INTERACT FORUM

More => Music and Movie Services => Topic started by: NY40Male on October 22, 2002, 06:26:08 pm

Title: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 22, 2002, 06:26:08 pm

Subj:  NOTICE  OF  SUBSCRIPTION TERMINATION [#632016]
Date:  Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:14:53 -0700
From:  service@emusic.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
NOTICE  OF  SUBSCRIPTION TERMINATION

Your EMusic.com subscription has been permanently
terminated pursuant to sections 5.3 and 7.1 of the
EMusic.com Subscription Agreement due to account
activity in violation of the terms and spirit of the
EMusic service.

The monthly subscription fee collected by EMusic.com
with respect to the current period shall be reimbursed
to your credit card account and EMusic.com will not
bill for those months remaining of your subscription
commitment period.

You are reminded that use of content downloaded from
EMusic.com remains subject to section 8 of the
EMusic.com Subscription Agreement (http://www.emusic.com/bem/new_signup/terms.html) and
the EMusic Rights and Responsibilities
(http://emusic.com/about/rights2.html) guidelines.

Questions or comments should be directed to:
legal@emusic.com.  EMusic.com customer support will
not be able to provide you with any information or
assistance regarding this matter.


Any Clue About This?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 22, 2002, 06:28:59 pm

5.3       Because the Service is designed for personal sampling and use, you are not allowed to use any automated system for the selection or downloading of files.  EMusic reserves the right to immediately and permanently terminate your access to the Service if EMusic believes that you are violating such limitation

So If You Use MJ Download Manager They Cancel Your Subscription?...Can I Get Any Help On This?

Title: Re: Emusic cancels subscription when using MJ !
Post by: michel on October 22, 2002, 10:03:33 pm

I have just received the same email.  :(

Since JRiver displays a banner of EMusic, may be they could explain to EMusic that MJ is a download manager, not an automated system for the selection or downloading of files.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: HW808 on October 23, 2002, 05:01:18 am

Got the same email this morning :(. I contacted both their service and legal departments and will post their reply if and when I get it.

A clarification from JRiver that the relevant MJ functionality is pretty much equivalent to Zinf and their own Download Manager might indeed be helpful.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 23, 2002, 05:12:05 am

I'm sorry for the confusion and I'm sure that Emusic will also apologize once they understand what their system has done.

It is a mistake somewhere at Emusic.  Our download manager was developed with the full knowledge and cooperation of Emusic.

We should be able to find out more for you later today when California wakes up.

Jim Hillegass
CEO, JRiver

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 23, 2002, 05:25:38 am

Thanks Jim.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: PeterS on October 23, 2002, 10:52:28 am

To all MJ users who received the Termination message:

We talked to EMusic today and they confirmed that messages had been sent out to individuals who had, in their estimation, breached certain rules that they have in place, to do with such activities as password usage or download behavior.

An official response will be sent to us and posted on this board as soon as we get it.  We are doing our best to sort this out and bring it to a satisfactory resolution.

PeterS

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 23, 2002, 11:05:40 am

I try to have my subscription  canceled.
Allmost 12 hours i download with MJ DM and nothinghappens!!!
Beside this i have speed download of a phone connection,not ADSL.
And my connection is fine at this time

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 23, 2002, 11:29:05 am

Quote

such activities as password usage or download behavior

password usage: I didn't give my password

download behaviour: I downloaded 4000 files in a few weeks (I have an ADSL line so I could download much more) but there is no limit indicated in the subscription contract

Anyway, at this time, my account is ever open and I can download music. It is strange because they wrote me:

Your EMusic.com subscription has been permanently
terminated[/b] pursuant to sections 5.3 and 7.1 of the
EMusic.com Subscription Agreement due to account
activity in violation of the terms and spirit of the
EMusic service.

So wait & see... hum, I mean, download & see  ;)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on October 23, 2002, 11:41:18 am

michel

6 months ago or so i downloaded more than that (more like 60,000).

::)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 23, 2002, 12:08:42 pm

King,
Were you cancelled?

We're trying to determine where the limit is.  Emusic has said there is one, but they haven't said what it is.

Jim

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 23, 2002, 12:16:21 pm

But Michel and MaleNY40 are not testers?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 23, 2002, 12:52:20 pm

Nope I'm Just A Person That Acquires Good Music
If Need Be I Will Just Open Another Account  Until
They Kick Me Off Again..King Can Download 60,000
Songs But I Download 15,000 Songs And I'm Booted
You Gotta Love America....Zevele Can I Move To
Israel With You, I'm 1/2 Jewish

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 23, 2002, 12:57:46 pm

NY,
Hang on a day or two and let's give Emusic a chance to resolve this.  Of all the possible subscription services available, their rules have generally been pretty liberal.  Let's see if we can't find something that works for both you and them.

Jim

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 23, 2002, 12:58:34 pm

You Pay 9.99 A Month To Download All You Want...But Where Does It Say Anywhere There Is A Limit?..And What Is The Limit?....Unlimited Downloads I Think Is What They Advertise...

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 23, 2002, 01:01:45 pm

Their Front Page Says Unlimited MP3's....Or Is This A Problem Because Were Using MJ Download Manager And Getting 500 Songs A Night Instead Of Getting 500 Songs With Their Download Manager?.....Gotta Love It

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 23, 2002, 01:08:15 pm

Quote

Their Front Page Says Unlimited MP3's

I agree that their marketing is not accurate.  I expressed concern about that in e-mail to them a few hours ago.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 23, 2002, 01:21:40 pm

In allmost 2 years i downloaded  milions times more than King.
This does not mean i still have the songs.
I downloaded many times the same albums.From many computers and from 3 countrys .
Or it is that they found you  on an Hillary program?....But in this case........
I may be wrong ,but MaleNy40  have a year contract,not 3 months.
Anyway,i want them to close me...no succes...

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 23, 2002, 01:24:14 pm

If your mother jewsh,you get israeki ID at the airport,if your father jewish,more problems.
But you would have the same problem with Emusic and not the 'US only songs'  So.....

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 23, 2002, 01:28:01 pm

Quote

I may be wrong ,but MaleNy40  have a year contract,not 3 months.

I have (had ?) a 3 months contract.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 23, 2002, 01:30:54 pm

Quote

Anyway,i want them to close me...no succes...

For sure, now they know you downloaded the whole catalog they prefer you stay to pay until the end of the year-contract.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 23, 2002, 01:49:00 pm

Far from it! Never downloaded any electro,sountracks and many other.
This week i did all they Doom Metal and Stoner Rock albums.Around 100 albums.
But they login is a paint in the ...
I have sites with ALL the bands in the world.I do copy\paste to search Emusic.Of cause they do not have all the bands.So i can do 10 times copy\paste and when i find an album,i have to login again.I can't stand it.
This and the 'US only' make me think i may stop.

Look like the problem is number of songs/kind of contract

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 23, 2002, 02:23:41 pm

I Signed Up For The Year Contract....I Wouldn't Cancel For 10 Years..They Have (Some) Good Stuff That I Like..Alot Of The Stuff I'm Acquiring, I'm Doing So Just To Have Say B.B. King...
But I Have A Question....Is This A Download Manager Problem Or Is This A "We Taken Too Much Of The Buffet To Eat So No More Buffet?"
Mother Was Jewish...I Was BarMitzvahed When I Was 13...Can't/Couldn't Read A Word Of It..Rabbi Knew It And He Had Me Memorize It. And To This Day..Can't Read A Word Of It Either..(But Then Again English Is A 2nd Language To Me Too)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 23, 2002, 02:48:48 pm

I am not good at yeddish.My mother family come from Spain-500 years ago-
And my father is the sole[? the only one i mean] survivor of a large family.And was for a part from spanish origine
NOTHING to do with death camps ,only war.

At my Bar Mitzva i got my first stereo-Dual amp/tuner,turnable and Dual speakers.And a truck -well what look like a truck at this age- of lps and eps with sleeves. A lot of them from US and Canada from the canadian family and from England.My grand mother did a trip there to get me records.

I agree with you,the Emusic catalogue is at the alternative level 100% the music i like.

Having a one year deal,it is hard to think it is because of heavy downloads.
We  may know soon with the help of JimH

I just can read the "introduction' when going to Thora.To read  10 words from the text would take me more than the 24 hours of the shabbat.
Beside this  i am not going to Thora that often on Shabbat .Except if you see punk concerts as something aking to it............

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Charlemagne 8 on October 23, 2002, 04:46:40 pm

I download hundreds of songs with Media Jukebox Download Manager. I tried to let my subsciption lapse. In fact, it cut me off at the promised time and date. Well and good. If I can't decide, I let fate handle it (Zen, huh?) and I couldn't decide whether to renew or not. So I just let it go. I though it went.

I was looking at my bank balance the other day and noticed a withdrawal of $14.99 from E-Music. I relogged in and used my old log-in and password and I was back on again. I guess I can go on a month by month basis so, theoretically, I'm under no contract obligation because I never renewed. They can live with an extra $5/month, I can live with no obligation. I was really shying away from that "year" thing.

Everything worked out (remember Zen?). If they cancel because of some wierdness, c'est la vie. Or as Doris day said "Que Sera Sera". If that ain't spelled right, tough toenails. I'm Southern. English is just barely my first language and only by default. French is kind of foreign to me.

CVIII

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 23, 2002, 05:26:50 pm

You mean that they toke a 4th month?
If yes a mistake,not a steal,and,as you say,if ok with you...2 years ago,i had phone 56 kps connection.When i saw all the music i wanted,the only way was one year.
The good thing with one year is that you are not in rush.
I spend few weeks without even have a look at Emusic.

Last year ,from a legal site at $ 25 a month,i got 10.000 songs in one month,but i spent most of my days just filling the download manager.

C'est la vie [french] is correct
Que sera sera as well.Spanish and you need alt+132 on e.To make short an ' on each e.
When in the south ,i started to learn the South Fried Chicken english.
It was painfull to speak with the mouth full of  chicken just out of the hot oil...,even with the honey

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JSmithson on October 24, 2002, 03:57:41 am

Add me to the list of cancelled Emusic people.....
Please keep us updated .....

jim

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 24, 2002, 08:28:02 am

Cancelled me to.

I really don't like being accused of cheating, when in fact it seems to be them that is breaking the agreement.

I wrote to their legal dept. before even seeing this thread.  Haven't heard back in two days though.

Too bad - I was really enjoying their service.  This is certainly not the way to build good word of mouth, or "word of net" publicity.

I wonder what their payment system is to their artists.  If it is a percentage of revenue, then there would be no reason to cancel anyone.  However, if it is some formula based on the number of downloads, then they may be dropping people who are not profitable customers because they are power users.  As stated above, that would certainly seem to violate their terms of an unlimited account.

Of course, it also says in section 7.1 of their agreement that you are agreeing that they can drop you at any time for any reason.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 24, 2002, 09:28:42 am

Update:  It's been about 24 hours since we had a chance to discuss this problem with Emusic people.  They realize there is a problem and they take it very seriously.

I expect Emusic to modify their position but they haven't given us a formal response yet.  They need to clear it with their legal team and this will take a little time.

Please stay tuned.  

Note that I have deleted a couple of posts that I thought were inflammatory.  Your patience is appreciated.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: PeterS on October 24, 2002, 09:43:07 am

Further to Jim's message:

In my discussion with EMusic about this matter, they indicated that they would be willing to reinstate those individuals who took part in the MJ/EMusic beta test. No further word on that yet. I do have e-mail addresses for all of those who took part and will contact them in due course.

PeterS

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 24, 2002, 10:24:15 am

Here is what we have just heard from EMusic.  We don't believe it is enough, and we will ask for more, but at least it is a start.  Your comments are welcome.

Jim Hillegass
JRiver/Media Jukebox

========================================
EMusic Statement:

The focus and mission of EMusic is to provide avid music fans a source to sample and acquire music in the MP3 format for personal use and enjoyment.  Unlike other subscription offerings, we have gone to great lengths to provide our members with an open, easy-to-use service that allows maximum flexibility we believe consumers are seeking.  Our policies are focused on trusting that our subscribers will use the service and the music they acquire responsibly.

Unfortunately, a small number of subscribers do not follow the usage terms outlined in our terms and conditions.  To maintain our low price and continue to provide a flexible service, we work hard to minimize this abuse by monitoring the site for unusual activity.  Examples of violations include the sharing of passwords, use of automated systems to download massive numbers of tracks, and other activity on the site in excess of what is reasonable for anyone's personal use.  Accounts that we believe are violating the terms and spirit of the service are subject to cancellation.

EMusic.com

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 24, 2002, 10:31:50 am

What is the EMusic-MJ beta test?  

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 24, 2002, 10:35:28 am

So KingSparta Can Download 60,000 Cause Hes Good Friends Of Jim H And JRiver But Us Poor Old Common Folks Download 15,000 And We Get Terminated
Don't Worry No One Will Read This JimH Will Delete It..Its Against JRiver Policy To Say Anything Bad About JimH Or JRiver

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 24, 2002, 10:36:11 am

We worked with EMusic doing a beta of their new system that opened about 10 days ago.  It allows album downloads.  We modified our software and added improvements to our download manager that were tailored to the new system.  About 40 people from among our users were participants, testing both our software and EMusic's own software.  There is a board here devoted to it.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 24, 2002, 10:38:10 am

So basically they are saying they cancelled people for downloading too much on their unlimited account...

This is very upsetting.

Also, I was not part of the MJ/Emusic beta test, so I wouldn't assume those are the only people who got cancelled.

I did use the MJ DM a few weeks ago, but only for about 20 songs maybe, then I switched to Zinf, and eventually to Emusic's own DM.

I think this has more to do with volume than what we used to download.

I downloaded maybe about 200-300 albums over 2 to 3 weeks.  So I'd guess their magic number is somewhere less than that.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 24, 2002, 10:38:57 am

What about folks who were unwitting participants in the beta test, i.e., who used JRiver's software on a trial basis, without knowing anything about a beta program, and were terminated by EMusic as a result?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 24, 2002, 10:56:07 am

Quote

What about folks who were unwitting participants in the beta test, i.e., who used JRiver's software on a trial basis, without knowing anything about a beta program, and were terminated by EMusic as a result?

That didn't happen.  They needed a special version that created a special cookie.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 24, 2002, 11:04:38 am

I just want to stress again that I don't think this is tied to the beta MJ DM.  I was NOT using this, and received the same message as others.

It's either ANY version of the MJ DM, or it has nothing to do with that at all and is strictly VOLUME related.

My gut feeling was it was volume related only, however, after searching several other places on the net, I am only finding this discussion here - related to MJ.  So perhaps the MJ DM somehow triggered something in their fraud detection measures.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 24, 2002, 11:07:54 am

Quote

So perhaps the MJ DM somehow triggered something in their fraud detection measures.

Very possible, even though it was developed with the full knowledge and support of EMusic.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: PeterS on October 24, 2002, 11:10:09 am

Okay, let's be clear about a couple of things:

JRiver did not know about any EMusic policy to terminate subscribers for downloading too many files. It is as much a surprise to us as to you.

We were not consulted regarding any terminations before they were made, so it is certainly not a case of playing favorites.

We only know what we have told you. Please direct your concerns and questions about EMusic policy to them.

PeterS

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 24, 2002, 01:50:30 pm

I've talked with the EMusic people again.  They have agreed to reinstate MJ users who participated in the beta program.  This should happen in the next few days.  

If you were not in the beta program but have been terminated, please send an e-mail to jimh @ jriver.com summarizing what your activity with EMusic has been.  I'd like to see if I can understand what sort of activity has triggered the terminations.  I'd like to know roughly how long you have subscribed and about how many tracks you may have downloaded during that time.  Also whether you used a download manager and whose it was.

There is something more that may be helpful to understand.  Each time a track is downloaded from EMusic or any other service, there is a royalty of around 7 cents due for the copyright owner.  This means that if you're paying a fixed monthly fee, there is a threshold below which the download service can make money.  It was described to me as something like an all-you-can-eat buffet.  It isn't fair to bring your wheelbarrow.

We've done as much as I think we can now.  Your best bet is to deal directly with EMusic.  Please keep us informed of your progress.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 24, 2002, 02:21:21 pm

Personally, I think this says it all:

(http://images.mp3.com/emusic/goodnoise/pitch/images/more1.gif)

I guess the boundaries of my musical interests were beyond their limits.

If they can only make money below a certain point, then they need to alter their business model accordingly.  

It is very deceptive to advertise UNLIMITED, and then just cut you off if you happen to actually use their service beyond a certain point.

Also, I wonder if the "Emusic subscriber" quoted above has been terminated due to his excessive, hours a day, downloading habits.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 24, 2002, 02:48:13 pm

The screenshot in the last post says it all, and I hope at this point JRiver will leave the post up.  EMusic has "unlimited" all over their promotional material.  Folks who believe they have been unfairly terminated should consider filing a complaint with the FTC at https://rn.ftc.gov/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=PU01 and/or the California State Attorney General's office, http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/mailform.htm.  You might also consider writing to the RIAA, http://riaa.org/Contact.cfm, a trade organization for the music industry, and telling them what you think about this kind of business practice by a so-called "legitimate" download service.

[Please note that the foregoing does not constitute legal advice]

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 24, 2002, 03:00:54 pm

I Love Laywers.. They Know All The Good Stuff

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 24, 2002, 03:06:29 pm

Quote

The screenshot in the last post says it all, and I hope at this point JRiver will leave the post up.  EMusic has "unlimited" all over their promotional material.  Folks who believe they have been unfairly terminated should consider filing a complaint with the FTC at https://rn.ftc.gov/dod/wsolcq$.startup?Z_ORG_CODE=PU01 and/or the California State Attorney General's office, http://caag.state.ca.us/consumers/mailform.htm.  You might also consider writing to the RIAA, http://riaa.org/Contact.cfm, a trade organization for the music industry, and telling them what you think about this kind of business practice by a so-called "legitimate" download service.

Thanks IBL.  If they don't respond to my first email within a week, I'll be including this in my second email to legal@emusic.com as the next steps I'll be taking if they do not reinstate my account for the remainder of my 3 month subscription.

I encourage everyone to write firm, but nice emails with similar information to legal@emusic.com so they understand that we, the consumers, won't stand for this type of deceptive practice.

I would much rather clear this up without resorting to formal complaint channels.  I was very happy with their service, and telling all my friends about it.  If they don't fix this situation, I'll still be telling all my friends about it, but it will be a very different story...

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 24, 2002, 03:14:04 pm

Quote

I encourage everyone to write firm, but nice emails with similar information to legal@emusic.com so they understand that we, the consumers, won't stand for this type of deceptive practice.

I would much rather clear this up without resorting to formal complaint channels.  I was very happy with their service, and telling all my friends about it.  If they don't fix this situation, I'll still be telling all my friends about it, but it will be a very different story...

Well said.

I urge everyone to show similar restraint in trying to work this out.  EMusic is owned by Universal Music, one of the Big Five record labels.  It is as liberal a service as any of the record labels has yet to offer.  Let's see if we can work with them.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 24, 2002, 03:27:17 pm

JimH,
I would certainly appreciate your continued support on this.  You seem to have their ear.  I can't even get a reply to my email.

Was their offer to reinstate the beta MJ DM users an admition that it was related to that software, or were they just 'throwing you a bone'?

I certainly feel the rest of us deserve reinstatement, and not just the beta testers.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Lynn on October 24, 2002, 05:21:35 pm

Jim

I too was cancelled today and have been using the Beta 9.  Please keep us posted on your progress on getting this resolved.  None of us felt that using MJ would present a problem.

We appreciate your help.

Lynn

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Jazzwolf on October 25, 2002, 04:12:13 am

 I really don't like the EMusic Download manager but I went back to it last night. It is just not worth the hassle, their flawed system must be detecting something wrong when MJ is used to download their files.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 25, 2002, 06:44:57 am

Quote

I really don't like the EMusic Download manager but I went back to it last night. It is just not worth the hassle, their flawed system must be detecting something wrong when MJ is used to download their files.

It isn't MJ's download manager.  We're sure of that.

It looks like EMusic has a secret "magic number" that triggers the termination.  I'm just guess here.  I don't have any information at all from EMusic on this (though I have tried to get it).  I suspect that the number is something like 5,000 tracks in any three month period.

If you do the math, 5000 tracks would cost EMusic about $350, but the user would only have paid about $30.

I may be wrong on the above so don't use it as a guideline.  It could be as low as 1000/month.

It is obviously a problem for you if EMusic has a limit but doesn't publish it.  It isn't right.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 25, 2002, 07:28:04 am

Especially When They Claim Access To Their Entire Library Of 200,000 Song.. Unlimited Downloading...
Seems Like Its Time To Click On That Link To The CA Attorney General

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 25, 2002, 07:58:46 am

Quote

I suspect that the number is something like 5,000 tracks in any three month period.

I downloaded about 6000 in a couple of weeks and I had been canceled. You are probably right.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 25, 2002, 08:15:08 am

According to Jim, Emusic has to pay 0,07$ per track downloaded.

Paying 10$ / month during 1 year, Emusic would loss money if you download more than 1704 tracks during the year (143 / month).

Using ADSL or cable, you can download this amount in 2 or 3 days. Even if not all have ADSL or cable connection, It is difficult to believe they built a so risky business model.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Jazzwolf on October 25, 2002, 08:19:21 am

 I don't think I've ever downloaded anywhere 5000 files. I guess I'll go back to MJ download Manager and see what happens. How do I restore MJ DL Manager?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Nick_LeFave on October 25, 2002, 08:55:18 am

From the Emusic General FAQ Page:

Quote

Do musicians and labels get paid for the MP3s I download?
 
Yes. EMusic splits all of the profits from membership fees 50/50 with the label or artist. EMusic is a legitimate downloadable music service that compensates artists and labels for their work, without sacrificing convenience or low-cost.

What is EMusic?

EMusic is a revolutionary new music discovery service that offers an easy and inexpensive way for avid music fans to download and enjoy over 200,000 high-quality MP3 songs from established musicians. For as little as $9.99 a month, you can download as much music as you desire from EMusic's catalog. All of the music is legitimately licensed from record labels and artists, so you can feel comfortable knowing that songwriters, musicians and other copyright-holders are being fairly compensated for their work.

My obseravtion here (for what it is worth). I have downloaded over 100gigs of files in 18 months. I used Getright, an automated downloader manager, for a year. This was on a dialup connection. I had T1 access to emusic for about 2 months. I used the Real Audio Download Manager and the .rmp files for 1 month, downloading about 3000 files.  Right now I am using MJ and the MJ Download Manager. I am still on the dialup. I know I average about 40 files a night and 1200 files a month. I think emusic has a sniffer going that detects what it thinks is automated download utilities leeching files. I bet it only uses a small time frame. If you download too many files in that time frame, then you must be a download criminal. Either way, I am peacefully awaiting there response to emusic and also to my own inquiry. I am saving all correspondence just in case I need to submit this issue to my state's attorney general, Tom Miller (you know the guy that still wants to stick it to MS and beat the tobacco companies into submission).

Praying for the best outcome here.

btw. Thanks Jim H for going to bat for us.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 25, 2002, 09:10:37 am

BTW, if anybody wants to contact the AG in their own state (about any matter), here is a link to a listing of all available AG sites: http://www.findlaw.com/11stategov/indexag.html.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 25, 2002, 10:27:07 am

Quote

Praying for the best outcome here.

Not sure if God cards about our MP3 downloads...
Well, maybe ones from under the Religious category, but I'm pretty sure he won't help me get reinstated so I can download more death metal...   ;)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Nick_LeFave on October 25, 2002, 11:30:48 am

Quote

Not sure if God cards about our MP3 downloads...
Well, maybe ones from under the Religious category, but I'm pretty sure he won't help me get reinstated so I can download more death metal...   ;)

I can't speak for God, but as Oddball said, "always with them negative waves, Moriarty."

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Neanderthaler on October 25, 2002, 02:14:58 pm

"You get access to our whole mp3 catalog,every track in every genre"

Seems to me that they lie more than only on the volume issue.
Since there is a lot that I can not download because of US restrictions, but they do advertise with these tracks!!
I do like Emusic a lot for there large catalog, but get irritated by these lies.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Michael Horton on October 25, 2002, 03:40:35 pm

Perhaps:

music "industry" hears as excuse for illegal downloading: "There are no legal alternatives." Industry doesn't want to, but sets up legal alternative to end this excuse for piracy. Industry takes in in the shorts financially, and so provokes people in to not using the service, and service folds. Industry says, "We tried providing a legal alternative, but that's apparently not what the people really want. So we'll go back to what we were offering before--nothing."

advantage: One more excuse for illegal downloading nullified, as industry looks as though it made an effort to create a solution addressing the needs of those who were pirating their music

why i think this: the seemingly unworkable business model and the great lengths to which emusic had gone to chase away customers can't be the design of a company that intended to actually remain in business for very long.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 25, 2002, 04:27:27 pm

It may be more a matter of both sides don't trust the other.  Combined with a royalty system that never envisioned people having 20,000 tracks for their own personal use.

I don't think it's sinister.

If they thought they could make money, they'd be all over it.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: sekim on October 25, 2002, 04:27:31 pm

For measure, I posted a link in the HA forum to see if this goes further then seen here. It is a bit underhanded to see this sort of stuff happening. And I was thinking about a subscription. I think I'll wait now.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 25, 2002, 04:49:45 pm

In Case Anyone Gives A  Care I Filed An Online Complaint With The California Attorney Generals Office
And I'm  Hoping More Will Do So With Their Deceptive Practices

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 25, 2002, 04:56:29 pm

Quote

It may be more a matter of both sides don't trust the other.  Combined with a royalty system that never envisioned people having 20,000 tracks for their own personal use.

I don't think it's sinister.

If they thought they could make money, they'd be all over it.

Jim, a number of industry observers believe that the music industry has in fact set up various subscription services expecting them to fail.  The reason is just as the previous poster put it, so that the industry can say "we tried and failed."  Most observers who have so opined, however, were referring to services like Pressplay that sharply limit the number of tracks subscribers can keep.

Nevertheless, it is farcical to suppose that Vivendi didn't understand the numbers when they acquired EMusic, or when they opened the back catalog of Universal to the service.  (Vivendi has indicated that it wants to sell most of its internet properties, and this may somehow play into EMusic's recent actions.)  

Ultimately, it is hard to understand how they think this kind of thing is going to help them.  They could have offered, say, 1,000 downloads per month, but they chose instead to plaster the term "unlimited" all over their site and their advertising. The publicity this will lead to could be devastating.  

They are a very, very high profile target; why they would paint a bullseye on their back is beyond me.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 25, 2002, 05:03:50 pm

ibusiness,
JRiver has been working in this area since Diamond came out with the Rio.  We were members of SDMI and attended the first 5 or 6 meetings.  We have been to NY and LA enough to have met and talked with maybe 50 people from all 5 record labels, many of them several times.

I don't think it's a conspiracy.  I think they are moving slowly because they aren't dialed in to the technology (at the top) and they don't see how they can make money.

EMusic has been a ray of hope for me.  I think they come close to offering what our users want.   Pressplay and MusicNet don't.  

I don't think EMusic has handled this well, but I certainly sympathize with them given the market conditions.

I believe they will get it right.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Michael Horton on October 25, 2002, 05:38:49 pm

well, in keeping with my practice of seeking enemies on every possible side of any given question, let me say that my comment was intended for those in the "let's sue them" camp, hoping that it might give them pause to consider that their actions may be of the "cutting off the nose to spite the face" type.

I'm an emusic customer--signed up to support the endeavor, even though I don't like the poorly-ripped 128 kbs files. I'd like to see emusic succeed, perhaps in spite of themelves.

I've been downloading maybe 150-200 songs per month, using MJ'd download manager. I used it twice this week, so it's use alone doesn't seem to be the problem, as I haven't received the offending termination notice yet. I listen to the songs and then delete them. That's so many songs, in fact that I don't have time enough to listen to more than bits and pieces of each song before deleting it. If I think that I'd like the CD, I add it to my Amazon shopping cart, and move it to save for later. I buy a few CDs a month. If emusic would rip at a higher bitrate, and post the CD's insert notes someplace, I think that I could invision buying a lot less Cds.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 26, 2002, 12:38:19 am

I am not sure about the $  0,07 concerning the no-universal artists.
I do think that i is\was less.Still kind of good deal for all the labels on Emusic.
How many of you have any Bomp!,Frontier or Voxx records?
On the top of the sales [small] ,to get some money-even small- from Emusic was a plus.Exposure to thousand and thousand people a very good thing.
Some indee labels have on Emusic records out of print since long.Instead of re-editing it,just encoding it can gives some money and ,again,some exposure.

The 'first' Emusic [i mean before universal domination] had great concern about people putting Emusic stuff on Napster [it was the only one at this time].
From the day universal toke it,you never heard again about it.BECAUSE THEY SOLD INDEE LABELS ,NOT universal CATALOGUE.
And they dream is to be able to put to death any indee label.

All the problems are since they put some of they music on Emusic.They may have to pay the $ 0,07 for universal music.

Anyway,i do not feel to start again if labels want this or that.I do feel they deserve only contempt.I see them as enemys and the most anti-democratic  organized corporate on earth.

But if i rent a car telling 'unlimited kilometers' for $x a day, i would not pay them if they ask for money concerning kilometer after more than x kilometers
If i buy a litter drink ,it has to be a litter inside ,not 0,86 .

If you did a mistake selling your jukebox $ 25,and next week you remove mp3 encoding from registered version, you deserve to be take to court

I do not see why ,because it looks like universal are less f...g  b.....ds  than sony [ ??] , they deserve a special  treatment.If in USA ,i would fill a complaint  while downloading songs at the format i want ,mp3 or wma or ogg up to 340 kps at  $ 15 a month or $ 0,01 per megabytes.
It is legal according to the law and the agrements they reach in this country .Of cause not a country under Hillary rules.
And they will get more and more like it,as i get on p2p  at VBR 192 kps a lot of albums on 128 kps on Emusic.

By the way since now 5 months i do not buy music from majors.I can tell you i still buy a lot of good music not giving any penny to $%$^#.....

Listening to RAIKORIS punk band from Kathmandu Tibet

They are not on universal because they know that they would not have a problem financing the holocauste of tibetan people if doing this gives them acces to the chinesse market.

You will keep or not my post in full,but think twice about what i say: just the true.

Anyway ,have a nice week-end

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 26, 2002, 06:52:38 am

Quote

Listening to RAIKORIS punk band from Kathmandu Tibet

Listening "The last train to Lhasa" of Banco de Gaia

(an album to remember of the thibetain people)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 27, 2002, 02:31:17 am

Just curious if anyone was cancelled BEFORE the end of their first month.  For me it was just a few days after the beginning of the 2nd month of my 3 month subscription.

Also, I haven't seen a credit back to my card yet as they stated.  Has anyone?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 27, 2002, 03:56:04 am

Yup..I Got My $9.99 Back....Just Checked My Checking Acct...Online...Comes Back As Emusic Reversal.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 27, 2002, 05:51:16 am

NY40male

I may be wrong but you are not new on Emusic .You toke one year few months ago?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 27, 2002, 10:14:21 am

I Signed Up About 3 Months Ago (Maybe) For The Year
But They Terminated Me....Or At Least My Post Was First...But They Credited My Checking Account I Noticed Today

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Charlemagne 8 on October 27, 2002, 10:29:38 am

In the last three months, I have downloaded 3,112 tracks from Emusic, all but 149 of them using MJ's DM.
I have not been cancelled. On the contrary, I tried to quit and it didn't stick.
Tentative conclusion?
It has nothing to do with the DM you use but it may have something to do with the number of tracks and maybe even the genre or even the artist. Most of my downloads have been in the Jazz or Blues category ... never big money makers for the "Industry".

CVIII
-------------------------------------------------------------------
A seemingly non-related story follows. Read it if you have time but don't if you don't. You won't miss anything.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
When I first got connected to the internet a couple of years ago, I used a free ISP called Juno. I liked it and thought I should pay for it and that's when the trouble began. The come-on was "better connection, faster connection and more reliable connection". There was no mention of a connection time limit. During the Christmas break, I was home for most of the 10 days I was off and used the internet for a large portion of that time (Napster was the cause but, as I had dial-up I wasn't really causing much damage but at any rate, I know better now so shut up). I was soon cancelled for "violating the usage policy of Juno" which was never stated. It took a telephone call to New York to find out what I had done wrong. Once out, there was no going back. I did get "invited" back a short time later at a higher rate but I declined. Gracefully. (Yeah, right)

My point being, this behavior is not isolated. So now we know. Not much can be done except report them to the BBB.
Their "agreement" gives them the right to behave as they see fit at the time. No recourse. Close your eyes and take it and then move on.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
The preceding story was brought to you by a bitter old man who only holds a grudge for fifty years or so.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 27, 2002, 10:45:17 am

So start again,download like a mad,be cut [sorry...]
Start again ,do the same.
You would get thousands of songs for far less than a year subsciption.
To others:
DO NOT take a 3 months trial,take one year,download like mad until they cut you .You would get 3 or 4 thousands songs for $10 or $20.Not a bad deal.
My second year is until februar,i will start to download like a mad soon.If i have luck ,they may cut me.
I will start again with an US adress if you know what i mean,i will download like a mad until cut  and bye F O

Now if they are not fair i do not see any raison to be.
Will put a VERY BIG new folder to share this evening......

I found 2 LEGAL places to dowload music,not as cheap as Emusic and not with the same underground catalogue.- but quite good
After giving it a try  ,i let you know

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 27, 2002, 10:47:08 am

I would disagree with you about lack of recourse in a hypothetical situation where a company promises something in advertising to induce potential customers to sign up, but then refuses to honor its promise.  For an example of a statutory provision that might apply, see:

Cal Bus & Prof Code § 17500 (2002)

§ 17500.  False or misleading statements generally

  It is unlawful for any. . . corporation or association, or any employee thereof with intent directly or indirectly to. . . perform services, professional or otherwise, or anything of any nature whatsoever or to induce the public to enter into any obligation relating thereto, to make or disseminate or cause to be made or disseminated before the public in this state, or to make or disseminate or cause to be made or disseminated from this state before the public in any state, in any. . . advertising device. . . or in any other manner or means whatever, including over the Internet, any statement, concerning those. . . services, professional or otherwise, or concerning any circumstance or matter of fact connected with the proposed performance or disposition thereof, which is untrue or misleading, and which is known, or which by the exercise of reasonable care should be known, to be untrue or misleading, or for any. . . corporation to so make or disseminate or cause to be so made or disseminated any such statement as part of a plan or scheme with the intent not to sell. . . those services, professional or otherwise, so advertised at the price stated therein, or as so advertised. Any violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, or by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($ 2,500), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

Even if such a hypothetical company would not be prosecuted criminally, the statute (and others like it) can be enforced civilly.

[The foregoing is not legal advice]

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on October 27, 2002, 10:56:51 am

>> imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding
>> six months
Sounds Nice, Do they get roaches in there food also?


'In The Still Of The Night' Charted At 38 In 1960

Listening to: 'In The Still Of The Night' from 'The Best Of Dion And The Belmonts' by 'Dion And The Belmonts' on Media Jukebox

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 27, 2002, 11:05:16 am

ibusinesslawyer,
Section 7.1 of their agreement, which they put in the cancelation email, states that they can cancel you at any time for any reason.  You have to agree to that before signing up.

Wouldn't that cover them for canceling anybody for any reason?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 27, 2002, 11:17:04 am

I would argue that where a hypothetical company makes an explicit promise and then reneges on it by reference to a provision that purports to allow the company to renege on any promise it makes, the very fact of referring to such a provision for its actions is evidence of an unfair trade practice.  Moreover, were the contract per se the issue, many courts would invalidate the provision as unconscionable.

[The foregoing is not legal advice]

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 27, 2002, 11:18:10 am

Quote

§ 17500.  False or misleading statements generally

  It is unlawful for any. . . corporation or association, ... to. . . perform services, professional or otherwise, ......, including over the Internet, any statement, concerning those. . . services...which is untrue or misleading,...
Even if such a hypothetical company would not be prosecuted criminally, the statute (and others like it) can be enforced civilly.

So, for Californians present, is your interest in this matter business or pleasure?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on October 27, 2002, 11:28:43 am

>> is your interest in this matter business or pleasure?
I would think A Bit of Both

I deal with this sort of thing when we get in a lawsuit and if it is advertised and they dig into it we (Orkin Pest Control) normally pay out a few million. The last Claim we had was $2000 and ended up to be 2.3 Million (Still pending on appeal)



'Goodnight My Love' Charted At 32 In 1963

Listening to: 'Goodnight My Love' from 'The Rock'N'Roll Era - The Last Dance' by 'Fleetwood’s' on Media Jukebox

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 27, 2002, 11:31:28 am

King Never States If He Got Terminated Also...Especially With All That He Has Downloaded Or Is Emusic Playing Favorites?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 27, 2002, 11:34:20 am

Do not need to go so far
Unlimited downloads they say
It is not true

Do not know in US but in France enought to take them in court.
They did not say that it was for to much downloads ,i know.
But if put in court in France ,they will have to prove that .

Anyway JimH i am sorry as you may be to see a friendly indee company starting to be as bastard than the ones who buy it.
But when this know outside of this forum another good raison to people to use p2p

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on October 27, 2002, 11:39:40 am

I never got terminated from e-music maybe before Un-Advertized limits kicked in.

I downloaded what I could (maybe 60,000 - 80,000) and then left, I deleted most of them i think maybe I have a 1,000 of them from E-music (Just A Guess, But It Is Not Much).


'Rag Doll' Charted At 01 In 1964

Listening to: 'Rag Doll' from 'Black & White Piano, Vol. 1' by 'Four Seasons' on Media Jukebox

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 27, 2002, 11:48:28 am

Quote

Anyway JimH i am sorry as you may be to see a friendly indee company starting to be as bastard than the ones who buy it.
But when this know outside of this forum another good raison to people to use p2p

I agree with you that EMusic has made a mistake.  You, their customers, can ask them to make it right.  We will try to help.

If you're successful, it would be a positive step for digital music delivery.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 27, 2002, 12:17:27 pm

I do not have problem until now.
So it looks a little bit' over ' to send them an email about it.

But again the way they behave.Nothing ,just an email,FY,we do not want you anymore.Like if people are rubish.
But without people they are nothing.And without indee labels they are less.
Acting as they do ,they may lost indee labels.

Even with a limit at 1000 songs a month it is a good deal.
If you are honest to say so

One of the site i found charges $14.99 for 1000 songs a month.But NOT on Xing 128 ,on 192 and some  on 160.
Or $0,01 the MB if you do not want a month

Another one charges $25 a month unlimited downloads.
Both run since few years,so they do make money.

But this problem shows how labels and corporates had behave and will behave   for ever

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 27, 2002, 12:24:56 pm

Zevele What Are The Other Site That You Speak Of..Are They Still Around?..Anything Good?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 27, 2002, 01:01:05 pm

I am trying the other sites.
When i have a 'general picture' i will post about it.
It is not as easy than with Emusic ,there is problems with tags making some mess at the downloading level.
Caltalogue is much more  general than the underground/indee Emusic one.

Both sites are legal in they countrys ,so i will post on interact

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 27, 2002, 01:04:17 pm

Not to get too far off topic, but speaking of tagging problems - all the music I downloaded from Emusic seems to have a Genre tag of "Blues".  Is this something I did, or is this something they did?  I certainly couldn't find anything I did.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on October 27, 2002, 01:11:08 pm

What Are The Problems With The Tags?

Maybe That Could Be fixed By Runing It Thru A Tag Cleaner Or Other Program of somesort.


'Western Union' Charted At 05 In 1967

Listening to: 'Western Union' from 'The Best Of Five Americans' by 'Five Americans' on Media Jukebox

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on October 27, 2002, 01:15:11 pm

>> "Blues".  Is this something I did, or is this
>> something they did?
Id3v1 Genre Code "0" is Blues

this also means they did not fill it in.

this could be for some reason company Policy for one.

music may fall into many groups and if you set a genre then someone would ask why is this trance song in with Techno. you can't win for losing.


'Can't Take My Eyes Off You' Charted At 02 In 1967

Listening to: 'Can't Take My Eyes Off You' from 'Anthology Cd' by 'Frankie Valli' on Media Jukebox

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 27, 2002, 01:27:34 pm

Thanks King!
I thought it must be something like that.
Although when I wrote to their tech people, they had no idea.  Go figure...

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 27, 2002, 01:29:34 pm

Blues means not genre set.
You get the same with mp3.com

Tags:
Look like that songs get the same tags.
Like U2 first album with the song Gloria on the first album, and live on the third live mini alum.
If you download all in a general folder ,when downloding the second  Gloria,you get a message'you have allready .....do you want to download again'.
If answer yes ,you overwrite the studio version ,if answer no ,you do not get the live version.
It is not that there is no tags for album.In MJ you see the album name.

Other problem
With reedition if you have the original song 'KingSpata is the king' and 'KingSparta is the  king' mono and 'KingSparta is the king' outtake.Some time the tags are the same for the 3 songs .At the end you get only the outtake and you see 2 songs are missing on the album.

The way i found is to use GetRight cause you can create a folder inside the interface. Like it you have each album in a sub folder -album name- inside a folder-band name-
The problem is that if you want to check with some programs ,you have to do it folder by folder,a real pain somewhere...

Concerning the songs inside the same album ,i think that with GetRight you can change the name of the file before starting to download.
I am sure i used this fonction ,but i cannot find it now

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on October 27, 2002, 01:37:25 pm

>> Tags:
I See, Basicly Bad File Names And Bad Tags On Versions Of The Same Song


'Over You' Charted At 07 In 1968

Listening to: 'Over You' from 'Greatest Hits' by 'Gary Puckett And The Union Gap' on Media Jukebox

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 27, 2002, 01:47:18 pm

Yes
But the problem is that it mess around with the download.
When you have the songs on your hard drive ,correct  the tags is not a problem

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Nick_LeFave on October 28, 2002, 08:25:53 am

Posting on http://help.emusic.com/ssr/index.pl?t=3 AKA Subscriber Status Page

Quote

Product: EMusic Audio Players
Last Updated: 10-28-02 08:58
Status: In Progress
Details:

If you are wondering what options you have for download manager software, look no further than the EMusic Audio Players page!

These download managers include support for EMusic's new download format and can download full albums or single tracks from EMusic!  The PC download managers Media Jukebox and Zinf also act as MP3 players giving you an all-in-one download and play solution!

Simply click the link above to visit our Audio Players page and then click on the "download" button for a player that matches your operating system!

From the Audio Player page mentioned above (I did not include the 3 other sanctioned jukeboxes with download managers).

Quote

Welcome to the EMusic Audio Players page! Each of these software products do the following:
Support one-click complete album downloading.
Organize your music collection.
Queue up multiple tracks for download.
Need help? EMusic does not offer support for these products. Please visit the software product's web site or the help files located on the player's interface.

  MEDIA JUKEBOX
Rip, encode and burn MP3s with this award-winning music management system. This top rated jukebox has more power and more features than any other, and offers unparalleled file organization, search and playback options.
The new Download Manager component allows fast, single-click downloads of whole EMusic.com albums, instant playback of tracks as they download, and automatic import of new files into your music library.

Got a question about MEDIA JUKEBOX? Need help? Post a message here!

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Charlemagne 8 on October 28, 2002, 05:05:46 pm

I guess that eliminates another possible cause of EMusic termination.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Lynn on October 29, 2002, 05:15:58 pm

Hi,

I received the attached from eMusic today, and I plan to ask them for guideline of reasonable use.  I am happy that they are trying to work this difficult problem out:

Dear EMusic Subscriber,

Thank you for your response to receiving an account
termination notice.  After reviewing your account
usage and evaluating your explanation as to why we
should reconsider this action, we have provisionally
reinstated your EMusic subscription.  Please read
below for further information.

Your account was one that we identified as having
unusually excessive download activity, which is
outside the scope and intent of our Terms and Conditions:
http://www.emusic.com/bem/new_signup/terms.html.
Although EMusic is structured to allow consumers to
discover, sample and download music for personal use
and enjoyment, it is not designed and cannot operate
as a source for consumers to download unreasonably
excessive quantities of music for which we are
obligated to pay artist and songwriter royalties.

Unlike other online music subscription services, we
have gone to great lengths to provide our subscribers
with an open, easy-to-use service that allows maximum
flexibility. Unfortunately, some subscribers do not
follow the usage terms in word or spirit.  

To maintain our low price and continue to provide a
flexible service, we work hard to minimize abuse by
monitoring the site for unusual activity.  Examples of
violations include but are not limited to password
sharing, use of automated systems to download huge
numbers of tracks, and other activity on the site in
excess of what is reasonable for one's personal use.
Accounts that we believe are violating the terms and
spirit of the service are subject to cancellation.

Although your account has been reinstated, we ask that
you consider these guidelines carefully as you use the
service in the future.

Kind Regards,

EMusic.com

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 29, 2002, 05:22:44 pm

My wife received a different letter.  Emusic advertises "UNLIMITED" downloads.  Period.  If they want to offer a "LIMITED" service, they need advertise it that way.  We are planning to take appropriate action.

- - - - - - - - -

Dear EMusic Subscriber,

Thank you for your response to receiving an account
termination notice.  Based on your account activity we
cannot reinstate your EMusic subscription.  Please
read below for further information.

Your account was one that we identified as having
unusually excessive download activity, which is
outside the scope and intent of our Terms and Conditions
http://www.emusic.com/bem/new_signup/terms.html Although EMusic is structured to allow consumers to
discover, sample and download music for personal use
and enjoyment, it is not designed and cannot operate
as a source for consumers to download unreasonably
excessive quantities of music for which we are
obligated to pay artist and songwriter royalties.  

Unlike other online music subscription services, we
have gone to great lengths to provide our subscribers
with an open, easy-to-use service that allows maximum
flexibility. To maintain our low price and continue to
provide a flexible service, we work hard to minimize
abuse by monitoring the site for unusual activity.
Examples of violations include but are not limited to
password sharing, use of automated systems to download
huge numbers of tracks, and other activity on the site
in excess of what is reasonable for one's personal
use.  Accounts that we believe are violating the terms
and spirit of the service are subject to cancellation.
 

EMusic.com

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 29, 2002, 05:34:33 pm

I Got The Same Message As Lynn...I Wrote Them Back Saying They Suck And I Contacted The Attorney General Of California..Have A Nice Life Going Bankrupt....Also You Noticed They Havent Put Up Anything New In 4 Days...Just A Concidence?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 29, 2002, 05:53:50 pm

Prosecutor Opens Probe Into Vivendi
Tue Oct 29, 6:52 PM ET
By PIERRE-ANTOINE SOUCHARD, Associated Press Writer

PARIS (AP) - Prosecutors opened an investigation Tuesday into whether Vivendi Universal under former chairman Jean-Marie Messier misled investors with falsified financial reports to buttress the media giant's beleaguered shares.

Paris prosecutors are trying to determine whether the company published false balance sheets for fiscal years 2000 and 2001 and issued deceptive information about its forecasts for this year and last, judicial officials said on condition of anonymity.

The investigation was prompted by a complaint filed by shareholders who allege the company under Messier's leadership deliberately misled investors into buying or holding Vivendi's stock.



For the rest of the article, see http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=530&e=4&cid=530&u=/ap/20021029/ap_on_bi_ge/france_vivendi

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Lynn on October 29, 2002, 05:58:19 pm

Hi,

They are still the best game in town in terms of selection of full CDs for download.  I don't pirate music, and buying CDs in stores is very expensive. To encourage them to go bankrupt is a bit self-defeating don't you think?  

I for one would prefer they stay in business a long time even if it means a pricing model that bills on a per track basis.  Clearly they underestimated the usage patterns for certain segments of the market.  They can learn from this and restructure their offer, and if it is competitive we can sign up.  

In the meantime, I hope they will provide some guidelines on what constitutes excessive use.  Based upon Jim's statement of .07 per track royalties, at $10 per month, it is probably 5-10 CDs per month with overhead of running the site.  

That is still $1-2 per CD and is a good deal to me.

Lynn

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: NY40Male on October 29, 2002, 06:17:48 pm

Hey Lynn...Try WebListen.com..
1) The Downloading Sucks
2) The File Naming Sucks
3) The Selection Is AWESOME

I Spent 6 Hours There Last Night And Got 82 Full Albums
And 10 Of The Albums Are New Ones That Just Came Out
I Paid For One Night Of Service To Try It...And I'll Prolly Spend The Next 3 Nights Fixing The Names (MJ Helps Alot) And I'm Still Not Really Sure What It Cost Me Yet For The One Night (We Have It Figured It Either Cost Me $14.00 Or $1,500.00 For The Night...I Gotta Get Back To You On That One..But If Someone Figures Out The Conversion Rate I'd Be Happy To Know)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 29, 2002, 10:11:00 pm

( 1.50 US$) (1,65 euros)

This is what you paid

Now here the problem.Most of they custumers are in Europe where  fast internet connection is not that much the rule.Phone 56 kp modem is.
So ,if all of you start to plug your ADSL and MJ download manager and got 500/600 songs a night ,they may have to change they politic as Emusic did


They are still the best game in town in terms of selection of full CDs for download

You are right,very right.
And if you try others ,you would see how to download from Emusic  is EASY.

I may try something to know more about the limit

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 29, 2002, 10:33:03 pm

I Just received it myself:

Dear EMusic Subscriber,

We received and reviewed your response to EMusic's
account termination notice.  After re-evaluating your
account history, unfortunately we concluded that
reinstating your account would be contrary to EMusic's
business interest and policies.  

Although EMusic's goal has been to help consumers
discover, sample and download a wide range of music
for personal use and enjoyment, EMusic cannot continue
to operate as a legal source for indiscriminate
downloading of copyrighted sound recordings and
musical compositions.  Unlike other online music
subscription services, EMusic has gone to great
lengths to provide an open, easy-to-use service, for a
reasonable price.  Without regard to content hosting,
serving and administrative expenses, royalties payable
to recording artists and/or songwriters with respect
to every downloaded track no longer affords EMusic the
luxury of taking these matters lightly.

In order to maintain Emusic's low price while
providing a flexible and compelling service, we must
focus on limiting instances of service-abuse by
monitoring the site for unusual activity.  Examples of
service-abuses include, but are not limited to
password sharing and use of automated systems to
download quantities of tracks far beyond one's
reasonable personal use.  Accounts found to be used in
violation of the expressed or implied guidelines of
EMusic's service are subject to immediate cancellation.

Your account originally was investigated due to
download activity far in exceeding that of the
overwhelming majority of subscribers.  Upon concluding
that your activities constituted an abuse of EMusic's
service, we were and remain compelled to exercise
EMusic's legal perogative under the EMusic.com's
Subscription Agreement (http://www.emusic.com/bem/new_signup/terms.html), including the provisions set forth in Section
7.1  "You agree that EMusic, in its sole discretion,
may terminate your ID, password, account (or any part
thereof) or use of the Service for any reason…."

Again, we apologize for any inconvenience and hope
that you appreciate the basis of EMusic's decision and
action in this matter.

EMusic.com

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Ken Brookings on October 30, 2002, 03:13:48 am

I would encourage a little more kindness for the Emusic folks.  Figuring out how to make an Internet-enabled business is very difficult.  Unlike established business forms there is no path to follow.  Lots of folks on this board are downloading music at a rate that causes Emusic to lose money.  Then banging the drum for lawsuits.  Maybe J River should ask Emusic to contribute to this forum and state their case.  Nobody wins if they simply go out of business because we found a way to tap into their database in a way that causes them to lose money.  Perhaps they did approach things wrong in their product promotion but also perhaps we should give them another chance.  I would be nice to see them survive and offer us a valuable service.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 30, 2002, 03:28:36 am

The problem is not as you say.

The problem is  '"UNLIMITED DOWNLOADS'

And it is not true

Now they tend to say there is not such a thing than unlimited download

But they still do not say what is the amount of songs you can get  each month


.  Nobody wins if they simply go out of business because we found a way to tap into their database in a way that causes them to lose money.  

This is wrong.We do not find a way to do this or that,because they say UNLIMITED DOWNLOADS

They may had send a email to the ones downloading to much first and close they accompt after if they did not stop to 'over download'


Today we have a seller who lies saying unlimited and at the same does not care to say the limit of the deal he offers you.

I do not see a way to be  kind to such a behavior,Emusic or any other one

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Ken Brookings on October 30, 2002, 03:33:41 am

Yes, they said unlimited downloads; but perhaps they made a mistake; didn't know that MJ had users that would download 60,000 files just for the fun of collection.  If this mistake would put them out of business shouldn't they try to fix it.  They seem willing to refund money people paid.
MJ makes mistakes and we help them fix them and go on to be an even better product and service.  Why does Emusic deserve nothing but our worst thoughts and actions?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 30, 2002, 04:09:49 am

Go to they site right now:it is still 'unlimited downlads',and at the same they are still canceling people.
They did not refund money.Just the part of the month you are not member anymore.If it was the 15th of the month,they refund you 15 days.

Do you know Emusic is Universal? Are you still a kind of person  having any faith in corporates,and most of all musical ones ?

Few months ago they put Universal music on Emusic-98 % of music on Emusic is indee labels- but downloadable only by people living in USA.

Many people on Emusic are not in the USA,but they have to pay the same than US people.
They answer F..K on  put in polite and nice words.

If they close ,this is not a problem.Indee labels understood and see that music on the web is the way to go.
They will move to another service,dealing only with indee labels not saying 'unlimited downloads' and not as cheap as Emusic..
Concerning music from big labels YOU WILL NEVER EVER get a good and fair deal.
P2p in any kind of brew are here to stay

Beside this downloading 60.000  in 3 months for $15 a month can only put them out of trade ,i agree.
But why ,to this day thet still do not say how much downloads a month is allowed

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on October 30, 2002, 04:41:18 am

zevele,
I agree with kbrookings on this.  He said it very well.  EMusic made a mistake.  Instead of just heaping abuse on them for it, you might try asking them to change.

Saying they are evil won't make them happy.

You've seen people come in here yelling at us and calling us criminals, right?  Did it ever make us want to change anything for them?

Jim

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on October 30, 2002, 05:21:18 am

JimH

Let's say it is the same problem with encoding mp3.
You have to pay for each encoding.
You can sell the jukebox $25 and say unlimited encoding,and disable the mp3 encoding after number x of converting done by the person
And you are a liar and unfair person

You can say $ 25 the jukebox with  number X encoding.
After this $x the x number of encoding.
In this case you are ok.

Emusic does not have to change and really give unlimited downloads.They have to give a deal x downloads/$x a month.

I am downloading right now from a site at $15 one month\1000 songs.And i still feel it is a REAL good deal.

But i'am ready to bet,unless going to court ,they will keep they front page with the 'unlimited download ' head line

Beside this :i really would like to know if someone downloading A LOT only the no 'for US only',i mean not downloading the universal stuff was close.
Do not think that misterX living in country Y is the case,very easy to get the US only stuff from anywhere in the world,do not need to live in USA.
Not my case,i cannot get the 'only US ' stuff.Was not that much i wanted from it to bother.And the very few i got it through nice people on a nice forum......

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Glen on October 30, 2002, 05:26:16 am

Just to add my two cents, if you presume that E-music made a "mistake" in their marketing model that is all well and good. However, for them to go and cancel users who had "abused" the system without sending out a warning/change notice etc. to those and\or all users is not right from any viewpoint. As well, their website is STILL listing unlimited downloads as the norm. If they had/have made a mktg. error then I would expect that to be the first change made as it is the only point of info about their system. I like the idea of being able to dwnld music direct and it would be a shame from the users point of view if companies like this cease to exist, but if they can not do better in setting things up, then maybe they should not be in biz.
Glen.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Ken Brookings on October 30, 2002, 05:51:19 am

Glen, I agree with your thoughtful response.  And Emusic seems a bit heavy handed in its handling of this so far.  And they clearly have an obligation to represent their service honestly.  My only point was that we should show a little restraint and balance in our reaction.  Give them every chance to make good, reward them if they do, abandon the service if they don't.
I doubt very much if the folks operating Emusic are a bad bunch of meanspirited folks who got into this business to rip us off.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on October 30, 2002, 07:05:48 am

They could say me: "ok, michel, our previous business model was wrong, please understand it and please accept to continue with us with a new contract" (for example maximum 1000 files/month).

Instead of that, they said me "michel, we cannot continue with you, please understand it bla bla..."

I understand: They don't plan to change the message "illimited download" so they don't want people who could continue to download a lot of files.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 30, 2002, 07:10:15 am

Emusic has been offering unlimited downloads for at least a year, I believe.  It's hard to see how recent events could have arisen from a "mistake."  They have a huge (albeit financially shaky) corporate parent in Vivendi -- this is not a group of whiz kids sitting around trying to figure out how to change the world.  They could easily have chosen to offer, say, 1,000 downloads for $15 per month.  Instead, they chose a different path.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: townmountain on October 30, 2002, 10:11:39 am

I'm glad I checked in here and found out I'm not the only one recently terminated from EMusic for "excessive downloads."  I went back over their user agreement and there is NOTHING about excessive downloads.  Their "legal" department (yeah, sure ) is basically stonewalling me on it.

At least I won't be paranoid and think I did something criminal or whatever.   To begin with, I'm going to e-mail my state attorney-general about them.   We ought to spread the word on the various mp3 Web sites too.  

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: sekim on October 30, 2002, 02:45:44 pm

Quote

 Give them every chance to make good, reward them if they do, abandon the service if they don't.

Instead they abandoned the paying customers. Per their agreement. How simple can this be?

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: yosISme on October 31, 2002, 07:54:16 am

I for one have NOT been refunded yet, and they stated I would be nearly a week ago.  I see others have, but so far I have not.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: lee269 on October 31, 2002, 09:17:13 am

Ive been following this with interest. Im one of those who has not been terminated yet, but then I only download approx 2 CDs per week.

Emusic have really messed up here. Although I appreciate that perhaps their current model is unsustainable, the way they have gone about things is poor practice.

For me this is reminiscent of my ISP 2 years ago. They realised that their 'unlimited' dial up accounts were unworkable and tried to introduce a 40 MINUTE per day limit in addition to terminating a large number of customers for 'abuse'. Like emusic, they pointed to their terms and conditions when people complained. They lost a lot of customers and dented their reputation considerably. Eventually they redefined their products to allow varying hours connection per week, coupled with an online usage tracker and a flexible system that gives leeway to those who occasionally go over their allocation. Nowadays (for me at least) things are good again. Their products are 'honest' and their service had always been good. It was the way they handled the transition which was very damaging.

Its clear that if emusic pay $0.07 per song downloaded that they cannot sustain large numbers of people downloading thousands of songs per month. I reckon most people realise this. I think the kind of service they are offering, ie no DRM, is valuable. It would be a shame if they went out of business and provided more ammunition to the megacorps. Those who have been summarily terminated have a right to be angry, but I hope emusic have the will - and are given a chance - to rectify their mistakes.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Ken Brookings on October 31, 2002, 09:48:49 am

Lee, thoughtful comments.  I hope you're right and they shape up.  My guess is that in there meeting room back at the Emusic offices they feel under siege and that some of us have found ways to abuse their service.  I think they forgot we're still the customer and see things differently.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on October 31, 2002, 10:21:57 am

A couple of thoughts re the last two postings.  First, Emusic IS a "megacorp" -- it is owned by Vivendi.  Second, press accounts suggest Vivendi is desperate for cash.  See for instance this story in today's New York Times:

MARKET PLACE
Vivendi Is Said to Be Near Sale of Houghton
By SUZANNE KAPNER and ANDREW ROSS SORKIN

Vivendi Universal is planning to sell Houghton Mifflin, the publisher of "Curious George," "The Lord of the Rings" and a wide range of textbooks, to a consortium of financiers led by the Blackstone Group, for about $1.7 billion, executives involved in the discussions said yesterday. . . .

The deal would bolster cash-short Vivendi in its attempt to counter the Vodafone Group in a battle for control of Cegetel, a large French phone company. Both sides covet Cegetel's SFR wireless subsidiary for its fast growth and rich cash flow.

[Rest of the article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/31/business/31PLAC.html ; free registration required.]

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: lee269 on October 31, 2002, 11:31:54 am

IBL: Thanks for the info. I didnt know that - I dont pretend to be clued up on all this stuff. I do know there is a big battle being fought at the moment.

What I was alluding to is that I think that most of us dont want services where your downloads are locked to a single PC/you pay more to burn a la pressplay etc. For me at least, anything that allows the big players to say that other methods have failed is a bad thing. The impression I get from users on this board is that the emusic system is basically providing a service in the way users want - complete freedom  to play the music you paid for in your car, on another PC, on your hifi, archive them onto CD, etc. Those who took the terms at face value are not to blame - Im simply saying that it would be good if emusic could find a way of continuing its current service within a system that allowed it to remain profitable and not alienate its customers as it has done with recent events.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: zevele10 on November 01, 2002, 06:21:24 am

The main part of Emusic who is indee bands on indee labels will stay free.Because as i said many times,they just don't care about indee being on p2p.
If in they power,they will bomb all the indee labels.
Here money is not the problem ,POWER is .
In fact they started to put 1000 [?] from they labels,but loo like they do not put more since long.
Now if you dream about an honest behaviour,you have to know that all the universal music was for people living inside USA.But people outside USA to this day pay the same price than people living inside USA and having acces to a lot of more music.

They answer? It is like it,we know ,we do our best,They had an easy and cheap way to show that they care: giving to people outside USA some albums  from mp3.com.I told it,but.....

Anyway universal is dead,all will fall in pieces.All the american part will be sell in pieces.
For once there is a justice

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: elgibby on November 02, 2002, 05:53:34 am

Well, they haven't learned anything. Got this email this morning:

(http://bgilbert5.home.mindspring.com/graphics/emusic3.jpg)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Nick_LeFave on November 02, 2002, 07:36:37 pm

I have spent a long car trip to Chicago and back thinking about this whole emusic thing. It comes down to this, I get punished if I go back on my word. If I had a contract with you to deliver as many widgets as you desired and on an unlimited basis, then I found out that model did not work for me, I could do a couple of things. 1. Explain the situation offer a new contract which would give the customer what they want but give you want you want to. You would probably have to give the customer some compensation for moving to a new contract (ie. 1000 free deluxe widgets or something). 2. Go out of business. I have been doing some research and have not found a conclusive answer (I am not a lawyer), but the emusic subscription may be a contract because of the time requirements. Emusic may have to grandfather users in my state.

The real truth is if you can't do the business, then get out. I run a small web development business. I know my limits. I don't promise to sell the world, when I know that I cannot deliver you the world. Also, businesses that weasle need to start being punished (ie. Tar and feathered and ran out of town.) No apologies or apologist. Remember, if I sold you a happy ending everytime someone said the article "and", and I didn't deliver, I would be in violation. I couldn't later go back and say well I really meant a "few" happy endings (with the gaul not even to tell you how many desired happy endings would put you into violation) just because I encountered higher cost.

I ramble. I was going to be an apologist for emusic, but it is like an all you can eat buffet. Your Uncle Marcy has the right to eat all he wants until the end of that "dinner" section.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: ibusinesslawyer on November 04, 2002, 09:03:39 am

Vivendi Admits U.S. Investigations
29 minutes ago
By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer

PARIS (AP) - Vivendi Universal acknowledged Monday that it is under investigation by U.S. authorities, a disclosure that comes one week after prosecutors in France announced they were examining whether the company deliberately misled investors.

The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York has opened a preliminary criminal investigation, Vivendi said. The company also said the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (news - web sites)'s Miami office has been carrying out an informal inquiry and is coordinating its activities with the U.S. Attorney.

Full story at http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=530&e=4&cid=530&u=/ap/20021104/ap_on_bi_ge/vivendi_probes

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: sekim on November 04, 2002, 02:14:53 pm

How ridiculous, post my thoughts and they get edited.

Note to self: Reread Fahrenheit 451...

Listening to: 'Madman' from 'Frogstomp' by 'Silverchair' on Media Jukebox

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on November 04, 2002, 02:26:00 pm

You are not autherized to have that book.

Turn your self in, they will be easyer on you.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: sekim on November 04, 2002, 04:35:24 pm

Quote

You are not autherized to have that book.

Turn your self in, they will be easyer on you.

Tell you what. I'll just fade into the blue if this keeps happening. I've been a staunch supporter of MJ since I ran into it. But, this is stupid. Just because a guy has a disagreement about how business should be handled, his post gets edited. If you want an enemy, let me know up front. There are plenty of places where my s h i t will not get edited by the forces that be here. Plain and simple. I still love MJ for what it is. A great organizer of music. But the forums as of late have had a heavy hand. Deal with the way people think that are different from what the powers that be (here). Don't like my thoughts, well I can go somewhere else and post with reckless abandon...

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on November 04, 2002, 04:41:34 pm

You can count on anger and insult getting edited down or out here.  Thoughtful expressions, of which you are certainly as capable as any, are welcome.  

Your choice.

In this case, I'm trying to help give digital delivery of music a chance.  Emusic has a pretty nice service.  It isn't perfect.  I think they need to re-think their marketing.  But, on the whole, it is a good service.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: Charlemagne 8 on November 05, 2002, 04:19:54 pm

King,
Where are the other cars?
(http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/atsf/sfgp60ml.gif)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on November 06, 2002, 02:01:03 pm

>> Charlemagne 8
i can add more cars but the forum limits a user on the lenth i can put into that field.

I found a few web sites where you can build a hole train.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on November 06, 2002, 02:09:24 pm

got link?  ::)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: KingSparta on November 06, 2002, 02:17:34 pm

http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/traingif.htm

(http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/atsf/sfgp60ml.gif)(http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/atsf/sfgp60ml.gif)(http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/priv/tilx301.gif)(http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/priv/tilx301.gif)(http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/bn/bnfe195.gif)(http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/bnsf/bnsf667l.gif)(http://www.djcooley.com/rr/gifs/nokl/nokl730e.gif)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on November 06, 2002, 02:48:20 pm

Thanks!  You for the laugh, and djcooley for the trains.
:) ;)

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: michel on November 07, 2002, 06:02:08 am

For sure, to play with cars or trains in this forum is less annoying for EMusic than to say some embarrassing things about them.

I am sorry if it sounds rude but I don't understand why my two posts disappeared from the "New board for EMusic" thread.

Jim, it is fine you created a forum on this topic (EMusic and other legal services). I understand also you want to fix some limits, I accept that. But that said, re-reading my posts, I fail to understand what these limits are...

May be trains and cars drawing :(

Sorry.

Title: Re: Emusic
Post by: JimH on November 07, 2002, 06:41:43 am

Michel,
I think the other thread was just "cleaned".  I don't think there was a problem with what you said.  That thread was an announcement about the board.

Sometimes we allow threads to change the topic a lot and sometimes we don't.

I'm sorry if you felt it was an error.

Jim