone has home-made parts!
Then for extra credit, it's really complicated to output to my setup. Normal output from programs would get it all wrong.
But I use our WDM driver, set it to 5.1, and things I watch in a browser just work perfect.
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I've used MC connected to a power amp for as long as I can remember.
It would blow my house up if it sent a full level output!
I use volume protection and it's just been perfect for me.
It's kind of fun I even have a subwoofer biamped to the same power amp that my Dad helped me build. Not everyone has home-made parts!
Then for extra credit, it's really complicated to output to my setup. Normal output from programs would get it all wrong.
But I use our WDM driver, set it to 5.1, and things I watch in a browser just work perfect.
Output routing is the best! I don't use JRiver's much anymore (I do most of it through an interface now, other than bass management) but it was actually one of the reasons I started using JRiver. I use 10 channels of D/A for a 5.2 system so routing all of that was far beyond the capabilities of any receiver on the market at the time (other than Trinnov's).
JRiver's flexible routing options are incredible IMO. Really nothing comes close to it without delving into the world of higher end audio interfaces (even there, JRiver is really one of the only players supporting video that elegantly handles high channel count ASIO drivers).
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I wanted to test it:
Today I moved my rme HDSPe AIO Pro pcie card (has same DAC as rme ADI-2 DAC FS) from my Living Room to my Workstation (HO) connected through analogue XLR cables directly to Canton AM 5 Active Desktop Speakers.
Everythings works as expected. :)
With MC & Active Speakers it's a very smart system!
The only think I would missing is my Devialet Volume Control (if I would going active speakers also in my Living Room).
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This is like operating a race car. Many people do it with no issues. But the more you race the higher your risk. Race cars blow up and crash sometimes.
Do a web search on this topic (MC directly into power amps) and read the reports of people destroying tweeters or "almost blowing up my speakers", or "a deafening sound came out".
I would never do this and I have experience with Windows going back to 3.1 and DOS 4.X. Again, it can be done. Just like race cars can be operated without crashing or burning. But you should know the risks before you get into the race car.
Brian.
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Thanks for the interventions, but nobody answered my question:
I was taking a look at this 7-channel amplifier from Emotiva: do you think it would be a good match with my Klipsch? Would I get a good improvement over my Onkyo NR 708 or would the difference be minimal because what matters is the preamp?
https://emotiva.com/collections/basx-series/products/basx-a7-seven-channel-power-amplifier
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Thanks for the interventions, but nobody answered my question:
The emotiva stuff is great IMO. They're some of the better no-frills amps out there. These Bass-X ones are decent but a little under powered, compared to a receiver? Yeah they'll possibly be a bit better.
The thing is I don't really get what you're planning on doing. How will you handle D/A without your receiver? If you're thinking of using your sound card, I can absolutely say your receiver will work and sound far better. Are you hooked up via HDMI to your receiver and getting audio out that way? Does your receiver have pre-outs?
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This is like operating a race car. Many people do it with no issues. But the more you race the higher your risk. Race cars blow up and crash sometimes.
Do a web search on this topic (MC directly into power amps) and read the reports of people destroying tweeters or "almost blowing up my speakers", or "a deafening sound came out".
I would never do this and I have experience with Windows going back to 3.1 and DOS 4.X. Again, it can be done. Just like race cars can be operated without crashing or burning. But you should know the risks before you get into the race car.
Brian.
Agreed, this is a fantastic way to phrase it. That's why I always advocate for some sort of 'dumb' volume control (that's not susceptible to like crashing, or becoming unreachable) between the source and the amps.
I've been running a 'vm'd' version of an active DSP processor based for a little bit as a test. It's a super bare bones headless linux OS I setup that takes in audio over network, does some magic (TBD) and outputs the processed audio to an interface.
It's absolutely possible to do this but personally I'd be thinking carefully about the decision to go direct to amplification.
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The emotiva stuff is great IMO. They're some of the better no-frills amps out there. These Bass-X ones are decent but a little under powered, compared to a receiver? Yeah they'll possibly be a bit better.
The thing is I don't really get what you're planning on doing. How will you handle D/A without your receiver? If you're thinking of using your sound card, I can absolutely say your receiver will work and sound far better. Are you hooked up via HDMI to your receiver and getting audio out that way? Does your receiver have pre-outs?
Currently, as far as audio is concerned, I have directly connected the Essence ST + H6 sound card to the Onkyo NR708 as in my opinion it is much better than connecting with HDMI both in bitstreaming and without. The video card, on the other hand, is connected directly to the projector, via HDMI.
However, I have a doubt: by connecting the htpc directly to an amplifier, I can manage the volume from MC by setting the limiter and protection, but if for example I open a youtube video, will the volume be managed by window? Or can I have it managed by MC by setting the WDM?
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I was taking a look at this 7-channel amplifier from Emotiva: do you think it would be a good match with my Klipsch? Would I get a good improvement over my Onkyo NR 708 or would the difference be minimal because what matters is the preamp?
https://emotiva.com/collections/basx-series/products/basx-a7-seven-channel-power-amplifier
You don't say what Klipsch you have, but they are generally extremely efficient, often in the 100 db range. As such they take very little power to run. The typically problem with receivers is they have trouble driving inefficient speakers and speakers with widely varying impedance and phase angle. Some Klipsch fall into that category, despite their efficiency. Onkyo traditionally has been pretty good at handling 4 ohm loads, so may be OK if the impedance and phase angle are a problem. The Emotiva goes from 90 watts at 8 ohms to only 125 watts at 4 ohms with all channels driven, so it may not have a lot of reserve for low impedance systems. It does better with 2 channels driven, as expected. You would like it to go to 180 watts at 4 ohms, but that costs more money. My guess is that you would not hear much difference with the Emotiva amp, but the only way to tell is to try it.
If you are trying to improve the sound of 2 channel, then you could just try a better 2 channel power amp and use the receiver for the other channels. For surround sound, the front 3 channels are the most important so even a better 3 channel like the BaxX A3 (or 3 mono amps) may be an option, while using the Onkyo for the surrounds.
Emotiva has a 30 day return policy. So, it would only cost the shipping cost to try it.