INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 12 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: Doof on November 19, 2007, 04:33:14 pm
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I know you don't want to go into too much detail about the top secret neural net algorithm you've got going on with Radio Mode, but just so I know where to focus my efforts, what tag(s) are weighted most heavily when MC makes a decision about what to play? Will I be better served diversifying my Genres (rather than 5 or 6 I've standardized on now)? Or will I see better results by concentrating on rating my music?
Because right now, MC seems kinda lazy about picking what to play. I queued up a Metallica song (off the S&M album) and after it was done playing MC picked out Megadeth (Cryptic Writings), then Marilyn Manson (Remix and Repent), then went back to Metallica (S&M again), then back to Megadeth (Cryptic Writings), then back to Marilyn Manson (Remix & Repent), rinse and repeat.
So what is MC fixating on here? Is it a love for bands that start with the letter M? The Metal genre? I've got a total of 31 albums by these three bands. Why is MC focusing just on these three? Is it genre? These three bands are the only ones that have Metal assigned to their genre, but again, with 31 albums to choose from, why just these three? If MC just needs more diverse data to work with, I can do that, but where do I focus my efforts? Or is it just a bug?
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It would be nice to get an answer on this. I have started rating songs as I never had anything rated, plus I'm planning on making my genres more specific. But it would be even nicer not to have to do this just to make radio more efficient.
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It's a balancing act between playing similar things and pigeon holing.
If it seems too repetitive, try skipping a few times. Remember that plays and skips are like votes, so if you don't like what it's doing, you need to tell it.
Radio looks at artist, album, genre, era, rating, and the last played date. Everything is based on probability so you might also get a more repetitive or more diverse mix based on random chance alone.
If it's consistently doing something silly, let us know and maybe we can tune it some more.
Thanks.
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...
If it's consistently doing something silly, let us know and maybe we can tune it some more.
Thanks.
Mine will cruise along fine but then it will pull in stuff from my Christmas genre and at times stuff from my Halloween genre (sound fx or spoken word stuff).
Please create an option to ignore user specified genres.
Thanks.
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It's a _radio_. It's just playing music for you.
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It's a _radio_. It's just playing music for you.
It doesn't always play music. As I said above, it sometimes plays spoken word stuff or sound effects (and seasonal holiday music). Certainly a little more intelligence could be built into it to ignore specified genres. From a programming standpoint this is not a farfetched request.
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You could use Access Control to filter stuff out of radio playback. It's easy and flexible.
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You could use Access Control to filter stuff out of radio playback. It's easy and flexible.
Perfect! Thanks for a solution. Radio can now be useful for me and will get plenty of use.
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Perfect! Thanks for a solution. Radio can now be useful for me and will get plenty of use.
Not perfect. I'm already using Access Control to filter out stuff. I don't want to have to keep messing around with it just to keep Radio Mode in check.
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And in my case Radio plays my Podcasts which I don't want to.
If I use access control, my Podcasts will never be played anymore, not even in normal mode.
So to use Radio, I have to setup Access Control first, play radio.
When finished, I don't have to forget to turn off access control,
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It is possible to play the files under a certain view scheme as radio:
right-click the view scheme (in the tree) > send to > play (optional zone name) > play as radio
You just need to create a view scheme that excludes the unwanted files.
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It is possible to play the files under a certain view scheme as radio:
right-click the view scheme (in the tree) > send to > play (optional zone name) > play as radio
You just need to create a view scheme that excludes the podcast files.
I'd be interested to see this tested. I suspect that this uses the contents of the View Scheme as a seed, but does not limit the radio exclusively to those contents (eg Podcasts could still get picked, though it'd probably be less likely). Perhaps Matt could comment.
On another semi-related note...
I've been using the Radio function extremely heavily for the past few weeks since it was implemented. My wife loves it, as I've attested to before, and it was also a pretty big hit with some of our other good friends (who have a passing understanding of MC). However...
They've both asked again and again for an easier way to start the radio up in seeded mode. Starting it "unseeded" is certainly easy. However, as it is now, you have to dig down into the Send To menu to start it up in Seeded mode This is a bit too much for some of my users, particularly because I have three Zones configured and they don't know which one to use intuitively.
I'd really like to see Play As Radio promoted to the top level Right-Click menu just under Play and Add to Playing Now. As is, I always have to show them, and then it's in the "remembered commands list" (so they just use it there), and then they forget how to drill down to Send To to find it again the next time they want it. So they ask me again, complain that it is hard to find... Rinse, wash, repeat.
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You are correct, it doesn't work as I expected.
As a test I created a view scheme that contains only one album and sent the view scheme to play as radio.
It seems that MC plays anything from the library that happens to have the same genre tag (Electronic in this case).
EDIT
Looks like it is not restricted to that. It just picked up a Hard Rock song.
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It is possible to play the files under a certain view scheme as radio:
right-click the view scheme (in the tree) > send to > play (optional zone name) > play as radio
You just need to create a view scheme that excludes the unwanted files.
Play as Radio uses the selected files as seeds for picking more similar music. I often play as radio after picking a single song.
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I'd really like to see Play As Radio promoted to the top level Right-Click menu just under Play and Add to Playing Now. As is, I always have to show them, and then it's in the "remembered commands list" (so they just use it there), and then they forget how to drill down to Send To to find it again the next time they want it. So they ask me again, complain that it is hard to find... Rinse, wash, repeat.
Another, and perhaps better option IMHO, would be to do as was asked in the other threads on this topic and add a Radio Mode button up next to the DSP Studio button. When MC is in Radio Mode, double clicking on a song would act the same as Send to --> Play --> Play As Radio. It would play the song immediately, and use it as the new radio seed from there on out. If you aren't in Radio Mode, then MC would work normally. Of course, if the user just clicked the Radio Mode button with nothing playing (or did Player --> Radio) the it would start unseeded Radio as it does now.
I still think the icon for the button could be a cool old-style 1940's Radio Antenna looking thing, which either lights up, or adds "bolts" (or both), when enabled.
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Here are the first 16 tracks from tonight's program. "Air - Moon Safari" was the seed.
The second screenshot is of PN filled with my 1662 Electronic tracks in the most played order.
Looks like the DJ likes to pick up rarities...
Anyway, the selected music is good... :)
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That reminds me.... I keep meaning to check out Yello.
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10. Changed: Radio playback renamed slightly to Player > Play Radio. (no longer in send to menu)
11. NEW: When starting radio playback, a dialog is shown that allows customization of what is eligible for playback.
I assume this was changed somewhat in response to this thread... However, the effect seems to have been to remove the ability to "seed" the Radio. I attempted to select a file and then choose Player --> Play Radio. It did NOT play the file I had selected.
Can it be changed so that the song selected at the time you choose Play Radio is used as the Seed, and plays first?
I like the simple rule selection method you provided. I'm not at all sure if the pop-up dialog is the best way to go, or if an option under Options --> Playback (or Options --> Radio) would be a better plan. If the pop-up is kept, I'd really prefer a "Don't Show This Again" checkbox (with an accompanying way to force it to show if you need to modify the rule). Once my exclusion rule is set (it already has been), I don't need to see it again for the vast majority of the time.
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This is looking real good here.
The seed song option is one I liked, so I hope it comes back. I agree with glynor that there should be a do not show this dialog option unless ctrl clicked or something.
I am REALLY hoping though that Radio mode has an Always On option so that no matter how I play MC, radio is sitting there in the background waiting to be played whenever playing now ends. Kind of like Automatic Shuffle.
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nice. i like the new radio. the 'smartlist' gives me the possibility to leave things out, or make sure that it does not get in a loop only choosing songs from three albums. the 'smartlist' seems to be refreshed every song, which is nice.
i agree with glynor though:
I assume this was changed somewhat in response to this thread... However, the effect seems to have been to remove the ability to "seed" the Radio. I attempted to select a file and then choose Player --> Play Radio. It did NOT play the file I had selected.
Can it be changed so that the song selected at the time you choose Play Radio is used as the Seed, and plays first?
I like the simple rule selection method you provided. I'm not at all sure if the pop-up dialog is the best way to go, or if an option under Options --> Playback (or Options --> Radio) would be a better plan. If the pop-up is kept, I'd really prefer a "Don't Show This Again" checkbox (with an accompanying way to force it to show if you need to modify the rule). Once my exclusion rule is set (it already has been), I don't need to see it again for the vast majority of the time.
and datdude I am REALLY hoping though that Radio mode has an Always On option so that no matter how I play MC, radio is sitting there in the background waiting to be played whenever playing now ends. Kind of like Automatic Shuffle.
and maybe a mcc command to just play radio?
thanks a lot
gab
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Well, it's a start. But it's effectively broken Radio for Theater View.
I'd really like to see some way to make it accessible from Theater View and some way of making it not ask me everytime what settings to use but still let me change them later if I need to. I'd also like to throw my vote in to see the return of the seed. Then it'd be pretty near perfect to me.
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Well, it's a start. But it's effectively broken Radio for Theater View.
I'd really like to see some way to make it accessible from Theater View and some way of making it not ask me everytime what settings to use but still let me change them later if I need to. I'd also like to throw my vote in to see the return of the seed. Then it'd be pretty near perfect to me.
Maybe a toolbar button that gives a dropdown menu to choose from "Play Radio from Library" and "Play Radio from Selected"
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No response back and no word on losing the Seeded Radio function?
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We had a big lunch.
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Mmmmmmmm.... I love lunch. Big ones where you get to goof off at work (and sometimes drink beer) are even better. :)
That's fine. Enjoy the holiday!
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Radio MC is top-drawer this morning!
It's been broadcasting almost 2½ hours and I've not had to skip a track in over an hour now.
The new exclusions option has had me tuning in once more, and I'm happy.
Seeded radio would be nice to have back, but if unseeded can suss me out as quick as this every time, I could live without.
The options dialogue was a welcome relief the first time I used it, but having set my exclusions, I'm done, and now I just expect the radio to tune in when I click its' entry under the player menu. It's quite jarring when the options thing pops up and I need to click play a second time. This will get tidied up some way won't it? Either of the two options already suggested would work for me.
While typing this, the playlist hit the 2½ hour mark, it has started playing dupes... co-incidence or duration limitation?
-marko.
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I assume this was changed somewhat in response to this thread... However, the effect seems to have been to remove the ability to "seed" the Radio. I attempted to select a file and then choose Player --> Play Radio. It did NOT play the file I had selected.
Since the 380 build "went public" and the holiday is well in our rearview mirrors.... Here I am again. My favorite use for the Radio function was the "seeded" radio play. I haven't once used the Radio function since this change was made...
Are we going to get it back???
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I did not find that "Radio" worked all that good for me
All my files are tagged, analyzed, stamped, Homogenized, and Formaldehyded (not sure adding a "D" makes this a real word)
I can't see how I went from Benny Goodman to P. Diddy
I think more power needs to be given to the people.
that was A LSD flashback
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Maybe Puff Diddy did a cover of one of his songs. :D
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I think he would be a bit older then, unless he is using a new skin\body cream.
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Radio learns what you like if you skip tracks you don't like.
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Radio learns what you like if you skip tracks you don't like.
But does radio remember what I've skipped 1 week ago or is it just remembering during 1 play session ?
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Just one. It can't assume you'll be in the same mood next time. The options let you narrow it down though.
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It seems to me that the ability to seed was a good way of having radios instead of one radio. No?
While the new options seem nice, I've stopped using it as well since seeding has disappeared.
Just one. It can't assume you'll be in the same mood next time. The options let you narrow it down though.
Well, why not use seeding as a basic indication of the mood we're in?
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Yeah, the current incarnation of Radio is pretty much useless to me. The big draw of it for me was to use it from Theater View, and now there's no way to even turn it on from Theater View. Even if I could, having the dialog box popup every time would quickly discourage me from ever using it again.
It was so close before, and all it needed was a set-it-and-forget-it customization option. Mainly just a way of excluding certain types of tracks - I don't think anybody really wanted to tell it what TO play, just what NOT TO play. Other than that, the only complaint I had was that it didn't seem to branch out enough. I would have 13 albums by an artist, and it would keep picking songs off the same album.
So, it seemed to be really close to perfect before, just needed some minor tweaking. Now it needs an overhaul, IMO.
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I'm sorry, i don't miss it, I prefer unseeded. I always thought the seeded algorithm was problematic, often getting stuck on artists and/or albums. Unseeded is simple and effective, and devoid of any of the pinky-finger-lifting that seeded playback smacked of. And besides, I'm not convinced that seeding really had an effect-if may just have been Matt's little joke on us.
More meaningful to me would be a nice big button: RADIO.
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I'm sorry, i don't miss it, I prefer unseeded. I always thought the seeded algorithm was problematic, often getting stuck on artists and/or albums. Unseeded is simple and effective, and devoid of any of the pinky-finger-lifting that seeded playback smacked of. And besides, I'm not convinced that seeding really had an effect-if may just have been Matt's little joke on us.
More meaningful to me would be a nice big button: RADIO.
That's all well and good, but the seeding option was the only way to get it started in Theater View. And having the option to seed it wasn't preventing anybody from starting it unseeded.
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Ok I just got done playing with radio
Note my comments were from the versions prior to the added control, and have not played with it since, at least now i can select a Genre, Mood etc...
It seems like it works better now for me
Make You Smile' by '+44'
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And having the option to seed it wasn't preventing anybody from starting it unseeded.
Yeah, can't we just go back to that and everyone's happy?
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Tab wouldn't be happy.
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Tab wouldn't be happy.
Well... I'm never too sure if Mr. Green can ever be "really" happy (at least not as happy as the tabs made him). Alas, I'm not sure that he was a seeded-radio-hater. Was he?
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I'm sorry, i don't miss it, I prefer unseeded. I always thought the seeded algorithm was problematic, often getting stuck on artists and/or albums.
Q.E.D.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.)
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I can see the benefits of the new radio system however, 2 questions...
1) Can the Radio presets be saved? Can I have a 'station' that plays party music, a station that plays easy music, and a classical station. Can I have these saved, and accessible?
2) Seeded radio. Can we please have it back? I agree with glynor as to its general usefulness. It's *really* nice to just say "I feel like listening stuff similar to <this track>". I definitely dont want to lose the new system, however the old seeded syetm allowed for more impromptu/insipred(by the track) use. Sure, it may not have been perfect, but it still seemed to do a pretty darn good job for my collection.
Cheers,
C.
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2) Seeded radio. Can we please have it back?
Seedy Radio will probably return.
Would it work to build the station off whatever track is currently being played? Sort of like what Captain Kirk did when they put the Startship Enterprise into Warp Mode?
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Would it work to build the station off whatever track is currently being played? Sort of like what Captain Kirk did when they put the Startship Enterprise into Warp Mode?
Yep. But slower.
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Seedy Radio will probably return.
Would it work to build the station off whatever track is currently being played? Sort of like what Captain Kirk did when they put the Startship Enterprise into Warp Mode?
This would be ideal.
If you turn radio on, it should seed itself with whatever track (or tracks) are currently in Playing Now. If nothing is playing, it should use the regular Radio Mode. One last thing...
I really think you should be able to do a Add to Playing Now which would change to a specified new track, but not disable Radio mode, and use the new track as the new seed.
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Seedy Radio will probably return.
Would it work to build the station off whatever track is currently being played? Sort of like what Captain Kirk did when they put the Startship Enterprise into Warp Mode?
That would be fine with me as long as it somehow becomes accessible from Theater View (which naturally means that the "What should Radio play?" dialog box needs some reworking).
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I also would like to see the seeded radio function back in. I loved that feature!
Even if it did not work that well, it works better than skipping through several songs before MC finally recongises which mood you are in.
It would be better to optimise the seeding protocol instead of removing the whole idea.
Cheers.
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This would be ideal.
If you turn radio on, it should seed itself with whatever track (or tracks) are currently in Playing Now. If nothing is playing, it should use the regular Radio Mode. One last thing...
I really think you should be able to do a Add to Playing Now which would change to a specified new track, but not disable Radio mode, and use the new track as the new seed.
perfect
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This would be ideal.
If you turn radio on, it should seed itself with whatever track (or tracks) are currently in Playing Now. If nothing is playing, it should use the regular Radio Mode. One last thing...
I really think you should be able to do a Add to Playing Now which would change to a specified new track, but not disable Radio mode, and use the new track as the new seed.
yes. :)
it would also be nice if you could use an album as seed, so that it would first play the album and then goes on playing radio using what is in playing now. and i would really like it when i could put on the radio using my remote (via a mcc command).
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Radio looks at artist, album, genre, era, rating, and the last played date. Everything is based on probability so you might also get a more repetitive or more diverse mix based on random chance alone.
this means that intensity and bpm are not used, like you first planned? if so, i was thinking about copying intensity to genre, makes more sense to me then my empty genre fields. :)
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another thing about radio: when playing radio and starting up some image playback (an other zone is created), radio stops after the current playing song is finished.
edit: this does not happen when a dedicated zone is used for image playback.
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Eeerr! I'm really hesitant to post here, as I already feel embarrased to ask ...
What is "seeded" and "unseeded"? ?
Or can someone direct me to a place where I can read about it...?
Please don't ban me from MC forum for asking what I got a feeling is a REAL Stoopid question. :P
Cosmic
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Eeerr! I'm really hesitant to post here, as I already feel embarrased to ask ...
What is "seeded" and "unseeded"? ?
Or can someone direct me to a place where I can read about it...?
Please don't ban me from MC forum for asking what I got a feeling is a REAL Stoopid question. :P
Cosmic
not stupid. :)
before, you could choose when rightclicking on a song, play as radio. using that song as a seed for the next songs radio would pick, using genre, artist etc of that song.
or you could just say play radio (as is now) which would 'just start with something', = unseeded.
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Ok! Got it.
Then my reaction would be as usual, to have choices is always good, to be able to Choose "seeded" or "unseeded" , as all are requesting to be re-instated.
Thanks Gappie
Cosmic
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Seedy Radio will probably return.
Would it work to build the station off whatever track is currently being played? Sort of like what Captain Kirk did when they put the Startship Enterprise into Warp Mode?
That would work for me. Looking at the main 'Player' menu, I see Play Radio, shuffle, and repeat. Both shuffle and repeat have multiple options. It doesn't mean the Radio should have 2 options, but if it did I would love to see them be 'Play this time only' and 'Play Always'.
The Play Always option would sit in the background waiting till playing now ended to start playing. It would hopefully persist across MC startups. Think of it like the Automatic shuffle option, its only there when needed!
It would also work for seeding, since you could simply just play one song at startup or whenever and it would base it on the last playing song.
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I've got the ultimate stoopid question. I found this topic very interesting but, I can't seem to find this "radio" mode. In my "Player" menu I see Shuffle and Repeat but, nothing like "play radio". What am I missing?
Thanks
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I've got the ultimate stoopid question. I found this topic very interesting but, I can't seem to find this "radio" mode. In my "Player" menu I see Shuffle and Repeat but, nothing like "play radio". What am I missing?
Thanks
You need to upgrade to the latest version of the player. Check the top of this board.
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But does radio remember what I've skipped 1 week ago or is it just remembering during 1 play session ?
from JimH...
Just one. It can't assume you'll be in the same mood next time. The options let you narrow it down though.
Isn't it possble to add a tick/untick for those whom would like radio to remember their last selection? Or a "save radio setting/memory as..."
I love the radio option now that I've got to know it (and would also still request the seeded back) , but while working for instance I have a certain preference , when I relaxing another and when entertaining another. I think it would be cool to be able to "save radio memory" option. :)
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I've got the latest MC and there's supposed be the "seeded" option nw, but I can't find it when going to the "Player" drop down menu ...
Am I missing it somewhere , or is radio just automatically "seeded" now?
Also, could MC please respond to my previous question ...
Isn't it possble to add a tick/untick for those whom would like radio to remember their last selection? Or a "save radio setting/memory as..."
I love the radio option now that I've got to know it (and would also still request the seeded back) , but while working for instance I have a certain preference , when I relaxing another and when entertaining another. I think it would be cool to be able to "save radio memory" option.
Thanks
Cosmic
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I've got the latest MC and there's supposed be the "seeded" option nw, but I can't find it when going to the "Player" drop down menu ...
Am I missing it somewhere , or is radio just automatically "seeded" now?
Thanks
Cosmic
select a file. than player > play radio and select 'use currently selected files for radio playback'.
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Is there any way once you do this to not stop the currently playing song when you use the currently selected song for the seed?
I couldn't find an option to do this. I would think that we would just base it off of what you have selected and not restart the playing song from the beginning.
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Question about how it uses ratings:
If I 'skip' a 1 or 2 rated song, does it take the rating in to account as a primary driving factor? Say for instance I have an artist with 20 tracks in my library and only 5 of those tracks are ones that I would normally want to listen to. If radio mode serves up a 1 or 2 rated song and I skip it, does that mean that it will avoid other tracks from that same artist/genre even though they are highly rated?
To me:
1 = never listen to (since 0 = unrated).
2 = normally don't want to hear.
Just curious if it would be best to set the radio filter to ignore 1-2 rated tracks all together.
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I really think you should be able to do a Add to Playing Now which would change to a specified new track, but not disable Radio mode, and use the new track as the new seed.
Just a bump here on this!
It would be nice if there was an always on feature to Radio, i.e. whenever music ends in any situation, Radio always kicks in, and As Glynor suggested just the last track as the seed.