INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 11 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: Matt on November 06, 2003, 12:30:57 pm
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Right now MC always controls the master system volume. It does this because it plays many types of output (audio, DVD, web media, TV) and controlling the master has been the only fail-safe to make sure the volume always works.
However, this approach falls short in a few circumstances:
- multi-zone use -- each zone needs independent volume control possibly tied to different cards / different output types
- there's no way to force MC's output to be louder / quieter than other output (i.e. when playing a game and listening to music)
- some high-end soundcards don't have volume controls because they're designed to be strapped to an amp that handles the volume
So, we're trying to figure out the best solution to the problem. Here are a few ideas to get the ball rolling:
- We could create a DSP layer for controlling volume. It'd be 32-bit and work with any output mode. (ASIO, DirectX, etc.) The downside is that it wouldn't work for non-audio files. (videos, TV, etc.) Also, there'd be the same latency that DSP Studio has. (.2 seconds by default) Perhaps there could be a quick way to switch between this volume and the system master by clicking on the current "Mute" icon. (which would give a menu)
- We could allow each zone to pick a soundcard / soundcard line. This doesn't solve #2 or #3 though.
- We could try to intelligently switch what the volume control controls based on what's playing. The problem with auto-switching is that it may leave users (and programmers) confused.
- You tell us...
So please, help us brainstorm and thanks for any help!
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I sympathise with others and understand why you want to improve this area but, whatever you change, please make it an option of some sort because I like it just the way it is. The reason:
My sound card is connected via the digital out to an AV surround AMP. Therefore I need to set a maximum volume (about 33% seems to be about right) to avoid distortion or damage. It's the WAV volume that I set to 33%. I don't want me or anyone else to be able to change it using the volume slider or my logitech keyboard. At the moment MC and my keyboard both change the master volume which makes perfect sense to me.
If you must change it, like I said I'd appreciate it if it were configurable or, if that's not possible, I'd like an option to disable the volume control within MC.
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Matt,
It's good to see you guys are thinking about this.
For starters, I'd throw out fixed-output, high-end cards. The bottom line is you can't control the volume output from within Media Center. Users of these cards need to find a way to control their output volume at the amplifier and I assure you there are many options available. Bottom line here is, you just can't accomodate...
As it stands right now, you can control the master output of all zones through your volume control and individual zones through the DSP Preamp output control. I believe exposing the DSP preamp output of all zones, all the time should solve your problem. Users could independently control the system master volume and MC's DSP output volume to set zone volume. I also think tying each zone to a soundcard or channel is a necessity (but I'm pretty sure this is happening already - don't quote me on it).
Of course, exposing all of this to an external interface is a must so that you can control DSP preamp output for more than the currently active zone. ;)
Dan
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I will focus on multi zone use with multiple output devices, since I am most familiar with that.
1) tie MC master volume slider to specific sound card volume control that is assigned to that zone. Currently you can manage volume per device within XP, you have to open "Sound and Audio Devices" control panel option and click volume after changing default device under the audio tab. (this is what I do in lieu of MC controlling non-default device volume, annoying but works)
2) Under Playback options->output settings, add checkbox option and slider to set fixed volume setting per output device (this fixes the direct to preamp/amp concerns and locks out volume control from possibly exceeding output limits, as JLee mentioned above)
Programmitically, if this can be done without DSP, that's probably preferable in my opinion.
As far as other media types, I can't comment, don't mess with much beyond music in MC.
--Kurt
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there's no way to force MC's output to be louder / quieter than other output (i.e. when playing a game and listening to music)
This is my largest concern. I often miss OS audio notices (Messenger calls, new mail, etc.) because I have my master volume set to give me appropriate music volume. I was going to play with Girder and use it's volume control to target specific lines, but never got the motivation to get started.
Scott-
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Next build will have an implementation of the first solution listed. It seems to work pretty slick.
Let us know once we get the build out.
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Love the new volume controls. They've spurred me into setting up zone for the first time to make use of the two sound cards I have in my PC. Previously I'd ignored the onboard Nvidia Sound Storm in my Shuttle in favour of the Audigy Player I've got fitted in it. Now I can have a zone for the Audigy when I want to listen through speakers and a second zone with it's own volume control when I want to listen using headphones using the Nvidia sound chip. So far it works exactly as I would expect it too.
The only comment I would have is that it isn't obvious how to enable internal volume. If it hadn't been mentioned in the build thread there's no way I would have thought to right click on the speaker icon.
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It's a left click or right click.
Also, it's in the main menu. (Player > Volume)
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We could create a DSP layer for controlling volume. It'd be 32-bit and work with any output mode. (ASIO, DirectX, etc.) The downside is that it wouldn't work for non-audio files
How about allowing non audio files(specifically mpg's) use the DSP. This would also allow my most required feature of allowing xfading of video clips as well as allowing volume control??
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Hi All,
Not sure how to express my desires in a technical way that speaks SW developers language so, I'll put in system integrator terms.
As you may know I use MC commercially in my music servers, as well as personally on my own system. I tend to use high end sound cards, and as Dan mentioned above, I think it is hopeless for any form of SW control of volume on those devices. But in certain lower cost systems I do use more run of the mill devices. In those scenarios, it would be most beneficial for me to have control of each zone independant of the other no matter what zone was active on the console. That control should be accessible via the remote control API, not just the console. If I had that, each soound device's output could drive a power amp directly and not require any pre-amp stage. With a straight forward multi channel amp and my box, I could deliver a relatively simple, yet complete multi zone solution at very affordable prices.
Net result = I get to buy more MC licenses
;)
Edit: It appears that you have already implemented this just like I wanted it to be, thanks!
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John, play with the latest build as I think it does what you want. Just set the volume to "Internal Volume" for all the zones.
You can issue volume commands straight to specific zones if you use MCC commands just like you can with other zone specific commands.
How about allowing non audio files(specifically mpg's) use the DSP. This would also allow my most required feature of allowing xfading of video clips as well as allowing volume control??
Passing other playback's audio through MC's audio engine may happen in version 10. The code is mostly written, but we don't have time to finish it for 9.x.
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An icon change might be helpful as you switch from one mode to the next...
Worked fine for me. Only point I can comment was that volume reduction/increase was a bit *choppy* and did not really match the rate at which I moved the slider... Though could have just been me...
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Worked fine for me. Only point I can comment was that volume reduction/increase was a bit *choppy* and did not really match the rate at which I moved the slider... Though could have just been me...
There'll be some latency that's adjustable in Options > Playback > Advanced. (but read the note in there about side effects)
A fast computer normally only needs like 0.2 seconds or less of primary buffering with MC.
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As long as I can have an option to setup "no volume control" for my highend sound card I'll be happy.
I am in the process of learning girder to figure out how to control it through the RME Total Mix Panel, as it does have a stepless volume control. But at the moment, it's a slow process.
kiwi
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Thanks Matt & Co.,
that was a long-time asked feature request - after some fiddling around now works perfectly.
Now, there is only one feature missing in this area, combining multiple zones to one single zone to get the "sound follow me" effect. So if I move from one room to the other I hear the same sound from different zones.
And maybe, tying multiple monitors to specific zones like monitor 1 displaying cover art for track playing on zone 1 and monitor 2 displaying cover art playing on zone 2 !
Thinking this further I could make presentations by showing a video on one beamer and run a slide show on another beamer, all this managed by MC on a single notebook!
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Very nice.
Only downside to internal volume is it means my keyboard no longer controls the volume for MC. I'm glad you have it as an option.
What'd be VERY nice would be to include this into the GUI somehow.
One thing I was thinking is the AW - create a screen in here that lets us control the audio maybe?
(just while mentioning that - it'd be SOOOOO cool if there was a screen in there for controling the visual appearance of MC - the new options and skin??)
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First of all thanks for getting to this! I have probably been nagging a bit about it , but it's a function I really needed, especially for my car, since the headphones there are connected directly to the soundcard! I haven't had the time to try it out yet, but I will this weekend. What I would like to say is that in my opinion the DSP-solution would be very nice, but the sound card adjustment by tying zones to sound cards and sound cards channels (remember kX Project Drivers, where you can have three independent zones for each SB Live! 5.1 or Audigy - I love those!). Actually if possible a choice between them would be smashing, as our british friends would say.
Oh, another thing, is this related? Using the equalizer through NetRemote only controls zone 1, no matter which zone's the active. It would be nice to be able to control those independantly.
Finally there's the question of control: I use IR remotes through Girder (since Girder controls many other things) with Windows messages. I suppose that will be the way to remote control this as well. The most important thing for me is that I can control the zones without having to make the controlled zone the active zone, like Play Zone 1 and so on. But you have already thought of that, right?
Thanks again for removing my probably biggest annoyance with the world's best media player! ;D
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but it's a function I really needed, especially for my car, since the headphones there are connected directly to the soundcard!
You use headphones in your car???
I hope they are at least Senn's, so that there's a chance that you can hear approaching Police/Fire/Ambulances.
kiwi
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No, I don't. I use the headunit. My kids use headphones in the back seat to listen to their music and audio books.
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;)
Figured that was the case... couldn't resist though...
That said, I've actually seen people driving with headphones on...
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Very nice......... I'm glad you have it as an option........
I knew you'd love this.... ;D