INTERACT FORUM
Networks and Remotes => Media Network => Topic started by: haggis999 on April 01, 2013, 05:40:10 pm
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I have not yet decided what equipment to buy for playing my computer-based music, except that I am looking for an audiophile solution and expect to storing my FLAC files on a NAS box. During a demo last week of a Naim NDX Network Player in a local hi-fi store, I was able to use MC18 to 'push' music stored on my laptop to the NDX (which has DLNA rendering capability).
However, this was fairly late in the demo and I did not get much time to get familiar with the MC18 interface for this purpose and have no way of checking this at home. Before I could get the NDX to play anything, I had to do something in MC18 like 'copying' the library to the NDX. Probably due to my inexperience, I hit some problems with MC18's 'Playing now' status not matching that on the NDX. It was also not fully obvious how to quickly switch from one track to another. I'm guessing that I may have been looking at a main library view rather than a view associated with the version 'copied' to the NDX.
I would be grateful if someone would give me a brief overview of the correct procedure in these circumstances so that on my next visit to this or any other hi-fi dealer I am better prepared to test the use of MC18 as a player interface.
David
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I think it is the job of your renderer or control point to grab FROM the server. Though you should be able to set up the NDX as a Zone and simply play to it.
-Patrick
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My understanding is that MC18 can carry out the functions of a DLNA media server, renderer and controller. When I had the Naim NDX demo, I could use the Naim nStream app on an iPad to 'pull' the music files from MC18 (in its role as a media server) but I could also, in a rather erratic fashion, 'push' music to the NDX from MC18 (in its role as a media controller).
David
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The device needs to be able to accept a push from a DLNA controller. Then at least its a candidate to work. But you really have to test it out to see how it works in various situations. DLNA is finicky and apparently almost randomly implemented in various devices.
Best bet is to become familiar with configuring MC and another client for push, so that you can be confident in testing out the prospective device's capabilities.
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Best bet is to become familiar with configuring MC and another client for push, so that you can be confident in testing out the prospective device's capabilities.
My problem is that I don't have a DLNA renderer client of my own to play with.
David
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You do - its Windows Media Player.
Enable Streaming - use the Stream pulldown menu, anad Allow remote control of my Player... and you'll see it as a zone in MC. Use MC's Send To, or make the zone the current zone, to initiate playback.
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You do - its Windows Media Player.
Enable Streaming - use the Stream pulldown menu, anad Allow remote control of my Player... and you'll see it as a zone in MC. Use MC's Send To, or make the zone the current zone, to initiate playback.
I've selected 'Allow remote control of my player' on Windows Media Player on both my main desktop PC and my laptop (both of which are running Windows 7 and are in my Homegroup). I now get the following two extra entries in MC18's Playing Now list (I've modified the machine names for clarity), though there is sometimes a delay before they appear:
- David (LAPTOP : Windows Media Player)
- David (DESKTOP : Windows Media Player)
I guess these are what you are calling 'zones'.
However, if I select a track in the main library of MC18, right mouse click, and then select Send To > Play (David (DESKTOP : Windows Media Player) I get the error message "There was a problem controlling the selected DLNA device. Double-check your device, server, and network settings."
If I do the same thing but select Play (LAPTOP : Windows Media Player), then this error does not appear. However, neither is there any sound from my laptop, where WMP seems constantly busy with occasional flashes of 'reading media' (or something similar) appearing in the bottom left corner. Meantime, MC18 is slowly stepping through each track of the selected album and attempting to play short extracts from each of them.
None of this misbehaviour is modified by selecting either or both of the DLNA Controller Options, i.e. 'Ignore Transport Events' or 'Disable SetNext Support'. Where do I go from here?
David
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There can be a problem with UPnP in achieving gapless playback. If this is important to you, as it may well be if you listen to classical music, especially opera, or live recordings, it would be worth checking that MC18 can deliver gapless playback to your chosen hardware using your chosen control point. Linn have their own extension to DLNA to achieve gapless playback with their boxes and control point, and I think Naim have their own solution to the problem also. If you go with Linn, there is also a piece of software called catwalk that integrates MC and Linn DS and achieves gapless playback.
Bear in mind also that the view a UPnP control point presents of your media from MC18 is different to the view you get when you run MC18. MC lets you define separate views for DLNA devices. Tools > Media Network > Customize Views ... is where to begin. And make sure that there's no downsampling - iirc MC used to downsample by default, not the behaviour you probably want when streaming to Naim level stereo.
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Hi Andy,
Yes, I was caught out by the MC default downsampling setting. It was only at the end of my Naim NDX demo last week that the salesman noticed I was streaming 320kbps MP3 from my FLAC originals! That might explain why I was tending to think that in a comparison with my original CDs, the CDs sounded a little better (contrary to the expectation generated by the salesman). As with so many things in life, the devil is in the detail.
Gapless playback is essential for my requirements but, so far, I am unclear which link in the chain provides this facility. However, the resident guru on the dBpoweramp forum told me that all UPnP media servers supported gapless playback, which implies that either the control point or the renderer is the key component.
I could not find "Tools > Media Network > Customize Views" but eventually worked out that you probably meant "Tools > Options... > Media Network > Add or configure DLNA servers... > Customize views...". However, customizing the view is a purely theoretical activity at the moment, as I have not yet been able to access WMP (my test renderer) from MC.
David
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Gapless playback is essential for my requirements but, so far, I am unclear which link in the chain provides this facility. However, the resident guru on the dBpoweramp forum told me that all UPnP media servers supported gapless playback, which implies that either the control point or the renderer is the key component.
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Correct, the server doesn't have anything to do with the gapless support, it must be supported by the controller AND the renderer.
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Correct, the server doesn't have anything to do with the gapless support, it must be supported by the controller AND the renderer.
Hi Bob,
Is it valid to assume that MC18 supports gapless playback of FLAC files for any renderer?
David
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It supports gapless IF the renderer and controller support it. But note the big IF, and it needs to be tested against any individual component to verify. DLNA really is case-by-case unfortunately.
So far, it seems very few devices support gapless, and bob has worked case-by-case to get it functioning.
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In the situation under discussion, MC18 would be acting as both the media server AND the controller, so I guess it comes down to the ability of the specific renderer to work effectively with MC to achieve gapless playback. I will, of course, be checking this out very carefully before I part with any cash for an expensive new rendering device!
Any ideas on why I can't get MC to work with Windows Media Player?
David
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Let me guess - FLAC files? WMP does not support those, so you'll need to have the Convert unsupported formats enabled. I think there are some plug-ins you can install on your system that allow WMP to playback FLAC.
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Not sure if this helps but you cannot Push music to a Naim streaming product. Naim are very clear about this; the streamer Pulls from the server.
So, if you are using J River on a computer and try and tell it to play on the NDX you will soon encounter problems; only a reboot will restore normal function of the player.
The UPnP server works very well though, so if you wish to play an album just select it from the NDX screen. Smartlists and Playlists work equally well of course; select them from the NDX screen.
You can use Naims n-stream app on an iOS device if you are looking to control your music from the sofa for example, however I don’t use wireless devices and so cannot comment on how well this works. The Naim forum could help with this.
Apologies if you are already aware of this, but it comes as a bit of a surprise to some.
Peter
P.S. All my Opers’s play perfectly (gapless) using Windows MC 18 into NDX
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haggis999 - sorry for the missing steps, glad you worked it out. It's probably stating the obvious, but it might be worth enquiring on the forums of the manufacturers of the network music player you are hoping to use what UPnP servers the community favours, and whether they have experience with MC. Asset UPnP was last years flavour of the month with the Linn-Naim massive for example, but sentiment seems to have shifted towards minimserver; there are MC fans on both iirc. Now that Naim have a USB DAC, there may be more MC users there soon, though as a straight player rather than any UPnP thing.
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Let me guess - FLAC files? WMP does not support those, so you'll need to have the Convert unsupported formats enabled. I think there are some plug-ins you can install on your system that allow WMP to playback FLAC.
I'm not 100% certain about my laptop but WMP on my desktop PC already has the additional codecs installed that permit playing FLAC files. I've also just confirmed that WMP does indeed play such files on this machine.
David
EDIT: WMP on my laptop can also play FLAC files. Incidentally, perhaps I'm going blind but I can't see any 'Convert unsupported formats' option in WMP.
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Not sure if this helps but you cannot Push music to a Naim streaming product. Naim are very clear about this; the streamer Pulls from the server.
So, if you are using J River on a computer and try and tell it to play on the NDX you will soon encounter problems; only a reboot will restore normal function of the player.
The UPnP server works very well though, so if you wish to play an album just select it from the NDX screen. Smartlists and Playlists work equally well of course; select them from the NDX screen.
You can use Naims n-stream app on an iOS device if you are looking to control your music from the sofa for example, however I don’t use wireless devices and so cannot comment on how well this works. The Naim forum could help with this.
Apologies if you are already aware of this, but it comes as a bit of a surprise to some.
Peter
P.S. All my Opers’s play perfectly (gapless) using Windows MC 18 into NDX
Hi Peter,
I'd be interested to know what source you are quoting where Naim is "very clear" about not supporting music 'pushed' from a DLNA controller. My local Naim dealer offered no clear guidance on this point last week.
My interest in computer-based music is driven mainly by the potential ability to get a really slick interface for browsing a large music collection (as long as the sound quality is at least as good as the original CDs). Using the front panel of the NDX does not quite fit that description as far as I am concerned, which is why I am interested in either using MC as my front end, where possible, or using an app like nStream.
David
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...it might be worth enquiring on the forums of the manufacturers of the network music player you are hoping to use what UPnP servers the community favours, and whether they have experience with MC. Asset UPnP was last years flavour of the month with the Linn-Naim massive for example, but sentiment seems to have shifted towards minimserver...
I have already had an email discussion with Naim tech support, which clarified the role played by a UPnP media server in providing the music browsing interface, during which I mentioned my use of MC (which clearly worked as a server for my NDX demo). In passing, the Naim rep recommended Asset UPnP because of its comprehensive ability to edit the browsing tree structure. However, I will take a look at MinimServer (not a product I had heard of before).
David
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MC has superb features for configuring browse trees - I don't think anything else comes close. But the browse trees are static. minimserver has a clever dynamic browsing feature it calls 'intelligent browsing' which let's you browse the tags you're interested in in any order. Doesn't support search though.
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Incidentally, perhaps I'm going blind but I can't see any 'Convert unsupported formats' option in WMP.
This option is in MC, in the DLNA settings. So if the receiving device doesn't accept FLAC (which WMP might not be able to via DLNA even if it can play them locally) MC will convert to another format such as MP3.
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This option is in MC, in the DLNA settings. So if the receiving device doesn't accept FLAC (which WMP might not be able to via DLNA even if it can play them locally) MC will convert to another format such as MP3.
Hi csimon,
Many thanks for that info. You were absolutely right. Clearly the codec fix that enables WMP to play FLAC files locally doesn't extend as far as DLNA support.
That now enables me to get familiar with the MC process for 'pushing' music to those DLNA renderers that support such a method of operation, which is all I wanted from WMP.
David
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Great, glad that worked! The receiving device has to actually publish and declare to the server what it can play so I guess the codec fix doesn't alter that message.
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I have already had an email discussion with Naim tech support, which clarified the role played by a UPnP media server in providing the music browsing interface, during which I mentioned my use of MC (which clearly worked as a server for my NDX demo). In passing, the Naim rep recommended UPnP because of its comprehensive ability to edit the browsing tree structure. However, I will take a look at MinimServer (not a product I had heard of before).
David
David,
You may not be in the market for a Naim streamer. How about the Naim DAC/XPS PSU for similar outlay (and possibly better, if not different, SQ)? Then simply have your PC output digi to the DAC.
I use a VERY quiet mini PC for this at my hifi. It is wired to the router in another room which runs my JRIver server.
Then use the VERY nice JRemote app controlling JRiver at hifi.
If you have a PC in the hifi area you can use JRiver's "Theater View", which combined with JRemote is the best of all worlds.
I go with the "Shared Library" route so I can have my server running 24/7 in the other room with all of the noisy hard drives and fans. The PC at the Hifi is basically silent.
-Patrick
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You may not be in the market for a Naim streamer. How about the Naim DAC/XPS PSU for similar outlay (and possibly better, if not different, SQ)? Then simply have your PC output digi to the DAC.
-Patrick
Hi Patrick,
I'm still so new to this subject that I have not yet fully grasped the distinction between a streamer (or 'network player' in Naim parlance) and a DAC. Please feel free to educate me on this point.
David
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A DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter) is basically an external soundcard, i.e. it works in the same way as the soundcard built-into a PC. The PC decodes the music files and plays them by sending digital audio to the DAC via USB or optical cable which translates it into analogue audio for feeding into an amplifier. If you have an internal soundcard, the analogue audio will be available via sockets on the PC.
A streamer is a standalone device that sits on your network and is not directly attached to a PC. It will receive un-decoded digital music data from another networked device via the DLNA protocol, over the Ethernet network, and decode it and play it. It can have a built-in DAC to provide analogue audio for plugging into an amplifier or it may have digital output for feeding into an external DAC.
DLNA, although it's meant to be a standard, can be hit and miss. It's like a language where the two devices are talking to each other to tell each othe what to do, but whether different devices are speaking the same language is another matter! Therefore it's not guaranteed than any particular DLNA streamer will work perfectly with any given DLNA server. At least with a DAC there is no such language in the middle to get in the way, the PC is effectively controlling the DAC directly.
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A DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter) is basically an external soundcard, i.e. it works in the same way as the soundcard built-into a PC. The PC decodes the music files and plays them by sending digital audio to the DAC via USB or optical cable which translates it into analogue audio for feeding into an amplifier....
Many thanks for that useful explanation. However, I am a bit puzzled by your comments about digital decoding. You say that, if a DAC is being used, the PC "decodes the music files" before sending the data to the DAC whereas a streamer accepts "un-decoded digital music data". I thought that the purpose of any DAC was to do ALL the decoding required to convert music from digital to analogue but you are implying that there is a prior decoding process within the digital domain. Some clarification would be appreciated.
David
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Your music files exist in a variety of formats. FLAC, MP3, WAV, ALAC.... These are called CODECs (coder/decoder). Whatever is playing these files needs a codec for that format to be able to decode it/uncompress it into a standard digital audio format.
DACs don't know anything about codecs. They just accept SP/DIF (optical or coax digital audio) or USB audio. They cannot accept MP3 files bitstreamed over optical, for example. Well, they could, but it wouldn't resemble anything like music! They then convert the digital audio into analogue audio.
Essentially, a DAC only accepts digital audio, a streamer accepts audio wrapped up in a file format.
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Thanks for the clarification. Is there a name for the basic digital audio format recognised by a DAC?
David
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PCM
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DACs don't know anything about codecs. They just accept SP/DIF (optical or coax digital audio) or USB audio. They cannot accept MP3 files bitstreamed over optical, for example. Well, they could, but it wouldn't resemble anything like music! They then convert the digital audio into analogue audio.
Well in the case of the Naim DAC, and some others, there is a USB port that can accept flash drives with MP3, FLAC or WAV files. You can also connect an iDevice as they shelled out the bucks for the chip. Yes these are surely decoded to PCM before they hit the DAC chips, but I figured I would clarify.
-Patrick
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LOL, OK fair enough!
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Hi Patrick,
I'm still so new to this subject that I have not yet fully grasped the distinction between a streamer (or 'network player' in Naim parlance) and a DAC. Please feel free to educate me on this point.
David
David,
All of Naim's streamers have an internal DAC. The standalone DAC, especially with power supply, is said by some to be superior to the streamers. But you should try it out. Apparently it is a different presentation. My thought is I want my PC/JRiver to do all of the streaming work so why pay huge sums for a Naim streamer.
That said, if you wanted a nice clean one-box source, without a local PC, the Naim streamers are great. In this scenario though JRiver would most likely be a headless server somewhere which you would pull from with Naims iOS app (N-Stream), or the NDX's front panel.
Even if I had a Naim streamer in front of my Naim DAC, I would still use JRiver and JRemote. That kind of makes much of the NDX redundant.
-Patrick
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Patrick,
I will certainly give some serious thought as to whether a DAC offers a better solution for my needs than a streamer. I will also request a Naim DAC demo from my local dealer.
BTW, would it be true to say that it is the network connectivity that really marks the key difference between all DACs and streamers, or are there hybrid devices that offer both Ethernet and USB connections?
I have found that Googling for guidance on computer-based music is a bit of a hit and miss affair. You have to filter out a lot of garbage and you tend to find just scattered pieces of a complex jigsaw. I really do appreciate all the help and support you guys are giving me via this forum to find the missing pieces and help me assemble a complete picture :)
David
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Hi David
Sorry for the delay in revisiting this thread.
My source for saying that Naim are “very clear” about not pushing music to their streamers is Naim HQ. Also mentioned in many threads on their forum.
Naim Tech: Support are mainly Steve Hopkins and Phil Harris, I have had both face to face and telephone conversations with both of them specifically on this subject, as well as many others. ;D I also have a Qute and NDX and can assure you that this is the case, that’s not to say that you can’t push music to them at all, but doing so for any length of time will cause the system to stop working and require a reboot. Used as intended, the system runs for months on end without issue, I run our system at least 12hrs a day, everyday, without issue.
As I said in previous post, I don’t use wireless so am unable to offer any advice or suggestions on that side of controlling a system, but am aware that many/most people use an ipad, iphone etc for this purpose. I also note that a method of using an Android device has been discovered by some forum members, Naim have expressed an intention of making n-stream Android compatible at some point.
One final point is as Patrick has already suggested, the Naim DAC with a direct connection to a PC or Mac is an excellent alternative that would allow an alternative option. You have to push to the DAC of course.
My NDX is connected to the DAC and I am at this time trialling MC 18 for Mac with an optical connection from Mac and can say that for me this is proving to be a compelling partnership. Once the guys at J R have the Mac version running or I should perhaps say the setup and functionality working rather more stable that at present, I may switch to this method permanently myself.
Peter
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My source for saying that Naim are “very clear” about not pushing music to their streamers is Naim HQ. Also mentioned in many threads on their forum.....Naim Tech: Support are mainly Steve Hopkins and Phil Harris
........My NDX is connected to the DAC.....
Peter
Hi Peter,
As it happens, I have already exchanged a few emails with Phil Harris at Naim and I contacted him again this morning, quoting your comment about pushing music to the NDX. I have not yet had his reply, but from what you say, he is simply going to confirm your advice.
On another topic, I am a little puzzled by your remark that your "NDX is connected to the DAC". What purpose does that serve, given that you can only make one conversion from digital to analogue?
David
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Haggis,
Many find that the Naim DAC (BEST value in the Naim line) is superior to the DAC in the NDX. Why someone would use both the NDX and the DAC is something Peter would have to chime in on. Not using the internal NDX DAC makes it a very expensive UPNP Player with digital output.
I need to try a Qute or ND5X in front of my DAC and see what I notice. But as long as I have an HTPC 3 feet away from my Hifi it makes it a tough sell. Source matters of course, but digital feeding specifically the Naim DAC shouldn't matter to much as many find it to be fairly source agnostic. The way it handles jitter (imho the only thing that can affect the signal) it shouldn't matter if it is a PC or an NDX feeding the DAC, provided the player is bit perfect and not resampling (Airport Express) etc....
Good luck and have fun!!
-Patrick
PS - You said "a DAC" in your post above. Make that "the DAC There is only one to consider... Naim. A DAC is a DAC is DAC, but a Naim is a Naim is a Naim.
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Hi David
Patrick sums it up well, why did I buy an NDX? Well if I am absolutely honest I would have to say that ignorance at the time played a big part in my decision. I did not really appreciate what the DAC was capable of, although I thought streaming was the way to go and the NDX at the time was the best on offer, you cannot stream directly to the DAC.
I learnt a lot from a few core members of the Naim forum at the time and by testing their findings/suggestions at home in our system ended up where we are at the moment. IMHO the DAC sounds superior to the NDX and is therefore an upgrade. So, the NDX receives the music streamed from the server in our NAS or from one of our PC’s running J River, this is then passed straight out to the DAC which does the conversion and passes that on to the Pre-Amp.
The point is the DAC is what determines the final sound in our system from the source side, therefore how the signal is fed into the DAC is perhaps less important (although the old adage of rubbish in gets rubbish out is still applicable). From that point of view if we find we don’t need to stream, by connecting a computer directly to the DAC, the NDX could be considered overkill; the Qute would probably do the job just as well.
Another point raised by Patrick is that of external power supplies fitted to Naim kit, I am a great believer in this approach, the DAC benefits greatly from this. I would emphasis that Naim don’t make any product that doesn’t sound excellent just as it is supplied, many people use them and are very happy with them. If you wish to improve your sound Naim have a solution to offer, usually several.
If I were starting from scratch today I would decide how I wished to control the system and only then look for the products that allow me to achieve whatever control I required.
As ever, these are very personal opinions offered for consideration, your requirements might be very different to mine. Try before you buy.
Peter
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If I were starting from scratch today I would decide how I wished to control the system and only then look for the products that allow me to achieve whatever control I required.
Peter
That is certainly the approach I am taking. Ideally, I want a solution that is flexible enough to permit the use of a powerful Windows-based controller, such as MC18, in addition to a sofa-based control system, i.e. an iPad app.
If I was to use a Naim DAC, would I attach it to my PC via a USB cable? If so, I guess I would have to locate the DAC quite close to my PC. Does it matter what flavour of USB is used? Is there anything in the PC that would affect the sound quality? Can a Naim DAC be controlled via nStream or would I have to use an iPad app to control MC?
David
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you wrote
If I were starting from scratch today I would decide how I wished to control the system and only then look for the products that allow me to achieve whatever control I required.
I think this is the most important piece of wisdom that I learned as well. And by control... i mean a careful look at the interface that you want to use.... JRiver has several ways to do this and I use them all at different times.
You will never quite know how much control of your music and video collection you will want down the road and you want a system that will be WAF approved as well.
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I am assuming that WAF = Wife And Family, in which case I can only agree. I already have to suffer a degree of earache from family visitors about the user friendliness of a programmable remote control for my hi-fi and home cinema kit! I'm the only one that fully understands how it works, though my technophobe wife can cope fairly well with the basics as she uses it every day (unlike our visitors).
Both our sons, who left the nest a while ago, own iPads so I will not have a problem in experimenting with any apps before purchasing an iPad of my own.
David
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David
The Naim Dac requires one of the following types of connection, BNC coaxial S/PDIF, Optical S/PDIF or RCA phono coaxial S/PDIF, USB is not catered for except for USB sticks or Apple iPods or iPhones which can be connected through either the front or rear USB socket.
I have not found a PC card that would give me BNC coaxial out and do not have the knowledge as to whether or not the standard optical out supplied on many modern motherboards would be sufficiently good, but I doubt it would.
This is why I am currently trialling MC 18 for Mac (on a Macbook Pro) as it is claimed by many that the current version of the Mac Mini has an excellent quality Optical out connection and would in fact be a relatively cheap connection to the DAC. Used headless it would be quite inconspicuous near the rack. I am currently selecting and playing music from the other side of the room using Gizmo on a netbook – it has worked without any issue whatsoever so far, a week or so now.
I would ask you bear in mind that we are unable to use wireless and it is for this reason that we are limited in choice of control. As you mention the use of an ipad for control you have many more options available. So, a choice between the NDX or DAC really can be decided on sound alone, not a bad option to have.
Your questions: Yes there is a lot of noise in a computer that unless steps are taken to minimise can ruin the sound, this is what makes streaming attractive.
No, n-stream can only be used with a streaming product. If you choose the DAC option then JRemote will I believe do a very good job, but please check this out yourself, as I have no personal experience with it. As I said, I am using Gizmo, a fairly basic control (perhaps to basic for your needs) but you could also consider remote desktop on windows or screen share on Mac to directly control a computer.
Get your dealer to demo both options; I wish you well in your discovery.
Peter
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Ah, I did wonder if the PC sound card came into the picture somewhere. You have now answered that question.
Does the quality of sound card matter much (within reason) if you are just using a digital output?
David
EDIT: Further reading suggests that DACs with an ansychronous USB input do exist, though possibly not from Naim. There seems to be no end to the number of different hardware and software combinations for playing computer-based music...
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David,
You should also consider the future of your PC box for movies as well.
a coax or fiber spdf output will carry dolby digital 5.1 standard resolution audio. (but would be occupied if you went with a Naim)
target would be your AV reciever
a high resolution digital audio output will come through an hdmi connection and will carry the high resolution multichannel audio found on Blue Ray formats. (target would be an hdmi input on your AV reciever)
USB audio cables are limited to 15 ft in lenght and so your gear must be that close.
Target of course is a two channel DAC capable of using high resolution audio files
DLNA connections never meet audiophile standards and they are idiosynchratic to boot.
Computer Audiophile is a great resource to start browsing! there are a million ways to solve the problem.
err... WAF.... Wife and Family... or Wife Acceptance Factor.... YMMV (grin)
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haggis999 - naim do have a DAC with an asynch (and isolated) USB input, the DAC V1. Here (http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/dac-v1) is a link. It also has 5 s/pdif inputs so could be useful for connecting your tv, blu-ray, cd player (if you have one). It is a combined DAC/pre-amp, which gives you a lot of flexibility, and there is a matching power amp. Not a bad price either.
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You should also consider the future of your PC box for movies as well.......a high resolution digital audio output will come through an hdmi connection and will carry the high resolution multichannel audio found on Blue Ray formats. (target would be an hdmi input on your AV reciever)
Computer Audiophile is a great resource to start browsing! there are a million ways to solve the problem.
Unless ripping technology has recently improved to include the subtitles then it is unlikely I will consider ripping my DVD and Blu-ray collection (I suspect that what we Brits call 'subtitles' might be referred to as 'closed captions' in the USA).
I ripped one of my opera DVDs a few years ago to help me prepare a talk to a music society but never repeated the exercise as I found that there was no way at that time to copy the subtitles, which I had to recreate manually using Adobe Premiere Elements (just for my selected tracks). Unless you are fluent in the predominant operatic languages of Italian and German, English subtitles are essential. In addition, my wife's hearing is not what it was and she prefers to use subtitles for TV and all movies we watch on DVD or Blu-ray.
That said, I'm not sure how you get a high resolution digital audio output from a PC "through an hdmi connection". Are there special types of PC sound card that support HDMI?
David
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haggis999 - naim do have a DAC with an asynch (and isolated) USB input, the DAC V1. Here (http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/dac-v1) is a link. It also has 5 s/pdif inputs so could be useful for connecting your tv, blu-ray, cd player (if you have one). It is a combined DAC/pre-amp, which gives you a lot of flexibility, and there is a matching power amp. Not a bad price either.
As it happens, I attempted yesterday to use the comparison facility provided on the Naim website to try and establish the differences between the Naim DAC and the DAC V1. Unfortunately, each set of specifications was obviously written by a different person without following a standard format and it was a very uninformative exercise. However, the DAC V1 is about half the price of its predecessor so I guess it is unlikely to offer the same sound quality.
David
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Hi David
I think the quality of the sound card would be a very important consideration, my problem is finding a card that gives me the output connection I would like, BNC would suit me fine. I Think!
I would be looking for a card from someone like ESI - (ESI Juli@ PCI Audio Interface) as a minimum if I decide to go that way.
As already suggested, the Computer Audiophile website is an informative source of information; check out their C.A.P.S. servers as this will give an indication of what needs to be considered.
I did not mention the Dac-V1 as it is a different animal to the one we are talking about and is aimed at a different segment of the market. That dosen’t mean its not worth a look though, it depends where you are aiming for with your system.
As you know in some respects this is a fast moving market, but in other way, computer servers for example, it seem almost glacial.
Peter
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My enthusiasm for MC has increased by several notches as a result of installing the Gizmo app on my Samsung Galaxy Note 2. I have now cut short my MC trial and paid for a license!
Using an app such as MC is made easier for me by the fact that I already have my main computer (a Dell Precision Workstation T7500) installed in our living room quite close to my hi-fi kit. This Dell machine is a big beast but its fans and SATA drives are very quiet and have passed the WAF test.
If the quality of the PC sound card is important for use with a DAC why I am I struggling to find sound card reviews on the Computer Audiophile website?
David
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I wouldn't have thought myself that there would be any issue with sound cards if outputting to the DAC via optical. The DAC is itself basically a sound card and it's what a sound card does, if you output via optical then you're bypassing any processing that the sound card is doing. Whether you're connecting to the DAC via USB or optical the software is outputting the same digital audio to both and both interfaces should output it bit-perfect. I assume...
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That said, I'm not sure how you get a high resolution digital audio output from a PC "through an hdmi connection". Are there special types of PC sound card that support HDMI?
No - these will only be available via graphics cards (or onboard graphics) with HDMI output. The graphics card is then seen by Windows as an extra audio device.
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ah... Opera subtitles... (Wife is desperate for me to get that sorted out for her amateur singing).
Make a shout out if someone has any wisdom.
I believe that you need an srt file along with your video file. I have not explored this one yet with MC but I see the menu options.
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The issue with an s/pdif signal is the amount of jitter present on it, and what the DAC does to ameliorate it's effects. The naim DAC has a buffer and picks from a set of fixed frequency clocks to reclock the data out of it's buffer so minimizing (they claim) the jitter in the output. Other DACs have different strategies; most try and smooth the clock signal out. naim have white papers on their website explaining their technology. But network DACs can't have any issues with input jitter, since there is no clock signal embedded with the data, so they start with an advantage.
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haggis999 - naim do have a DAC with an asynch (and isolated) USB input, the DAC V1. Here (http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/dac-v1) is a link. It also has 5 s/pdif inputs so could be useful for connecting your tv, blu-ray, cd player (if you have one). It is a combined DAC/pre-amp, which gives you a lot of flexibility, and there is a matching power amp. Not a bad price either.
It is also a preamp with proper volume pot. Just add amp and speakers.
-Patrick
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A Naim DAC V1 is certainly a potential solution but I am prepared to pay for a more expensive solution, such as the Naim DAC, if it offers a clearly audible improvement.
I've never previously paid much attention to the audio facilities on my PC but a quick check shows that I just have basic on-board audio with simple analogue line-in and line-out phono sockets. To use a Naim DAC I might therefore have to buy a sound card to get the required SP/DIF output. We appear to have some differing options here as to whether it is worth spending money on anything more than a basic card. If extra money just buys a better DAC in the card, then that would appear to be wasted expense.
However, buying a sound card might not be the best solution. I have read some very positive reviews of the Musical Fidelity V-Link 192, an audiophile-quality asynch USB to SP/DIF converter.
Incidentally, to get a DAC demo in a hi-fi store using my music files and MC18, I would need to take along my Samsung Chronos laptop. This computer's normal audio (and video) output is via HDMI, which would require a converter device to drive a DAC via optical or SP/DIF. Such converters do exist but not at a trivial cost. Perhaps I should look for a dealer that can also demo the Musical Fidelity V-Link 192, or something similar, so that I could use the USB output of my laptop.
Or I could buy a streamer...
David
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The naim NDX is in the same price ball-park as the naim DAC. You could stream to the NDX from a pc anywhere on your network, and you could run MC18 on that pc as a DLNA server. This removes any potential issues with s/pdif. A shop should be able to put your laptop on it's network for a dem. But if you are looking for a USB to s/pdif converter to use with the naim DAC, you might want to look at models from audiophilleo. naim use audiophilleo technology in their V1, so it's probably got their seal of approval. A good shop should be able to give you a V1 vs NDX vs nDAC demo with your music and your laptop. Not to mention power supply upgrades and £450 naim mains cables.
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Other DACs have different strategies; most try and smooth the clock signal out. naim have white papers on their website explaining their technology. But network DACs can't have any issues with input jitter, since there is no clock signal embedded with the data, so they start with an advantage.
My understanding is that the computer overhead needed to operate as a network device is not a small issue. The electrical isolation and what not that is needed has tended to get designers to split the two jobs up into two boxes.. Very much the same idea as getting the analog stage far away from your PC (the argument for not going with an expensive PC audio card). Streamers put both into the same box while async USB DACS (one of those different then Naim strategies) is the other approach.
Eventually you need a great clock to feed the DAC and this is the low jitter environment that you need for the inner detail that you want.
Do you know of comparisons between Streamers with Dacs and USB Dacs. Are the differences audible, ease of use, speed and responsiveness of the interface?
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The naim NDX is in the same price ball-park as the naim DAC.
$5200 vs $3700 is a pretty big ballpark. Especially considering much of the NDX is redundant with the MC Server/PC. Then if you consider the possibility that the Naim DAC might be a better source.......
Sound quality being relatively equal, I think it all comes down to:
- Where is the PC
- Is there another PC in the house that can act as server, with attached hard drives and running 24/7ish
- Can you run ethernet between the two?
-patrick
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Many thanks to everyone for all the help and guidance. I have now taken myself off to lie down in a darkened room to mull over the pros and cons of DAC versus streamer, with the assistance of the comments made in this thread and some previous discussions on this topic I have found on other forums.
David