INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 20 for Windows => Topic started by: jmone on September 12, 2012, 07:43:14 am
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I've taken a step back with the current frustration about advocating a "DVD Style" menu that lets you access and select the streams you need, but now have come to the conclusion that such a request is still flawed. The issue actually is related to BD in particular so let me explain:
Pre June 2011 (the Dark Ages): I (like all others) that liked MC but wanted BD support only had a couple of options. The first of the threads I created on this was back in 2008 and with 30,000+ views is still in the Top 10 thread on this board. It just detailed how to use DirectShow to play the content from the raw M2TS files (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=44314.0). Expanding on this, a subsequent thread went through the details on how use MC as the library to then drive a Third Party Player (like TMT or PDVD) for the actual playback (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55171.0) and this thread has racked up 7,000+ views in the last few years. While it was not a real integration this did give us full control of the BD disks including Menus.
June 2011 (the Big Leap Forward): MC Introduces BD support http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=64446.0 thanks to the cooperative development with Nevcairiel. This feature has been extremely popular and I see at this point of time MC's forum jumped from a few Hundred new accounts per month to Thosands which I assume resulted in a similar jump in sales! Over the last year we have seen continual improvement for BD support including a native Subtitle support. All great stuff, but there are a couple of bits missing compared to TMT and PDVD... namely Menu Support and Decryption. The decryption part is not an issues thanks to progs like AnyDVD HD, but in this Big Leap Forward we actually lost the benefits provided by the likes of TMT and PDVD for Menu Support in presenting the streams as mastered by BD (eg easy identification and selection of Titles, Alternative Endings, Subtitles, Lang etc). We do have the ability to select them but we don't know what each does as MC is not able to extract this information from the BD BD-J or HDMV menu code but relies of directly accessing the content.
Current State: BD's support two types of Menus, the most widely used is BD-J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J) and the simpler but less used HDMV (similar to how DVD do it). Appart from players like TMT and PDVD, there are several efforts underway based on libbluray to allow BD Menu support including XBMC (http://xbmc.org/natethomas/2012/06/05/xbmc-11-0-may-cycle/) and VLC. Interestingly, Slysoft has created SpeedMenu (http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=52192) which parses BD-J menus and presents them as HDMV menus so players get a simple access to the main features for Title and Stream selection without needing Java support. This means XMBC has already has the potential to present a content aware BD Menu for a BD Disc. Slysoft has also been working on "SlyPlayer" which is due out on "Tuesday" (code for no idea when) that will include Menu support.
Feature Request: This could be a big dev effort (but I have no idea)... but... (similar to what JR did with Subtitles), is there any appetite to add real BD Menu Support, either full BD-J or like Slysoft has done with AnyDVD HD, a parser that just extracts the required info to then present a much simpler but content aware HDMV style menu.
I'm sure Nevcairiel will have a far better idea of what can be done than I.
Thanks
Nathan
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I am working on something to make this happen, but a stable and complete solution won't happen in MC18's lifetime (also, progress has been slow, got side tracked a lot).
Once its somewhat working, MC will need to add support for it of course, mostly for forwarding key presses to menus and possibly also for proper display of menu overlays.
PS:
AnyDVD "SpeedMenus" are rather crappy. They don't "parse" the BD-J, they do something similar to what LAV Splitter or MC do, and simply parse the playlists and show a completely custom menu where you can just select the titles, listed with their title id and their length, pretty similar to how MCs title selector works/looks. I see no advantage to their weird menus over a popup display like the MC title selector.
Software like VLC and XBMC have it much easier to support something like this, because they have full control over everything. In DirectShow, its probably possible to pull it off if i simply limit myself to LAV decoders and simply don't bother with any others - which tbh is the way i'm currently going, can be improved upon for other decoders later on.
PPS:
The fact that i'm actively working on a BD Navigator is not something that should be spread out to the world, i would rather work in peace and quiet until its ready.
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Nevcairiel - Mums the word but I'm really really heartended that you are working on it - as the level of frustration on dealing with the complexity on some BD discs is causing all sorts of heart burn. How can a user know that the Sub Title #17 is the forced subs, or that Title 201 is the Main Feature where 206 is the alternative ending. The only downside seems to be the lead time :( ....
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+1000 for this.
It is clear that the days that we can use TMT/PDVD with anything but original discs in the drive are very limited. PDVD12 already has Cinavia with its latest build.
The forced sub issue is an increasing one, as is the problem of rampant playlists, sometimes genuine, sometimes just there to deceive!
I would happily pay $50 even in advance to get such a capability within a year. I am sure there are many others who would pay the same (some maybe not in advance! :) )
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I'll reiterate my YADB idea. I think most people would like the correct main feature plus the extras named in a menu with the correct subtitle track for forced subs that use a separate stream. In AnyDVD I specify that it remove titles shorter than 10 minutes. This shortens the list from up to 30+ titles to about 5-10. JRiver could add this feature, too.
If I could rename these titles and indicated which is the main feature that would be a great start. If I could upload this list to YADB along with the subtitle info, then the next user could put in the same Blu-ray and get a menu and correct subtitle track.
YADB would also need to know the user's language so it could select the correct subtitle track. If titles are filters so that titles shorter than 10 minutes are removed, then there should be a way to delete titles longer than 10 minutes or add titles shorter than 10 minutes so that the correct extras are included.
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+ for mojave. Similar to what was done with MyMovies - everyone contributed to build a great shared database. Count me in.
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This is certainly the most annoying remaining issue with BD playback - I called it the holy grail a few months back here on the forum. I agree 100% with mojave about the ability to rename titles/streams as first step. Sharing this information would also be a great benefit.
But the ultimate is certainly full BD menu support. I am very glad to hear nevcairiel is planning to do so!
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in nevcairiel we trust
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in nevcairiel we trust
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in nevcairiel we trust
in nevcairiel we trust
For he's a jolly good fellow...
everyone!
For he's a jolly good fellow...
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Guy asks for peace and quiet and people start singing "for he's the jolly good fellow". :)
Still, he is the Nevenator... Ramalama Nev man... Makin the Navigator...
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You guys are weird.
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You guys are weird.
Fhew... you have noticed that too.... and I thought I was the only normal one! :P
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You guys are weird.
See, Nev is the man. Always with his finger on the pulse...
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Got a different example where BD Menus would help. I've not seen this one before but (as usual practice for me), I ripped Supernatural BD Season One as a structure to the HDD, imported, then did an Auto Create Particle to generate an entry for each of the EPS on each disc but for the first time I see there are NO corresponding MPLS. Thankfully each EPS has it's own corresponding M2TS file so for now I'll just copies these off and tag them up as individual files.
The other option would be to create a particle manually but.... too much like hard work though the request to create particles on chapters for BD Music Video may have worked if I could have selected a set of chapters.
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I am working on something to make this happen, but a stable and complete solution won't happen in MC18's lifetime (also, progress has been slow, got side tracked a lot).
Once its somewhat working, MC will need to add support for it of course, mostly for forwarding key presses to menus and possibly also for proper display of menu overlays.
.....
The fact that i'm actively working on a BD Navigator is not something that should be spread out to the world, i would rather work in peace and quiet until its ready.
Any progress the BD Navigator?
Thanks
Nathan
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Just more feedback for Matt. We have had guests stay over the Holidays and both their kids kept hitting the "Menu" button to try to get to the options on BD playback.
FYI : This generated two issues that I'll start a separate thread on Bookmarking and MC losing focus / WMC starting.
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Hey Nevcairiel,
Any details you can share on how this is progressing (even if it is not)?
Thanks
Nathan
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Its not, and it won't for a while, i noticed that i actually don't want menus on my BDs. :p
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Thanks for the update... I'll read between the lines and promise to to hold my breath!
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I actually ripped 99% of my BD collection to my server into MKVs the last few weeks, i just need to do the multi-edition ones like LOTR and Avatar, because i like having the choice between theatrical and extended ;)
But need LAV Splitter to support playing this first. :p
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...because i like having the choice between theatrical and extended
Yup, but occasionally I (or others) may like to also explore the discs to see what other crap content they have included ... and this is not really practical without Menu support. I decided ages ago to rip everthing as an unencrypted structure over a file. It came in handy when we had an exchange student for a few months as we had the ITA subtitles or audio available that I would never have included if I had ripped to MKV.
Anyway, Since you have no use for BD Menus I completely understand that it is unlikely to rise up the list of features but I guess MKV ordered chapter/links (whatever they are called) may :) to get those alt endings :)
Thanks anyway
Nathan.
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If there is no other prospect for improved menus on the horizon I think launching of TMT/PDVD/WinDVD needs to be officially supported from the movie detail screen - "Watch" and "Watch with external player". This would also make it easier to watch 3D versions. Users will also probably insist they have a choice of launching the "full" player or the 10-ft interface/MCE version. Personally I'd want to use the TMT uMCEplayer.
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I can understand having to supoprt the original menu's is complicated, but is it so hard to scan a disks' content and "generate" a menu for it?
I don't care for the original menu's as long as I can pick the extra's.
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Can someone tell me where MC/LAV currently stands WRT playlist obfuscation (many/multiple playlists, some with scrambled scenes). I know that MC will now use the AnyDVD info file for ScreenPass titles, but are there obfuscated titles that are not ScreenPass? If so, does enabling AnyDvD speed menus help finding the right title or not? Basically, with the current methods being employed, can we rely on MC at least picking a "real" movie playlist, even if we are not sure if it is the theatrical/extended/dir.commentary version?!
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I haven't seen any discs with intentional obfuscation besides ScreenPass.
There are quite a bunch of heuristics in MC to try to determine the right track, based on number of audio tracks, chapters, and probably some more.
In my experience, it usually gets it right. It may get in trouble with some of those "maximum movie mode" things, but even then changing the title is like three buttons on my remote (bring up menu, select title - usually only one down, press ok)
SpeedMenus wouldn't help you, because you don't get any information out of them.
People claim that AnyDVD has some real smarts that help always selecting the primary title, but so far those smarts are only used for their speed menus, and people have been requesting to export this information in the disc.inf file for everyone to use. Maybe it'll happen some day soon.
Maybe one day MC will also have menu support, but people shouldn't count on single persons and their hobby projects for solving such big tasks. My time is rare these days, and i have TODOs for LAV a mile long (and i don't need menus, i prefer the movie, ripped to MKV on my NAS or played back directly from disc, but no adverts and trailers please! :p). Working on BD menus is more of a fun project at this point, and may never be finished, but i use it to entertain myself on rainy days.
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Yeah, nev, I am amazed by what you have done for us, all in your free time and appreciate, without expectation, anything you are able to do in future. :)
Edit: and thanks for the info on obfuscation :)
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Yeah, nev, I am amazed by what you have done for us, all in your free time
QFT.
In my opinion, it's hard to overstate how important nevcairiel has been to the world of digital video.
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I could not agree more!
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QFT.
In my opinion, it's hard to overstate how important nevcairiel has been to the world of digital video.
+1000
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I refer to Nev and Madshi as the Windows video kings (or similar superlatives) to my layperson friends. And they are impressed that I am on the same forums as they are. I don't ever reveal that I usually have nothing useful to say on said forums, though. :)
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I don't ever reveal that I usually have nothing useful to say on said forums, though. :)
Now that is simply not true.
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If there is no other prospect for improved menus on the horizon I think launching of TMT/PDVD/WinDVD needs to be officially supported from the movie detail screen - "Watch" and "Watch with external player". This would also make it easier to watch 3D versions. Users will also probably insist they have a choice of launching the "full" player or the 10-ft interface/MCE version. Personally I'd want to use the TMT uMCEplayer.
I agree with Jong. TMT's uMCEplayer version will launch from MC then on Stop or RTN will go back to MC. This will give users the ability to play 3D and have full menus if they so desire. My post on adding a BD 3D file type is also easy to implement and would give the option of selectivly launch 3D BD with TMT --> http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77211.0
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Some hope?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1618550#post1618550
Rudimentary BD-J menu support?
SBR
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There is always hope esp as Nevcairiel has been watching that thread!
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Eh the developer that wrote that left quite a while ago and the guy now working on it doesnt have much of a clue what he is doing, but just keeps updating the bluray library below it.
Currently, it only works in this demo application, and puts severe restrictions on the playback chain, not to mention all the technical issues i won't even go into. =p
This project basically died before it ever lived, the original dev left, and some beginner is trying to pick up the pieces, but without real structure its going downhill fast.
My own interest is limited to the factor of entertaining myself by working on my own solution whenever i feel like it, and not necessarily finishing some half-assed solution like that just to get to see trailers and ads. :p
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in nevcairiel we trust
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I see you posted in the thread again, though I take it nothing has really changed in the dev efforts behind libbluray. How is your "own solution" going (if at all)?
Thanks
Nathan
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Hey nevcairiel - I see that dslibbluray is still bubbling. Any updates on your thoughts if this (or your own) is reaching the a level of maturity that is worth looking at?
Thanks
Nathan
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Like i mentioned before, dslibbluray has no real developer, the original developer vanished after a while and some other guy has been trying to keep it updated for the latest libbluray versions. Personally, i don't trust a project that lost its sole developer before it was even close to finished, with someone much less experienced trying to pick up the pieces.
Also, it has a horrible name. :)
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Thanks - just checking in....
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Hi Hendrik, has anything changed with dslibbluray.... Still a mess?
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Blu-ray has been a mess since day one :(. I'm pretty confident DVDs will be readable for decades to come. Even if drives are no longer commonly available, dvd .isos will be easily playable. But blu-rays will be coasters in a few short years - all PC software to read them in full will be dead, you will need to find an antiquated Blu-ray player to watch them as intended.
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? almost all new PC ship with a BD/DVD/CD not a DVD/CD drive - I think I'm safe for many years to come. That said I have kept spare HD-DVD compatible drive for some odd reason! ;D
The reason for the re-bump of such an old thread is the same original reason. Movies are fine in MC, but BD Disks with multiple TV Eps / Music Videos / even Alternative Endings or "Extras" require you to post-process the BD titles to set them up correctly in MC as there is no menu to be able to identify the content. I'm fine with this but the Family would have zero ability to buy the Box Set of Game of Thrones and play the eps in order.
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Yeah, just ranting really! But PCs shipped with floppy drives for years - now try reading them. My point, such as there was one, is you can back DVDs up to .iso and be sure they will be readable for a LONG long time, even when everything is in the cloud and no physical drives are installed in PCs. Blu-ray, not so much!
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You know that you can rip BD's to ISO or just copy the structure to the HDD just like a DVD or CD? I have 500+ BD all on my 35TB drive pool.
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Of course, but for just the reasons discussed in this thread, those structures are unlikely to viewable as intended in decades to come. All the full software players will eventually break - due to windows changes if nothing else. You will be able to extract the various streams, but it won't give you the original experience.
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And what makes you think that DVD will be any different? Rumor is that Windows 10 will no longer include the DVD Navigator, which would put an end to DVD playback in the majority of players you see today. :P
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Oh now you're just depressing me! Good point!
But, rightly or wrongly, I think DVD is well understood enough, cracked enough, simple enough and used enough that a solution will be found. Blu-ray is such a can of DRM-infested worms. Added to that, no one really got into "extras" on Blu-ray the way they did with DVD. So, somehow, maybe I'll be proved wrong, I think DVD will remain playable way after blu-ray. We'll see!
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to close this now. Discussion of cracks is probably not a good topic here.