INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 31 for Mac => Topic started by: dorianm on June 29, 2023, 10:26:00 am
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Some DSD files constantly buffer. Same files play fine on other players like Colibri. I've had to load only DSD 128 and below to avoid buffering issues.
So I'm forced to use two players, one for under 128 and one for over the 128 (Colibri).
Not sure what audio engine MC31 uses, but Colibri uses BASS, and I believe it sounds better and is way faster. But MC31's file management and interface is what I like about MC31, which Colibri is years behind on both.
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You may have limited bandwidth somewhere. Network or file storage.
You can use MC's DSP Studio > Output format to convert some formats to a lower resolution.
[Wiki]
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You may have limited bandwidth somewhere. Network or file storage.
You can use MC's DSP Studio > Output format to convert some formats to a lower resolution.
[Wiki]
I'm playing locally via SSD drives, straight thru SPDF unto the DAC.
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Does S/PDIF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF) involve a convertor?
I don't know what the limit is for S/PDIF.
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Hmmm, are you bitstreaming DSD? Not really sure if that works through S/PDIF (I don't think it does, but I could be wrong). Because if you're not using DSD bitstreaming, it's doing a DSD conversion with a PCM stage in the middle and that could and likely would be the cause of the buffering.
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD
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Oh, though, DSD512 likely can't be bitstreamed on macOS because macOS only supports DoP via CoreAudio and the majority of DoP-capable DACs don't support PCM sample rates high enough needed for DSD512 over DoP (DSD256 via DoP is usually the max supported on macOS and DoP). So in all likelihood it's converting it, and the Mac isn't fast enough to handle the DSD > PCM > DSD (or DSD > PCM) on-the-fly conversion, hence buffering issues. All DSD conversions go through a PCM step in the middle (which DSD to PCM or PCM to DSD is a lossy conversion), which is unavoidable.
DSD conversions (especially higher rate DSD and multichannel) are some of the most resource intensive tasks Media Center can do, and buffering during playback is an indication that the PC/Mac isn't powerful enough to handle it. You'd have to do all the conversions before playback and play those converted files in order to workaround this.
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Does S/PDIF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF) involve a convertor?
I don't know what the limit is for S/PDIF.
It can't be the SPDF, as I am able to play via the other app, Colibri at full res.
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Oh, though, DSD512 likely can't be bitstreamed on macOS because macOS only supports DoP via CoreAudio and the majority of DoP-capable DACs don't support PCM sample rates high enough needed for DSD512 over DoP (DSD256 via DoP is usually the max supported on macOS and DoP). So in all likelihood it's converting it, and the Mac isn't fast enough to handle the DSD > PCM > DSD (or DSD > PCM) on-the-fly conversion, hence buffering issues. All DSD conversions go through a PCM step in the middle (which DSD to PCM or PCM to DSD is a lossy conversion), which is unavoidable.
DSD conversions (especially higher rate DSD and multichannel) are some of the most resource intensive tasks Media Center can do, and buffering during playback is an indication that the PC/Mac isn't powerful enough to handle it. You'd have to do all the conversions before playback and play those converted files in order to workaround this.
So how is Colibri doing it? They use the BASS library and it seems to work flawlessly. I also encapsulate the files, which I can then play thru Apple's Music app. But of course I rather use MC because of the viewing options.
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Oh, though, DSD512 likely can't be bitstreamed on macOS because macOS only supports DoP via CoreAudio and the majority of DoP-capable DACs don't support PCM sample rates high enough needed for DSD512 over DoP (DSD256 via DoP is usually the max supported on macOS and DoP). So in all likelihood it's converting it, and the Mac isn't fast enough to handle the DSD > PCM > DSD (or DSD > PCM) on-the-fly conversion, hence buffering issues. All DSD conversions go through a PCM step in the middle (which DSD to PCM or PCM to DSD is a lossy conversion), which is unavoidable.
DSD conversions (especially higher rate DSD and multichannel) are some of the most resource intensive tasks Media Center can do, and buffering during playback is an indication that the PC/Mac isn't powerful enough to handle it. You'd have to do all the conversions before playback and play those converted files in order to workaround this.
I wasn't aware that DSD to PCM is a lossy conversion. So am I better off converting to FLAC 384? I paid premium for the DSDs, I'd like to hear them at their best resolution.
Thanks!
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Oh, though, DSD512 likely can't be bitstreamed on macOS because macOS only supports DoP via CoreAudio and the majority of DoP-capable DACs don't support PCM sample rates high enough needed for DSD512 over DoP (DSD256 via DoP is usually the max supported on macOS and DoP). So in all likelihood it's converting it, and the Mac isn't fast enough to handle the DSD > PCM > DSD (or DSD > PCM) on-the-fly conversion, hence buffering issues. All DSD conversions go through a PCM step in the middle (which DSD to PCM or PCM to DSD is a lossy conversion), which is unavoidable.
DSD conversions (especially higher rate DSD and multichannel) are some of the most resource intensive tasks Media Center can do, and buffering during playback is an indication that the PC/Mac isn't powerful enough to handle it. You'd have to do all the conversions before playback and play those converted files in order to workaround this.
It's also strange that I am playing a DSD512 right now on MC without issues. It did buffer before starting, but now it's playing flawlessly and the CPUs are at only 15%.
It seems to be only that album in particular. Not sure why. I will contact the vendor.
Thanks!
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google specs of SPDIF. There is a limit.
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It's high likely that you are not playing 512 DSD via SPD/IF (coaxial or optical digital cable). If your DAC has a readout, it should show what it is receiving.
MC for Mac only sends DoP DSD on Mac unless you have a very specific DAC with one of the only DSD drivers made for Mac. As far as I know there's only one company that makes a DSD driver for Mac for their DAC. All others use DoP.
Check the Audio Path in MC. Player > Audio Path
That will show you exactly what is coming in to MC and what MC is sending out. You will probably see PCM being sent out.
The conversion of DSD to PCM is not lossy like an MP3. Rather, it is a conversion between incompatible formats. DSD and be converted to PCM and back again, but the information is changed slightly along the way because the formats are not equivalent. In a strict sense, it's a "lossy" conversion, but the change is very mild. Lossy MP3s are an entirely different thing that are far more audible in terms of the information that is lost along the way.
"Converting to FLAC 384" is essentially the same thing as having MC send PCM to your DAC. FLAC uses a PCM representation.
Again, be sure to check the Audio Path and you'll see what's really going on.
Best of luck,
Brian.
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Does S/PDIF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF) involve a convertor?
I don't know what the limit is for S/PDIF.
No, it's straight out of the MacPro unto the DAC.
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It's high likely that you are not playing 512 DSD via SPD/IF (coaxial or optical digital cable). If your DAC has a readout, it should show what it is receiving.
MC for Mac only sends DoP DSD on Mac unless you have a very specific DAC with one of the only DSD drivers made for Mac. As far as I know there's only one company that makes a DSD driver for Mac for their DAC. All others use DoP.
Check the Audio Path in MC. Player > Audio Path
That will show you exactly what is coming in to MC and what MC is sending out. You will probably see PCM being sent out.
The conversion of DSD to PCM is not lossy like an MP3. Rather, it is a conversion between incompatible formats. DSD and be converted to PCM and back again, but the information is changed slightly along the way because the formats are not equivalent. In a strict sense, it's a "lossy" conversion, but the change is very mild. Lossy MP3s are an entirely different thing that are far more audible in terms of the information that is lost along the way.
"Converting to FLAC 384" is essentially the same thing as having MC send PCM to your DAC. FLAC uses a PCM representation.
Again, be sure to check the Audio Path and you'll see what's really going on.
Best of luck,
Brian.
A lot of great info there.
Well, indeed it is being downconverter to PCM (see screenshot).
So how exactly can I play DSD files without conversion?
Also, I am uploading a screenshot of MC using more than 90Gigs of RAM before I forced quit it.
Thanks!
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If you want to playback DSD without conversions, you have to bitstream DSD to your DAC, which I don't think you can via S/PDIF unfortunately. Usually it's done via USB or DLNA if it supports DSD-over-DLNA.
However, every DAC I've seen don't have PCM sample rates needed for DSD512 over DoP (which as mentioned several times is basically the only means of playing back DSD on macOS without conversion). This means if you're trying to playback DSD512 on macOS, the only way to do it is via conversion (which is always a lossy conversion with a PCM step in the middle).
If your DAC supports DSD512 via native DSD, you'd need to be using Windows and the ASIO driver from the DAC manufacturer to play it back (via USB, DLNA, etc.). Otherwise DSD512 conversion (to DSD256, DSD128, etc.) on macOS is unavoidable.
The wiki covers DSD stuff quite a bit: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD
I wasn't aware that DSD to PCM is a lossy conversion. So am I better off converting to FLAC 384? I paid premium for the DSDs, I'd like to hear them at their best resolution.
All conversions involving DSD in Media Center is a lossy conversion. DSD > PCM, PCM > DSD, DSD > DSD, all of them are lossy conversions and it's not possible to losslessly convert between PCM and DSD. The conversion has to go through a PCM step in the middle (as mentioned several times already), so in reality DSD to DSD conversions look like DSD > PCM > DSD. Like when converting DSD512 to DSD256, it'd be DSD512 > PCM > DSD256 which is unavoidable (and is a lossy conversion). My guess with Colibri playing it back is, it's doing the conversions in the background without informing you.
What DAC are you using? It should be simple to look up its capabilities.
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TOSLINK is even more restrictive than coax.
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If you want to playback DSD without conversions, you have to bitstream DSD to your DAC, which I don't think you can via S/PDIF unfortunately. Usually it's done via USB or DLNA if it supports DSD-over-DLNA.
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Yes, I just started using the "bitstream", and my DAC doesn't even support the native DSD, which I thought it did. But there are new version of quite inexpensive DACS that do support DSD512. But at this point, I don't even see the point, as I certainly use EQ on most songs. And that forces a DSD->PCM->DSD conversion and I just don't see the point to that.
Based on this video, I am not really sure I need any of it. A good FLAC at its highest rate is just as good for a human ear as any DSD.
There is a test at 20khz, which I didn't pass. Meaning my ears cannot hear the sound.
It's an interesting view and not to time consuming. Let me know if you watched it and what your thoughts are on chasing pure DSD.
Thanks, Dorian
https://youtu.be/-jCwIsT0X8M
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Again, for the majority of DACs on the market, on macOS using CoreAudio only DoP is supported and not native DSD, and I've never seen any DACs with a PCM sample rate of 1411.2 kHz which is required for DSD512 over DoP to work. As of right now, DSD256 is likely the limit on macOS for the majority of DACs out there. To do DSD512 via native DSD, you'd have to use Windows and use the DAC manufacturer's ASIO driver or a Linux distro using ALSA, assuming the Linux kernel has support for your DAC.
P.S. The whole thing about PCM vs. DSD which is better debate is a whole can of worms that can be... unpleasant dealing with when engaging with others. Personally, I'd say find and listen to whatever you like and sounds best to you. I also personally can't hear any difference between PCM or DSD, so I don't favor one or the other and listen to both. :)
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Under MC's Tools Menu, there's a Listening Test. You can ask MC to take a clip and convert it into multiple formats, then listen and rate each one. Almost nobody does it successfully. One person did once say that he got them all correct.
The point is that most people can't hear differences once you get to lossless or even close to it.
Instructions are here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=107924.0
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Under MC's Tools Menu, there's a Listening Test. You can ask MC to take a clip and convert it into multiple formats, then listen and rate each one. Almost nobody does it successfully. One person did once say that he got them all correct.
The point is that most people can't hear differences once you get to lossless or even close to it.
Instructions are here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=107924.0
I dig it. I tried it between a CD rip, aif, against a FLAC 384, and I liked the FLAC much more. The aif sounded dull, almost under a rap, while the FLAC sounded clear and more "there".
I just got a new DAC, should arrive tomorrow. I'll test to see if I can play DSD512 natively and see how it sounds against the aif and flags.
Thanks!!
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I'm playing locally via SSD drives, straight thru SPDF unto the DAC.
Considering that you are using SPDIF for output the whole conversation is very interesting.
The limit for SPDIF is 192/24 PCM.
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I just got a new DAC, should arrive tomorrow. I'll test to see if I can play DSD512 natively and see how it sounds against the aif and flags.
Just remember if you're using macOS, you're going to likely be limited to DSD256 and not be able to playback DSD512 without conversion due to the DoP limitation.
Also like AGAWA pointed out S/PDIF is definitely going to be a limiting factor here, it's recommended to connect the DAC to the PC/Mac directly via USB and use that as the audio output in Media Center, and not use S/PDIF which I assume is using the onboard DAC in the Mac for playback (and not really the DAC, since that's being fed via S/PDIF from the Mac's onboard audio output). Using USB from the Mac (or PC, whichever) to the DAC avoids that kind of thing, but you still can't really workaround the DSD512 DoP limitation on macOS.
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I dig it. I tried it between a CD rip, aif, against a FLAC 384, and I liked the FLAC much more. The aif sounded dull, almost under a rap, while the FLAC sounded clear and more "there".
Were you able to rank them correctly without looking to see what you were playing?
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Were you able to rank them correctly without looking to see what you were playing?
Haven't done it and won't be able to do it till Wednesday at the earliest. I'll update.
Thanks
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Were you able to rank them correctly without looking to see what you were playing?
I just got this from the manufacturer of the new DAC.
"Dear Dorian,
Thank you for choosing the SMSL D12 DAC. We understand that you have concerns regarding playing pure DSD audio through your MAC PRO when connected to the D12, as the MAC system only supports DOP256. Allow me to explain the situation in detail.
The latest versions of Apple's operating systems come with USB drivers that only support the PCM format. Additionally, the central audio processing engine of macOS, known as CoreAudio, also exclusively supports PCM internally. However, there is no limitation on the sampling frequency imposed by macOS, which is fortunate. Due to the architectural design of Apple's operating system, sound software developers are compelled to utilize CoreAudio as the standard format for all sound-related activities. Consequently, on the Mac platform, PCM is the primary format available. Nevertheless, it is worth noting that DoP (DSD over PCM) has now become the standard specification for DSD transmission. As long as both the Mac software and the USB DAC support DoP, it is possible to achieve DSD transmission.
On the other hand, Windows systems support ASIO drivers (unlike macOS), which provide support for both PCM and DSD formats without any restrictions on the sampling frequency or bit depth. Based on the information provided, the SMSL D12 indeed supports DSD up to DSD512.
However, the unfortunate limitation you are experiencing with DOP256 on the MAC system is a result of the constraints imposed by macOS itself. It's crucial to note that this limitation does not indicate any deficiency in the D12's capabilities but rather a restriction imposed by the macOS platform.
If you wish to fully experience DSD512, switching to a Windows system that supports ASIO drivers would be the ideal solution. We understand that this limitation may be disappointing for MAC users who are keen on higher DSD sample rates. Nevertheless, we want to assure you that the SMSL D12 DAC is fully capable of supporting DSD512 when used with a compatible system like Windows."
So based on this, Apple is the devil in disguise for HiFi Audio and there is no way to play DSD on the Mac without a conversion to DoP.
Is Linux the same? Or can Linux have the ASIO drivers with full PCM / DSD support?
Cause I really don't want to run windows.
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I just got this from the manufacturer of the new DAC.So based on this, Apple is the devil in disguise for HiFi Audio and there is no way to play DSD on the Mac without a conversion to DoP.
DSD-over-PCM (DoP) isn't a conversion, it's a data transport method. In simple terms it packs the DSD data in a PCM steam with a DoP header, which the DAC reconfigures as DSD and "unpacks" the data and plays it back as DSD. Furthermore the end result of DSD data delivered over DoP and native DSD is exactly the same, there's literally no difference besides the data transport being packed in PCM or direct.
It's just on macOS (CoreAudio) that DoP is the only option for DSD playback as Apple will likely never add native DSD support. The "downside" to DoP is that DoP depends on the PCM sample rates the DAC supports to determine what the maximum DSD it can support. Here's a little cheat sheet of DSD via DoP and the PCM sample rates the DAC would need to support.
DSD64 via DoP requires the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 176.4 kHz
DSD128 via DoP requires the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 352.8 kHz
DSD256 via DoP requires the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 705.6 kHz
Now, all the DACs I've seen only support DSD256 over DoP, requiring native DSD support (Windows or Linux if the kernel supports the DAC) for DSD512. But if higher sample rate DSD was currently possible via DoP, here's what that would look like...
DSD512 via DoP would require the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 1411.2 kHz
DSD1024 via DoP would require the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 2822.4 kHz
Regarding Linux, native DSD being supported depends on the DAC and if the Linux kernel has support for the DAC, otherwise you may be limited to DoP there too. Keep in mind, Linux has larger learning curves than Mac does, especially if you've never used Linux before. Would actually recommend using Windows over Linux if DSD512 is actually a priority here. I'm afraid it's going to have wider support here for native DSD with a ASIO driver. ASIO is Windows only (though a DAC manufacturer created its own proprietary ASIO driver for macOS). On Linux it goes through ALSA and as mentioned native DSD support depends if the Linux kernel being used has support for the DAC, if not then for DSD512 it's likely Windows only there.
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DSD-over-PCM (DoP) isn't a conversion, it's a data transport method. In simple terms it packs the DSD data in a PCM steam with a DoP header, which the DAC reconfigures as DSD and "unpacks" the data and plays it back as DSD. Furthermore the end result of DSD data delivered over DoP and native DSD is exactly the same, there's literally no difference besides the data transport being packed in PCM or direct.
It's just on macOS (CoreAudio) that DoP is the only option for DSD playback as Apple will likely never add native DSD support. The "downside" to DoP is that DoP depends on the PCM sample rates the DAC supports to determine what the maximum DSD it can support. Here's a little cheat sheet of DSD via DoP and the PCM sample rates the DAC would need to support.
DSD64 via DoP requires the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 176.4 kHz
DSD128 via DoP requires the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 352.8 kHz
DSD256 via DoP requires the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 705.6 kHz
Now, all the DACs I've seen only support DSD256 over DoP, requiring native DSD support (Windows or Linux if the kernel supports the DAC) for DSD512. But if higher sample rate DSD was currently possible via DoP, here's what that would look like...
DSD512 via DoP would require the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 1411.2 kHz
DSD1024 via DoP would require the DAC to support a PCM sample rate of 2822.4 kHz
Regarding Linux, native DSD being supported depends on the DAC and if the Linux kernel has support for the DAC, otherwise you may be limited to DoP there too. Keep in mind, Linux has larger learning curves than Mac does, especially if you've never used Linux before. Would actually recommend using Windows over Linux if DSD512 is actually a priority here. I'm afraid it's going to have wider support here for native DSD with a ASIO driver. ASIO is Windows only (though a DAC manufacturer created its own proprietary ASIO driver for macOS). On Linux it goes through ALSA and as mentioned native DSD support depends if the Linux kernel being used has support for the DAC, if not then for DSD512 it's likely Windows only there.
Great break down, I'm understanding this much better now.
Would emulating Windows work on a MacPro Intel with enough RAM?
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Great break down, I'm understanding this much better now.
Would emulating Windows work on a MacPro Intel with enough RAM?
Using Boot Camp? Should generally work fine for Intel-based Macs, yeah. If dual booting isn't desirable, then using software like Parallels to run virtualized Windows within macOS could be a way to go. I believe on Apple Silicon-based Macs, Parallels would likely be the only current solution as Boot Camp is no longer a thing.
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Using Boot Camp? Should generally work fine for Intel-based Macs, yeah. If dual booting isn't desirable, then using software like Parallels to run virtualized Windows within macOS could be a way to go. I believe on Apple Silicon-based Macs, Parallels would likely be the only current solution as Boot Camp is no longer a thing.
Ok, then! We have a solution! Thank you very much!
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Using Boot Camp? Should generally work fine for Intel-based Macs, yeah. If dual booting isn't desirable, then using software like Parallels to run virtualized Windows within macOS could be a way to go. I believe on Apple Silicon-based Macs, Parallels would likely be the only current solution as Boot Camp is no longer a thing.
Not it's stuttering, and I can't figure out why.
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I assume you're using Boot Camp? Is DSD bitstreaming enabled? ASIO driver for the DAC installed and being used as the audio output in MC? A screenshot of the audio path (https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path) during playback will likely help with this.
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I assume you're using Boot Camp? Is DSD bitstreaming enabled? ASIO driver for the DAC installed and being used as the audio output in MC? A screenshot of the audio path (https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path) during playback will likely help with this.
No, I haven't started the windows emulation yet. I made some changes to the playback, but I changed everything back to what it was, and it still stuttering.
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I assume you're using Boot Camp? Is DSD bitstreaming enabled? ASIO driver for the DAC installed and being used as the audio output in MC? A screenshot of the audio path (https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path) during playback will likely help with this.
I switch between the USB output of the computer and assign the same output in MC, but it continues to play thru the previous output. Very strange.
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I assume you're using Boot Camp? Is DSD bitstreaming enabled? ASIO driver for the DAC installed and being used as the audio output in MC? A screenshot of the audio path (https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path) during playback will likely help with this.
And it's doing it on both USB outputs. It's only doing it on dsf, Colibri plays without stutters.
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I assume you're using Boot Camp? Is DSD bitstreaming enabled? ASIO driver for the DAC installed and being used as the audio output in MC? A screenshot of the audio path (https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path) during playback will likely help with this.
and it can't play dsf via Bluetooth by auto resampling? Colibri can play the dsf files via BT.
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No, I haven't started the windows emulation yet. I made some changes to the playback, but I changed everything back to what it was, and it still stuttering.
If you're still trying to playback DSD512 in MC on macOS it has to convert it on-the-fly during playback and since DSD conversions in MC are resource intensive that's why it's stuttering (especially higher the sample rate DSD it is, and if it's stereo or multichannel audio). Simply put, it's stuttering during playback in MC because the Mac isn't fast enough to handle the on-the-fly conversion. Don't know what Colibri is doing, never heard of it/used it. It's very likely converting it to something, as there's no way any app could currently playback DSD512 on macOS without conversion with your DAC.
You're not going to be able to playback DSD512 on macOS without converting it, because your DAC doesn't support DSD512 via DoP. The limit for your DAC on macOS without conversion is DSD256 via DoP.
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and it can't play dsf via Bluetooth by auto resampling? Colibri can play the dsf files via BT.
It's probably converting it to PCM at 48 kHz. Most Bluetooth audio devices only support PCM at 48 kHz, and is very limiting to use as you can read in this article (https://darko.audio/2020/11/no-bluetooth-cannot-deliver-hi-res-audio/). Unless I'm mistaken (which I don't think I am) but DSD isn't supported natively over Bluetooth at all, so it has to be converted to PCM (and likely at 48 kHz), more than likely.
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If you're still trying to playback DSD512 in MC on macOS it has to convert it on-the-fly during playback and since DSD conversions in MC are resource intensive that's why it's stuttering (especially higher the sample rate DSD it is, and if it's stereo or multichannel audio). Simply put, it's stuttering during playback in MC because the Mac isn't fast enough to handle the on-the-fly conversion. Don't know what Colibri is doing, never heard of it/used it. It's very likely converting it to something, as there's no way any app could currently playback DSD512 on macOS without conversion with your DAC.
You're not going to be able to playback DSD512 on macOS without converting it, because your DAC doesn't support DSD512 via DoP. The limit for your DAC on macOS without conversion is DSD256 via DoP.
No, I've tried DSD64 and still happening. It wasn't doing it before. Before it just wouldn't play 512, but had no issues with lower ones. Now it's having an issue with all of them.
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No, I've tried DSD64 and still happening. It wasn't doing it before. Before it just wouldn't play 512, but had no issues with lower ones. Now it's having an issue with all of them.
Are you using DSD bitstreaming? If you're using DSP Studio > Output Format > Output Encoding set to a DSD option, it's converting everything to DSD (even DSD). Make sure Output Encoding is set to None, then go to MC's Options > Audio > Settings and set the Bitstreaming option to DSD. Also make sure you're using exclusive mode in the device settings under Audio Device.
If it's still not working, post a screenshot of the audio path during playback.
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Are you using DSD bitstreaming? If you're using DSP Studio > Output Format > Output Encoding set to a DSD option, it's converting everything to DSD (even DSD). Make sure Output Encoding is set to None, then go to MC's Options > Audio > Settings and set the Bitstreaming option to DSD. Also make sure you're using exclusive mode in the device settings under Audio Device.
If it's still not working, post a screenshot of the audio path during playback.
I have the Bit streaming set to none, because otherwise I get the DSD output error.
in the DSP Output Encoding I have it set to none as well.
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Are you using DSD bitstreaming? If you're using DSP Studio > Output Format > Output Encoding set to a DSD option, it's converting everything to DSD (even DSD). Make sure Output Encoding is set to None, then go to MC's Options > Audio > Settings and set the Bitstreaming option to DSD. Also make sure you're using exclusive mode in the device settings under Audio Device.
If it's still not working, post a screenshot of the audio path during playback.
And it's not really a stutter, it's like a clicking sound. And the CPU is not doing much. And now it's doing it with all files, including aif.
I'm giving up on this thing.
Is there a way to get a refund? This is an expensive piece of software and it's one issue after another.
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What error? Because DSD bitstreaming needs to be enabled or else MC is converting everything to PCM.
Screenshot of your MC Options > Audio would likely help too, to see what audio output is being used. Sounds like something is misconfigured somewhere.
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and it can't play dsf via Bluetooth by auto resampling? Colibri can play the dsf files via BT.
Apple implements AAC in BT
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What error? Because DSD bitstreaming needs to be enabled or else MC is converting everything to PCM.
Screenshot of your MC Options > Audio would likely help too, to see what audio output is being used. Sounds like something is misconfigured somewhere.
Well whatever it is doing, it's not good. If I am running Apple's Music app, and I turn on MC, Apple Music starts making the same noise. If I quit MC, the issue goes away.
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What error? Because DSD bitstreaming needs to be enabled or else MC is converting everything to PCM.
Screenshot of your MC Options > Audio would likely help too, to see what audio output is being used. Sounds like something is misconfigured somewhere.
I took out the auto watch music folder in the library manager, and the noise stopped.
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What error? Because DSD bitstreaming needs to be enabled or else MC is converting everything to PCM.
Screenshot of your MC Options > Audio would likely help too, to see what audio output is being used. Sounds like something is misconfigured somewhere.
The noise stopped on aif, but it's still there on dsf, no matter what resolution.
This app is not for working out. Is there a path to a refund?
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opencores is the spoiler???
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This app is not for working out. Is there a path to a refund?
No - Just like that Apple Product you are using MC with there is no guarantee that any Hardware, or Software, is capable of satisfying every Individuals Wants/Needs/Requirements
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Again, screenshots of all your audio settings under MC's Options > Audio and screenshots of the audio path during playback would likely help with figuring this out. A screenshot of DSP Studio > Output Format may help too. And you are connecting the DAC to the Mac via USB and not S/PDIF, right? Because DSD bitstreaming is not going to work via S/PDIF. And I wouldn't recommend blindly changing settings and whatnot trying to fix this, because it could mess with other things.
Though one setting you might try toggling the integer mode option under MC's Options > Audio > Device settings and see if that makes a difference.
Generally for DSD playback on macOS via bitstreaming, you also need to 1) make sure system volume (and internal volume in MC) is set to 100% or else you may just get noise and 2) you need to open the Audio MIDI Setup app in macOS and make sure it's set to the max sample rate available for your DAC.
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What error? Because DSD bitstreaming needs to be enabled or else MC is converting everything to PCM.
Screenshot of your MC Options > Audio would likely help too, to see what audio output is being used. Sounds like something is misconfigured somewhere.
It's really hard for Awesome Donkey to help if you don't follow his advice.
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No - Just like that Apple Product you are using MC with there is no guarantee that any Hardware, or Software, is capable of satisfying every Individuals Wants/Needs/Requirements
So noice and being unable to play music on a music player is an "individual need"?
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Again, screenshots of all your audio settings under MC's Options > Audio and screenshots of the audio path during playback would likely help with figuring this out. A screenshot of DSP Studio > Output Format may help too. And you are connecting the DAC to the Mac via USB and not S/PDIF, right? Because DSD bitstreaming is not going to work via S/PDIF. And I wouldn't recommend blindly changing settings and whatnot trying to fix this, because it could mess with other things.
Though one setting you might try toggling the integer mode option under MC's Options > Audio > Device settings and see if that makes a difference.
Generally for DSD playback on macOS via bitstreaming, you also need to 1) make sure system volume (and internal volume in MC) is set to 100% or else you may just get noise and 2) you need to open the Audio MIDI Setup app in macOS and make sure it's set to the max sample rate available for your DAC.
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Again, screenshots of all your audio settings under MC's Options > Audio and screenshots of the audio path during playback would likely help with figuring this out. A screenshot of DSP Studio > Output Format may help too. And you are connecting the DAC to the Mac via USB and not S/PDIF, right? Because DSD bitstreaming is not going to work via S/PDIF. And I wouldn't recommend blindly changing settings and whatnot trying to fix this, because it could mess with other things.
Though one setting you might try toggling the integer mode option under MC's Options > Audio > Device settings and see if that makes a difference.
Generally for DSD playback on macOS via bitstreaming, you also need to 1) make sure system volume (and internal volume in MC) is set to 100% or else you may just get noise and 2) you need to open the Audio MIDI Setup app in macOS and make sure it's set to the max sample rate available for your DAC.
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Again, screenshots of all your audio settings under MC's Options > Audio and screenshots of the audio path during playback would likely help with figuring this out. A screenshot of DSP Studio > Output Format may help too. And you are connecting the DAC to the Mac via USB and not S/PDIF, right? Because DSD bitstreaming is not going to work via S/PDIF. And I wouldn't recommend blindly changing settings and whatnot trying to fix this, because it could mess with other things.
Though one setting you might try toggling the integer mode option under MC's Options > Audio > Device settings and see if that makes a difference.
Generally for DSD playback on macOS via bitstreaming, you also need to 1) make sure system volume (and internal volume in MC) is set to 100% or else you may just get noise and 2) you need to open the Audio MIDI Setup app in macOS and make sure it's set to the max sample rate available for your DAC.
Right now I just want it to play without noise. I'm not using the bit streaming feature, I'm setting everything to default or "recommended" as the app says in the settings.
Since the default is changing dsd to pcm, and since I use the EQ, it should play without issues, just as Colibri does.
I'll check the MIDI set up, but since Colibri is playing without issues, I doubt that will be it. But I will try anyways.
Thanks
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Okay, now we're getting somewhere. First I have to ask, why in DSP Studio > Output Format > Sample rate do you have it set to resample everything below 44.1 kHz and 176.4 kHz and above to 96 kHz? The DAC you have can output up to 768 kHz so that's why I'm asking, it seems like a bit of a waste to be resampling here, not to mention resampling is a lossy conversion. As a test, you might set all of these to None (and uncheck Output Format in the main DSD Studio list on the left too, just in case).
Second, you'll need to enable exclusive mode under Device settings by checking the Open device with exclusive access option, as DSD bitstreaming otherwise won't work.
Third you can set Bitstreaming from None to Custom and in the Bitstreaming Formats window check the DSD box and set the drop down menu to Up to DSD256 (4x).
Audio Path here is interesting though. Strangely (and this is the confusing part for me) is the Downsample 8X for DSD to PCM conversion message. What's unclear to me is what does means, e.g. if it means you're converting DSD512 (aka 8x DSD) to PCM even though the input is a DSD64 track. Usually in that case it'd would make me think Output Encoding is set to DSDx8 but in the DSP Studio screenshot the option is set to None, so that's clearly not the case. Hopefully one of the devs can explain the Downsample 8X for DSD to PCM conversion message here, as I've never seen that one. Anyways beyond that part, in addition it's resampling from 358.8 kHz to 96 kHz, because like first mentioned DSP Studio > Output Format > Sample rate is set to convert to 358.8 kHz to 96 kHz.
Here's a list of recommendations in simple terms to try to get DSD bitstreaming without any conversions working:
1) Make sure both macOS' system volume and MC's internal volume is set to 100%. Looks like MC's internal volume is already set to 100%, can't tell system volume in the screenshots.
2) Open up the Audio MIDI Setup app in macOS, and set it to use the highest sample rate your DAC supports, which would be 768 kHz.
3) Enable exclusive mode in the Device settings by checking the Open device with exclusive access option, this is required for DSD bitstreaming.
4) Either uncheck Output Format in the DSP Studio list to disable it or go into DSP Studio > Output Format and set all Sample rates that are set to 96 kHz to None.
5) Enable DSD bitstreaming, by changing the Bitstreaming option to Custom then in the pop up window check DSD and set it to Up to DSD256 (4x).
6) This step is very important to pay attention to: Try playing back a DSD64 track. You won't be able to playback DSD512 without conversion, but it can and should be able to bitstream and playback DSD64 tracks without issue.
That should hopefully do it. During playback another screenshot of the Audio Path would be very helpful here to verify playback. Or if any errors occur, screenshots of those may help too.
Good luck! :)
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https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,135958.msg945255.html#msg945255
really no issues at all?
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https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,135958.msg945255.html#msg945255
really no issues at all?
On the MacBookPro the only issue is that the login screen doesn't support the full animation of the emoji, so the animation is white instead of showing the real emoji. Only the eyes are visible... lol.
On the MacPro, I purchased a USB PCIe card ($32) and a BT/Wifi Card ($50). Both plug and play, which enabled USB 1 and 3, plus Wifi and BT 4.0. I didn't actually needed them, because USB 1 would work with a USB 3.0 Hub. But I wanted BT, and that required the PCIe BT/WF card. I also needed to purchase a used Nvidia Force GTX 680 ($150) which has Metal 2 support. So a total of $232.
I also updated RAM with a new set of 32G (4x8g) sticks ($100). Now running with 44G of RAM. So for me it was $332 to update the machine.
I think it's worth it, as the closest machine would be the MacPro Cylinder, which run around $800.
But now it's running pretty good with full Metal support. Running two monitors and the LG 75" screen.
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Okay, now we're getting somewhere. First I have to ask, why in DSP Studio > Output Format > Sample rate do you have it set to resample everything below 44.1 kHz and 176.4 kHz and above to 96 kHz? The DAC you have can output up to 768 kHz so that's why I'm asking, it seems like a bit of a waste to be resampling here, not to mention resampling is a lossy conversion. As a test, you might set all of these to None (and uncheck Output Format in the main DSD Studio list on the left too, just in case).
...
Awesome post.
But I just noticed that on the MIDI setup, the SMSL shows only 96khz. I just contacted them to see why that is.
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Okay, now we're getting somewhere. First I have to ask, why in DSP Studio > Output Format > Sample rate do you have it set to resample everything below 44.1 kHz and 176.4 kHz and above to 96 kHz? The DAC you have can output up to 768 kHz so that's why I'm asking, it seems like a bit of a waste to be resampling here, not to mention resampling is a lossy conversion. As a test, you might set all of these to None (and uncheck Output Format in the main DSD Studio list on the left too, just in case).
Second, you'll need to enable exclusive mode under Device settings by checking the Open device with exclusive access option, as DSD bitstreaming otherwise won't work.
Third you can set Bitstreaming from None to Custom and in the Bitstreaming Formats window check the DSD box and set the drop down menu to Up to DSD256 (4x).
Audio Path here is interesting though. Strangely (and this is the confusing part for me) is the Downsample 8X for DSD to PCM conversion message. What's unclear to me is what does means, e.g. if it means you're converting DSD512 (aka 8x DSD) to PCM even though the input is a DSD64 track. Usually in that case it'd would make me think Output Encoding is set to DSDx8 but in the DSP Studio screenshot the option is set to None, so that's clearly not the case. Hopefully one of the devs can explain the Downsample 8X for DSD to PCM conversion message here, as I've never seen that one. Anyways beyond that part, in addition it's resampling from 358.8 kHz to 96 kHz, because like first mentioned DSP Studio > Output Format > Sample rate is set to convert to 358.8 kHz to 96 kHz.
Here's a list of recommendations in simple terms to try to get DSD bitstreaming without any conversions working:
1) Make sure both macOS' system volume and MC's internal volume is set to 100%. Looks like MC's internal volume is already set to 100%, can't tell system volume in the screenshots.
2) Open up the Audio MIDI Setup app in macOS, and set it to use the highest sample rate your DAC supports, which would be 768 kHz.
3) Enable exclusive mode in the Device settings by checking the Open device with exclusive access option, this is required for DSD bitstreaming.
4) Either uncheck Output Format in the DSP Studio list to disable it or go into DSP Studio > Output Format and set all Sample rates that are set to 96 kHz to None.
5) Enable DSD bitstreaming, by changing the Bitstreaming option to Custom then in the pop up window check DSD and set it to Up to DSD256 (4x).
6) This step is very important to pay attention to: Try playing back a DSD64 track. You won't be able to playback DSD512 without conversion, but it can and should be able to bitstream and playback DSD64 tracks without issue.
That should hopefully do it. During playback another screenshot of the Audio Path would be very helpful here to verify playback. Or if any errors occur, screenshots of those may help too.
Good luck! :)
Is there a way to turn off the popups that show while hovering over a file? Or at least change when they show?
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But I just noticed that on the MIDI setup, the SMSL shows only 96khz. I just contacted them to see why that is.
Okay, that's really strange. Yeah, hopefully SMSL has the answer on that one.
Is there a way to turn off the popups that show while hovering over a file? Or at least change when they show?
Tooltips? MC's Options > Tree & View > Show tooltips option has different options including turning them off.
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Okay, that's really strange. Yeah, hopefully SMSL has the answer on that one.
Tooltips? MC's Options > Tree & View > Show tooltips option has different options including turning them off.
Found it. Thanks.
So on my MacBook, the EQ shows perfectly. So the issue is with having multiple monitors.
One screenshot is the laptop, the other the LGTV, on the MacPro. And it shows the same on any of the monitors of the MacPro.
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Okay, that's really strange. Yeah, hopefully SMSL has the answer on that one.
Tooltips? MC's Options > Tree & View > Show tooltips option has different options including turning them off.
Another issue is the amount of CPU it takes. Apple's Music and Colibri use up about 15%, while MC runs between 40-100+%.
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Another issue is the amount of CPU it takes. Apple's Music and Colibri use up about 15%, while MC runs between 40-100+%.
Whatever you're doing with the other program, it's probably not the same so comparisons won't help.
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Whatever you're doing with the other program, it's probably not the same so comparisons won't help.
Well they are all 3 the same thing, music programs. Apple's Music, is well, a music player, and so is Colibri. Not sure what MC is doing that needs 100+ of the CPU.
It does it on my tower and on the laptop.
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If it's during playback, check the Audio Path as there's probably resampling/converting happening. That can be system resource demanding, depending.
MC works a bit differently than apps like Apple Music, so it's an apples to oranges comparison. They all may be similar that they're music players, under the hood that's a different story.
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Audio Path here is interesting though. Strangely (and this is the confusing part for me) is the Downsample 8X for DSD to PCM conversion message.
I believe this means that the DSD rate of 2.822 GHz is being divided by 8 to get to 352.8 MHz. "Downsample 8X".
5) Enable DSD bitstreaming, by changing the Bitstreaming option to Custom then in the pop up window check DSD and set it to Up to DSD256 (4x).
I don't think we want to do that for this customer. He uses EQ for everything. Which means that MC would have to do DSD to PCM, then do EQ, and then do output format back to DSD. Or maybe his EQ would be bypassed? Either way, he's said several times that EQ is "always on" for him so bitstreaming DSD doesn't make sense for him. Particularly with machines that are more than 10 years old.
Brian.
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I believe this means that the DSD rate of 2.822 GHz is being divided by 8 to get to 352.8 MHz. "Downsample 8X".
Ahh, okay, makes sense. I've never encountered that one, as I don't convert DSD to PCM. It's a bit iffy terminology IMO as it can be easily confused with 8xDSD, but will make a note of that for the future, thanks.
I don't think we want to do that for this customer. He uses EQ for everything. Which means that MC would have to do DSD to PCM, then do EQ, and then do output format back to DSD. Or maybe his EQ would be bypassed? Either way, he's said several times that EQ is "always on" for him so bitstreaming DSD doesn't make sense for him. Particularly with machines that are more than 10 years old.
Oh, you're right, if EQ is required then bitstreaming anything in general is a no-go, as bitstreaming bypasses all DSP. In which case there'd be no choice but to either convert DSD to PCM and play that back or use DSP Studio > Output Format > Output Encoding to 1xDSD, 2xDSD or 4xDSD and convert everything to DSD. Either way it's going to be a resource intensive on-the-fly conversion, especially on an older Mac so there's probably going to be glitches and whatnot during playback. I assume since MC is using 40 to 100% usage it might be an older dual core or quad core Mac or something like that?
What model and year Mac is it? You might try running the running the benchmark (Help menu > Benchmark) and posting the results here.
Things to note if you want to not bitstream DSD and using things like EQ...
- To have EQ with DSD, you have to convert it to PCM (then from there you can either play it back as PCM or convert that back to DSD, so two conversions for the latter) and it's going to be very resource intensive.
- DSD to PCM conversions are always lossy conversions. As are PCM to DSD conversions and DSD to DSD conversions, because they always go through PCM in the middle so it's DSD > PCM > DSD. If bit-perfect audio output is a concern (which I'm guessing it's not, because having EQ and things like volume leveling/peak level normalization makes the output not bit-perfect anymore due to modification).
- If it's a pretty old Mac, it's likely not going to be able to handle the on-the-fly conversion regardless if it's DSD to PCM or DSD to DSD (or PCM to DSD) and you're likely going to have issues with playback like buffering.
You might find it easier to just avoid DSD completely honestly (you're not really missing anything, IMO, as I can't hear any differences between PCM and DSD), if it can't handle any of the on-the-fly conversions.
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I believe this means that the DSD rate of 2.822 GHz is being divided by 8 to get to 352.8 MHz. "Downsample 8X".
I don't think we want to do that for this customer. He uses EQ for everything. Which means that MC would have to do DSD to PCM, then do EQ, and then do output format back to DSD. Or maybe his EQ would be bypassed? Either way, he's said several times that EQ is "always on" for him so bitstreaming DSD doesn't make sense for him. Particularly with machines that are more than 10 years old.
Brian.
Interesting.
Can I just ask what the age of the machine does to the audio? It's the latest OS, and there are 8 cores. I'm just curious.
Thanks
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Age determines performance, regardless of the number of cores a machine has. The newer the CPU is in the machine, the better the single-threaded and multi-threaded performance is versus previous generations of hardware due to generational IPC improvements (and other things like new fabrication processes, instruction sets supported, etc.). Number of cores with older CPUs don't really matter in my opinion, max core clock and single-threaded performance would matter the most generally. Conversions in Media Center, especially anything to do with DSD, are some of the most resource intensive tasks Media Center does. And if the CPU is old in the machine, it's going to not perform as well when doing that and you'll have issues like buffering during playback because the machine simply can't handle it due to the CPU bottleneck. Things like RAM or GPU won't matter here either, it's the CPU that does matter.
Like I said, the benchmark in MC would give a better idea what the machine's performance is. Also what CPU does the Mac have and how old is the Mac? It'd be pretty easy to do a comparison against newer CPUs like Intel, AMD or even Apple Silicon.
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Age determines performance,
No comment.
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Age determines performance, regardless of the number of cores a machine has. The newer the CPU is in the machine, the better the single-threaded and multi-threaded performance is versus previous generations of hardware due to generational IPC improvements (and other things like new fabrication processes, instruction sets supported, etc.). Number of cores with older CPUs don't really matter in my opinion, max core clock and single-threaded performance would matter the most generally. Conversions in Media Center, especially anything to do with DSD, are some of the most resource intensive tasks Media Center does. And if the CPU is old in the machine, it's going to not perform as well when doing that and you'll have issues like buffering during playback because the machine simply can't handle it due to the CPU bottleneck. Things like RAM or GPU won't matter here either, it's the CPU that does matter.
Like I said, the benchmark in MC would give a better idea what the machine's performance is. Also what CPU does the Mac have and how old is the Mac? It'd be pretty easy to do a comparison against newer CPUs like Intel, AMD or even Apple Silicon.
I'll do the comparison in a few mins. It has 2 quad core Intel Xeon E5462 processors.
I'm really a bit confused on this because the other app, Colibri, plays all the same songs with 15%CPU, and as was previously mentioned, Colibri MUST be doing the same conversions due to the nature of the Mac OS/Harware limitations.
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Colibri MUST be doing the same conversions
Doubtful. We don't know what it's starting with or converting to.
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Doubtful. We don't know what it's starting with or converting to.
It's playing the same DSD files thru the same computer, and the same DAC.
There are only a couple of choice the app can do, play DSD directly, which can't do for the same reasons MC can't do, or convert to PCM or DoP, right?
So it's doing the exact same thing as MC, but with no buffering issues, stuttering issues, or CPU issues, and I have to tell you, it sounds better than MC.
How do I run the Benchmark? NEVER Mind, I found it. I'll run it now.
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It's playing the same DSD files thru the same computer, and the same DAC.
There are only a couple of choice the app can do, play DSD directly, which can't do for the same reasons MC can't do, or convert to PCM or DoP, right?
So it's doing the exact same thing as MC, but with no buffering issues, stuttering issues, or CPU issues, and I have to tell you, it sounds better than MC.
How do I run the Benchmark? NEVER Mind, I found it. I'll run it now.
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 4.070 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 2.846 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 1.340 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 0.986 seconds
Score: 2056
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 3.715 seconds
Flood filling... 2.102 seconds
Direct copying... 2.092 seconds
Small renders... 1.781 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 1.178 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 2.900 seconds
Score: 1598
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0.340 seconds
Populate database... 2.292 seconds
Save database... 0.303 seconds
Reload database... 0.140 seconds
Search database... 3.428 seconds
Sort database... 1.620 seconds
Group database... 1.681 seconds
Score: 2193
JRMark (version 31.0.29 64 bit): 1949
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The Xeon E5462 is 15 years old now (and was discontinued 13 years ago) and it likely can't handle the DSD conversions in Media Center on the fly. I wouldn't be surprised if the lowest end modern Core-i3s easily outperform that Xeon CPU now.
How are you running the latest macOS on such an old Mac? It's long been dropped from support by Apple. I'm guessing one of the installer/updater hacks? Or something like using Clover/OpenCore to boot it which basically makes it into a sudo-Hackintosh (or Hack-A-Mac)? Either way it's not going to be a good experience these days, especially DSD conversions.
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=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 4.070 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 2.846 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 1.340 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 0.986 seconds
Score: 2056
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 3.715 seconds
Flood filling... 2.102 seconds
Direct copying... 2.092 seconds
Small renders... 1.781 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 1.178 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 2.900 seconds
Score: 1598
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0.340 seconds
Populate database... 2.292 seconds
Save database... 0.303 seconds
Reload database... 0.140 seconds
Search database... 3.428 seconds
Sort database... 1.620 seconds
Group database... 1.681 seconds
Score: 2193
JRMark (version 31.0.29 64 bit): 1949
As expected, not really that great these days. For reference the Orange Pi 5B ARM-based SoC I run 24/7 has a score nearly double that.
Basically it can't handle Media Center's DSD conversions. I doubt PCM or DSD to DSD64 conversions would play correctly and would likely buffer too.
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As expected, not really that great these days. For reference the Orange Pi 5B ARM-based SoC I run 24/7 has a score nearly double that.
Basically it can't handle Media Center's DSD conversions. I doubt PCM or DSD to DSD64 conversions would play correctly and would likely buffer too.
Ok, and so how is Colibri playing the exact same media, the same DSD files?
What options does Colibri have to play the exact same files?
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You'd have to ask Colibri, I've never heard of it or used it so I can't comment on what it's doing. My guess would be a conversion, but to what or how it does it I couldn't tell you.
Again, it's an apples to oranges comparison.
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You'd have to ask Colibri, I've never heard of it or used it so I can't comment on what it's doing. My guess would be a conversion, but to what or how it does it I couldn't tell you.
Again, it's an apples to oranges comparison.
I've spoken to the dev. at Colibri, he uses the Bass Library. The only difference between the two apps, is that MC has a GUI, but they both have to handle the same files, and Bass seems to handle them extremely efficiently.
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2,000 is a fairly low score. Most recent machines are above 4,000 and some above 8,000.
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,54396.350.html
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and I'm sure there are super computers that are into the 1,000,000,000,000. Why would I need anything above 1,000 to play a song? DSD, DSF, or any other type?
Again, if Colibri can do it, why can't MC?
Computers with that much power are built for heavy development or work. Not for playing a song.
I just got a Trial with AudirvanaOrigin_2.3.4 and the CPU is at 4%! No issues with playback on any track. DSD512? No problem.
I have no idea what MC does, but it might have something to do with other apps running while playing. Audirvana goes up to more than 100% if another app is in the foreground.
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In that screenshot Audirvana is converting the DSD512 track to 88.2 kHz PCM.
Media Center has its own implementations for things like encoding and resampling, so it doesn't use libraries like BASS. That said, Media Center does include an option to use the SoX resampler instead, which you can try enabling in Media Center (MC's Options > Audio > check Use SoX for resampling) and see if that makes any difference but don't be surprised if it doesn't make any changes to the resource usage for the on-the-fly conversions.
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I don't have any DSD higher than "regular" (DSD 64). I just played a song and watched Activity Monitor for a little while. MC takes between 7 and 43% of one CPU decoding DSD 64 into PCM on my system (M1 Mac mini). I tried with Sox and SSRC. Both took the same amount of CPU.
I've been collecting music for more than 30 years. My digital collection comes mostly from my physical collection of CDs. There are a few exceptions here and there. I only have a couple of DSD albums. If I lost all of the DSD it wouldn't bother me.
Our new customer is frustrated because he's trying to play music that seems like it should not be a problem, but with MC, on his system, it's not all that easy. MC's handling of DSD isn't exactly easy to comprehend. I have tried to help a little and AD has tried also.
To "Dorianm": I feel your frustration. Perhaps you should decide how important DSD playback is to you in terms of your entire collection. Is this a must have feature? DSD has a comparatively tiny number of titles. You have said that you like to use EQ on everything, which means you will never hear DSD as DSD. That's a fair thing to want (EQ). But do you really want or need DSD at that point? There are many wonderful titles available in more conventional formats.
MC offers some features that no other player does. Most of these features relate to managing your media collection. The Views system in MC is uniquely powerful. You can really do a lot to visualize and organize your collection the way you want to see it presented.
All of that said, given your experience with your older than average Macs, it's possible that MC just isn't a good fit for you. I hope you stay and enjoy MC. Listening to music, collecting it, learning about it.. all of these things are supposed to be enjoyable.
Either way you go, I wish you luck with your music collection.
Brian.
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I don't have any DSD higher than "regular" (DSD 64). I just played a song and watched Activity Monitor for a little while. MC takes between 7 and 43% of one CPU decoding DSD 64 into PCM on my system (M1 Mac mini). I tried with Sox and SSRC. Both took the same amount of CPU.
I've been collecting music for more than 30 years. My digital collection comes mostly from my physical collection of CDs. There are a few exceptions here and there. I only have a couple of DSD albums. If I lost all of the DSD it wouldn't bother me.
Our new customer is frustrated because he's trying to play music that seems like it should not be a problem, but with MC, on his system, it's not all that easy. MC's handling of DSD isn't exactly easy to comprehend. I have tried to help a little and AD has tried also.
To "Dorianm": I feel your frustration. Perhaps you should decide how important DSD playback is to you in terms of your entire collection. Is this a must have feature? DSD has a comparatively tiny number of titles. You have said that you like to use EQ on everything, which means you will never hear DSD as DSD. That's a fair thing to want (EQ). But do you really want or need DSD at that point? There are many wonderful titles available in more conventional formats.
MC offers some features that no other player does. Most of these features relate to managing your media collection. The Views system in MC is uniquely powerful. You can really do a lot to visualize and organize your collection the way you want to see it presented.
All of that said, given your experience with your older than average Macs, it's possible that MC just isn't a good fit for you. I hope you stay and enjoy MC. Listening to music, collecting it, learning about it.. all of these things are supposed to be enjoyable.
Either way you go, I wish you luck with your music collection.
Brian.
You guys won't believe it, but I just found out why MC was taking up all the CPU. BAD RAM. I had just purchased 32Gigs and the fans were often going up way past what they used to. I ordered a new set from a different vendor and the CPU is non existen. I barely notice it and the fans are so quiet I had to get close to the machine to hear them.
So there it is, RAM! Unreal
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I don't have any DSD higher than "regular" (DSD 64). I just played a song and watched Activity Monitor for a little while. MC takes between 7 and 43% of one CPU decoding DSD 64 into PCM on my system (M1 Mac mini). I tried with Sox and SSRC. Both took the same amount of CPU.
I've been collecting music for more than 30 years. My digital collection comes mostly from my physical collection of CDs. There are a few exceptions here and there. I only have a couple of DSD albums. If I lost all of the DSD it wouldn't bother me.
Our new customer is frustrated because he's trying to play music that seems like it should not be a problem, but with MC, on his system, it's not all that easy. MC's handling of DSD isn't exactly easy to comprehend. I have tried to help a little and AD has tried also.
To "Dorianm": I feel your frustration. Perhaps you should decide how important DSD playback is to you in terms of your entire collection. Is this a must have feature? DSD has a comparatively tiny number of titles. You have said that you like to use EQ on everything, which means you will never hear DSD as DSD. That's a fair thing to want (EQ). But do you really want or need DSD at that point? There are many wonderful titles available in more conventional formats.
MC offers some features that no other player does. Most of these features relate to managing your media collection. The Views system in MC is uniquely powerful. You can really do a lot to visualize and organize your collection the way you want to see it presented.
All of that said, given your experience with your older than average Macs, it's possible that MC just isn't a good fit for you. I hope you stay and enjoy MC. Listening to music, collecting it, learning about it.. all of these things are supposed to be enjoyable.
Either way you go, I wish you luck with your music collection.
Brian.
Yes, I like the way that MC is able to zoom to past 200% on the GUI, it makes it very convenient on a big screen where everyone can read the titles. Now with the low CPU loads, it's a no brainer, I'm staying with MC as my main music app. As for the EQ, I'm at the point that I like clarity more than anything, BUT, there are definitely some albums that where mixed down with either too little bass or not enough highs, like Toys in the Attic by Aerosmith, where I would most likely need an EQ.
But I've been really testing songs without the EQ and just trying the aif vs the dsd and there is definitely a difference. The aif sounds thin. Sometimes the symbals are almost distorted, like cartoonish. While the dsd, or flac 192s sound natural, even without EQ.
So the EQ is something that for the first time, I'm thinking over twice.
I have over 300 CDs, but I am purchasing my favorite ones from either hdTracks or NativeDSD.
The DAC I have is temporary, and I'll probably put it in one of the rooms after I purchase one on par with the new EVERSOLO and a streamer. But that will be in about a year and it will be in Colombia, where I hope to build a retirement home.
Then the walls will shake... lol
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I don't have any DSD higher than "regular" (DSD 64). I just played a song and watched Activity Monitor for a little while. MC takes between 7 and 43% of one CPU decoding DSD 64 into PCM on my system (M1 Mac mini). I tried with Sox and SSRC. Both took the same amount of CPU.
I've been collecting music for more than 30 years. My digital collection comes mostly from my physical collection of CDs. There are a few exceptions here and there. I only have a couple of DSD albums. If I lost all of the DSD it wouldn't bother me.
Our new customer is frustrated because he's trying to play music that seems like it should not be a problem, but with MC, on his system, it's not all that easy. MC's handling of DSD isn't exactly easy to comprehend. I have tried to help a little and AD has tried also.
To "Dorianm": I feel your frustration. Perhaps you should decide how important DSD playback is to you in terms of your entire collection. Is this a must have feature? DSD has a comparatively tiny number of titles. You have said that you like to use EQ on everything, which means you will never hear DSD as DSD. That's a fair thing to want (EQ). But do you really want or need DSD at that point? There are many wonderful titles available in more conventional formats.
MC offers some features that no other player does. Most of these features relate to managing your media collection. The Views system in MC is uniquely powerful. You can really do a lot to visualize and organize your collection the way you want to see it presented.
All of that said, given your experience with your older than average Macs, it's possible that MC just isn't a good fit for you. I hope you stay and enjoy MC. Listening to music, collecting it, learning about it.. all of these things are supposed to be enjoyable.
Either way you go, I wish you luck with your music collection.
Brian.
and to all who jumped on this conversation and helped me out, THANK YOU!
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don't give up. I use 2014 Mac Mini 8 GB Monterey to play ISO SACD's in Multichannel with no problems at all.
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don't give up. I use 2014 Mac Mini 8 GB Monterey to play ISO SACD's in Multichannel with no problems at all.
I'll most likely load linux next year on this one and a MacPro Cylinder that I want to get and use for the entertainment room.
I have to get a new laptop no matter what, because my current MacBook can't load the storyboard on the Xcode any longer. That's one thing I hate about Apple. Making machines obsolete for no reason. The machine can easily run Xcode, but they change something in the OS to force us to get new machines before it's due.
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The DAC I have is temporary, and I'll probably put it in one of the rooms after I purchase one on par with the new EVERSOLO and a streamer.
I would advise against getting a streamer. Network based audio is more complex; particularly with DSD. Stick with a normal USB DAC and things will be easier.
Brian.
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I would advise against getting a streamer. Network based audio is more complex; particularly with DSD. Stick with a normal USB DAC and things will be easier.
Brian.
But then I have to run linux or windows to get the full DSD512, right?
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In that screenshot Audirvana is converting the DSD512 track to 88.2 kHz PCM.
Media Center has its own implementations for things like encoding and resampling, so it doesn't use libraries like BASS. That said, Media Center does include an option to use the SoX resampler instead, which you can try enabling in Media Center (MC's Options > Audio > check Use SoX for resampling) and see if that makes any difference but don't be surprised if it doesn't make any changes to the resource usage for the on-the-fly conversions.
Any possibility of a cell app as Audirvana has? It makes a huge difference in usability.
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I'll most likely load linux next year on this one and a MacPro Cylinder that I want to get and use for the entertainment room.
You may want to reconsider purchasing a MacPro Cylinder - since they use the same obsolete generation of Xeon processor as your current PC and can't be updated to use a Newer Operating System.
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You may want to reconsider purchasing a MacPro Cylinder - since they use the same obsolete generation of Xeon processor as your current PC and can't be updated to use a Newer Operating System.
But it can run Linux and/or Windows and therefore process DSD512, right?
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You could read about remote on our Wiki.
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Only a person who has owned a MacPro Cylinder would be able to answer your questions, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of your problems with DSD512 are being caused by the processor. Which unfortunately could result in you encountering the self-same problems/restrictions regardless of the OS being used.
Personally I'd purchase M1 or M2 Mac Mini, safe in the knowledge that neither of those 2 are likely to be declared "Obsolete" in the foreseeable future.
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The advantage to using Windows is, it'd allow the DAC's ASIO driver to be used and native DSD512 support to work, so no more need or conversions.
It may or may not work in Linux, it all depends if the Linux kernel has support for your DAC or not. Windows in this case would be the 'sure bet', so to speak.
Any possibility of a cell app as Audirvana has? It makes a huge difference in usability.
Like Jim said, the remote Wiki page has info on this. But in a nutshell there's apps like JRemote for iOS, JRemote2 for Android and there's Panel which works in a web browser.
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If you want to run Windows, buy a machine specifically for Windows. Don't buy a Mac to run windows. Especially something as specialized as a MacPro. Run MacOS on Mac hardware. Run Windows on general purpose PC hardware, preferably with cards that you have researched to insure maximum compatibility with Windows and the programs you want to use.
A MacPro cylinder was a weird machine when it was released. Now it's an obsolete weird machine. The M1 and M2 based Macs are the future. They perform very well and are available at rather low prices. I would wager that the entry level M2 mini would outperform your current machines, and the MacPro by a pretty far margin. For reference the JMark score on my M1 mini is little over 7700 .
Brian.
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The advantage to using Windows is, it'd allow the DAC's ASIO driver to be used and native DSD512 support to work, so no more need or conversions.
It may or may not work in Linux, it all depends if the Linux kernel has support for your DAC or not. Windows in this case would be the 'sure bet', so to speak.
Like Jim said, the remote Wiki page has info on this. But in a nutshell there's apps like JRemote for iOS, JRemote2 for Android and there's Panel which works in a web browser.
Thanks, I got the Remote for iOS. Looks good, crashed once. No EQ. But not bad.
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Thanks, I got the Remote for iOS. Looks good, crashed once. No EQ. But not bad.
Hi, I read up on the manual for this DAC I am using and it's max on USB is 96, but on SPD it's 192, but when I change everything on the settings to output 192, then play a song, it keeps reverting the settings to 96.
If I don't play a song, I can go back to settings and it still shows 192. It's after I play that it changes everything back to 96.
Any ideas?
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Stated specs aren't always accurate.
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Hi, I read up on the manual for this DAC I am using and it's max on USB is 96, but on SPD it's 192, but when I change everything on the settings to output 192, then play a song, it keeps reverting the settings to 96.
You seem to be discussing USB versus SPD/IF interfaces on some DAC. The only DAC you've mentioned is the SMSL D12. That DAC does not have SPD/IF. Just USB and BlueTooth. What DAC do you mean? How are you connected to it?
Brian.
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I assume the S/PDIF port from the Mac itself? If so, that'd be using the Mac's built-in DAC for audio, and not an external DAC.
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I assume the S/PDIF port from the Mac itself? If so, that'd be using the Mac's built-in DAC for audio, and not an external DAC.
Not really. DAC means Digital to Analog Converter. SPD/IF is digital, not analog, so there's no DAC involved.
From an MC perspective, the device that it talks to is the Mac's SPD/IF port. So MC would only "see" the SPD/IF device and not the DAC at the other end. So I can see why you would say this, but it's not exactly accurate. The DAC at the other end still does the work of D to A Conversion.
Brian.
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Hi, I read up on the manual for this DAC I am using and it's max on USB is 96, but on SPD it's 192, but when I change everything on the settings to output 192, then play a song, it keeps reverting the settings to 96.
If I don't play a song, I can go back to settings and it still shows 192. It's after I play that it changes everything back to 96.
Any ideas?
What's SPD?
Anyway if you turn on logging, MC will give a very detailed log of the device open and it's capabilities.
Also, if you don't want MC to automatically change the sample rate on playback failure, you can disable that in MC's options.
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You seem to be discussing USB versus SPD/IF interfaces on some DAC. The only DAC you've mentioned is the SMSL D12. That DAC does not have SPD/IF. Just USB and BlueTooth. What DAC do you mean? How are you connected to it?
Brian.
Now I am using the AIYIMA;
https://www.amazon.com/AIYIMA-Bluetooth-Amplifier-Channel-Digital/dp/B09MLPC8X3/ref=asc_df_B09MLPC8X3/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=564682808121&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10235990194661597064&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030984&hvtargid=pla-1600054409886&psc=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwlJimBhAsEiwA1hrp5gmY_uLpIDMrOR93HSKVvklItVQmsswzCw5MFvzJMNNsx8JEDHtdfhoCrB8QAvD_BwE
It's temporary until I get my system and get the Eversolo.
https://www.eversolo.com/Product/index/model/DMP-A6/target/7abWHw%2B%2BoHhKKmVViAFMcQ%3D%3D.html
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I would advise against getting a streamer. Network based audio is more complex; particularly with DSD. Stick with a normal USB DAC and things will be easier.
Brian.
Hi,
What do you think about this?
https://www.eversolo.com/Product/index/model/DMP-A6/target/7abWHw%2B%2BoHhKKmVViAFMcQ%3D%3D.html
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What do you think about this?
https://www.eversolo.com/Product/index/model/DMP-A6/target/7abWHw%2B%2BoHhKKmVViAFMcQ%3D%3D.html
I can't really tell what your goals are. I'm not sure what is important to you. You seem very, very focused on DSD and especially DSD512. I think you have already decided that you want a streamer.
You asked for my opinion, so here it is:
DSD is mostly a waste of time. It's complicated in many ways. For me the complexity does not pay off in terms of sound quality. Yes, some DSD has an interesting "something" to it that sounds good. But there are very few titles available on DSD that I'm interested in. My musical tastes are wide ranging, but there's only a little bit of classical or modern jazz in my catalog. I have some of each, but it's not a focus. So DSD is mostly a curiosity for me. FLACs are my mainstay.
Digital Streamer Boxes, like the Eversolo are their own thing. Most of these devices seem to be designed to be used as your digital music control center. That's not how want to control my digital audio collection. Using DLNA devices with MC is problematic. There are a ton of extra things you have to make sure of if you want flawless playback. DSD is even more special with DLNA. Gapless playback requires special features that don't always work. DSP is done in a totally different way with streamers than with direct attached DACs. There are more considerations beyond these.
Because of this list above, streamers seem like a waste of time and energy for me and my system. I just want a good quality direct attached DAC that works with 96kHz and lower PCM based audio.
My opinions and goals may or may not line up with yours. Best of luck to you.
Brian.
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I can't really tell what your goals are. I'm not sure what is important to you. You seem very, very focused on DSD and especially DSD512. I think you have already decided that you want a streamer.
You asked for my opinion, so here it is:
DSD is mostly a waste of time. It's complicated in many ways. For me the complexity does not pay off in terms of sound quality. Yes, some DSD has an interesting "something" to it that sounds good. But there are very few titles available on DSD that I'm interested in. My musical tastes are wide ranging, but there's only a little bit of classical or modern jazz in my catalog. I have some of each, but it's not a focus. So DSD is mostly a curiosity for me. FLACs are my mainstay.
Digital Streamer Boxes, like the Eversolo are their own thing. Most of these devices seem to be designed to be used as your digital music control center. That's not how want to control my digital audio collection. Using DLNA devices with MC is problematic. There are a ton of extra things you have to make sure of if you want flawless playback. DSD is even more special with DLNA. Gapless playback requires special features that don't always work. DSP is done in a totally different way with streamers than with direct attached DACs. There are more considerations beyond these.
Because of this list above, streamers seem like a waste of time and energy for me and my system. I just want a good quality direct attached DAC that works with 96kHz and lower PCM based audio.
My opinions and goals may or may not line up with yours. Best of luck to you.
Brian.
Got it, thanks for the opinion.
I really wouldn't use the streamer part, since it can handle files from a server or internal 4TB drive. It's more for the DAC and not having to worry about software, etc. This is supposed to just work. You load all the DSD files all the way to 512 and it will just play.
I do have Apple Music, so I can play their catalog for all the music I don't have. It does gapless but only on FLAC and WAV.
My music is varied, but mainly rock. I base any system on how Back in the Saddle from Aerosmith sounds. So far, the best I've ever heard it, is from an HDTracks purchase of 24/96, and I couldn't find any Aerosmith or other top bands in DSD. So for DSD, I most play classical or jazz.
I like to keep my options open and experiement listening to different types of files and/or resolutions. I think I would miss the interaction with the computer for the music, if I did go with the Eversolo. It's convenient, and I would just us their App, but I wouldn't be able to do many things that I can do on the computer, like see what I am playing on the big screen. Now that I am thinking about that, it really seems very limited to have the Eversolo.
I guess I have much to think about... lol
Thanks!!
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I have an iFi Nano iDSD connected to my Mac USB and I like it a lot.
The actual hi-res material I have, mastered Classical music from BIS originally at 96k 24bit PCM before being converted to DSD for SACD distribution to ME sounds better than the 2 track 44.1k 16 bit PCM on the same disc.
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I have an iFi Nano iDSD connected to my Mac USB and I like it a lot.
The actuall hi-res material I have, mastered Classical music from BIS originally at 96k 24bit PCM before being converted to DSD for SACD distribution to ME sounds better than the 2 track 44.1k 16 bit PCM on the same disc.
Yeah, 44.1k/16 sounds thin to me. I'll probably end up with the Eversolo and a Mac running Linux. That way I get the best of both worlds. But that's a few months away, so, we'll see.
Thanks!