INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Jukebox => Topic started by: skidoo on September 18, 2002, 09:40:20 pm
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Is this true? Will Version 8 customers (particularly us very revent ones) have to pay an upgrade fee to get version 9??
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Go ask Adobe or Microsoft or Macromedia or nearly any other software company if users have to pay for full version number upgrades.
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I think that JRiver will decide that soon, now we have to wait
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skidoo
The final version of MJ9 will not be out for sometime.
If i payed for Windows NT, Microsoft Did Not Give Me Windows XP Pro For Free, It Cost Me $199.00.
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All in IMHO of course.
My attitude to a "pay for 9" would vary based on the improvements for MJ9.
Its a valid issue to refer to Microsoft and XP IF the relative change from 8 to 9 is as big as the change from 98SE to XP. Don't forget XP SP1 is free (if you download it.)
On the other hand (there's always another hand :)) I'm sure that JRiver are concerned about revenue flow. Insufficient revenue flow means no JRiver which means no MJ10.
Just some rambling thoughts.
-=Tim=-
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... another rambling thought ...
Microsoft still supports Windows 2000 ... it's not like they issued XP and then forgot about Win2k. I hope JRiver continues to support such a significant release as is v8.
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Whilst I'm not particularly philanthropic, would fully expect to pay for a major upgrade, and it sounds like v9 is going to substantially take us into the next generation of this software genre.
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Besides which, JRiver never made any promises about version 8 customers getting 9 for free. They repeatedly said that it hadn't been decided.
TimB> SP1 isn't an upgrade to XP. It's just a big patch full of bugfixes. So it wouldn't be suprising that it's free and really has no parallel to MJ 8 or 9. It would be akin to a new build of MJ 8, not a new release of MJ9.
Besides which, Microsoft did charge customers to upgrade from 98 to 98SE.
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How about this one ... I downloaded version 9 ... using the link in the v9.0 program, went to obtain a license ... paid for a license ... If there were no cutoff date for 9.0 and it can only be bought once it is "officially" released, I would have to buy it again ?
This is true, btw ... I've never used a copy of MJ before 9.0 ... I wasnt liking my old player so I came here ... found the link for 9.0 and downloaded ....
Just a minor gripe, personally ... I love the software ... And, it doesnt appear that it will be out of alpha/beta in the really near future ... But, it is interesting to have a BUY link in an alpha copy !
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I'm going to try something we've never done before on policy -- sharing our plans as we're making them.
Please keep this in mind: we need to see increased revenue from MJ to continue development long term. We've spent several million dollars on development. Our network software business has supported this. I don't mean to suggest that MJ development will stop, but we will not be able to keep up with market changes and competitors unless we make ends meet.
So here is a DRAFT of PRICING POLICY. Feel free to make suggestions.
Currently
Media Jukebox Version 8.0 costs $24.98. It works with any 7.x license. No other upgrade prices exist.
Planned (maybe)
MJ Version 9.0 will be $29.98 until December 15, $44.98 after that.
It will also work with any 8.0 license bought before October 1. 8.0 licenses bought after October 1 will be upgradable for $19.98. A 7.x license will be upgradeable for $24.98.
We will also make a 9.0 license work with 8.0 so you can switch back and forth.
On launch the name may be changed to JRiver Media Center. If we do this, we will probably also keep selling Media Jukebox 8.0 for some time.
OK, FIRE AWAY.
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1. I like the pricing policy.
2. I like the name Media Center, versus Media Library. Media Center describes the application more accurately. And the initials "MC" have that little double-entendre thing going for them.
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When I at first read the price hike to $44.98, my first thought was, "Ouch!" But then I realized what kind of app that would be buying, and I realized it would be worth it. Audio, Video and Image support all in one package is definitely worth the price. What are some of these other image organizers running for these days? I know that 20-30 isn't out of the ordinary for an audio jukebox, so 45 is reasonable for MJ.
I'm kind of wondering if it would be a better idea to sell Media Center (maybe now we can stop being confused with those Music Match people) as two products? Media Jukebox that just plays audio and video for $29.99 and then the $15.00 add-on that turns it into Media Center with image support? Just an idea. I'm just wondering how many people would be turned off by the $44.99 price tag. Hell, I'm ok with it. But then, you're talking to somebody who actually paid for Siren Jukebox. I've spent more money on things that gave me less satisfaction.
One question about the upgrade pricing. Any idea how the upgrade process will work? Will we have to maintain 2 licenses (Is that "Yesterday" I hear?) or will there be some sort of conversion process? Just curious.
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Jim,
Obviously you know the economic needs of J River better than any of us...
BUT, $45 for a computer music jukebox is excessive. WMP and WinAmp are free. Now I dont dispute that MJ is the king. But $45 is a lot of money to put down for a new program.
A 25 dollar upgrade fee is a lot for Version 7 users. I myself bought version 7 when version 8 betas were out and only used version 8. That is my fault obviosuly for not waiting until 8's release.
Everybody here makes the argument that Microsoft charges for new versions.
This is true, but there isnt a new version of Winddows or Office every 6 months. Their releases are 1-3 years apart are represent huge upgrades,
Frankly, I dont know why your updated version isnt called 8.3 or something... It changes by leaps and bounds with each new release, but at this point it isnt drastically different.
Again, Jim I respect your work here and also your right to charge what you want. But my 2 cents are 1)$45 dollars is a lot of money for this program and 2)the upgrade isnt a huge changes (at this point) over version 8 to justify charging existing version 8 users...
THanks for your forum and candor
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I know you need money to survive but I personally think the prices are too high.
Especially for a product with limited restores etc. That's something that's bugged a lot of people including me and I'd never pay that much for a program that wasn't a full no strings license. I know your worried about cracks but for a lot of people it's not a case of you've lost half your customers to the ones that are using cracks, it's more a case of the ones using the cracks would either use it cracked or just wouldn't use it. A few of them might pay but not that many.
Also, I'd never pay that for a jukebox fullstop. I know MJ is pretty powerful but I just use it as a light user and so do a LOT of people I think you'll find.
Winamp 3 is free and so are a lot of other jukebox programs. If I'd come along and seen that MJ was priced at that much for v8 I'd never have bought it in the first place. For me the price was just about what I was willing to pay for a jukebox program.
For the relatively few extreme audio people on this site who have it linked up to their home stereo's, tv's etc I'm sure that's not too bad a price but for the average person just wanting to listen to music on their computer I think your going to kill your market. Unless of course you are just going for this pure specialised market.
Thanks for the free upgrade because I'd love to play with v9 but to be honest I'd never fork out again for the update. It's way too soon to when v8 was released. With windows there's a big release with a LOT of changes every 2 or so years. With MJ it's been a few months. With a build pattern like that it'd be costing me like 3 major upgrades per year.
I know you have to make money but if you have X customers all paying amount B and then decide you need twice as much money, the answer isn't to try charge them 2B, it's to try to get 2X as many customers. Charging twice as much means you'll probably just end up with X/2 customers.
I know some users in the past have said they'd be willing to pay $45 but that's probably a slight exageration on their part to make a point on what they'd want to pay and also probably just a few power users who are making pretty good money and use MJ to it's full power.
If you want to start going to this high a price for MJ I HUGELY suggest you make a light version without things like scheduler, download manager, Media Server etc and sell just the plain jukebox by itself for a lower amount.
The $29.98 price is as much as I think I'd be willing to ever pay for MJ and as much as most general users would be willing. The fact it doesn't have the 30 what to speak of 40 ring to it just means I'd just about for it out.
You'll start making more cash from reviews at sites like CNET as they send customers your way. I think you need to play a more long term strategy and just wait for the number of customers to increase as sites like CNET refer them over and people tell their friends about it. And again to help with that, I've said it before, I think you really need to make MJ more user friendly for beginners with wizards etc, that will REALLY pay off as unpower users are sent over from CNET. I think that's the most important change you should make to v9. Add some wizards for Creating smartlists, doing batch jobs on the whole db (ie getting image covers, etc). Right now for isntance to analyse replay gain on the songs you have to select them all, choose properties, then Replay Gain or something like that.
There should just be a straight tool: Analyse Replay Gain.
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A 7.x license will be upgradeable for $24.98.
Well i have a 7.x license and i agree with JimH in this matter other like me would agree too
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As an addendum...
I do relize that MJ plans to be an audio/video monster.
If you added Video editing (for minicams) then $45 would be reasonable. But for the ability to just play music and video files, 45 bucks is a lot
Would CNET rate MJ so highly if the price was $45? Cost is a consideration in their ratings
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Well considering that before this, a version 7 license didn't get you anything relating to version 9, I think an upgrade price of 24.98 is just great. :)
And I can completely agree with you that there isn't a significant change between 8 and the alpha version of 9. Because image support is definitely not major. And neither are the other myriad changes that are sure to come as it evolves from an alpha to full version.
There are things hinted at in 9 that I haven't seen mention of, that I think could evolve into something better down the road. The Favorites list for instance.
Have patience. I think 9 is going to grow quite nicely. At that point, you can decide if you want in or not.
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Allowing a free upgrade from one major version to the next was unnecessary. The number of new features added from v7 to v8 easily justified an upgrade fee.
Image support in v9 isn't worth an upgrade fee to me, although some of the other proposed features (DJ/Mixing, for instance) would make an upgrade fee worthwhile. Given that, I think $25 is a reasonable upgrade fee.
I really like the idea of a base product licensed for, say $30, and optional plug-ins licensed separately (like slide show).
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This is true, but there isnt a new version of Winddows or Office every 6 months. Their releases are 1-3 years apart are represent huge upgrades
Load up Media Jukebox 7 sometime and compare it to 8. You'll be amazed at how horrible it is by comparison -- and not because 7 was horrible, but because 8 is that much better. You'll say the same thing about version 8 when we're done with version 9.
Then load up Word 97 and compare it to Word XP. Not that different, but it represents $100's in upgrade costs.
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>> MJ Version 9.0 will be $29.98 until December 15, $44.98 after that.
I will Be in Line For $29.98
>>$44.98
A bit Much
$34.98 <-> $39.98 Might be better
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Ummm, am I the only one mystified by the proposed V8 upgrade pricing?
"MJ Version 9.0 will be $29.98 until December 15, $44.98 after that.
It will also work with any 8.0 license bought before October 1. 8.0 licenses bought after October 1 will be upgradable for $19.98."
As I read it, if I purchase V8 today--9/19--V9 will cost me nothing. I'll be able to use all the fancy, great V9 features for free. If I wait 2 weeks--until after October 1--then buy V8, V9 will end up costing me $24.98 (for V8) |PLS| $19.98 (for V9 upgrade)--that's a total of $44.96, right?
I guess I'm surprised that people buying V8 closer to the release date of V9 get penalized with a $20 upgrade fee. It seems backwards to me...
Or am I misreading something?
Brad
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Brad
> If I wait 2 weeks--until after October 1--then buy V8, V9 will end up costing me $24.98 (for V8) |PLS| $19.98 (for V9 upgrade)--that's a total of $44.96, right?
No, you can just skip ahead and buy Version 9 now and get it for $29.98. That license will also work with version 8.0.
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The pricing seems very reasonable to me (considering the multitude of features the product provides). But, the large pricetag on v9 post-december might turn a few heads ... a few bucks less and you get a bit more attention ...
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Here are a few other products and prices, for comparison:
ACDSee is $49.95
http://www.acdsystems.com/English/Products/ACDSee/feature1.htm?LAN=English#
Lview Pro is $39
http://www.lview.com/AboutLViewPro.htm
Paint Shop Pro is $99
http://www.jasc.com/products/psp/
Even WinZip is $29
http://www.winzip.com
There are other products that are free or under $44.98, but the reality is that they were often subsidized (WinAmp by AOL, MusicMatch by Thomson and others, Sonique by Lycos, and so on) and after the dotcom collapse, they are either not developing much or they are moving toward a more realistic economic model. MusicMatch and Real now charge monthly for subscriptions, for example.
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> $45 for a computer music jukebox is excessive.
Umm, no. Not if you're a serious MP3 user.
> Also, I'd never pay that for a jukebox fullstop. I know
> MJ is pretty powerful but I just use it as a light user
> and so do a LOT of people I think you'll find.
If you're a "light user," you might want to try switching to a "light program." I have my entire music collection on MP3s (3000 songs), a dedicated music server wired into two sound systems (including a whole-house audio system), and an MP3 music system in my car.
Media Jukebox is a godsend. If the tag editing was a little more stable and speedy (it locks up on me routinely), MJ would be perfect. And certainly worth $45. I will be recommending it to my MP3-carzy friends.
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Image Viewers can charge more because as of yet, the built in capabilities in Windows are poor for graphics.
WMP comes built into Windows and is likely to kill most the competition (take netscape v IE for instance).
The only way that I can see that you can hope to compete is to make the price tag not so great that people who are browsing by are scared off.
They have to look at the price and think it's not that bad to try an alternative, not look at it and go: Wow, thats alot.
I definitely dont advice going over the $3x.99 price range.
Hitting the 40's is definitely too high in my opinion.
And as for the competition being subsidised, it might be, but this doesn't change the fact that it's competition. Esp with things like winamp which have such a huge following.
If I was faced with $45.00 to buy MJ I know for a fact I'd be using Winamp 3 right now.
Also, What's the restore policy etc going to be in v9 because this is also hugely important.
Look at any of your own examples. They all give you a full license for the product, not limited to any number of restores per year.
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Nila
> Esp with things like winamp which have such a huge following.
JRiver now has more people on MJ development than AOL has on WinAmp development.
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If J river Went To A Montly Charge Like Real And MusicMatch What Price Would That Be?
I Did not know MusicMatch Went To Monthly Charge For The MP3 Player.
>> ACDSee is $49.95
Never Played With It
>> Lview Pro is $39
Never Liked It
> Paint Shop Pro is $99
A Very High Learning Curve
>> http://www.winzip.com/
Best Thing Since Sliced Bread (Mine Is Registered) Along With The Self Extractor.
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If J river Went To A Montly Charge Like Real And MusicMatch What Price Would That Be?
Don't even START down that path. I'd gladly shell out $35 - $40 but even a monthly charge of $1 would make me say "Adios". It would just add to the monthly clutter of my bank/credit card statements. I can't imagine the adminsitrative overhead to J River would be a good thing either.
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Still of the opinion that the product should be split: one for the high-end user (type media center, networked home) with all the gimmicks and one for the low-end user who just wants to rip, play music, organize songs and burn cd's. They should be priced differently.
Once you get used to a specific software and learn to love it, you are also willing to pay for extra features!
Jaguu
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> ACDSee is $49.95
It supports reading EXIF-information and is specialiced in video and picture-organizing. And it's not that good at it.
> Paint Shop Pro is $99
PSP is a great product with many good features ("resamping"). And I don't think you will build in that many edit-function into MJ.
The pricing of about 25$ for an upgrade is fair, if MJ9 gets more options/features regarding to picture/video-handling (as I see it now, it will). For a serious audio-fan 44$ is not too much, if he gets a good product helping him saving hours of work (this is what MJ is for me). But I don't think you will get the "normal" users, which are by far the most people...
I know from my own experience, that two different version of one software is very difficult to support and handle. But I think, that you should offer the "big" one for 44$ and a specialized one for audio for about 25$.
That are my thoughts. I personally don't care that much how much I have to spend on MJ9. I earn quite a bit of money; but I'm quite sure this is not everyone...
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The actual price tag is not so much of a problem for me, I think MJ would even be worth $45. But for me the new licensing scheme of V8 is not acceptable, because I would like to be sure that software that I buy will work on my system in the future, even if I don't have an internet connection available or there's no more JRiver website to renew my install key. Therefore, I won't buy V9 anyhow (unless that will be changed, but I don't think so).
But many other people probably won't buy MJ, because they simply don't know it. You're stating that you need to make money from it - but what are you doing to get known? Just raising the price will not help, because it will only put off existing customers but obviously not attract new ones.
As I said in previous post, MJ ist by far the best media management tool out there, so you need to communicate that somehow (e.g. by bundling slightly limited or older versions with hardware or something like that) instead of squeezing out and hindering your loyal customers.
Elmar
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I spent $400 on a remote control.
$45 for my favorite piece of software is nothing. I can't say that I would do that every 6 months, but once a year, definitely. I already spend $50 a year buying the newest version of Microsoft Money.
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The major reason that I bought MJ was for the Media Library and organizational abilities. For me, most of the other features are unused. I don't do streaming media or TV on the computer, I don't use a portable that requires a plugin, I don't need a media server, and I have better utilities for tagging, editing, replaygain, ripping and burning. Perhaps v9 will make some of these additional tools, perhaps not. But if it doesn't completely replace at least some of them, I'm not paying for an upgrade - there would be no value in it for me. As for new functionality, the same rule would apply - only if it can completely replace an existing utility or offer features unavailable elsewhere.
One thing I'm concerned about is diffusion. As more features and utilities are added to MJ/MC/whatever, what will happen to the quality of service and the addressing of minor issues? A greater number of functions means a greater number of potential issues - that's just software, IMO. But how that will affect the prioritization of issues remains to be seen. Also, I worry when software that I use starts to become an "all in one" package because it most often translates to "best at none" and I wind up moving on to other utilities.
Last, the restore issue: this is my only major gripe with MJ, and the thing that keeps me from recommending it to anyone. Between the limited number of restores and the difficulties faced by newbie users, I can't honestly reccomend it to many people. And given the sensitivity of the multiple protections, there is a resulting small measure of dread. I have to question whether I should make certain computer changes or upgrades because of one software package - not a good situation. Increased cost with no change in that policy and architecture would be a negative influence for me.
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I really dont care what it will cost, I really really don't. Charge me what ever you think is fair. Just don't turn MJ into some MMJB, Siren, RJ, or MS MP clone. I pretty much like it the way it is with some minor exceptions who's discusssion is off tipic in this thread.
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I'm a relative newcomer here, but I don't object at all to paying an upgrade premium for a great app that I'm using and enjoying immensely. My one concern is that version 9 stays compatible with my PC's current overall configuration. While I'm happy I found MJB, I came to it after MMJB's most recent upgrade. That one not only failed to load it's bloated GUI, but proved a real b**ch to uninstall completely. Afterwards, previous versions of MMJB wouldn't run right either, and the tech support was pretty shabby. So the $$ is no issue, so long as V9 is a polished, quality upgrade with good support from the developers.
--Cheers from Hoboken, NJ--
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If I was faced with $45.00 to buy MJ I know for a fact I'd be using Winamp 3 right now.
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Or reformatting your harddrive every month.
$45.00 is pittance for this app. I spend several hundred dollars a year in new and used cds. Tack on a couple more bucks for cd-r / cd-rw media and whatever else I deem necessary for the music that I enjoy so much. If that means I have to anty up, so be it. I'd much prefer to see my dollars go towards the development of MJ, which has actually got me doing more with my music then anything else in the past.
MP3 cds that i take to work with me everyday are just one the things I like about this. Playback thru the stereo is going to be more dependent on MJ in the future. Now the ability to manage pictures, this is a bargain in my book.
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I INSIST on paying $50 or more for Version 9.
Signed,
Anonymous >:(
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anonymous,
send money. we'll think about sending software.
captain hook
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I INSIST on paying $50 or more for Version 9.
Signed,
Anonymous >:(
Hey mister, you forgot to log off first.... ;D
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Since you asked, I'm going to take the opportunity to whine a little bit. In all honesty, I have little patience for much of the complaining that is posted regarding pricing and licensing policies. I normally keep all of my software current and fully expect to pay for upgrades.
It's possible that my situation in the case of MJ is unique. However, I paid for version 7 in May (discovered Interact the following day and the existance of the V8 beta) and for Slide Show in July. If I had purchased V8 (which I would have if I had known about it), I wouldn't have to pay to upgrade to V9 and as it appears that V9 will contain the functionality of Slide Show, my purchase and support of of that plug-in seems to be of short-lived value. Perhaps some exceptions to the pricing policy can be considered based on the purchase date of the licensed versions.
I like the idea of 2 levels of MJ - a basic and an advanced version. I think most of the people I know would be interested in the basic version and are not interested in more features than MM has to offer. It might be difficult to convince them to switch from MM if the pricing differential is significant. Perhaps after becoming familiar and comfortable with the "basic" version, they would be motivated to upgrade to an "advanced" version.
Shelly
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I believe that a dual pricing/ function level scheme would be good. Of those who said that they would gladly pay for MJ9, (one idiot even wanted to pay $50)most of those are experienced MJ users. I.E. they know what they would be paying for.
An introductory model would probably sway more new users than a $45 price tag. That's a lot of money to pay for something you don't know about.
OK. Now that's FOUR cents worth. I'm down to $49.96.
CVIII
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8)
I will go along with JimH pricing scheme. all is fair to me and I will jump on the opportunity to get it at the best price while I can. In my case I am moving from a condo to a townhouse and in Miami that is a big jump in cost so I need to start budgiting my funds. and if anyone is wondering, a townhouse in Miami (Mine) runs 170,000 so it is penny pinching time here. LOL
By the way, this new BB is cool but what gives with the three stars and Senior Wood Chuck under them LOL
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>> By the way, this new BB is cool but what gives
>> with the three stars
# Of Posts a User made?
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As a version 7 customer, I expected to pay for version 8. I certainly think it is fair to pay for version 9, and the price is reasonable.
Frequency of major versions, and what content changes are required to justify one is an issue.
Perhaps another way to go is on an annualized basis. Inital purchase includes 1 year of free upgrades, which can be renewed each year at a rate lower than purchasing the newest version. This would make the major version issue moot. This would also provide a constant revenue stream, rather than spikes when major upgrades occur.
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I think the two best ideas for pricing are the one expressed above (a yearly rate that is can be renewed and costs less that paying for the most recent version - though J River would have to be sure to release new versions often then) and a component scheme.
In the component idea I think you should start out with a VERY cheap (preferably freeware), VERY stripped down version of MJ. This should include trial versions of the more advanced aspects of MJ (either trial by time period or limiting the functionality). Then other components can be bought and downloaded online, and probably offered in bundles that would be cheaper than buying the components separately. This would allow newbies who might not be willing to commit to try out and fall in love with MJ, then maybe upgrade to a more powerful version, and allows ALL users to pick and choose what they need... only spending what is necessary.
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I understand paying for a major upgrade. BUT ... I've heard about charging existing customers $44.95, almost doouble of what the price of the current price is, is out of line. I would definately not do it. Even $29.95 as I heard as well, is too high.
Seems to be a lot of rich people here, could buy me a copy of 9 for $44.95 please ?
I think must honor you must existing loyal $25 customers who got you going. Don't know what you would charge for new users of 9, but more than $15.00 for an upgrade, which is about 66% if my math is correct would be appropriate if the product has improved. By improved I mean, more quality, not more "stuff".
I do find it great that you are asking your customer base first, that is why I purchased MJ in the first place.
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First off the bat... I have no real issue with the purchase price and continued support of MJ and JRiver... That said I am not a normal user... I wonder how many there are out there that need an all encompassing app that may cost $45...
Also from my point of view all I am using is the player and cataloger of APE files... I rip with EAC.. I compress with monkeys... I simply use MJ as an audio player with the web remote and glissando.... I use none of the image / DVD / TV stuff as all of this is handled far better by other apps (I hold the dScaler domains so I could be biased ;) ) so then what is the $45 buying...
Well for me what it is buying is the only developer that I can persuade to be interested in higher end audio is JRiver.... If I have to pay more in Reg fees to have a developer listen to ASIO / upsampling / Good SDK's / etc then thats what I am paying for... Not the feature set of bloat but the possibility that this could develop into the higher end of audio that no one else seems to be targetting... How many people are there like me thinking about >$500 external rackmounted soundcards ?? Possibly not many...
I personally have no problem... I think many many people would see that price as a barrier for entry.... Larger user bases pay the bills....
Lastly... I would have to say that at near the $50 there should be DTS / DD decoders built in and the ability to Rip DTS redbook CD's (a la Chesky) and DVD-V audio vobs... This requires additional Dolby / DTS license costs (unless you want to go directshow) but if so many other DVD players can afford this at the $50 (or $15 for simply the filters) price bracket then I wonder if JRiver can.... This is a add on I would pay for... another $25 for a plug in that connected the directshow pins (even manual filtergraph building like Zoom Player) between your WavOut and the audio renderer of other installed DVD SW is what I would call a value added.... If you want to target the premium payers target the high disposable income crowd with an 'optional add on'....
Just my 0.02 Euros.... Whatever you do... Count on my support...
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_____[Swordsman's post moved here by JimH]____
The way I see it, this $45 pricing scheme will put you into a middle-to-high-end niche market - which could be difficult to generate enough revenue to stay with cutting-edge development. I think you have two options: a lite/full version setup or a plug-in system. Here's why:
When I am looking for sofware at Download.com - I look first at Freeware or low-cost stuff to see if something fits my needs. If MJ could put a substantial feature set into a "lite" version that was either free or less than $15, that could get you alot of visibility. Then once people use "MJ Lite" for awhile, and advance their skills and their media collections, they would naturally need more features and controls - so there is a good chance they would gravitate up to buying the pay version. That is where they could get into advanced features like Media Server, Media Editor, Radio Stations, Image Management, etc... It would be up to JRiver to research and find a good balance of not giving so much in "lite" that people don't buy the full, but also not putting out a "lite" that is vastly inferior to the free competition.
I personally like the plug-in idea... You only want MP3 playback, playlists, and skins? Free! You now want to add SmartLists? $5 more please! Media Editor with converter? $10! Now you're really advanced and you want Media Server and Image Management? $10 more please! Or you could buy the full version for $45 - a discount compared to the sum of the parts! It would be like buying a car - customized for each person's needs, or simply getting the whole package. You could even call it Media Center Suite!
You would be getting happy customers at the basic level and happy customers at the advanced level. A straight $45 pricing scheme will likely not get you very many middle-to-entry-level customers but you will, of course, retain your hard-core advanced customers. Will that be enough?
_____[End of Swordsman's post]____
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Pertinent to this discussion is whether or not (or when) support MJ V8 will be abandoned. It's only a matter of time and there are still bugs to be exterminated in V8. For example, MJ froze w/ an exception y'day when I used Ctrl-P to start back up from pause. If troubleshooting/debugging of V8 will continue after the debut of V9, then I see nothing wrong with charging to upgrade.
However, I've been the victim of many S/W companies' claim that bugs will be fixed in the new version (read: $$ for upgrade) and refusing to fix the app I paid for. Symantec (pcAnywhere, WinFAX, Talkworks), Micro$soft (WinXX, Office, etc) and other companies have done this. I believe this to be unethical. :'(
If further debugging support for V8 does diminish or disappear after the debut of V9, then I believe anyone w/ clear evidence of a remaining bug in V8 should get V9 free. Otherwise, a breach of contract has occurred.
Jim
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I dont know if that was JimH or Swordsmans words above but the more I think about it the more I like the plug in price packaging...
Think of it like 'pushing' SW... First give it away cheap.. Get em hooked... Get the demand and need going... Than BAMB... Time to pay Poppa !! :D !!!
Also when faced with a desire to do something, $5 or so is like a packet of cigs (well it is in Europe anyway !!) or a burger.. .Trivial incremental... I know I am a sucker for dropping many $5 when if I was faced with a single $40 I would think again about it as a value propostion....
Listening to: 'Superfly' from 'The Ultimate Curtis Mayfield..' by 'Curtis Mayfield' on Media Jukebox
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Personal Example:
I was quite happily using Winamp, I tried out Media Jukebox just because it supported DFX. Because I liked it and it was only $25, I bought it.
Because I liked it so much, and it was only $25, I convinced 2 friends to buy it.
At $45, you would have had zero customers.
At $25 you had 3.
I have another friend that I have had on the fence for quite awhile. I know that he will not pay $45.
Jim.
Just as a disclaimer, I am going to buy the upgrade. I think you are doing a great job. I love your product. I think $45 would be too much.
While it's true that you offer more responsive support than any company I have ever dealt with, you can be over responsive. Minor bug fixes come in hours, I would rather see problems compiled and see a release every 2 weeks.
MJ is so rich with features that they border on being Easter eggs. I had someone show me a function once that was so buried that I never found it again. I learned of most of the functionality on the interact boards. There are button and menu options that I have never used. I have been using it for about 8 months now and I found 3 new menus this week.
This is right and good. You do great work, but it won't suck in new users for $45, because most of them will never come close to finding those features. I never would have, and I think it's horrible I would have missed it.
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highwebl,
> Minor bug fixes come in hours, I would rather see problems compiled and see a release every 2 weeks.
We put out new builds publicly about every 3 or 4 weeks. Anything you find here on Interact is for testing. You don't need to try it if you don't like updating often. The build on our downloads page is always safe.
Thanks for your comments, your business, and your referral to your friends.
Jim
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Oh, and Jim,
You are right, as CEO it is terribly wrong to share incomplete or partial information. I have never seen a company make the kinds of descision JRiver makes on service, support and end-user input.
Thank you for being just the way you are.
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Well.. As a new user who has yet to figure HOW to pay for MJ (I don't use credit/debit cards and I'm awaiting an answer to other purchase options), I'd have to say the price of $45 seems fair for a whole suite like this, BUT for that amount I'd have to have a fully-licensed hard copy. I mean, no limits on the number of times I load or re-load it. No requirements to be online if I need to re-install the program. No hoops to jump through.
As an example, I'm a Sonic Foundry Acid user. They have the most ANNOYING process for installing their program. I have to load it, type in a serial from the manual's front page, then connect to the internet, register (no matter how many times I've registered in the past), wait for an email (and hope I typed my address correctly. I mistyped once and had to wait nearly a month for them to verify that I wasn't scamming them) and then use the link in the email to insert the key that makes the program work. That's just for the main program. EVERY plug-in requires the same process, and there are several plug-ins. All this hassle from a product I bought RETAIL. I have the discs. I have receipts saying I spent well over $100 for this program. And if I don't have an internet connection, the discs are useless. If I have to reformat my hard drive, I have to go through this crud again.
It sounds like MJ is similar in it's "protection" scheme. I'm pretty sure I came across a pirated copy, but I deleted it- and I know the trouble's out there. But making honest users go through a stringent registration process because there are dishonest people in the world is just not cool- Especially if I'm paying $45 for the product.
So like I said- For that much money, I'd need some assurance that it would be MINE to use this year, next year, and 10 years from now, without complex registration or activation. For that much money, I want to install it, plug in a Key (that will always work on my copy), and go. I'd be fine with registering every time, but I don't want any limit on the number of times I can activate.
For $29 I'd put up with the hassle-laden installation, but any more than that, and it's starting to become slightly oppressive.
DON'T go the way of Microsoft and limit my activations, or make me fret over changing my system significantly. When I pay for something, I expect it to be at my disposal whenever I need it, without it impacting OTHER things I paid for. When you limit my range of action on my PC, your program becomes a burden rather than a benefit.
That being said, the upgrade policy seems fair. I'd pay for a major upgrade- As long as it IS a MAJOR upgrade. Not just a bugfix, and a couple tweaks- New features, more stability working with tags, and other perks.
Like I said- Don't pull a Microsoft and offer us Windows 95 (which was essentially a beta), and then charge us for Windows 98 (which was really just an upgrade to the beta). "Full Plus Version" should mean FULL PLUS version.
The program's great. It's making me regret that I spent money on MMJB, and that's quite a feat- I've been loyal to them for a long time.
-ZC
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One idea I had a while back about licensing was this:
Purchasing and registering goes the same way it did for version 7. You are issued a key that you use to unlock the program. This key contains your name, address, and CC number, just the way it used to. You are responsible for keeping this key safe. It doesn't expire. Ever. Even if JRiver goes out of business or you lose your internet connection you can still install MJ and unlock it.
If you lose this key, you can use JRiver Restore page to issue a new key, at a cost of $4.99. You are then issued a new key that is identical to the one you were given at purchase with the same rights and responsibilities as before.
This insures that you can always restore your copy of MJ, the customer doesn't have to jump through all kinds of hoops when they format their computer, and it only penalizes those people who lose their key, and even then, not as badly as before when their only way out was to purchase MJ all over again for another $24.98. And because your personal info is in the key, you're less likely to distribute it.
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I don't know what the real right answer is...
But I do know that if the licensing scheme does not change, I will either be:
a.) NOT buying MJ9 at all
- or -
b.) buying it and using a crack on my personal copy that I PAID FOR
I do not believe in, or tolerate, piracy. But I also do not believe in being potentially locked out of software I paid for and am using in accordance with the licensing agreement.
Hopefully they will get rid of this silly 'numbered install' license scheme for MJ9.
Jason Bottjen
One idea I had a while back about licensing was this:
Purchasing and registering goes the same way it did for version 7. You are issued a key that you use to unlock the program. This key contains your name, address, and CC number, just the way it used to. You are responsible for keeping this key safe. It doesn't expire. Ever. Even if JRiver goes out of business or you lose your internet connection you can still install MJ and unlock it.
If you lose this key, you can use JRiver Restore page to issue a new key, at a cost of $4.99. You are then issued a new key that is identical to the one you were given at purchase with the same rights and responsibilities as before.
This insures that you can always restore your copy of MJ, the customer doesn't have to jump through all kinds of hoops when they format their computer, and it only penalizes those people who lose their key, and even then, not as badly as before when their only way out was to purchase MJ all over again for another $24.98. And because your personal info is in the key, you're less likely to distribute it.
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JimH Am I right if I buy 9 today it will work with the 8 I have and also with the official release when it comes out. I have to agree with some there may have to be a lite version for $29.00 and the one with all the whistles for the $44. I bought almost every Juke Box out there starting with data becker, realjukebox,etc. spent way more than $44 but each one had something I wanted. But then again I'm not to smart thats what my wife tells me. King I also have a registered winzip 8.1 a program you can't do without King are you in your rocking chair. Bye
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If you're taking votes, I prefer "Light" and a "Full" version over having a bunch of a-la-carte plugins.
I think I'd feel like I was getting two-bitted to death if I had to pay $5-$10 everytime wanted a bit of new functionality above what the "Light" version provided.
Besides, I think you'd find that supporting a complex matrix of plugins is a tedious undertaking.
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JimH Am I right if I buy 9 today it will work with the 8 I have and also with the official release when it comes out.
Yes. Hopefully, after today, 8.0 purchased to date, and 9.0 from now through release should honor each other's licenses.
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If you're taking votes, I prefer "Light" and a "Full" version over having a bunch of a-la-carte plugins.
I think I'd feel like I was getting two-bitted to death if I had to pay $5-$10 everytime wanted a bit of new functionality above what the "Light" version provided.
Besides, I think you'd find that supporting a complex matrix of plugins is a tedious undertaking.
Amen.
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I purchased version 8 a few days ago after working with it for a week. I love this program. But now I'm a little upset. Did I move too fast to pay? I could have waited until after October 1st. I like the latest and the greatest. I will want version 9. I don't want to spend more money for the newest upgrade so soon! I don't mind purchasing this program but now I regret I wasn't smarter. I saw there was a beta of version 9 out there but I assumed it would be available to me when it was ready. Now we know the old saying....don't assume or...
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1) This new forum setup is cool! 8)
2) I love MJ and know from searching, researching, trying and then crying that no other MP3 juke is as all encompassingly feature rich.
3) Jim, I don't understand this:
>>MJ Version 9.0 will be $29.98 until December 15, $44.98 after that.
It will also work with any 8.0 license bought before October 1. 8.0 licenses bought after October 1 will be upgradable for $19.98.<<
Did you mean to say v.8 licenses bought before October 1 will be upgradeable for $19.98?
4) I just purchased v.8 on Aug. 5th. Even though I love MJ and would probably pay to upgrade? My budget squeeks as does a lot of peoples' so I think the fair thing to do would be to offer free upgrades to those who purhcased within a set time frame. Say...at least 90 days prior to v.9 release. Moreover, MJ is without doubt a wonderful creation. Still even the creators of awesome apps like MJ want to attract the widest range of consumers, right? $45 will definitely limit your buyers base to serious MP3/jukebox users &/or people with money to spare. Most people I know can not or would not afford to pay $45 for any jukebox. $29.95 or maybe even $34.95 would get you more customers.
6) As for me, if there were no limits on restores and guaranteed free updates for at least one year as well as unlimited upgrades thereafter at no more than 50% of full purchase price....
I would readily pay $29.95 for MJ and tell all my friends to buy it too!! As it is now, even this great product and pricing can not outshine the clouds cast by that cursed restore limit.
Speaking of which, Jim, in another thread we discussed that the restore policies would be changing. How is that coming along? I'm now down to 1 restore due to technical difficulties and I just bought MJ 46 days ago. :'(
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Sounds like you're not using your restores correctly.
Each restore you use gives you a key that will work to unlock MJ for 14 days.
Besides that, MJ will work completely for free for 30 days.
So if you had to reinstall MJ, all you had to do was wait until the 30 days gave out, then do a restore. That restore is then good for another 14 days.
You don't have to restore everytime you install MJ. You just need to save the key you got from the last time you restored. And if it's still within 14 days from that date, then it's still valid.
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As long as JRiver continued support of Vers 8 as a basic media jukebox, then I wouldnt mind paying a bit more for vers 9 licenses and the extra features it promises; but to force people to annually pay $44.95 to continue to use MJ is quite hefty.
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...
Thanks for your comments, your business, and your referral to your friends.
Jim
Jim H,
I am actually HighWebl's mortal enemy, but yes he referred me to the software. ;) (Oh HighWebl, how you task me so). I switched from MMJB Plus, which I had two months before bought a boxed version for $24.95 (I also subscribed to MX radio for $4.95). The greatness of MJ was that compelling, and I didn't feel the price was stretching my budget.
Currently, I am considering giving my lovely sister MJ for Christmas, but $45.00 is a factor. I am torn over the new price increase. I like my sister, but I am a cheap bastard too. Spending $45 on me is ok, not on family (we are cheap, what can I say?).
Kidding aside, I worked for Mattel Interactive and was involved in one of their campaigns to break a certain software title. It broke very well indeed. The one thing I learned in that lesson was, even though the software was crap, they had their demographic group nailed. They knew whose was going to buy, why they were going to buy, what the buyer expected, and how much the buyer was willing to pay. They did this through focus groups drawn from their current customer base. They used online surveys, phones surveys and other methods of data gathering. So they sold many "broken" copies to many eager buyers.
I don't know if you are doing this, but, if you have millions at stake, it might be prudent to actually develop and some customer profiles.
I can't remember the analogy but it goes like this:
"You can build the most perfect ice cream store with all the flavors and treats and make money. Locate the store in Antartica and even the Penguins will laugh at you."
Let me say this, I really appreciate that you have brought this discussion to the forums. It makes my hope light tingle.
Nick LeFave
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What the man said. I'm of the same view as phelt...
The major reason that I bought MJ was for the Media Library and organizational abilities. For me, most of the other features are unused.
[snip]
One thing I'm concerned about is diffusion.
[snip]
Last, the restore issue: this is my only major gripe with MJ, and the thing that keeps me from recommending it to anyone.
[snip]
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Jim - my two cents and a question
As far as price point:
I think $25 is the perfect price for the software. Had you priced it higher, I probably would have kept using the stripped down version and then other free software when I needed more functionality, such as tag editing. Keep in mind that I am not an MJ / digital music fanatic like a lot of regular posters to this forum, but I do listen to music a lot, and use software tools to digitize, organize, distribute to portable players, etc. As others have mentioned I don't need some included extras like the music server... and $25 is as much as I'm willing to pay.
As far as upgrade policy (a lot of self interest involved):
Having only read about v9 on this forum (I haven't had the time to install the beta and fool around with it), I probably have a limited understanding of its features, improvements, etc. Regardless, I think that v8 license holders should get v9 for free unless there are huge improvements in core music-based functionality. That's where my interests lie, and that's why I purchased the MJ license.
And finally, a question:
I know very little about J River's business strategy as far as MJ is cocnerned, but it seems to me that if you're looking for revenue, one stable place to find it is in the manufacturers and distributors of MP3 players and jukeboxes. That's how I came into contact with Music Match (which lasted on my hard drive for about two days). I would think that enterprise type licenses with the likes of Archos or Sonic would make mroe sense then depending on consumer licenses, considering that you do little mass marketing and your product is distributed electronically.
-duhva
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I purchased version 8 a few days ago after working with it for a week. I love this program. But now I'm a little upset. Did I move too fast to pay? I could have waited until after October 1st. I like the latest and the greatest.
The wording of the pricing policy (remember -- it's still a PROPOSAL/DRAFT) needs improvement, but even as it is, I think it says what we want -- if you purchase version 8 before Oct 1 (the date may move back), YOU WILL HAVE FULL USE OF VERSION 9.0 as it is released.
Buy version 8.0 now -- get version 9.0. Exactly as you expected.
We will cut off this offer in a few weeks because you can now buy a version 9.0 license and it will work with 8.0.
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Thanks for all the feedback! I've learned from it. Keep it coming.
The pricing is still in the proposal stage, so we can make changes.
In the other thread called "Which path ..." people were split about whether MJ should focus on music or should include all media. We may end up with two products:
A lower priced product that does primarily music and a little video.
A slightly higher priced product that does everything. Audio, video, images, TV, and DVD.
BTW, did you notice that we got TV time shifting working last week? It's still rough but the hardest part is behind us. There's more on this in the MJ 9 forum. You can get there from Home above.
Again, a big thanks! You're a great help.
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How do I know if my license is for v7 or v8? I bought it while v8 was in beta. I think it is a v8 license. In that case you plan to give me a free upgrade to v9? I think that would be extremely generous. I would have guessed something like $20 for an upgrade and $30 for a new license. I would have paid the 45 also if I had to. MJ is no doubt the best piece of software on my my computer. Thanks.
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OK, my 2 cents: As I type this I am listening to MJ right now and I have it on anytime I sit at the computer. I don't have it hooked up to my stereo, I don't have it hooked up to a remote, I don't have it fetching a beer for me (I'm waiting for the version 9 plugin). I just use it when I am at my computer or when I decide to burn a CD.. light stuff that I did with Ver 7. That being said, I realize that I CANNOT do without it. I believe that the upgrade price is fair and no I don't have money to throw around. The support that I have received in this forum for ANY problem has justified my paying for this program. I really believe I got a great bargain and I feel guilty because I think I robbed a bank and got away with it. :)
The last thing I would want is for JRiver to go the way MM, Winamp etc.. Let's leave things just as they are and help to support a great program.
One Question: How do I buy a version 9 license if I don't want to download the beta and install the beta? It is too early in the development for me to install a beta, past experiences with early betas have made me a little wiser.
Listening to: 'Badlands' from 'Greatest Hits' by 'Bruce Springsteen' on Media Jukebox
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[summarized in next message by JimH]
Well, I'll say it again: If I spend my hard-earned money on MJ, I expect to be able to install and run it at anytime, any number of times. I don't want to deal with some strict restore policy. I'm still on the fence regarding purchasing for the first time, and whether or not I do will depend on this one factor. I've thought it over, and it doesn't matter if the cost is $25 or $45, I'd still want complete freedom in my number of installs. Simply put: If I buy it, I don't want to feel like I'm just "borrowing" it, or renting the program from J River. I want to feel like a consumer, in that my money was spent, and I got something I can keep forever- no matter how many times I rebuild my PC, no matter how many different internet providers I go through, no matter if the company goes out of business, no matter if the internet disappears completely. I want to be able to load it up, and use a full-functional program that I paid for, without any worry about how many more restores I have left, or things like that.
Copy protection is obviously important, but I'll say it again: When you make the honest customers go through hell and suffer crippling limitations just to evade the pirates, you're punishing the just for the actions of the unjust. The pirates will still exist, the ripoff copies will still be out there, and your customers will be frustrated by your program. To me, that sounds like a lose/lose situation. Personally, I'd rather lose some copies to pirates and have happy paying customers than lose slightly fewer copies to pirates, and have a bunch of ticked-off customers.
I mean, look at me. I found a suspicious copy, and as soon as I figured it out, I came here and downloaded a legit version, and posted news of my bogus discovery in these boards. I went a couple extra steps to be honest, and to show some respect to the creators of what I feel is a superior product. For you to turn around and say "That's great, fella. Now give us money and we'll let you use the product, but only under the strictest of guidelines, and only a limited number of times before you'll have to purchase it again" is sort of unfair. If I show my support by making a purchase, you at least owe me the same courtesy most other software designers show: Let me OWN the thing I purchased, with no strings except the EULA and perhaps some registration and a single, personalized, unrestricted registration key. When I buy The Sims, or Medal of Honor, or most other titles, the key works every time, without limits, without restrictions save for those outlined in the EULA.
Basically, by making the process restrictive, you're telling your honest customers you like their money, but don't really trust them. All it says to pirates is "Hey! Look! A challenge!"
Thus in the end, ironically enough, the pirates are the ones with the unrestricted version (because they always eventually crack things), and the paying customers don't have any such freedom.
Just consider these things before going crazy with the registration scheme. I'm set to buy this thing, but I'm not going to keep throwing money in any endless pit, just to get the same item to remain functional.
To end, I'll use an analogy: If I buy a bicycle, I get a bicycle. I can take it out of the garage at any time and use it... No matter how long it's been since I last used it, I don't have to pay for the bike again! Even if I tear down my garage and rebuild it, I don't have to pay for the bike again. When the bike company releases a newer, better set of wheels for the bike, I have the option to buy them for a cost that's likely LESS than the bike itself. If I buy those wheels, there's no limit to how many times I can put them on my bike, or replace them with the old wheels. It's my choice, because I paid for them.
When some guy steals a bike from the manufacturer's factory, they don't tell all future bike purchasers that from now on, they can only remove their wheels up to 12 times, after which they must pay to do it another dozen times. Why restrict the people who BUY the product? Instead, make it harder for thieves to get INTO the factory.
In other words, the free download should only be whatever you're willing to let pirates play with. The purchased version should be inaccessible unless a customer has paid for it, and it should be PERSONALIZED. Like a bike, it should have something akin to a serial number. When you find that there are 100 Bob Johnsons with the same serial number all entering the paying customer website, you crack down on THEM. Not the single Jim Peterson with a unique, uncopied serial number. He hasn't allowed anyone to copy his, so why should he be punished?
He shouldn't. Bob Johnson should, though.
I know I've droned on a bit, and maybe been a bit redundant, but my point should be clear by now. You're severely limiting your audience if you make registration and activation a limited thing. What I pay for should really be mine, with only one restriction: The EULA.
`Just my deep thoughts on the subject. Thanks for reading, and SORRY if it was too long. I'd hate to make anyone read more than usual.
-ZC
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[Cliff's Notes version of ZC's message by JimH ]
ZC said:
I expect to install and run MJ at anytime.
Copy protection is important, but if you make customers go through ... to evade pirates, you punish the [honest].
I found a bad copy, but I came here, downloaded and posted [about it].
Analogy: If I buy a bicycle, I get a bicycle.
[end of abridged version]
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just another post in support of purchaseing v9.x liscenses.
MJB is worth the money, if not only due to it's functionality, but esp. due to all the hard work that i have seen going into its continual development.
great work guys! :P
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>> abridged version
Thanks.
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Based on Jim's reassuring comment:
"Buy version 8.0 now -- get version 9.0. Exactly as you expected. "
I purchased V8 today......
I will add my support to the following issues:
* Firstly - the program is FANTASTIC at what I wanted, being organization of my MUSIC library! ;D
* I don't like the Microsoft-like licensing (at all) I want a permanent key that I don't have to ask a company to reinstall, especially (in these days) of company failures
* I would like the product to stay around $25 and focus on music. I have digital video and still cameras and although I like to organize my data, I wouldn't want it in MJ.
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Exactly. THAT's what I was saying, though I don't know why anybody wouldn't want to read my whole post! It was well-composed, if a tad redundant and long-winded.
`Eh... An English teacher and author among audiophiles and Cliff's notes founders... No respect. No respect at all.
::)
-ZC
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ZC while on one hand I agree with you in not being overly fond of the reg scheme I see it as a measure that JRiver had to do because of the user demographic... When selling a product to the MP3 crowd who generally have KaZaa / WinMX / Whatever p2p is flavour of the month istalled if they dont have some form of very good maximum install system in place then they face massive piracy... I remember Jim posted a log of the ip reporting for attempted cracks and it was huge over a couple of hour period. I sure know if they were my $25 a time I would have done something...
Also without wanting to argue too much... Your analogies are flawed (can you take your bicycle and clone infinate amounts of brand new identicle bicycles for almost 0 cost ??) and your idea of 'ownership' is not the way copyright on published works truly is... In fact you never 'own' software only the right to install and use said item according to the publishers wishes... If the publishers EULA was that you could install and only use for 10 seconds that is the publishers right (would not sell very well of course but I am just making a point)...
Copyright and terms of use are (IMHO) quite interesting and thorny subjects... As we head into an IP economy and a very likely DRM based future we would all be very well advised to read and learn a little about our rights and protections from both a consumer and publishers stand... One of my constant pet peeves is now that the RIAA wants to claim that all recordings are not ours to use but licensed to us as they see fit (notice the copy protected limitations on American legal 'fair use') then surely the CD is purely the medium and it is the recording I have purchased the right to listen to no ?? In that case they MUST provide me with a legal mechanism to replace at media cost only the recordings I own on damaged media ?? They cant have it both ways... Either I own the CD to do with as i see fit (I dont) Or I own the right to listen to the recording and have the media replaced...
Anyway I am rambling again !!! I dont want this to come across as a put down just felt like making some comments..
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ZC while on one hand I agree with you in not being overly fond of the reg scheme I see it as a measure that JRiver had to do because of the user demographic... When selling a product to the MP3 crowd who generally have KaZaa / WinMX / Whatever p2p is flavour of the month istalled if they dont have some form of very good maximum install system in place then they face massive piracy... I remember Jim posted a log of the ip reporting for attempted cracks and it was huge over a couple of hour period. I sure know if they were my $25 a time I would have done something...
So, are you saying that I am guilty because I use this product in the first place? Maybe JRiver could find a safer program to create. Or maybe they could work harder with their 20 developers to find a registration scheme that would be convenient to paying users and inconvenient to pirates (instead of the current method which seems to reverse that).
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You are right- The bike analogy was flawed. With software there is the threat of copying.
A better analogy would be a book.
If I buy a copy of John Grisham's "The Practice" the copyright belongs to John Grisham, but the copy of the book that I bought is mine.
I can pick it up and read it this week.
I can pick it up and read it two weeks from now.
I can pack it away, forget I had it, and then pick it up and read it five years from now.
In all cases, I don't have to re-purchase the book.
If I were a dishonest person, I could scan it into my computer and give the copies away to other people, or worse, sell it. The cost would be zero, as I've already got the computer and scanner- The same as an audiophile already has his computer and speakers. The book is easy to "crack"- in fact, it has no copy protection at all!
But I don't pirate books. Most people I know won't pirate books. First of all, the law is strict and the penalty is stiff- Same for software. Second, most honest people choose to find a way to support the author- Same for software.
If you author something good, people WILL pay for it, as a sign of gratitude if nothing else.
Now, to drone on, let's suppose they DID put a similar copy protection scheme on John Grisham's books...
I'd have to call John Grisham's publisher if I lost the registration key during all those years in storage. I might find that 10 years later, when I want to read that book, the publisher is out of business. Oh well. I can't open the book because I can't register.
That's just not fair. I paid for it. I paid for the right to use it when I see fit, as often as I see fit. If I wanted to rent the book, I'd do so- But I paid the larger price and bought it. It's in my possession, even though the actual book- the words- aren't MINE. It's Grisham's copyright, but it's at my disposal.
Copy protection IS important. I agree. I'm just saying don't use the bad guys as an excuse to limit or cheat the good guys. If I pay for it, I want unlimited access to it, and in return I promise not to give it to my friends or sell it on the 'net. What's more, I'm willing to back that up by giving the author my personal information. . . I don't even make THAT promise to John Grisham's publisher!
Protect it by all means, but do so in a way that is transparent to the end-user.
If I lose my receipt, I shouldn't have to buy the book again in order to read it.
Now, fire away with the shortened version. I just can't help being so verbose...
-ZC
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zc and pp,
If you want to debate this, please copy and paste your ammo to a new thread. I will delete it in 24 hours.
Jim
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I happened to wait until version 8 to buy, as I felt version 7 was just a bit too rough for me to register. I liked its potential, though, and paid for version 8 the very night that I first downloaded it. I do not mind that I may have to pay for version 9 because that's just what you normally do. It remains to be seen, however, whether or not the price to performance ratio is good for me. Version 8 is so good that I might not feel the need for an upgrade. I'm not saying I'm a cheapskate; I'm saying that version 8 is truly a work of art.
Bill
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Version 8 is so good that I might not feel the need for an upgrade. I'm not saying I'm a cheapskate; I'm saying that version 8 is truly a work of art.
Thanks, Bill. We consider that a high complement.
Sometimes there is some noise here about how we're ripping people off for this or that. We truly want you to feel like you got a good deal. Even better if you feel like you got more than we promised.
That doesn't mean we won't try to convince you that V9 makes V8 look bad. ;)
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I honestly didn't think I would be buying Version 9. Mainly because I had set out to find a jukebox app with a certain feature set. I found all of those features and more in MJ 8. I was set.
But then I tried 9. And I know I'm going to wind up buying it because I get all that I wanted and even more stuff that I realize would be really cool to have.
Plus, I think I'm addicted to suggesting features and having them show up. As long as that continues, you've got a steady customer. :)
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Doof,
The check is in the mail.
Jim
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Doof Is JimH Paying you to say good things?
Did you need to sign an Agreement?
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Yeah, it's all documented right here in my Official Interact Moderator Membership Kit.
Didn't you get yours?
The check was very generous, although I thought the No-Compete Clause was a bit over the top.
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First i am one of those who said many times i was ready to pay $50 for MJ.
But i said at the same with some extra features and having learning to use MJ.This needs more than the 30 days free trial.
The extra features are for me some plugin who allow you to work inside MJ.
This programs exist,are at 90% free.I mean :find duplicates,check quality and some other small 'smart things'.Having this kind of programs integrated in MJ,would make me spend even more than the price of 9,if each plugin to be buy
And i still say it.
My first question is :what knew in 9 concerning music?
No picture ,Capuccino plugin,just music
I know"Zevele try it" is the answer,and yes i will.
I have a 7 license,the price i have to pay to get 9 is fair to me.
I am sure that the price of 9 is fair as well .
But the price of 9 is to high,no matter if it is a bargain in front of what it gives.
I do not say 9 is too much expensive,i say the price of 9 is to high
When i brought MJ,i was looking for a jukebox playing mp3cds encoded.Not with a small interface like WinAmp,not with f..windows opening everywhere like MM.Of cause not of color blue.Yes i forgot to check if Mj was playing a sound when....by the way.
Mister average,yes you are right,but like most of people on the net.
I was far away from tag3v5543-8 and super-tag cd45,from replay gain and all this stuff.
I would NEVER EVER had spend $45 on MJ at this time.And not on any other jukebox.
You have to understand that people have still the reaction of 'before the web'.
If they buy an expensive software,or it is in a box with a notice or it is a very important one like a new Windows.
In this case ,for most of the people it is a very special thing,most of the time meaning to take the computer to the shop.
To buy "wind' [a player,a zip,a jukebox] ,to buy without getting a physical thing,was and still is a few $ fantasie
Because of it ,9 has a too high price.People will not buy it.
As i said many times, last summer i brought a MM box TO EACH of my nephews and nieces.
Not one for all,because the box was a present,was a physical present.One or two for all was "wind'
Or in this case MJ takes the way of a very specific high-end product.
To sell throught Cnet and other places like it ,$45 is much much too much[Zevele's english]
Do not know if it is possible but here is what i think:
To have 8 and 9 on the market.
Just put out a 8.999 with the troubleshootings and the progress on some weak fonctions you did when building 9
MJ 8 =$25
MJ9=$45
Update 8 to 9 =none
MJ7 license good for 7and 8 as now
Special option :MJ 8 owners can buy 9 for $?? instead of $ 45.
But i speak about to have two products,not only one.
Anyway ,spending $45 on 9 would allow me to select few thousand Emusic song ,set them to delete genre and not having MJ blowing up?
I am teasing you,but i as many others would like better to pay to have some fonctions really working 100% than to have pictures flying around the monitor
I am not sure to buy 9.Because of the licence.The key on a floppy is very good to my computer inexperience
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<snip>
Plus, I think I'm addicted to suggesting features and having them show up. As long as that continues, you've got a steady customer. :)
Also reporting bug fixes and having them fixed THE SAME DAY you report it! Don't forget about THAT. :)
Bill
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New upgrade policy works for me ;D
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I first tried MJ over a year ago just to play a few mp3 files. I liked MJ because it tries to be just another windows app. No funkdafied rounded interface or rediculous colors every dang where. Just the standard square windows with the _OX at the top.
THEN you can turn on skins when you want.
1 year later I came back and BOUGHT MJ because of that but also because it was like $25. If it were more than $25 I would also be using winamp. My main feature was the library management, AND the ripping in one program.
Later I discovered,
1. Media Server
2. Download Manager
I would pay upto $29.99 for MJ, but I don't use portable mp3 player, or have need of any other features. Likely I wont get v9 simple because what else do I need?
As for restores, I have installed MJ countless times. You only need to restore when you loose your key. I am not loosing my key. I wasted a restore because I didn't know what it was used for.
The only new functionality I require is handling multiple users on NT oses.
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This thread and the thread called "Which Path..." are both closed now and a new thread here starts with a description of what we learned from them and our reaction:
http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1033151899
Thanks to everyone who helped.