INTERACT FORUM

More => Old Versions => Media Center 12 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: dcehl on March 05, 2008, 11:25:59 am

Title: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: dcehl on March 05, 2008, 11:25:59 am
I don't understand why itunes can play all my songs at the same level while MC 12 cannot!

I love everything about MC - except this!

If there's anything that can be done for the next update - pleeeeeaaaase!
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: gappie on March 05, 2008, 11:51:41 am
are all your songs analysed and have you enabled volume leveling?
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: Matt on March 05, 2008, 12:12:41 pm
Read about MC's "Replay Gain" system in the help file.

JRiver Media Center was one of the first adopters of Replay Gain, so it's been in the program for years.  It's arguably the best system available for volume levelling.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: m1abrams on March 05, 2008, 12:18:24 pm
As posted MC uses Replay Gain which has become the defacto standard for volume leveling and is rather good.  iTunes like everything else chooses not to play well with others.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: newsposter on March 05, 2008, 12:47:43 pm
and that virtual sound you hear in the background is the virtual shrink wrap being taken torn of the virtual manuals.........
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: NoBS on March 05, 2008, 01:29:12 pm
I need to add my 2 pesos by adding the replay gain works very well on my set-up.
Even on so-so DRM audio books that are analysed will play nice.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: Doof on March 05, 2008, 02:12:35 pm
It does work very well. With that said, it might not be a bad idea to make it more easy to find and use.

When a user is used to WMP and iTunes, which both put the volume leveling function front and center in the options dialog, rather than in the DSP studio, then it can be a little challenging for the new user to even know this option exists. Even if they find it, there's really nothing there that informs them that they need to run the Analyze Audio tool before it will work. Both of WMP and iTunes automatically analyze the files if that option is turned on.

It's one of those features that, once you get get used to it, you can't really live without it. And if you're looking to switch from WMP or iTunes to MC, it might be a red mark if you can't find it, or worse, find it in DSP, turn it on, and then have it not work as expected.

Even a simple prompt that lets users know that Analyze Audio needs to be run before it can perform Volume Leveling, and a button that will automatically run that tool with all of their audio files loaded for them would be a huge useability improvement. But even then, I think this is a feature that needs to be more prominent somehow.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: gappie on March 05, 2008, 02:31:03 pm
If there's anything that can be done for the next update - pleeeeeaaaase!
it depends on when you come back to read the answers and when the next update will be there.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: Matt on March 05, 2008, 03:26:20 pm
Auto import can analyze audio.  It runs at a very low priority and throttles itself so it never uses more than a few percent of the CPU.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: Doof on March 05, 2008, 04:11:23 pm
Auto import can analyze audio.  It runs at a very low priority and throttles itself so it never uses more than a few percent of the CPU.

Is that option on by default? I just had to dig around in options to try and find it, finally did, only to see that it was off. Honestly, I can't remember if I explicity turned it off, but I don't think I did. If it's off by default, then it doesn't really help a new user. Especially since, even if they find the option, it's not clear what it does or why it's a good thing.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: gummbah on March 06, 2008, 01:41:45 pm
As posted MC uses Replay Gain which has become the defacto standard for volume leveling and is rather good.  iTunes like everything else chooses not to play well with others.

this made me laugh as replay gain is indeed standard, but the way MC has implemented is NOT standard.
It's an early version of the replay gain standard. MC does not recognise replay gain values added by other players (e.g. winamp, foobar), nor do these other players recognise the values calculated by MC
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: JimH on March 06, 2008, 02:48:05 pm
this made me laugh as replay gain is indeed standard, but the way MC has implemented is NOT standard.
 
It's an early version of the replay gain standard.
We weren't aware of any revision to the standard.  Can you point to one?

We implemented the standard as originally proposed.  Others apparently were more creative.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: Alex B on March 06, 2008, 03:32:16 pm
this made me laugh as replay gain is indeed standard, but the way MC has implemented is NOT standard.
It's an early version of the replay gain standard.

The proposed standard is about how the replay gain values are measured and how the playback correction system is handled. It doesn't suggest how applications should store the measured values. You must remember that JRiver had its system years before Winamp got official RG support or foobar2000 even existed.

Quote
MC does not recognise replay gain values added by other players (e.g. winamp, foobar), nor do these other players recognise the values calculated by MC

This is correct, though for example WMP does not save anything and iTunes uses a proprietary way for storing its "Sound Check" values.

IMO, JRiver could consider changing the tagging system to be compatible with the system that is used in Winamp, Foobar, Rockbox and some HW players/network clients. This would be the only reasonable option if the goal is to achieve better interoperability.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: gummbah on March 06, 2008, 03:53:56 pm
IMO, JRiver could consider changing the tagging system to be compatible with the system that is used in Winamp, Foobar, Rockbox and some HW players/network clients. This would be the only reasonable option if the goal is to achieve better interoperability.
I would very much support this. I use separate players and now I need to calculate twice.
Although the automatic audio analyses in recent builds has certainly made life much easier  ;D
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: ogurgey on March 06, 2008, 04:41:22 pm
IMO, JRiver could consider changing the tagging system to be compatible with the system that is used in Winamp, Foobar, Rockbox and some HW players/network clients. This would be the only reasonable option if the goal is to achieve better interoperability.

I had MC analyse anything but my classical collection.  It's something like 50K files to re-analyze, if MC would change the way RG works.  If the transition should be just switching the current tags to other tags, I would say, keep it the way it is.  Come on, if I ever would go checking on another player, I would not fiddle around with the RG values at first.  And if I should consider the other player be better than MC, in the long run, i would gladly make this looooong recalculation of my library.

I would say, with a feature like RD, play it safe, let's not overrate interoperability.  If I would have "some" music, I could go shopping for a new player now and then, which I did some years ago.  MC is good, but there is still plenty of stuff, which should be made better, and discussed in the forum.  Let's concentrate on things, that could be added, fixed, or made better.  RG ist just fine.

My 2 kurus for this   
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: rjm on March 06, 2008, 10:12:22 pm
I agree with ogurgey.

I don't think you should change anything. I don't care about interoperability and I definately do not want to reanalyze my library. This is a really big deal for those of us with large libraries. It would take a very long time, and it would touch every file with the inherent risks this creates.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: gummbah on March 07, 2008, 12:49:14 am
I agree with ogurgey.

I don't think you should change anything. I don't care about interoperability and I definately do not want to reanalyze my library. This is a really big deal for those of us with large libraries. It would take a very long time, and it would touch every file with the inherent risks this creates.

You wouldn't need to re-analyse your files, MC could just copy the RP values from one tag to another for files already analysed and write RG values to different tags for new files.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: llafriel on March 07, 2008, 01:05:01 am
I agree with ogurgey.

I don't care about interoperability and I definately do not want to reanalyze my library.
Some of us do. It'd be a huge bonus to me to have the RG info from MC work in my mp3 player and in SlimServer. One could maybe do it as gummbah proposed or have an option, old and new type of rg?
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: rjm on March 07, 2008, 02:05:58 am
Yes, an option to choose between old and new rg would be fine.

Just to clarify my concern...

I am very fussy about my library. I analyse, tag, rename, and do a manual quality control check on every file before commiting it to my library. If RG changes such that tags must be rewritten then every file in my library will be modified and there will be no humanly possible way for me to be certain that errors were not inadvertently introduced.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: jimn on March 11, 2008, 12:43:19 pm
The proposed standard is about how the replay gain values are measured and how the playback correction system is handled. It doesn't suggest how applications should store the measured values. You must remember that JRiver had its system years before Winamp got official RG support or foobar2000 even existed.

This is correct, though for example WMP does not save anything and iTunes uses a proprietary way for storing its "Sound Check" values.

IMO, JRiver could consider changing the tagging system to be compatible with the system that is used in Winamp, Foobar, Rockbox and some HW players/network clients. This would be the only reasonable option if the goal is to achieve better interoperability.

Does anybody know what the standard tag is? I did some looking and found three id3 "custom" tags for storing replay gain; RGAD XRVA & RVA2. The first is supposed to be obsolete, the second experimental, and the third is supposedly for v.4.

Any details about the system for storing replay gain that everyone uses would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
JimN
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: Alex B on March 11, 2008, 01:39:52 pm
Does anybody know what the standard tag is? I did some looking and found three id3 "custom" tags for storing replay gain; RGAD XRVA & RVA2. The first is supposed to be obsolete, the second experimental, and the third is supposedly for v.4.

Any details about the system for storing replay gain that everyone uses would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
JimN

There are no official standards. From the top of my head I can list at least five different methods for storing replaygain or other volume leveling info:

- foobar2000/Winamp/Rockbox/FLAC (calculated by the encoder)/etc
- LAME (calculated by the encoder, stored in the LAME info tag)
- JRiver
- MP3Gain (uses APE tags instead of ID3v2x)
- iTunes

The foobar2000/Winamp/Rockbox/FLAC/etc system is the de facto standard that is accepted by many developers.

I have outlined what would be needed to convert the JRiver tags in this post:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=38695.msg263284#msg263284
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: jimn on March 18, 2008, 01:54:35 pm

The foobar2000/Winamp/Rockbox/FLAC/etc system is the de facto standard that is accepted by many developers.

I have outlined what would be needed to convert the JRiver tags in this post:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=38695.msg263284#msg263284

I implemented this standard for track replay gain and peak. In the next build.
JimN
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: Alex B on March 18, 2008, 02:01:18 pm
I implemented this standard for track replay gain and peak. In the next build.
JimN

Thanks. This is very interesting. I suppose we can discuss about the changes in the beta forum before the public release.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: gummbah on March 18, 2008, 05:24:35 pm
I implemented this standard for track replay gain and peak. In the next build.
JimN

This is really exciting! Looking forward to the release.
Cheers and thanks. I love the way you interact with your users.
Never seen that before.
Title: Re: Please work on a more powerful Volume Leveling tool!!
Post by: JimH on March 20, 2008, 03:15:20 pm
Please use this thread  (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=45711.0)to continue the discussion.