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More => Old Versions => Media Center 15 (Development Ended) => Topic started by: robbbby on December 15, 2010, 09:46:19 pm

Title: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: robbbby on December 15, 2010, 09:46:19 pm
Hi guys, recently purchased MC15, still trying to get everything imported and setup.  My main use for this software will be for music playback, I will mainly be running in theatre view using  a touchscreen.
I was just wondering if there was anyway to tag my music for multiple genres?

I'd really love to be able to tag certain music with multiple genres (let's use genres "a", "b" and "c" as an example),  and then when browsing through the music all the artists tagged as such will show up under any of the three above mentioned genres.

I'm sure I will have many more questions in the near future, i'm going to start reading through the wiki since I am sure it will answer a lot more of my questions.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: rick.ca on December 16, 2010, 12:42:29 am
Welcome, robbbby.

Quote
I was just wondering if there was anyway to tag my music for multiple genres?

Yes, but not (in a straightforward manner) using the the standard Genre. It's a string field meant for recording only one value. I suggest using that for a high level classification—classical, rock, jazz, r&b, etc. That's probably appropriate, because that's the level of classification the normal meaning of the word refers to anyway. Music can overlap even those classifications, but most clearly "belongs" in just one such class.

You can break such classes down further by using a list field. You might call that Styles (not to be confused with the existing Style—another string field) or, if you really like the word genre, Genres. A list field may have any number of different values, including nested values (e.g., Genre\Sub-genre\Style). MC supports ordered lists—so you could list styles (or whatever you want to call them) in order of importance or applicability.
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: robbbby on December 16, 2010, 05:42:30 pm
awesome, great to know it's possible.

I take it this is something that can only be done in MC?  Also are these lists/strings/classes stored in some sort of data file that is specific to MC15?  I guess what i'm trying to figure out is that these entires I make will not be readable by other programs, it is not something like a id3tag, correct?

I'm going to do a bit of reading on the stuff you mentioned and see if I can figure it out, sounds complicated but i'm sure it's fairly straight forward.

Also the "tag" function in MC15, is that simply editing the id3tag?  is there a easier way to edit the tags in MC ebsides just doing it in the little box on the bottom left corner once you select tag?


Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: rick.ca on December 16, 2010, 07:04:02 pm
All data you see in MC is recorded in MC's database, or "library." Data is read from and written to the file tags according to ID3 standards and your configuration settings. I don't believe non-standard genre and style data (e.g., that might be stored in Genres and/or Styles custom list fields) will be saved in the file tags. If you click on the very first line of the tag window (the link showing [File type] - [Duration] - [File Size]), the window will display what's saved in the tags. If you're concerned about portability, this may be reason enough to continue using the standard single value Genre and Style fields. You can still record multiple value in them, separating the values with semicolons. Then configure Genres and Styles in MC as "expression fields" that convert those into lists.

MC has excellent editing features. In addition to the tag window, you can edit directly in the grid of any list view. In a Panes View, you can assign values by checking boxes or adding new values directly in the selection panes. With any method, edits apply to any number of selected files. Values are not restricted to constants, but can be any expression created with the powerful expression language.

Take your time reading. In a year from now, you'll still be asking if there's anything MC can't do. ;D
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: glynor on December 16, 2010, 07:22:36 pm
When I need to tag files with list-type data, I typically just use the pre-defined [Keywords] field, which works like you want, and is read by many other applications.
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: rick.ca on December 17, 2010, 12:26:42 am
Good point. People is another standard list field which is saved in ID3 tags. Some would have their own tags, but if you want to record all musicians or all "credits," that would be the one to use. Here's (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=60749.msg410138#msg410138) an illustration.
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: Vectra on January 02, 2011, 02:21:00 pm
I would like to see more detailed instruction on how to read the multiple values I typed into STYLE tag I created in v12 and have a sub-genres tag created with multiple values as a list....below is what has already been suggested.

"..continue using the standard single value Genre and Style fields. You can still record multiple value in them, separating the values with semicolons. Then configure Genres and Styles in MC as "expression fields" that convert those into lists."

This seems to be the guide reference:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php?title=Media_Center_expression_language

Do I create a new custom tag "sub-genre" as an expression using listbuild(1,;[STYLE])&datatype=
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: rick.ca on January 02, 2011, 08:01:41 pm
If [Style] data is already in the form of a semicolon-delimited list, you don't need to use ListBuild(). Just use the expression [Style]&datatype=[list]. You'll find it more convenient (and perhaps necessary) to use that in a custom expression field. Create a list-type field named [Styles] using that expression, then use it instead of [Style] in your views.

You might want to consider recording styles as a nested list—as illustrated in the screen shot. Prior to doing this, I used a single-value Style to further categorize Genres like "Rock" and "Classical." In my Panes View, I've combined these into a nested "Genre - Style" pane using the expression ListBuild(1,\,[Genre],[Style])&datatype=[list]. [Edit: Unnecessarily complicated; [Genre]\[Style]&datatype=[list] works fine.] While I find this useful, my Styles are my own arbitrary values (e.g., there's only 11 for Rock) and a long way from the many different and multiples style values that might be assigned to any particular song, album or artist's work. So I recorded the multiple styles Allmovie uses in [Keywords] and nested them in manner similar to how Allmovie does it. It's not exactly the same, as I didn't want one sub-style in more than one style, or a style in more than one genre—which Allmovie does quite liberally. Now I can make selections using my own Genre\Style classification and/or by selecting one or more Allmovie styles.
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: dbdog on January 25, 2011, 08:14:05 pm
Kinda the discussion I was looking for...

I've migrated over from another program recently (therefore a noob) and it allowed for multiple genres to be separated by a semicolon. So if you tag something "Alt Rock; Indie" it will list it in both categories and there will be no separate category called "Alt Rock; Indie". That's my problem - now I've got a library full of genres with multiple values and MC lists them all as separate entities so now I've got 260 genres. Sheesh. What a mess!

Before I blow them all away and reduce them to one genre each, can anyone think of a solution that would allow some expression or something in the genre column that would mimic the way another program handles multiples?

Thanks
dbdog


*****edit****** nevermind: found a solution here. Thanks gappie!!!! http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=57477.0
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: sunfire7 on January 26, 2011, 12:46:51 pm
should be a sticky topic about multiple genres options, this questions pops up a lot by new users  :)
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: Crayola Boy on January 26, 2011, 11:39:57 pm
I have an interesting problem. I have a field named [Sub-Genre] and have tried using the listbuild function for the first time. The [Sub-Genre] is a list (semicolon delimited) field. My expression is listbuild(1,\,[Genre],[sub-genre])&datatype=[li st] but it doesn't seem to be working properly.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5136/5392352910_8b0029a0ce.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/solisphotography/5392352910/)

Not all of my Sub-Genres are nesting into my Genres. What have I done wrong? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: rick.ca on January 27, 2011, 01:03:42 am
Quote
...it doesn't seem to be working properly.

You can't use ListBuild to combine a string field and a list field and get the result you expect (the list values grouped by Genre). I'm not sure how that might be done with an expression. If had to do it myself, I think I'd just edit each value of [sub-genre] directly in a pane (so the change applies to all files) to [Genre]\[sub-genre].

Think about the result you want however. I prefer to classify by Genre and Style—where both are single-value string fields. I then combine them using [Genre]\[Style]&datatype=[list]. As a completely separate matter, I save AMG Styles (multiple values per artist) as a nested list ("Keywords" in my screen shot above). I'm not suggesting you should do the same, but this is similar to your [sub-genre]. I find it more versatile to use [Genre]\[Style] and [Keywords] separately.
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: Crayola Boy on January 27, 2011, 12:36:29 pm
Thanks, I'll give that a shot
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: Crayola Boy on January 28, 2011, 01:18:59 am
Your way of organizing music is pretty much what I've been looking for. I gotta be honest though, the expressions wiki page has me completely stumped. Do you think you could give me an in-depth tutorial on your panes/expressions/keyword style of tagging. I know it's asking a lot, so no worries if it's too much trouble. Thanks.
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: rick.ca on January 28, 2011, 07:17:43 pm
Quote
Do you think you could give me an in-depth tutorial on your panes/expressions/keyword style of tagging.

That is a bit much, but mainly because I doubt you really want do exactly what I do. It's so much a matter of personal preference. At the same time, I don't think the manner in which I'm configuring my music view is particularly complicated. So maybe if we take it one step at a time...

First, it's difficult to comment on how data might be managed without understanding it's nature, where it comes from, how it's to be used and maintained. Please describe how you're currently using your [Genre] and [Sub-genre] fields.


Are you really prepared to classify all your music according to a single value Style—as I have? There's no source for this, and if the styles used are to be restricted to a manageable number, the classification will be necessarily arbitrary. In other words, most of your artists will fit in more than one style, but they'll be assigned to only one. To illustrate: I defined 11 Rock "styles" and assigned each Rock artist to one style. I use Allmusic styles as a reference in deciding (if I don't already know) which of my style categories a new artist best fits in. The important thing is, this is purely personal. There's no right answer. The object of the exercise is to create a sub-classification in your own mind—so you can better relate to a genre (like "Rock" or "Classical") that is very broad. I have a sense of what I've classified as "Arena Rock." It's probably quite different than what you or anyone else would come up with.

As for viewing the data, maybe screen shots will illustrate nested categories are not as complicated as they may seem. All I've done is combine categories I would otherwise need panes for (first shot) into nested categories to save space (second shot). Note use of the ListBuild function—as I previously suggested—works, but isn't necessary for simply nesting categories. Sorry if that created confusion. So (now) I use these nested category panes...

    Pane     Expression
    Genre\Style     [Genre]\[Style]&datatype=[list]
    Artist\Album     [Album Artist (auto)]\[Released] [Album]&datatype=[list]
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: Crayola Boy on January 28, 2011, 11:32:18 pm
Quote from: rick.ca on January 28, 2011, 07:17:43 pm
First, it's difficult to comment on how data might be managed without understanding it's nature, where it comes from, how it's to be used and maintained. Please describe how you're currently using your [Genre] and [Sub-genre] fields.

I don't really use them at all other than having the Genre field filled. I've just been toying with the idea of adding to my tags (I'm very OCD about having things organized). I made a different library with a few albums on it for a small-scale test.

I also just figured out that a) ListBuild isn't needed for nested styles and b) when you (or someone else) said they used [genre]\[style] for keywording it wasn't an expression, it was a path.

Right now I'm tagging things by hand, which is why I'm using the small-scale test. I want to make sure I have things the way I want before I go full-scale. I'm mainly looking for how my fellow OCDers tag things so I can copy that and adapt it.

I also have fields that allow me to tag the RS500 albums and RS2010TOP30 along with separate library views for each.

Thanks for all the help. I know I really need to dive into that expressions wiki, but it is daunting and doesn't seem to be written with non-coders in mind. Maybe on my next sick day ...
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: Crayola Boy on January 28, 2011, 11:48:10 pm
And yes, I use AllMusic as a guide for my tagging. The thing that prompted this is that I felt I had too many genres. I wanted to consolidate genres like Pop, Alternative and Rock into the more universal Pop/Rock and still use smartlists to create and Alternative-only playlist, or a Pop-only playlist, etc.

Part of my testing also utilizes the Moods and Themes field from AllMusic. The thought being I can take all the tagged info (genre, style, mood, theme, intensity, BPM, rating) and create playlists for things like snowboarding, driving, dinner party, etc. Like I said before, I'm a bit on the OCD side with it comes to organizing my digital life.

For example, I also have a Live field since I have a lot of live albums. I classify each live album with either "Official" or "Bootleg." This allows me to prevent poor-quality bootleg recordings from entering some of my playlists.

Always looking for how others classify music. If it works for one person, it may work for others (maybe I should start a new topic for this).
Title: Re: Tagging music - multiple genres
Post by: vagskal on January 29, 2011, 03:26:15 am
Quote from: Crayola Boy on January 28, 2011, 11:48:10 pm
Always looking for how others classify music. If it works for one person, it may work for others (maybe I should start a new topic for this).

I too use the genre, style, theme and mood fields from AMG. AMG changed the setup a while ago and then I adapted my tags. If an album is not in AMG or does not have all fields I just set the genre field manually according th the AMG scheme.

The genre field is a multiple value list type field where I store also other information, namely: Compilation, Live, Bootleg, Single, EP, Soundtrack, Whole Album (usually an lp rip where the album contains only 1 or 2 long files with multiple songs), Swedish, Bonus Track. Only the values Swedish and Bonus Track are assigned on a per song basis and the rest are assigned the same value to a whole album, or, in the case of Live, to a whole disc of an album. For live songs on a non Live genre album I append [Live] to the song name.

The reason for using the genre field for this and not some kind of Type MC field is that the genre field is easier to handle for Squeezebox Server.