INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 11 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: John Gateley on November 29, 2004, 04:07:35 pm
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Media Receivers are boxes that sit next to your stereo or TV, and play music/photos from your computer on the stereo/TV. They are nice because getting your computer music collection to your stereo doesn't require a computer sitting next to it.
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John,
can you specify how MC11 is or is going to work together with Media Receivers such as Sony Roomlink or others?
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MC currently can stream to a Sony Roomlink. It's similar to the way MC streams to a TiVo.
In either case, the user can choose content and start playback on their TV.
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TiVo HMO
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Pinnacle Show Center:
http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20031205/index.html (http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20031205/index.html)
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This is an area I was about to ask about.
I currently use a squeezebox to stream my collection of WMA files (ripped using MC10/MC11). The only problem is the squeezebox doesn't have a TV output to browse my files and also has to use it's own server (thus it's own database) to serve the files, so playlists etc I have created in MC aren't available.
Other than using another PC in my lounge running MC, is there any other Media Receiver that I can use to browse on my TV to listen/view the audio and photos etc that I have stored/catalogued in MC11 and have access to the MC11 playlists/smartlists I have created?
Or do all the current media receivers have to run their own "server" and thus have their own databases?
I have read that a few people have modified the Micro$oft XBox to run other apps, has anybody tried to do this to run a MC client? (Bit like the Media Centre Extender available for Micro$oft Media Center 2005 I guess)
Sorry if these are "dumb" questions, I just don't quite understand how I can serve my files including playlists etc using MC11's Library Server without having another PC in the lounge (which I'd like to avoid).
Cheers
Richard
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My answer would be: the first one that thinks about putting 2 decoders inside so i can crossfade tracks.....
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I currently use a squeezebox to stream my collection of WMA files (ripped using MC10/MC11). The only problem is the squeezebox doesn't have a TV output to browse my files and also has to use it's own server (thus it's own database) to serve the files, so playlists etc I have created in MC aren't available.
I also run a Slimdevices Squeezebox and love it, though it would be nice to have an option to hook it to a TV, but I like the standalone capability too. I prefer not having to keep a television on just to browse, so it works well for me.
Regardless of that, however, I wanted to mention that you CAN get to the Media Center playlists indirectly with the Squeezebox by exporting them to a directory and letting the slimserver know where they are located. It requires some extra steps to setup, but it works well to gain access to them. FWIW.
-PVWhalen
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Which Media Receiver do you use (or would like to use)?
I've been waiting for MC support of any of the first three wireless units (Netgear, Linksys or Creative) - when one is supported (just like my TiVo), I will buy two; one for my garage workshop and one for my bedroom. I'm glad you're asking the question... ;D
M
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We really want to support these devices, but it looks like there is no clear leader. Unless it's TiVo.
Here are some links for these devices:
http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=631&scid=38 (http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=631&scid=38)
http://www.netgear.com/products/details/MP101.php (http://www.netgear.com/products/details/MP101.php)
Here's one from Creative that I hadn't seen until this week:
http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=243&subcategory=247&product=9192 (http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=243&subcategory=247&product=9192)
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We really want to support these devices, but it looks like there is no clear leader. Unless it's TiVo.
Here are some links for these devices:
http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=631&scid=38 (http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=631&scid=38)
http://www.netgear.com/products/details/MP101.php (http://www.netgear.com/products/details/MP101.php)
Here's one from Creative that I hadn't seen until this week:
http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=243&subcategory=247&product=9192 (http://www.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=243&subcategory=247&product=9192)
Very bad reviews of the lynksys on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002229JQ/102-3906671-9320944?v=glance
Hmm. I wonder if any of these supports ogg... that is most of my collection.
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I wonder if any of these supports ogg... that is most of my collection.
Maybe www.slimdevices.com ?
But we can convert files on the fly. We do it for TiVo, so you can keep your collection in lossless, but still stream to a device that plays MP3.
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I'd love to run Sony Roomlink. Does anyone know whether this also streams APE lossless audio files ??
Many thanks
BB
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We've got a version that works with Sony Roomlink. I'm not sure whether it can convert. Drop an e-mail to gateley @ jriver.com to ask.
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Squeezebox here.
I wish there was some way for MC to control my Squeezebox...that would be the perfect marraige of my favorite software and hardware.
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As I wrote in another thread (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=23771 (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=23771)) I recently installed a Terratec "NOXON Audio" UPnP AV device. It works with multiple UPnP servers (but not MC11) so maybe it's a good testing device for the UPnP compliance of the MC server plugin.
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How come you don't even list the Apple Airport Express on your list? You might even find a "clear leader" if you did that. . .
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I use TiVo because, MC suppports it, I've got everything in APE format, my collection is on the third floor, TV/stereo is on the first floor.
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Implement UPNP...
Several devices can use that...
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Squeezebox here, too. It would be great if MC could be used as its server and treat it as another zone...
I used to use Tivo HMO, but navigation was very weak, as well as its analog-only output.
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The main disadvantage of media receivers is that they have their own interfaces, which in most cases are quite simplistic. It might be useful if you go the standard way, but if you start using the very flexible tagging of MC11 and the flexibility of its database and start creating your own view schemes, then its usefulness comes pretty soon to an end.
I wonder why J River is not trying to cooperate with one of those company and offer their product on one of those boxes? But maybe it is one of those secret plans that J River has in their pockets.
So, in my opinion a cheap barebone pc or a silent pc in the living room, although more expensive, would give a far better functionality. Then you can run MC11 on top of it.
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The main disadvantage of media receivers is that they have their own interfaces, which in most cases are quite simplistic. It might be useful if you go the standard way, but if you start using the very flexible tagging of MC11 and the flexibility of its database and start creating your own view schemes, then its usefulness comes pretty soon to an end.
Exactly that is one of the advantages of UPnP AV, because here the server can define the options available through the client's interface. Clients that have their own interface to access media mostly have a limited choice of options and often cannot be updated. With UPnP the available options are defined by the server and can be modified simply by changing the server side.
I now use the free TwonkyVision music server for my NOXON client which structures the music files in several (sub-) categories derived from filenames and tags. When MediaCenter supports UPnP AV it can (and should) provide access to all it's files, playlists, and view schemes on any UPnP client.
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Apple Airport Express
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I use Tivo HMO.
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Linksys and showcentre seem to be popular in the UK - a number of my friends have them. Some are using MC and saving their playlists to .m3u files. Seems to work pretty well on the linksys.
I'm going the whole hog and will be building a HTPC in the next couple of months...... Please see main thread if you have any recommendations.
Laffer
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I agree with Jaguu. I used to review every media reciever as soon as it came on the market hoping to find one I liked that supported lossless audio, had a decent TV interface (most of them are really poor - forcing, for example, to page through every song to get to the one you want!), and a digitial audio interface. Working with MC would have been a very nice-to-have. I finally gave up and just made the HTPC plunge.
A used Celeron PC can be had for $200 - same price as most of these media recievers - allows you to just run MC and be done with it. Plus, you can check email, surf the web, listen to streaming music, whatever.
I have a cheap $23 Chaintech audio card in my HTPC that sends lossless audio to my pre/pro via toslink: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?postid=2170297#post2170297 (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?postid=2170297#post2170297)
And a cheap $36 ATI 7000 series fanless card with TV-out connected to my RPTV. My RPTV is just standard def and I was worried about how it would look, but by simply kicking up the font size in MC and running the card at 800x600 it is very useable. And, for web surfing, a simple CNTRL + kicks up the font size in Mozilla.
Finally, add this $17 keyboard with integrated pointing device: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=23-107-114&depa=0 (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=23-107-114&depa=0) I was about to drop $150 on a nice RF keyboard when I found this. It works great! It is the right size - not too big not too small - and fits nicely in your hand and has excellent range. And it works with up to +/- 40 degrees or more in any direction. The IR receiver is fairly small and black and has a long USB cable so you can stash is within view even if your HTPC is well out of view.
My $0.02 Hope some of you consider this. Way more flexible than any of those media recievers.
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I have done the same after waiting for a long time for a decent receiver. I already have an HTPC in the living room but wanted a receiver in the bedroom.
Ended up using a very old, slow laptop for the job - which is great, but VERY noisy when you are not listening to music (and far too slow to put into suspend and back again).
So i'd still like a receiver that works as a full MC client....
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Concerning audio:
Anyone knows the new NOXON Audio (http://productsen.terratec.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=228&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=f1c1d9fd8d39de910dfaebf9826edfad)[/u]?
The price seems to be very interesting, around Euro 90 ($120). And they offer two UPnP media server alternatives to MusicMatch.
Any experiences here?
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For anyone contemplating such a product, I would advise against the current Linksys 802.11b version. I had very bad interface issues. They replaced mine twice with no resolution. I spent over 6 months working with their tech support and with two of their Senior Technical Support Engineers. The key problem was that I could not make the media server connect securely over a relatively short path. It would connect non-secure, but not secure. I have 3 other wireless devices that connect securely to my SMC, including 2 Linksys PCMCIA cards and an D-Link card.
As an additional note, even though their own tech support personnel admitted they could not make the Linksys Media Adapter interface with my SMC wireless router, it took me an additional 4 months for me to convince them allow me to return the product and to finally cut me a check to get my money back. They kept insisting on sending me replacements, but after I tried a total of 3 units with the same results, I just didn't have any patience left.
The product is probably fine when working with another Linksys product, but it definitely didn't work with SMC. Also, the customer service support left much to be desired, the worst I've experienced in a very long time.
BB
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MC currently can stream to a Sony Roomlink. It's similar to the way MC streams to a TiVo.
In either case, the user can choose content and start playback on their TV.
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I'm still trying to get my head around all of this....
If I was to purchase a UPnP compatible Media Receiver and MC11 Library Server was UPnP compliant, then I could browse my playlists and views created in MC11 from the Media Receiver?
If so, I guess the question is are there plans to make the MC Library Server UPnP compliant? JimH??
I was looking at the D-Link DSM-320 to replace my Squeezebox in the lonunge so I can hava a TV interface, but would really like to have the views/playlists setup in MC served to it rather than having to run D-Links server and front end.
Richard
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Hacked XBOX running XBOX Media Center: http://www.xboxmediacenter.de/
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i use a HTPC (via powerline-lan) with win xp, mc10 (as a client for media server), girder & netremote + dell axim x30.
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I run everything through my hacked Xbox using Xbox Media Center.
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Zensonic here in Australia has just announced their new Z500 device.
Looks very interesting. Not available until March 2005, but the Z400 is available now, and supports UPnP.
http://www.zensonic.com.au/press_z500.php
Richard
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I am working on a UPnP implementation. Unfortunately, squeezeboxes are not UPnP based.
Also, while many devices are based on UPnP, they all seem to have their own individual quirks
in the protocol, so I'm not sure yet if a generic implementation will work with them.
j
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I use an Omnifi DMS1 (http://www.omnifimedia.com/products/omnifi_details.jsp?productId=12542&partner=). Its UPnP implementation plays well with a wide variety of UPnP servers, and the user interface design of the box is quite good.
The current price point for this ($150) would make it very attractive if a more full-featured UPnP server (read: Media Center) worked with it. Most of its current limitations are on the software end.
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I'd like to see a UPnP implementation too. I don't think there's an alternative to UPnP AV that covers more devices at a time! Just have a look at Nero MediaCenter. Its transcoding capabilites are pretty impressive. With transcoding you're even more independent of the features of the underlying devices.
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Slim Devices Squeezebox. Nice Open Source server software.
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Slim Devices Squeezebox. Just built a music server and ripped my 1600 discs to it, have been looking for good library software and am trying the demo of Media Center. So far MC seems wonderful and powerful, but I'd love for it to serve my Squeezebox directly (I figured out already about making playlists and putting them in the playlist folder for the squeezebox). The squeezebox server software, while web-based and easy in that sense (I love being able to control it from my laptop while my wife is at the desk where the music server is), but it is frustratingly "closed" i.e. I can't easily manage the music files... MC would seem a fantastic complement to a squeezebox...
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Slim Devices Squeezebox. Just built a music server and ripped my 1600 discs to it, have been looking for good library software and am trying the demo of Media Center. So far MC seems wonderful and powerful, but I'd love for it to serve my Squeezebox directly (I figured out already about making playlists and putting them in the playlist folder for the squeezebox). The squeezebox server software, while web-based and easy in that sense (I love being able to control it from my laptop while my wife is at the desk where the music server is), but it is frustratingly "closed" i.e. I can't easily manage the music files... MC would seem a fantastic complement to a squeezebox...
It's possible that the squeezebox may switch to UpNP which is what most receivers now use. You might ask them what they think. We tried to work with them a couple years ago but it didn't go anywhere.
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Are you all familiar with the new Onkyo AV receivers that have an ethernet port and are able to play MP3, WAV, and WMA files from your PC? I saw a couple of them today, and they are pretty nice. The really nice thing is that it's all self-contained, with no analog cables running from a media receiver to the actual AV receiver--could this mean it all stays digital?
However, the streaming audio from the PC runs off a lousy software program they have developed. I am going to guess that the software does not pick up on the playlists one has created in MC, meaning that you would have to go and build all these playlists all over again. So, that's not so good. (I'm guessing you have to do that with a squeezebox and other media receivers, right?)
Plus, most of my favorite files I have ripped from my CDs using APE and OGG encoding, which I discovered using MC. The Onkyo receivers do not play these files.
So, same problem. Neat product. Could it be possible that MC could be used with these receivers? In other words, if they don't play the APE and OGG files, MC could convert them to MP3 first. Plus, I could keep all the playlists I have constructed over the past few years.
Here are links:
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR901&class=Nettune&p=i
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR801&class=Nettune&p=i
I am using Tivo now, but there are some drawbacks with the Tivo interface. I sure would like to use one of these babies. Plus, if Onkyo is putting one out, certainly Denon and HK and the rest will follow suit. Love to see my favorite music software work with them too.
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Apple Airport Express
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tivo !!!
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......
Plus, most of my favorite files I have ripped from my CDs using APE and OGG encoding, which I discovered using MC. The Onkyo receivers do not play these files.
......
Here are links:
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR901&class=Nettune&p=i
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR801&class=Nettune&p=i
I am using Tivo now, but there are some drawbacks with the Tivo interface. I sure would like to use one of these babies. Plus, if Onkyo is putting one out, certainly Denon and HK and the rest will follow suit. Love to see my favorite music software work with them too.
It is the same problem all over again: A lossless format like APE so popular amidst true audiophiles is not supported by these new devices coming on. It is ok that Onkyo and all the others support MP3 as it is the industry standard. Equally, they should be ashamed putting products out on the market at that kind of price tag that dont support lossless compression formats.
Whats the point in buying these deviceses and then playing files in MP3 where half the audio information is missing ??
Frustrating. When are some of these companies starting to listen to real music lovers that hate castrating their CD's into lossy formats.
BB
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If you use a UPnP A/V device: use the transcoding capabilities of your media server which is running anyway on your PC to serve the files.
UPnP is the way to go for MediaCenter. If not as a server then at least as a control point (i.e remote selecting / changing the songs to play).
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There's a new plug-in to play with:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;topic=25171.0#msg175082
WARNING: It isn't finished yet.
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Jim/John:
(Apologies in advance--I'm one of the less sophisticated of your posters)
I read your last post with some interest. I've been lurking around your boards for some time seeking guidance on how to use MC with any of the media receivers, and recently settled on using Tivo until things hash out.
I have done some searches on UPnP on Google and now know it means "Universal Plug and Play" architecture, but there may be others out there like me who aren't sure what it does. Does your post mean that, by installing the plug-in, MC will implement this architecture and then communicate with any media receiver that also uses UPnP? In other words, if the plug-in works, we will be able to use the media receiver AND our MC software, so that we enjoy our playlists, song ratings, etc.?
If so, I am anxious to learn how the testing goes, and which media receivers/A/V receivers end up working. Manufacturers take notice: if you make one that works with MC, I will buy it!
Thanks for listening to your customers and adding the features we want!
(If you or any of the more knowledgeable folks have a recommendation of where to go to learn more about UPnP, I'd be much obliged.)
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Hi John H,
There's quite a few media players on the market, and only of some of them are UPnP compatible. A lot use their own custom protocol (the squeezebox is one of these).
The UPnP compatible players come in 2 flavors: The player is a UPnP device, and expects the software to be a UPnP control point, or the player is a UPnP control point and expects the software to be a UPnP device. Currently, Media Center's UPnP server only acts as a device, so only the second flavor of devices will work.
For the devices that do work, you will have access to your MC library and playlists. You won't have full control like you do in Media Center, but you can set up playlists and smartlists to do what you need, and then play those on the player.
I'm not sure learning more about UPnP will help much - most manufacturers don't talk about which protocol they use - but if you are interested it's www.upnp.org
j
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I have been using my Squeezebox with the RealSlim plugin to listen to the UPnP stream generated by my Rhapsody player. Maybe there is some future to that avenue? It's not built in to the Squeezebox server from the "factory."
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For anyone following our UPnP development, a new version of the plug-in is available. Please see this thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=25599.0
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I'm giving up on TiVo HMO, because the TiVo desktop software is useless, and MC11 doesn't work with TiVo 7.1a. I think I may have to invest in one of these new Squeezebox2 thingies.
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Roku SoundBridge
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Benrad - the TiVo stuff is coming out soon now. I've tested it with the latest TiVo OS and it works, it's just the logistics now of getting it out. Hopefully tomorrow, but I can't be sure...
j
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Philips Streamium SL400i
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I use the Dlink DSM 320.
I've had it up and running for about a week now.
The setup was very easy, and I was watching Videos and running slide shows with background music in about a 1/2 hour.
I bought the unit primarily because it will handle WAV files. Maybe I am in the minority, but I am a stickler for WAV files. I've done several tests comparing MP3 to WAV, and to my ear the MP3's are not high enough quality for my tastes.
The interface that comes with the unit is fine for photos and video. I've had no trouble playing any files, and my folder structure appears on the screen, which makes it easy to find what I am looking for.
However, it does not work well for sorting my 6K WAV files. My WAV's are all in one folder, and I use MC to sort them out. The playlists work fine, but even sorting through my dozens of playlists takes some time.
Also, since the software gets the track info from an ID3 tag, WAV files show up with your actual file name, and no other info.
The advantage to the MC interface is the ability to use the database to sort my files, and that the info. saved in the tag file also shows up.
The only problem now is I have to switch back and forth between the servers depending on if I am playing music, photos, or video, since MC currently does not support the Photos or Video very well. Hopefully that will change in the future.
A suggestion for Media Center would be to add sorting even within a particular letter. For instance, if I sort my files into six sections, I'll get A-f, G-K, etc. Then I can select a particular letter in that field. It would be nice to be able to sort the letters by Be, Bi, Bm, etc. When you are searching through 1800 artists it would make the process a little more bearable.
To sum up, as with any new technology, it isn't perfect. However, I believe we should see many refinements as these types of units gain more market.
Looking forward to UPnP updates as they arrive.
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Gzydeck
Photos and video are coming in the future.
Try creating a view scheme with grouping to solve your "letter" problem.
j
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I use the Dlink DSM 320.
I bought the unit primarily because it will handle WAV files. Maybe I am in the minority, but I am a stickler for WAV files. I've done several tests comparing MP3 to WAV, and to my ear the MP3's are not high enough quality for my tastes.
Also, since the software gets the track info from an ID3 tag, WAV files show up with your actual file name, and no other info.
I'm with you on WAV files!
It's interesting that the MC tag info does not show up on your player. I'm using a Philips Streamium SL400i and I can see all the MC tag info for my WAV files. One of the main problems with the current server release is that I can't play any WAV files - this is supposed to be fixed real soon.
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Myron,
Maybe I am missing something. Did you somehow embed the tag info. into the files?
My understanding is that ID3 tags can't be saved in WAV files, only MP3's. I thought the tag info. was only saved in the MC database.
Hopefully I am wrong. If there is something I am missing, I would appreciate any help you can provide.
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Gzydeck
Photos and video are coming in the future.
Try creating a view scheme with grouping to solve your "letter" problem.
j
John,
I tried the grouping function, but it didn't give me what I expected.
For example, I grouped artists in threes (ABC, DEF, ...) and was expecting to see all artists beginning with A, B and C in one sub-folder. What I got was all songs by all artists starting with A, B and C - not very usefull.
Is this what should be happening or am I doing somethinw wrong?
BTW, how's the next release of the UPnP server coming along?
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Myron,
You just need to add artists a second time to get what you expected. The first time you've got it grouped in sets of three, but the next time you need it again, ungrouped.
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Myron,
You just need to add artists a second time to get what you expected. The first time you've got it grouped in sets of three, but the next time you need it again, ungrouped.
Well DUH!, why didn't I think of that?
Makes perfect sense, thanks....
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What about those of us that have more than one type? :-)
Should have been a tickbox rather than a radio button :-p
Odd results - I wonder if the people voting "other" still don't entirely understand what you mean by a media receiver?
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Odd results - I wonder if the people voting "other" still don't entirely understand what you mean by a media receiver?
So, TiVo with HMO is not a Media Receiver?
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So you're saying everyone who voted "other" is using TiVo HMO?
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No, he was saying that the choices given for what was defined as "Media Receiver" didn't match what most people are using.
Many of the "others" are using the Apple Airport Express. Many are using TiVo. (I think those were the two most common?)
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well, so far, 3 people *said* Airport and 5 *said* TiVo.
That still leaves another 20 in "other" as the poll currently stands...
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I voted other. Streamium SL400i.
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MP101
Hardware is OK for my environment although lots of people have reported wireless connection problems.
Software has been a problem and I would love to use MC11 instead.
But when I work around the various bugs I can run two of them quite happily in my house.
One in the front room with the main stero and one out back that drives two sets of speakers (one indoors and one outside)
The end result is that all 14K tracks are available almost everywhere in the house at reasonable quality and with not too much trouble searching.
Playlists can also be created and then used on both units.
Everyone that comes round wants the same set up. But at this stage I couldn't recommend it to anyone without some computer knowledge and a lot of patientce.
I know other units offer more features but for me the object was always just to allow access to all of my music (and to get the CD's and Lp's out of the loungeroom)
Stephen
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We've got a version that works with Sony Roomlink. I'm not sure whether it can convert. Drop an e-mail to gateley @ jriver.com to ask.
what version is that?