INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 11 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: JimH on January 08, 2004, 08:48:23 am
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We've seen some requests for increasing the size of the search window. We'd like to change this, but can you explain what you want? Or a link to an existing thread on this?
Thanks.
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Relocation would allow for sizing changes...
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=17089
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We don't have total flexibility on where the window is, but we may be able to do something.
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This is just a quick and dirty representation, but it would work for me. About 500-600% larger than current default. In this position, I don't think it should be expandible. For those that need that, perhaps a popup to keep the interface clean?
http://www.glows.com/mediacenter_examples/mc_searchv1.jpg (http://www.glows.com/mediacenter_examples/mc_searchv1.jpg)
Since the search acts as a filter for everything from the panes down, I placed it above the panes. Seems pretty logical moving top to bottom:
1. search filter
2. Then panes filter
3. then results....
I added the text "Search" to make it clearer to the new user what the mysterious bar was for, style and or word could be changed.
Just one possibility...
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This is just a quick and dirty representation,
i like it :)
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The swallows always return to Capestrano...
Quisp's placement is where 9.0 had it many moons ago (well, sometimes), which seems to be the best spot. If smartlist creation/editing could be handled like View Schemes are now, then the size of the Search Box is not so critical (but placement of said is...IMO).
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i like the dirty represenatation too, just like it was, just made more sense for me.
Rich
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Agree with the representation. It could also be made so that it appeared on a click that way panes would look as they were and when the search button was clicked the searcbar slides down...like iTunes does with their panes...
Adam
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As I said, we don't have full flexibility in where it goes.
What about size?
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OK...but you really can't do anything about the size if it stays in it's current position...can you? When "We don't have total flexibility on where the window is" is taken into account, then where can it go? Does it have to stay in the "curved bezel portion"...as it is now?
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We don't have total flexibility on where the window is...
who has? ;D
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Apparently there is a defined structure or grid that is dictating where things go and how they work, etc. If we knew what our options were, it would save a lot of time rather than having to guess with, "How about here? no? What about here? No?" - Know?
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Apparently there is a defined structure or grid that is dictating where things go and how they work, etc. If we knew what our options were, it would save a lot of time rather than having to guess with, "How about here? no? What about here? No?" - Know?
Don't shout "Jehova" - It may hurt... ;)
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I Don't Care Where It Goes
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And It Should Remember What I Typed Into It When I Go Someplace And Then Back Again.
Please...
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I Don't Care Where It Goes
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And It Should Remember What I Typed Into It When I Go Someplace And Then Back Again.
The next build will remember where you left your socks.
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As possibly the easiest change, I like the v9 placement, ie 'quick and dirty'.
This get a bit philosophical from here on, but I really liked the way that Sam envisioned it here (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=18037) with his search/filter area. I dont think its exactly what Sam had in mind, but I think a vertical search area which puts a criterion on each row gives a nicer visual representation of the 'filtering' effect than a bar. Maybe it would fit better within the UI constraints? It would pretty much cover all the basic searches I do, but not so good if your search includes lots of brackets, ANDs and ORs though.
The philosophy is the difference between a 'filter' (=view scheme?) and a 'search' (=subsearch). The mechanism is the same for both, and so I think the interface should be the same, even if one is in a dialog and one is on the main window. I start to babble when I think of this too much, as you can tell, but I thought Sam expressed it visually very well - much better than I am doing. I really think this is a fundamental MC strength, though, and one of the most crucial things to get right in the interface. Constraints permitting, it should have as much space as it needs.
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I Don't Care Where It Goes
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And It Should Remember What I Typed Into It When I Go Someplace And Then Back Again.
The next build will remember where you left your socks.
Thats why i have about 50 Pairs of socks so i don't need to keep up with them and they are all white in case i lose one it matters not.
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Mine are all black so I don't have to wash them...
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Mine are all black so I don't have to wash them...
Do they have the right size? Remember those Red Hot Chili Peppers performances.... :-X
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Can you move the Media Mode buttons?
I'm just thinking that if you shrunk the display window down (where it shows the currently playing track), then you could make the search bar bigger. But then the media mode buttons would look kind of odd. So moving them to over the tree (where it really makes the most sense in my mind) would help with that.
Whatever you do, I really hope the search bar just winds up big enough to actually be usefull. It's almost pointless in its current state, especially given that it's also the only way to edit a smartlist.
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How about moving the search box to the opposite side, so it is next to the play buttons, and move the media mode buttons like Doof said to over the tree.
Rich
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And It Should Remember What I Typed Into It When I Go Someplace And Then Back Again
It does. Use the back command. (backspace or back mouse button)
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OK, another idea based on some of the suggestions above.
Again, quick and dirty, like my socks...
http://www.glows.com/mediacenter_examples/mc_searchv2.jpg (http://www.glows.com/mediacenter_examples/mc_searchv2.jpg)
1. Media Mode buttons are above the tree. This seems to make the most sense since clicking on these buttons has an immediate, and within your visual focus, effect on the tree. Also, look how easy it would be to create a pseudo tab like tie-in to the rest of the interface. Seems like a lot of confusion as mentioned in other threads would be lessoned by making a strong visual link to the changing of modes and the changing of interface. Also, since the mode buttons are next to the tree, users will be more likely to see that the tree is "filtered" when the mode buttons are selected. (I must admit that it took me a couple of days to figure out what the big deal was with the mode buttons, because I completely missed how it was effecting the tree and other parts of the screen.)
2. Play buttons moved to the right. I mainly did this for visual balance. If they were above or below the relocated mode buttons the screen would get too busy and crowded.
3. Search remains where it was before, if possible. Bigger and placed in what I think is the most logical position, not taking into consideration, technical/physical issues I'm not aware of behind the scenes. I forgot to change the search header to reflect the way it works now. I like the fact that the search text acts as a head and then disappears once you begin to use the search box. Even more room for searching.
One other thought, if the Zone indicater were made less prominent/ didn't take up a line, then the progress meter, artist playing, etc. box could be made vertically narrower and maybe the search bar could go under this. Might be a little visually confusing, but I'm sure that could be worked out with a nice three-d blue outline effect of some sort...
Edit: Option 3: http://www.glows.com/mediacenter_examples/mc_searchv3.jpg (http://www.glows.com/mediacenter_examples/mc_searchv3.jpg)
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Quisp's comments and mockups are mostly in line with my own thoughts about placement of UI elements. Put controls near the things they control.
With regard to mockups 2 and 3, I don't like the move of the play control buttons to the right. I see this attempt to keep things "clean" in a few UI designs, and I understand the motivations, but I think they are sometimes misguided. Increasing the distance to frequently accessed targets and widely separating primary controls is not necessarily a good thing. IMO, the v3 mockup would be sweet with the play controls returned to their current position. The volume slider acts as a simple delineator between the play controls and the media mode buttons.
With apologies to Quisp for "liberating" his mockup, something like this would be fine with me:
http://69.73.147.182/mc/mc_searchv3_phelt-mod.jpg
Obviously more effort would have to go into the spacing, delineation, etc. but I think it's it's fairly logical in terms of grid layout and control positioning.
I'm sincerely not trying to be a smart*ss, but I am puzzled by JimH's comment that they do not have "full flexibility" in positioning of the search bar. It used to be in a different place, then it got moved, so I guess I don't understand why it can't be moved again in a beta for a full version change.
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phelt, change the media mode buttons into tabs and I think it's perfect :)
-John
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The only thing I use the Search bar for is occasionally altering smartlist rules, so it's size is not that important to me. Although, it would be nice to have it be a little bigger, but I really, really dislike how the autosizing of the Search bar makes the track info/zone display smaller. Since I rarely use Playing Now view, I have the track info/zone display configured to show most of the info that would normally be shown in a Playing Now Track Info visualization and the autosizing of the Search bar messes this up.
So, my vote is to find a way to make the Search bar bigger that doesn't include autosizing or making the track info/zone display smaller.
Rob
edit: Just took a look at phelt's mockup, and it looks like the perfect solution to me. :)
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Hi skeeterfood,
May I ask why tabs, particularly? Is it for better state indication (ie, this is the thing that's currently selected)? I'm not disagreeing, it's just that might always be a better way... sometimes tabs can be slightly busy/wasteful in a small area. Perhaps button highlighting to indicate selection? Please elucidate.
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both look good to me.
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May I ask why tabs, particularly? Is it for better state indication (ie, this is the thing that's currently selected)? I'm not disagreeing, it's just that might always be a better way... sometimes tabs can be slightly busy/wasteful in a small area. Perhaps button highlighting to indicate selection? Please elucidate.
Actually, I don't really care if it's tabs, or something else, as long as I can easily see what mode I have selected. Right now, there are only minor changes to the tree (nowhere near the button you pushed) that show you actually did something. The feedback on the mode change needs to be tied closely to the button you pushed and be easily visible at all times...
-John
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rocketsauce> How are you seeing the search bar autosize? It doesn't autosize for me at all. It's always only as wide as the Media Mode buttons. If it were to autosize based on what search criteria are in there, or based on what I type, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As it is, it's completely unuseable.
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rocketsauce> How are you seeing the search bar autosize? It doesn't autosize for me at all. It's always only as wide as the Media Mode buttons. If it were to autosize based on what search criteria are in there, or based on what I type, I wouldn't have a problem with it. As it is, it's completely unuseable.
It does re-size. Maybe the skin you're using?
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Oh, I see... it DOES resize itself when I type a search into it.
And when displaying a smartlist... at least it is here...
I'm so confused. I'm positive it doesn't do this at home.
But then again, I'm using 10.0.28 here at work, and 10.0.30 at home.
So is this a difference due to the different versions I'm using? I could have sworn it's been acting like this for far longer than .28...
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It's been one of those days, I think.
I know for a fact there was one point where I was trying to edit a smartlist and I couldn't because the search bar was so small and I couldn't get to all of the search criteria.
Am I remembering this wrong? Or was this the case at one point?
And if it was, when did it change?
I don't know... maybe I didn't have the window sized so small that it wasn't resizing.
Regardless... forget everything I've said in here. As long as it does this, I'm content.
I think I need a nap.
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phelt,
your mockup is great.... large enough search bar and the media buttons where they belong (in my opinion...). skeeterfood's comment about making it more obvious which mode is currently selected would even improve it.
(and can we please have that media mode be sticky again?)
Ingo
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I really like Phelts modification of Quisps modification. ;D
As far as Jim's question about size, with all of the different available variables, you really need a search box that can display something like 4 or 5 of the search criteria at a time. Scrolling through the search box to find the variable that you want to change is beyond annoying, it makes it useless.
The mode buttons really should be over the tree area. And can we have a different Icon for the ALL mode.
i'm starting to get off topic, so I will stop here.
Thanks for listening. Can't wait to see what you come up with.
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I never did like where it is now. Takes too much space for one and not enough space to see what you're typing. I'd rather have no search window than a small one where it is now.
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phelt, change the media mode buttons into tabs and I think it's perfect :)
-John
Agreed!
Edit: Though I still would be a bit worried that it would be too easy to click accidentally on one of the media mode buttons while adjusting the volume, but spacing can easily be tweaked. My reasoning behind putting the play buttons on the left were many, one being workflow order, but I admit I'm coming from a western mindset--top to bottom, left to right.
phelt, Nice job! I like the balance a lot better than any of my other mockups.
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Yeah, I think phelt's mockup is ideal. IMHO, that's where the media mode buttons should be.
I also really like the suggestion of being able to hide the search bar in that mockup with a toggle-type button. Like the "Find" button in Outlook XP and 2003.
crow
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I just have to ask..
Use the back command. (backspace or back mouse button)
Matt , What is a back mouse button?
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I have to agree with rocketsauce, whilst I like the fact that the search bar now autosizes, I dislike it completing with playing now info... not only can it block text, but also looks visually inconsistent to me (having the playing now info constently resizing).
I'm not sure where it -can- go, but as for size - if it's going to be locked in size, it should be at least 3-4 variables wide if not more... however I love the placement of it over the panes (eg phelt's mockup), since this makes full use of window width & -seems- (with my limited knowledge) a more logical position for it (and doesn't really compete with anything else.)
I also agree that the 'Media Mode' buttons should be placed over the tree, I think this would make the changes more obvious to beginning users. Oh, and having the play buttons on the left too... so basically phelt's mockup of Quisp's mockup :) (basically I very rarely venture over the far right of the screen, so I only want rarely used functions over there, eg maxamise, min, close, dsp, filters, etc... not the play buttons... nor the search bar).
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I just have to ask..
Use the back command. (backspace or back mouse button)
Matt , What is a back mouse button?
I was wondering the same thing, and i guess i don't have one since nothing i do can bring up what was once typed into the search bar.
So maybe he was pulling our leg
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A back mouse button is a button on the mouse that's been configured to issue the Internet Back command. Many of the newer mice (with more than 2 buttons) allow you to configure what the 3rd (and 4th, 5th, etc) buttons do.
For instance... my mouse has 8 buttons on it.
So I have the following command configured:
Left Click
Right Click
Double Click
Back
Forward
PgUp
PgDn
Task Switch
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Please, This Reminds Me Of The Game Twister From The 60's
That Was Fun When Played With A Bunch Of Girls.
Buying a new Mouse with 45 buttons just to remember what was typed into a search don't sould like the same game.
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some programs use windows that can be moved, docked and removed so the user can move the windows around to meet there needs.
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http://69.73.147.182/mc/mc_searchv3_phelt-mod.jpg
I also think it would be a perfect solution for the next version. (And a sticky media mode again please...)
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Anyway, for me, I've always felt that the huge "Playing Now" area (with the location bar, the shuffle and repeat buttons, and song info) is a huge wast of screen real estate. There is always a ton of space both to the left and right of the text in that box.
It all depends on how you have the display configured:
(http://members.dslextreme.com/users/res1223/rocketsauce/mcdisplay.gif)
The display area is far more useful to me and I would hate to see it get smaller. I rarely use the Search bar.
Rob
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KingSparta:
Buying a new Mouse with 45 buttons just to remember what was typed into a search don't sound like the same game.
Note he said "backspace or the back button".
Use the back command. (backspace or back mouse button).
You -should- have a backspace key on the keyboard... I've tested it, it brings back the text... however it also brings back the previous view scheme. I believe you were looking for something that remembers the text and allows you to change the view scheme, no?
PS: The internet back button on the mouse can be replicated with "alt-left cursor" ("alt-right cursor" for the forward button).
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It is not easily scanable to a users eyes.
Well it is much easier to read when it's full size rather than shrunk down to fit into this forum.
That much data would be better served in the Playing Now Window
That's the whole point. I can see relevant info about the currently playing track, see which tracks have been added to Playing Now (via the action window), and still browse my library. There's really no reason to have to switch to the Playing Now view. :)
Rob
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Smart idea!
Pity we cant make Track Info pages to define what shows there and how :)
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I can't get the "my sox are black so I don't have to wash them" comment out of my head! :o
-=Tim=-
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I'd want it formatted a bit more.
Sure, a little more control over formatting would be nice, say being able to specify text color or other attributes like bold, italic or underline or maybe a background color or image, but that's about it. Configuration of the track/zone display area should remain as simple as possible.
The area in the top just isn't enough...
I think it's more than enough. I certainly don't want it taking up anymore vertical space. Anything more than that and you might as well just switch to Playing Now with a track info vis that takes up a third of your screen.
Rob
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On a side note, lots of things should be able to be turned off....if you only do audio, why have the 4 mode icons?...if you don't search, why see the search box...if you don't use the action window, why slow everything down by having it show? That kind of functionality is what makes software packages like Dreamweaver, Photoshop, and the like powerful. Even Winamp and MediaPlayer allow the user to turn off items they don't want to see.
=-=-=-=-=-=My feling is that they through that it is better to put a max on the front...like it idiot users like me will know it is here..
But ,in fact it gives the opposite result , it is very confusing.
MC remeans me coffee table in old women flat : it is full of pictures , little porcelaines ect ect .
If you just want to put you cup of tea on it , there is no room
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Any word on when or if the search window will be changed?
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We don't have total flexibility on where the window is, but we may be able to do something.
Huh?
You guys write the software and draw your own screen windows don't you have total control over everything here?
I am confused . . . again.
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We don't have total flexibility on where the window is, but we may be able to do something.
You guys write the software and draw your own screen windows don't you have total control over everything here?
It's a long story.
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It's a long story.
LOL, OK wanna tell me over a cup of coffee?? ;D
I'll buy!
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I liked phelt's mockup, it is a step in the right direction.
However, the problem with a small search box comes in when building long Smartlist definitions - it's like doing keyhole surgery! I have a 42" screen, and I'm using a 1" x 3" area in the corner to write smartlists!
What would be *perfect* would be a searchbox as per phelt's mockup AND a smartlist wizard like the one in iTunes or Winamp5.
With a bit more work on Hairstyle, I have no further feature requests, really.
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And It Should Remember What I Typed Into It When I Go Someplace And Then Back Again
It does. Use the back command. (backspace or back mouse button)
Well, I for one don't use a back mouse button - not everyone has one. Jumping to a keyboard where the point and click thing is so well integrated doesn't make sense either. I appreciate the concept of not to have too many methods to do something, however keyboard shortcuts should be only an accelerator, not just the only interface for a function (particularly one that well known in web-browser interfaces).
I'd really appreciate it if we had the old gui bar to do that (and also the customisable functions - although I know this is going back on old ground).
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It's a long story.
Seems to be common these days for J River to tell us that things are out of their hands. Complaints about icons were "not open for discussion". A request for a change to the Replay Gain was met with "no, sorry". And now this. What with all the talk of a big announcement a few months back, it's pretty clear that the product has been sold on to someone somewhere (presumably some sort of online music store) but it's increasingly frustrating to find that the people who write the software don't have control over where it goes.
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It's a long story.
Seems to be common these days for J River to tell us that things are out of their hands. Complaints about icons were "not open for discussion". [.... and so on]
Maybe we've been too open in our development. Would you rather not hear anything? I'd be glad to stop answering detailed questions about what we're going to do.
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I'd rather hear what you ARE going to do, rather than simply shooting people's constructive suggestions down in flames for no reason other than "there's something going on that we're not tell you about".
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the feedback this forum allows, in both directions. But it seems increasingly that perfectly good suggestions are dismissed out of hand for reasons that are never properly explained.
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can we stop the bickering?
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can we stop the bickering?
Why? What's your point? ;)
So did you see George Bush in Atlanta?
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So did you see George Bush in Atlanta?
I was in class the whole time I was down there from 07:30-5:00Pm then I had home work. That was basically looking at a stack of paper that was about 10inches tall (A branch P&L) for a branch in F.L. and figure out what was wrong with it.
Basically it was off $250,000 in sales, Employee turnover and allowances sucked.
>> George Bush in Atlanta
Was all over the news down there.
The only thing I saw was the Highway signs, And the Company HQ as I was driving out trying to get out of there.
We stayed in a “Sleep Inn” 6 floors, it was nice they sent beer to the room everyday. I had to give my beer to someone else and drank diet coke. They had internet in the rooms, but i don't have a laptop. i did use the desktop computer they had there to get online.
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But it seems increasingly that perfectly good suggestions are dismissed out of hand for reasons that are never properly explained.
Just because in the past J River has chosen to be open about their development process, the reasons why certain decisions are made and incorporating user suggestions into MC does not mean they are obligated to continue doing so.
Rob
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But it seems increasingly that perfectly good suggestions are dismissed out of hand for reasons that are never properly explained.
Just because in the past J River has chosen to be open about their development process, the reasons why certain decisions are made and incorporating user suggestions into MC does not mean they are obligated to continue doing so.
Rob
Erm ... they did ask us:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=17389
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Sure, they did ask. Probably many of those suggestions will eventually find their way in to MC too. However, I would still say they are not obligated, nor is it feasable for them to explain with detailed reasons why every feature request/suggestion is or is not going to implemented. In this thread, Jim has said twice that they don't have "total flexibility on where the window is". That should be enough. Whether or not he chooses to share the more detailed reasons why is up to him.
Rob
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However, I would still say they are not obligated, nor is it feasable for them to explain with detailed reasons why every feature request/suggestion is or is not going to implemented.
I agree but we are not asking for detailed reasons for "every feature request/suggestion" ... just why the developers of the software cannot put back the functionality they removed. If the number of responses on this subject is anything to go by it is a feature used by a lot paying customers hence J River should take note or risk alienating said customers.
In this thread, Jim has said twice that they don't have "total flexibility on where the window is". That should be enough.
Only if J River has the commercial or cash capabilities of Microsoft ... but they do not. They need to listen to customers or else no-one will buy their software.
It looks like they are writing the software for someone else now or maybe even looking to sell the code on. Users opinions no longer matter, which for an independant software vendor is a brave or foolish attitude to take depending on your point of view.
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Jamie,
I'm the CEO of the company. It's Saturday morning at 7:30. I'm listening.
We don't do everything you want because we sometimes don't agree and we sometimes have other requirements that conflict.
And sometimes you don't agree with each other.
Then sometimes we just haven't gotten around to it.
Jim
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Jamie,
I'm the CEO of the company. It's Saturday morning at 7:30. I'm listening.
Thanks, Jim. The fact that you are listening is just great and seriously appreciated by me!
If there is anyone out there who still doesn't understand - we already are getting some of the very best support I've seen from a commercial software development company!
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The latest beta of 10 has a larger search bar.
Smartlists have a separate, full width search bar.
If you commonly need a wide search bar, keep a temporary smartlist around and use it.
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:'( ... it's ... beautiful ...
You've got a winner here, Matt. Perfect size for general searches now that smartlist criteria's have been decoupled (makes the location work, too). To top all that off, it does exactly what it should, that is, it allows you to (easily) drill down deeper in any view scheme / playlist / smartlist without destroying the very foundation that the list and society in general is built on.
I love you man! (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/style_images/1/icon12.gif)(http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/style_images/1/icon12.gif)(http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/style_images/1/icon12.gif)
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