INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 17 => Topic started by: gtener on October 26, 2011, 04:58:18 pm
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So far I really don't see anything new in MC17 for audiophiles. The movement seems to be to bloat MC17 with HTPC everything. Please don't make this a "Lightroom" alternative, a movie editing program, or a "garage band" alternative. Trying to be all things to all desires may make audiophiles look elsewhere. J River Media Center is the best playback software I have found so far and I hope audio playback remains a priority of the writers.
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DSD playback is an audiophile feature if you have the right equipment.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=67190.0
Speed improvements also affect all users.
And development of MC17 has just begun.
What's missing for you?
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As long as you don't change, remove or make access more difficult to the existing audiophile features, I don't see anything wrong with adding support for any 'HTPC' features at all. So far, it's great. Thanks!
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So far I really don't see anything new in MC17 for audiophiles. The movement seems to be to bloat MC17 with HTPC everything. Please don't make this a "Lightroom" alternative, a movie editing program, or a "garage band" alternative. Trying to be all things to all desires may make audiophiles look elsewhere. J River Media Center is the best playback software I have found so far and I hope audio playback remains a priority of the writers.
Options->General->Features
Disable those that you do not use.
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I've been an Audiophool for many years. Loved it when I could store all our music on computer and get outstanding playback quality and the quick easy access to all our music. Since my wife and I love movies that led to putting our movies on the computer and growing to a 5.1 HT system, still with high quality audio. JRiver does this the best. And it just keeps getting better.
Audiophile desires and HT can coexist very well. In fact they are a great complement when you use Media Center! Thanks JRiver.
Rod
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So far I really don't see anything new in MC17 for audiophiles. The movement seems to be to bloat MC17 with HTPC everything. Please don't make this a "Lightroom" alternative, a movie editing program, or a "garage band" alternative. Trying to be all things to all desires may make audiophiles look elsewhere. J River Media Center is the best playback software I have found so far and I hope audio playback remains a priority of the writers.
Some of us do buy MC for the HTPC features :)
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As long as you don't change, remove or make access more difficult to the existing audiophile features, I don't see anything wrong with adding support for any 'HTPC' features at all. So far, it's great. Thanks!
I agree. However, how about showing us audiophiles some love with some improvements. As the OP said are there any enhancements in 17 for audio other than DSD?
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I agree. However, how about showing us audiophiles some love with some improvements. As the OP said are there any enhancements in 17 for audio other than DSD?
Well, during a development cycle for each version, a huge number of features are introduced. Compare MC16's first builds with 181 and you'll see what I mean. Many features and improvements come as a result of user suggestions, bug fixes etc., and many of these are probably not part of the official agenda when the version is introduced. So I would say that there may be no reason for you to upgrade right now, and that's fair enough, but it really is early days to rule out MC17 as a whole - or ask "what have you done for me lately?"
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I agree. However, how about showing us audiophiles some love with some improvements. As the OP said are there any enhancements in 17 for audio other than DSD?
I certainly don't speak for JRiver but I do know that in the last couple of versions they had a lot of major focus on audio and made tremendous improvements. Many of us were crying for improvements to Video and TV. They have done wonderful things with video and are now putting a lot of energy into TV. I think it's amazing what they have accomplished and how responsive they try to be for a small company.
I hope you enjoy the best audio player out there as much as I do.
rod
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I agree. However, how about showing us audiophiles some love with some improvements. As the OP said are there any enhancements in 17 for audio other than DSD?
I would recommend suggesting some features. The developers may not be aware of the desires of the audiophile community.
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I certainly don't speak for JRiver but I do know that in the last couple of versions they had a lot of major focus on audio and made tremendous improvements. Many of us were crying for improvements to Video and TV. They have done wonderful things with video and are now putting a lot of energy into TV. I think it's amazing what they have accomplished and how responsive they try to be for a small company.
I hope you enjoy the best audio player out there as much as I do.
rod
@Rod
You said
"I do know that in the last couple of versions they had a lot of major focus on audio and made tremendous improvements."
Can you be so kind and give my a list of the tremendous improvements when it comes to audio as you say?
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Can you be so kind and give my a list of the tremendous improvements when it comes to audio as you say?
Alex B keeps a log which you can find in his signature. Here's the one for MC16:
http://mc-changelog.blogspot.com/
and here's a partial list of new features in MC16:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=62033.0
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Sorry in advance for sounding like a moron, can someone point me to somewhere that has a good explanation of DSD. I don't understand this format. I use Wasapi with my PC and a hiface to my DAC.
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@Rod
You said
"I do know that in the last couple of versions they had a lot of major focus on audio and made tremendous improvements."
Can you be so kind and give my a list of the tremendous improvements when it comes to audio as you say?
Hopefully Jim answered your question.
Rod
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Sorry in advance for sounding like a moron, can someone point me to somewhere that has a good explanation of DSD. I don't understand this format. I use Wasapi with my PC and a hiface to my DAC.
DSD is the format of Super Audio CD's.
More on our Wiki (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format).
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Alex B keeps a log which you can find in his signature. Here's the one for MC16:
http://mc-changelog.blogspot.com/
and here's a partial list of new features in MC16:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=62033.0
Thanks for the list Jim. However, your list just confirms where the focus really is. That's not a bad thing - don't get me wrong. it's just very hard to pick out some "tremendous improvements" when it comes to audio. That's all I'm saying.
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Thanks for the list Jim. However, your list just confirms where the focus really is.
The focus shifts from time to time. TV is a high priority right now.
If you have features you think are important, you could add them to the feature request thread here.
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Thanks for the list Jim. However, your list just confirms where the focus really is. That's not a bad thing - don't get me wrong. it's just very hard to pick out some "tremendous improvements" when it comes to audio. That's all I'm saying.
When I said tremendous improvements I meant the sum of all the audio improvements over the last couple of versions: not any individual ones. but I guess their progress can be looked at many ways depending upon the looker.
To me the important thing right now is how great of a program it is for audio - at least I sure think it is.
Rod
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When I said tremendous improvements I meant the sum of all the audio improvements over the last couple of versions: not any individual ones. but I guess their progress can be looked at many ways depending upon the looker.
To me the important thing right now is how great of a program it is for audio - at least I sure think it is.
Rod
Rod,
I with you 100% It is a great program - that's for sure. And as we can see, it's only getting better.
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Rod,
I with you 100% It is a great program - that's for sure. And as we can see, it's only getting better.
Thanks. And I agree with you.
Rod
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Options->General->Features
Disable those that you do not use.
Is there a way to disable/hide the Performer Store?
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Thanks for the list Jim. However, your list just confirms where the focus really is. That's not a bad thing - don't get me wrong. it's just very hard to pick out some "tremendous improvements" when it comes to audio. That's all I'm saying.
What improvements are really needed when it comes to audio-quality? The only thing I can think of is a bit better documented filters (its nice to know something about how stuff works, you don't need the algorithms them selfs).
Personally i really like the direction of MC to be a program that is more able to handle my total HTPC-needs.
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Is there a way to disable/hide the Performer Store?
Tools > Plug-in Manager > Store > Performer Media Center
There you have two buttons. "Hide" means disabled. Out of sight and out of use.
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Thank you!! :-*
I always click the performer store in the left sidebar by accident, which for some reason crashes MC.
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So far I really don't see anything new in MC17 for audiophiles. The movement seems to be to bloat MC17 with HTPC everything. Please don't make this a "Lightroom" alternative, a movie editing program, or a "garage band" alternative. Trying to be all things to all desires may make audiophiles look elsewhere. J River Media Center is the best playback software I have found so far and I hope audio playback remains a priority of the writers.
There were a lot of improvements for you in version 16 (and 15). I'm not saying that Audio features are not welcome, but it's not correct to say that this version does not have anything new to offer you, and everything else is just bloating MC. It's actually stuff other users love, and they can coexist.
Audio has always been THE strongest side in this product. I think it's about time that other areas also get some focus.
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...it's not correct to say that this version does not have anything new to offer you, and everything else is just bloating MC. It's actually stuff other users love, and they can coexist
I believe the issue here is that it's part of the audiophile paranoia that anything not aimed fairly and squarely at sound quality is considered "bloat" by audiophile definition.
It's interesting to note the growing level of interest in stripped-back audio-only players, so stripped back in some cases that the basic functionality of the computer is compromised. Many users of such programs will swear blind that the audio quality from such software is somehow better. Personally, I believe that to be nonsense.
But you might just be doing yourself a big favour with an option within MC17 to disable all non-audio features, and not loading any modules that do not contribute to audio. Doing this will enhance your reputation within the audio-only community. It may not make sense to the developers but trust me....
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... you might just be doing yourself a big favour with an option within MC17 to disable all non-audio features, and not loading any modules that do not contribute to audio. Doing this will enhance your reputation within the audio-only community. It may not make sense to the developers but trust me....
It's mostly there now. Tools/Options/General/Features.
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It's mostly there now. Tools/Options/General/Features.
I'm not sure it's sufficient for those for whom minimalism is an absolute requirement.
Does the option you mention actually stop those various modules from loading?
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I believe the issue here is that it's part of the audiophile paranoia that anything not aimed fairly and squarely at sound quality is considered "bloat" by audiophile definition.
It's interesting to note the growing level of interest in stripped-back audio-only players, so stripped back in some cases that the basic functionality of the computer is compromised. Many users of such programs will swear blind that the audio quality from such software is somehow better. Personally, I believe that to be nonsense.
But you might just be doing yourself a big favour with an option within MC17 to disable all non-audio features, and not loading any modules that do not contribute to audio. Doing this will enhance your reputation within the audio-only community. It may not make sense to the developers but trust me....
How far should the developers go to make features with no significance on sound-quality, just because the are requested by audiophiles?
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My apologies for the inflammatory remarks towards those who want a total HTPC experience. J River is doing an excellent job of delivering this. As a 2 channel only audio person I am extremely happy with MC. I have stripped it back to pretty much audio only and it does this as well or better than all the other players I have tried. My comments were directed at MC 17 as I wondered out loud why I would upgrade at this point when I already have excellent sound. My comments also related to some of the forum comments that requested photo editing capabilities, like "Lightroom", and I worried that the program would lose its focus.
So, to JimH, I don't know what more I want. The program is already delivering outstanding, bit-perfect, playback. Thank you for this. If new developments bring better audio results I will of course upgrade.
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How far should the developers go to make features with no significance on sound-quality, just because the are requested by audiophiles?
And I believe the target audience is tiny & very finicky. There are already a few programs that do this and nobody is ever fully pleased with them.
Rod
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And I believe the target audience is tiny & very finicky.
It's not a small market. It is currently about 25% of our sales. And, like video, it's a market where MC has a first class reputation.
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How far should the developers go to make features with no significance on sound-quality, just because the are requested by audiophiles?
Just because you don't value music as much as others do does not make them misguided. I love my music and would like to see improvements in that area as well. I requested this from JR http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=67304.0 There are obviously difference of opinions. In fact there are other web based communities that take the above request very seriously also there are other players that offer that type of option because they feel it does the music a good justice and they have there reasoning for it.
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It's not a small market. It is about 25% of our sales. And, like video, it's a market where we have a first class reputation.
Jim - I was responding to Elvis 133s comment. I meant the portion of the audiophile market that wants a totally stripped down system. Where the only thing the whole computer is used for is audio and as one poster said the machine hardly runs.
I started using MC a few years ago for its audio quality. I believe it has grown to be by far the best audio player out there. I don't at all mean to diminish what you have done and the size of the full audio market.
Rod
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I removed a couple of slings and arrows above.
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I requested this from JR http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=67304.0 There are obviously difference of opinions. In fact there are other web based communities that take the above request very seriously...
I answered in that thread when you posted. We are extremely interested in anything that will improve audio quality, but I hope you will understand that we must trust our own experience in this area. We don't do work that we believe will be ineffective.
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It's not a small market. It is currently about 25% of our sales. And, like video, it's a market where MC has a first class reputation.
Which is why, were I marketing the software, I would have the developers create an option for a minimal audio-only configuration. Not that this is necessary at any technical level, but there is a real driving force in certain audiophile circles that favours minimalist, stripped-down software.
The audiophile market is frequently driven by the most inane, rumour-fuelled BS but if JRiver wants to retain its reputation in that market segment, MC will gather a reputation for bloat which will not enhance sales within that sector. I suspect the necessary work on the software would require very little effort for a potentially significant reward.
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Just because you don't value music as much as others do does not make them misguided. I love my music and would like to see improvements in that area as well. I requested this from JR http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=67304.0 There are obviously difference of opinions. In fact there are other web based communities that take the above request very seriously also there are other players that offer that type of option because they feel it does the music a good justice and they have there reasoning for it.
I value music very high. However, i also know that the audiophile community is full of statements that are factually wrong. A lot of false statements about what makes a difference in audio quality. Since the opinions are not fact-based, its difficult to know when they will change, and frankly, I find all the weird claims to be something that causes worse quality in audio as a whole, more than better. Audio is a science, I don't like people treating it like voodoo.
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I find all the weird claims to be something that causes worse quality in audio as a whole, more than better.
Weird claims? Like FLAC opposed to MP3 or this DAC rather than that DAC. Or maybe Asynchronous USB over Adaptive USB? These are not weird claims, these are tried and true observations that have become fact - and there are many others.
All the OP and myself was asking was to give the audio portion of the program some LOVE as well. Jim already made it clear that MC changes it focus from time to time. The focus will shift back to the audio side in due time.
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The focus will shift back to the audio side in due time.
Which begs the question "what would you have the developers actually do?" I doubt there is any way the actual playback quality could be improved - it's demonstrably as good as it can get. You cannot improve on bit-perfect. Anything more is down to the audio hardware, over which the developers have no control.
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Weird claims? Like FLAC opposed to MP3 or this DAC rather than that DAC. Or maybe Asynchronous USB over Adaptive USB? These are not weird claims, these are tried and true observations that have become fact - and there are many others.
All the OP and myself was asking was to give the audio portion of the program some LOVE as well. Jim already made it clear that MC changes it focus from time to time. The focus will shift back to the audio side in due time.
Differences between FLAC and mp3 and different DACs are exaggerated greatly by many, but there is a difference between the former two, and it might be a difference between the latter two in some circumstances. However I am talking about claims like very expensive speaker cables are needed, a very expensive CD-player is needed, digital cables make a difference, and so on.Not to mentioned the more exotic claims like volume knobs that alter the sound, cable-holders and all kinds of weird stuff. There is nothing wrong about focusing on audio, but IMHO focusing on claims without any kind of backing from listening tests or science is wrong, it makes audio less about science which in turn makes companies make worse products, since they are not judged on what matters, sound quality. Instead random subjective evaluations are done, and the net result is worse quality. I love music and sound, that is why I am so passionate about this.
But as pluto has pointed out, what can be done to improve audio? IMHO, better filtering, and algorithms is the main point where improvement is possible, and also possibly a bit better documentation of some features-
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The original post was never intended to cause a debate about audio playback, cables vs cables, mp3 vs wav, or any other audio related science or science fiction. It was simply cautionary towards a road that could lead to a perception of J River becoming bloated and turning off some 2 channel audiophiles. It seems that some people on this forum will take any opportunity to "grind a very old axe."
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The original post was never intended to cause a debate about audio playback, cables vs cables, mp3 vs wav, or any other audio related science or science fiction. It was simply cautionary towards a road that could lead to a perception of J River becoming bloated and turning off some 2 channel audiophiles. It seems that some people on this forum will take any opportunity to "grind a very old axe."
Maybe I have drifted too far off topic, but I think the points that have been mentioned also are valid in this particular case:
1. Should one try to implement features that are not based on any "real" improvement, only perceived?
2. What are the suggested improvements? Pure unfiltered 2-channel playback hardly seems to have much room for improvement in MC as far as I can tell.
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If you want to apply room correction, a common practice is to measure the response, transform this in a target response and load this in your room correction system
MC does have a parametric equalizer but I don’t see any option to load such a file.
Don’t think I will do 20.000 steps by hand.
So there is room for improvement.
Likewise memory playback.
It is gapped at 256 Mb so a track like Canto Obstinato by Simeon ten Holt simply doesn’t fit in.
Likewise playback starts the moment you press play instead of waiting for the track the be fully loaded.
Probably the track is loaded as is, instead of being converted on the fly to raw PCM first.
The idea about memory playback is to minimize system activity during playback.
So there is room for improvement.
Although I do think there is a difference between talking sense and talking the audiophile talk, if one offers an option like memory playback than go all the way (or leave it out).
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There is room for improvement, but my claim was that there hardly seemed to be much room for improvement on unfiltered 2-channel playback. That doesn't mean that other audio-enhancements are not important, however audiophiles mainly prefer 2-channel unfiltered playback.
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The idea about memory playback is to minimize system activity during playback
Errr...why?
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Discussion on audio driver click split here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=67394.0