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More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 19 for Windows => Topic started by: JimH on August 02, 2013, 10:11:38 am

Title: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JimH on August 02, 2013, 10:11:38 am
I sent Matt this email recently:

 > Matt,
 > You asked what I thought the big opportunities for MC19 might be.   If we could support XBMC skins or make it easy to port them, that might get some people to take a look at MC.
 >
 > Jim

And here was Matt's reply:

This dovetails with Linux.  Part of the appeal of XBMC is that it runs
on anything (Linux included).  I see a lot of discussion of people
loading it on all sorts of random boxes.

Supporting XBMC skins directly is appealing, but I think it's one of
those things where we would forever be at 80% (sort of like Wine on
Linux).  Your porting idea is more realistic.

Part of the problem is that I generally like the current look of Theater
View.  The 3d lists are slick, everything is smooth, views switches
animate nicely, etc.  So I need help understanding what people want
there.  If I had a list of five things to make it look better,
we might do them because our framework is solid.

 -Matt
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Hendrik on August 02, 2013, 10:39:12 am
I agree with Matt that trying to support another applications skins is just never going to feel perfect.

Maybe there is potential to improve Theater View out of the box, although i'm also in the boat of liking how it works. I prefer watching movies and not requiring loads of eye candy in my player to do it.
But i can understand that some people like the eye candy - so maybe a easy/easier skinning system could help? I'm not sure.

Getting an idea what people really want out of it sounds like a good idea.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: FastKayak on August 02, 2013, 12:41:38 pm
As an occasional contributor to the various eye candy threads let me repeat something.....my opinion obviously....

The biggest return is for JRiver to made skinning easier and open up areas that can not be skinned with today's theater view.  Maybe it isn't to port XBMC skins, but rather determine how XBMC allows their player to be skinned.  And adapting that design to MC. 

And consider having a conversion (offline perhaps) with XPLAIN and find out where he hit skinning obstacles.  Then sit back and determine next steps. 

I don't have a problem with current skins as they certainly have their fans....but, I would welcome more skin variety.  For example I would like one of the movie views to use the various icons for dolby didital, DTS etc.  Like the back of the DVD/Blu-ray case.  Others don't care for this.  No problem, but can't we have it both ways?  Another example, I don't find the dots for volume or play progress useful.  Others like them.  Can't we have it both ways? 

To paraphrase Reagan, take down the wall(s) [to skinning].

FastKayak / Larry

Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: kensn on August 02, 2013, 01:03:31 pm
I do not believe you could find 5 things that everyone agrees on.. tastes vary... a lot.

Opening theaterview to easier skinning would be time well spent, once, to allow the users to do the rest of the work. (I have tinkered a bit to set a few preferences I like) 

I really like the current system also. I am also one who would like the DD, DTS and various other icons to be able to be displayed in my movie info.

I would even take time to develop custom pics for theaterview to use for some artists instead of relying on online sources. I would like to use my own photos for a few of them.

Give the people the power.... It will free you to develop intercom capability..... :o

Ken
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 02, 2013, 01:59:49 pm
I also agree that supporting 3rd party skins might seem appealing, but its not where MC should go IMO. Having an XBMC skin on MC would make it feel awkward - Seeing XBMC on the screen but it doesn't work like XBMC (obviously) is, in my mind, just wrong. I don't think I could cope with that very well.

I really like MC's theater view, its unique and it generally works very well. I struggle with the remote sometimes getting in and out of the menus when I'm browsing media but that's about it. That's not to say Theater View can't be improved because I think there is plenty of room for that.

One of the things I would really like if skins could modify every aspect of how it looks, how it displays and what it displays. Let a skinner create its own display views for media, which metadata to display, etc etc. So instead of supporting 3rd party skins, allow skinners to create similar skins for MC instead.

Plugins. Make it easier to make them work with MC and integrate?

Another thing is metadata. Some things aren't scraped (comes up quite often on the forums) and I think displaying metadata can be better in Theater view views.

Last but not least: Configuration while in Theater View. I really miss not being able to configure (certain aspects of) Theater View from within Theater View, from the couch, with the remote. I gotta hand it to the XBMC guys, everything is configurable from the couch - everything. And I'm not saying MC should entirely be configurable from Theater View, but at least the important things. I would like to control Madvr with the remote and I've often wondered if it wouldn't be possible to make a wrapper for Madvr's configuration so I could quickly disable interlacing or turn scaling a notch down for instance. Other things would be volume leveling or quickly apply an equalizer preset.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JustinChase on August 02, 2013, 02:42:48 pm
As has been mentioned, I think you should spend time on enhancing the skinning/modifying capability of MC, then let creative folks create their artwork.  I'm not familiar enough to tell you where the system is lacking, but I've seen some threads with these things laid out.  If you make it easier to tweak the look of theater view (and allow views to be created once, for use in all the areas), that would be enough for most people I think.

I would just suggest that this task be considered 'a work in progress' for some period of time, since I suspect you'll start getting a steady stream of "can we allow it to ..." for a while.  It will take a while before you've 'opened up' the system enough for everyone to do what they want to do.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Matt on August 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm
While more skinning flexibility is a good goal, I think it's sort of a dodge to the question of what specific things could be made better.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MrHaugen on August 02, 2013, 03:19:28 pm
I love that you've started thinking along those lines. As you know, I'm all Theater View.

I believe that supporting the XBMC skins would never work well. The skins are updated frequently, and modifications are often done for the XBMC skins for new versions. So, you would just add a LOT of work for your self. Porting the skins are kind of hitting some of the same obstacles. You'll be asked to port new skins all the time as the developers add new skins and functionality. There's no doubt that XBMC have some really slick Skins, and NOT only based on Eye candy. It's also highly functional in many cases. MediOS and other media centers also have beautiful skins, but XBMC are the favorite so far, and itsimply have more dedicated users creating peaces of art.

As many others here mentions, I believe the only way to attack this is to add functionality to the Theater View skinning engine, and making it as easy as possible for the users to understand. Without having to be a programming expert to do modifications. I'm not talking of a rewrite, but improvements. This will attract tons of developers, and in the end the skins will attract the masses. Many people just look at the bling first. Not the functionality. those of us that only care about functionality ARE the minority. So things like this is vital to bring the casual users to MC19 imo.

I've posted a rather complete suggestion for additions to Theater View a couple of years ago. It's called "Modernizing Theater View". It's on the beta forum. I believe that many of those suggestions shows pretty easily what skinning and meta data capabilities are needed to get on par and beyond XBMC. Move it to public forum if you want to.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: kensn on August 02, 2013, 03:33:10 pm
Quote from: Matt on August 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm
While more skinning flexibility is a good goal, I think it's sort of a dodge to the question of what specific things could be made better.

The ability to personalize it:

How long the Album art shows on a track change until it fades out. Maybe not show album art, just images.

How long until the new fade out occurs.

I would like to assign different list styles to different drill down levels instead of having 1 type for the whole view.  I would like to have Showroom view when I reached the Artist level, showing the albums in showroom style in some views but not start with a showroom list style.

Custom icons based on tags for DTS DD ect...

Ken

Ken

Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MrC on August 02, 2013, 03:37:51 pm
Here's one I'd like to see changed - maybe it is already possible.

In the file view, there's a nice large, tilted movie image on the right.  On the left, there is a long list of property values, most of which come no where near close to filling up the entire containing box.  Duration, Critic Rating, Date, MPAA Rating will never fill up much space, yet they are all laid-out as in a single column.  So much of the file view is essentially empty.  It would be nice if these could be grouped and flowed better, especially the immutable ones.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: HTPC4ME on August 02, 2013, 06:13:58 pm
Our family's in order of importance

1. playing now on roll bars (top or bottom) but somewhere... So that we know what is playing, and we do not have to leave Display view, which also would allow us to Right/Left click to goto next or previous item as was available in Version 17.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=77543.msg556060#msg556060

2. ability to reload current library from theaterview, instead of having to exit, goto standard view/file and reclicking on the library to auto refresh it... this would speed up reloading of client theaterviews when servers have auto import turned on... maybe it could quite simply be called refresh library, and it could be nested next to playing now on main theaterview screen. (or better yet able to be placed where we want to place it.)

3. trailers to be able to be click able/viewable from with in theaterview. right now all video files just show as having a link to trailers, but none of them are clickable/viewable. (embed trailer links into theaterview views)

4. ability to load other server libraries from within theaterview instead of having to exit.

5. opening up theaterview for plugins/widgets so that jrivers users could have a 100% customizable theater view. (something similar to android home screen launchers. where the users could just move items around, or buy/download other users plugins/widgets/backgrounds/themes/sounds and install them)
allowing for custom icons (animated .gifs /.swf's), personalized graphics/backgrounds/artist art, personalized sounds/audio clips that are played when actions are performed, links (#3 above, choosing where you would like the player to be located within each view), shortcuts (being able to jump from movies to music or weather instantly) send to's (share to facebook, twitter, email etc.)
plugins users might make ... weather gadgets, yahoo/facebook messengers, stock tickers, sleep timers, info panels, clocks (analog/digital), rss streaming feeds, etc...
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: FastKayak on August 02, 2013, 06:27:33 pm
Quote from: Matt on August 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm
While more skinning flexibility is a good goal, I think it's sort of a dodge to the question of what specific things could be made better.

Reminds me of

(Walk down the corridor)
M: (Knock)
A:   Come in.
M:   Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A:   I told you once.
M:   No you haven't.
A:   Yes I have.
M:   When?
A:    Just now.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M:  You didn't
A:   I did!
M:  You didn't!
A:   I'm telling you I did!
M:  You did not!!
A:   Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument theater view requirements [v17 or so] or the full half hour?
M:  Oh, just the five minutes.
A:   Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M:  You most certainly did not.
A:   Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
  .
  .
  .
  .
  .


FastKayak / Larry
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JimH on August 02, 2013, 06:41:40 pm
xtacbyme wins the five point contest by a length and a half.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Marra on August 02, 2013, 06:48:26 pm
Environment : Controlling 7 zone house music system using ipad via teamviewer.

1 Ability for 2 display zones like in standard view eg as you drill down through menu options, zone 2 shows list of tracks selected similarly to search selections. Easy to hide/reveal zone 2

2 Pop up to give quicker access to playing now details and controls, zone changing, QWERTY keyboard.  User configurable.

3 Better use of icons eg icons for artist, album, track like AMG.

4 Better use of artist images eg when expressions are used to display artist details, currently no artist image but default album cover. User has ability to switch between artist image or default.

5 More than 2 lines for thumbnails.

6 Make "playing now" and "search" user configurable eg delete menu options not used. Search function similar to standard view rather than list of tracks (search album or artist)

7 Configurable main menu to include playing now details, stats, images as you switch between audio/video/zones

8 Option in items to show "Display All" set at each level eg drill down artist (no "all" option), album (no "all" option), disc # ("all" option, play all discs for album or select single disc)
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: RoderickGI on August 02, 2013, 08:55:00 pm
Well, I'm still new to MC so I haven't formed a real wish list yet, and there are lots of things I want to see outside a better Theatre View that either aren't available or I haven't work out how to do them yet.

First, I like that MC has a Standard View to all the background maintenance work that is required in such a system. I don't want to do everything in Theatre View. The "real application to do real work" and "pretty face to watch and listen to content" was one of the reason I selected MC. However, I would like to see more functional capabilities in Theatre View, no doubt. I am constantly pleased with potential capability I see in MC with the ability to use expressions, search strings, define fields, etc. However I am constantly disappointed by the roadblocks I hit in actually achieving anything in MC, maybe just through lack of accurate, up to date documentation on the fundamentals of the underlying technology. However . . .

Everything Xtacbyme said in Reply 10, particularly points 1. Playing Now, 3. Trailers, and 5. Open up development.

My own points for Theatre view:

1. User defined sort for any and all Guide views, whether standard or user created. Maybe using a dedicated SEQuence field. (Sort by name or channel number isn't good enough, and I want to group some channels together.)

2. Channel logos in all guide views. (Is this possible now? I haven't seen any evidence, but haven't looked to hard at that yet.)

3. A small window on the guide which shows whatever is Playing Now, particularly for video, and most particularly for TV. Just like happens in the action pane in Standard View. Resizable. Moveable. Selectable.

4. Improvement in the Toggle View functionality. It is a pain to toggle through all views to find or get to the one I want. (Although it is quick, I admit.) Some views just aren't sensible in some areas. Maybe have preferred views for each area in the menu system. Perhaps use a drop down list of views and scroll down to select one with an OK, with the option to select next or previous, rather than just next, next next, as now.

5. I don't have a 5. yet, because I would like to see improvements in other areas before Theatre Views gets the resources, such as;

a. FAR better program selection for recording programs, with keywords, rules, search strings, regular expressions, filters, better retention rules (i.e. Only delete after watching AND a period, or all previous episodes watched.)

b. Rules based default start and end padding for recordings, (An Australian thing, as our broadcasters often start late or early, and often finish late. Maybe hours late!) such as different padding for different times of the day (morning, day, evening, prime time, late, overnight, or better yet, user defined time zones), different padding for different channels or groups of channels. Or better yet, just use the Freeview EPG inband CRID data to update the EPG and recording start and end time data, with much smaller padding to ensure all of a program is captured by a recording.

c. FAR better EPG data collection and management. Allow control over when EPG data is loaded, rather than just "once a day when MC feels like it" as now. Allow use of multiple sources of EPG data within and managed by MC, with priorities so that good sources are used when available, and less accurate sources are used when the good sources don't have data for a channel. For example, import XMLTV EPG data from a reliable EPG Data source such as IceTV (Australia) for channels they support, and use inband EIT or Freeviews data FOR ALL OTHER CHANNELS THAT ARE NOT HIDDEN. Use Freeview EPG inband CRID data to fine tune start and end times for the EPG in the immediate future.

d. As highlighted above, show all channels that are not hidden in any Guide for which they meet selection criteria, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THERE IS EPG DATA FOR THEM. Fix the problem where scrolling up and down the Guide stops at any channel where there isn't data for the current period, so that lower channels can't be scrolled to.

e. I need to learn and play around with MC more, but I think there needs to be some attention to management and display of recorded TV (as apposed to downloaded) with tagging, series-season-episode identification and use in Theatre View, and conversion of JTV files to something more appropriate for long term storage and sharing. I mean, if I know the Series and Episode name, why can't I look up TV data from within MC? Why should I have to have the Season and Episode number as well? I can go to various sites with just the Series and Episode name and look up the Season and Episode numbers, so why can't MC?

Okay. That will do for now. Sorry for going off topic, and the wall of text.

Personally though, I think you will get just as much attention if not more from potential new users if the TV functionality is improved a lot more, as you will get from a prettier face on Theatre View. The TV functionality is just there now. There are, or have been, far better TV solutions available. Some have fallen by the wayside as technology and ownership changed. If I wasn't looking for an all in one Media Server solution for TV, Music, Movies and Images, MC would not have been my choice.
Title: Re: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: apgood on August 02, 2013, 09:36:25 pm
Some sort of subtitle download tool that can be used from within theater view is probably the thing I miss most from xbmc. So make that no. 1

I know that there is a subtitle download plugin made by someone but I found in v18 it would stop any movie I was watching after about 20mins for some reason. Removed the plugin is went away. Besides it didn't allow selecting subtitles for only a movie when you wanted to via theater view.

For the other 4 top requests it would probably be the ability to do all tasks like library management and change madvr and other settings through 10ft interface (I.e. extension of what is already there). Mind you library management would be a lower priority via 10ft interface if mc on Linux / unraid port becomes a reality (with possibly a web interface for library management).

Oh and brightness dimming to reduce plasma burn etc...
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: FastKayak on August 02, 2013, 10:27:21 pm
I was mostly responding to this "If we could support XBMC skins or make it easy to port them, that might get some people to take a look at MC."  

Go back and look at my first post in this thread, it has 5+ specific suggestions.  I respectfully suggest you have more of a business problem than needs to be solved by the excellent technology your team creates.  Maybe your team should be "not allowed" to run MC, instead they have to live in XBMC for a week or so, or until they cry Uncle. That should provide plenty of specifics and a longish list of things to look at within MC/theater view.

I've used XBMC.  I find it big on looks and small on function.  If you want to get the market (customers) that XBMC owns then figure out the competitive differences (from what I can tell, somewhat ergonomics and certainly skinning) and then move forward with developing a better MC.

FastKayak / Larry
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MrHaugen on August 03, 2013, 06:51:16 am
I'll copy some of the stuff I've used before. These are my top five changes I would like seen added to the skinning engine, and some of it have to be fixed in MC as well to accommodate the changes.

1. Allow more images, and allow adding them anywhere in the skins
This goes for Info Pane, List Views and Main menu. I guess some of those can be done with the skins today, so this is more about adding images like Banners and Artist images to MC, and then allowing users to use all these images where they want in the skins. This is one example of how it could be used.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Banners%20-%20Full%20Page%20-%20No%20Info%20Pane%20-%20Captions.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Banners%20-%20Full%20Page%20-%20No%20Info%20Pane%20-%20Captions.jpg)

2. Allow adding Icons that represent text and values
Examples are Watched/Not Watched, Resolution, Sound, Channels and encoding. Allow this icons to be added to info panes. This is a good example, which is used in many XBMC and other MC' skins.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Details%20-%20Half%20Page%20-%20Small%20Half%20Info%20Pane%20-%20Captions.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Details%20-%20Half%20Page%20-%20Small%20Half%20Info%20Pane%20-%20Captions.jpg)
This gives us valuable information at a quick glance. You don't have to read stuff and you can compress these icons much better than lots of text.

3. Allow skinning the different 3D views
Adding Meta Data and images to for instance the cover flow view. Example:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/Movies%20-%20Cover%20Flow%20-%20Top%20Info%20Pane.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/Movies%20-%20Cover%20Flow%20-%20Top%20Info%20Pane.jpg)

4. Allow control of the positions and size of the List Views as well as the Info Pane and the Larg Info Pane
Example:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20High%20Thumbs%20-%20Half%20List%20Screen%20-%20Half%20Small%20Info%20Pane.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20High%20Thumbs%20-%20Half%20List%20Screen%20-%20Half%20Small%20Info%20Pane.jpg)

Here, we've just changed the Media List hight to about 60% and the Small Info pane at the same size. It gives more room for backdrops, which some of us love.

5. Add a framework for custom tools to the skin engine for Theater View controls
The alternative is to add this to every skin. As a build in function in theater view. People might want to tweak the options however. This is done to allow people more control of looks and functionality within theater View. For example (temporary?) changing the hard coded values in the skins to change the appearance in Theater View on the fly. Or change the sorting and filtering of the views on the fly. I'll go with my example of a tool box. Examples of a tool box and it's possible uses:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Toolbox4.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Toolbox4.jpg)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20Tiles%20-%20Toolbox%20-%20Appearance%20overview.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20Tiles%20-%20Toolbox%20-%20Appearance%20overview.jpg)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20Tiles%20-%20Toolbox%20-%20Appearance%20list%20style%20menu.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20Tiles%20-%20Toolbox%20-%20Appearance%20list%20style%20menu.jpg)
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Sesam on August 03, 2013, 11:06:57 am
This is a difficult question to answer unless you have made a Theater View skin yourself. I looked into it briefly some time ago, and I remember it appeared to be difficult to design things how I wanted. From the top of my head (I could be mistaken about this), I had trouble figuring out how to display images instead of text as menu items. Lacking capability to use different fonts/styles. Also background transparency could not be customized per view/page.

I think one problem is that MC has a different kind of user-base compared to the open source alternatives. I believe most that use MC just want something that works, so there aren't as many dedicated do-it-yourself people creating skins. And even if skinning theatre view was more flexible, I'm not sure that would spur people to create elaborate skins.

I suggest that the best way to tackle this, is to hire a graphic/skin-artist to design an elaborate Theatre View skin concept the way he/she wants it. And then when trying to make the concept to a working skin, you would see where the skinning engine is not flexible enough. Also having one advanced default skin, would inspire more people to make skins when they see what is possible.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: raym on August 03, 2013, 06:30:56 pm
I like the way theater view looks and feels. Below is what I'd like to see. Most are old favorites.

- better playlist management. It's still not possible to a) save a new playlist to a folder of my choosing and b) edit/re-order/save an existing playlist. The later applies to playing now as well.

- better view management. Move it back into the standard view tree like it used to be ages ago. Having to constantly go back and forth from the options dialog is tedious at best.

- allow certain settings to be changed from the theater view interface. Eg, ability to re-scan TV channels, change skins and themes, configure main menu options etc

- home screen to show PIP of what's playing now, current weather, library stats..... There's so much unused space here!! Loads of potential for really useful info.

- prevent cursor overrun!! Eg, when in the OSK and using a remote, to reach the opposite edge of the keyboard, it would be nice to be able to hold the arrow key down and for the cursor to stop once it reaches the edge. It currently just scrolls endlessly. This also applies to thumbnail lists (right arrow) and roller menus and would speed up remote navigation significantly. Some menus etc stop cursor overrun and some do not. The feature is inconsistent.

- bring back SELECT for videos. Why is it not possible to select a group of videos for batch tagging or deleting. It's fine for audio and images. Why not for video?

- bring back the ability to ADD videos to playing now. Why was this removed?!

- Context based searches. Allow searches from tag names etc.

- generally I think playing now deserves some love. It's tucked away by default under "gadgets" which is weird and too difficult to get to from other views in general. A more functional/ easy to understand progress bar would be good. Those white dots have never cut it for me.  As above, the home screen would be the perfect place to show playing now details.

- better user feedback: when waiting for explorer to load shared drives or waiting for a BD to load. Under these scenarios (and others) MC looks like it has hung. There's no indication that something may be happening in the background and the UI is unresponsive. A progress bar, spinning wheel, anything  would would help a lot  

- OSD: access to video/audio stream info (even when only 1 stream) and playing now details. This was removed some time back for some reason. It would prevent needing to drop back to theater view just to see what's currently playing.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: HTPC4ME on August 03, 2013, 09:18:11 pm
6. Flow Views throughout (like Mr.Haugens #3)- http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71180.0



(http://files.jriver.com/images/theater_view_flow_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 04, 2013, 02:47:14 am
Quote from: Matt on August 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm
While more skinning flexibility is a good goal, I think it's sort of a dodge to the question of what specific things could be made better.

Jim asked you whether MC should support XMBC skins. That is quite a radical change from the skinning possibilities MC currently has but then you come in and limit it to 5 specific things, so who's dodging who here? ;) <- note smiley! I think many of us tried to generalize their wishes to come as close as possible to Jim's original question.

No 5 specific things will get us close to what Jim suggested so while I'm very happy with any improvement you're going to make, it will still leave many of us yearning for more. And while you'll get your 5 points, the community will be divided and only some will be happy in the end.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: gvanbrunt on August 04, 2013, 12:00:41 pm
I think reusing xbmc skins would not be possible. For one thing, they combine look AND layout (menu). In MC the layout is not included in a skin.

However, MC could be radically improved by a few things. For example:

1. As others have suggested, allow views to be skinned. eg cover view etc. :You should be able to control the look of items, backgrounds and various elements. You should also be able to control the transition somewhat. For example, how big and where the "selected" item appears. I think looking at what XBMC allows here would give you some good food for thought.

2. Allowing more elements to be defined on a skin. For example the inclusion of fields in a view. For example what details appear on the screen and where. I know this is separated from skins at the moment, but I think it might be better off here. Most people have a very difficult time getting rating stars, fonts etc the way they want them. I would hazard to say that most users would be happier to just pick a skin with the details the way they want. Power users that can handle the other system already would likely be able to modify a skin they way they want anyway. The current implementation while powerful, is not easy for most users. I would also bet that most think it is part of skin...

3. While you are at it, take all things that control the look of theater view out of the settings, and into the skin. That is one of the biggest problems. To control the look of Theater View you have to do it in 10 different places. I understand separating layout and look, that is a cool feature. However the look is spread all over the place and should only be in the skin. That would include the font size etc. Keeping it separated from a skin, also makes it very difficult to skin.

4. Skinnable OSD. This is a huge thing. Many users want to be able to choose what and where items appear. And how they are selected... I would also love to see a transparent info panel here so I don't have to stop a move to check some fact.

That's four out five, but just those four would allow an incredible amount of variety. IMHO it is the reason MC skins, just don't seem much like skins to most people. No matter which skin you currently choose, the functionality remains relatively the same.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Castius on August 04, 2013, 03:42:51 pm
I'm not to stuck on how with regards to theater view/skinning. I'm more interested in.
Metadata like artist/actor and thumbnails to go with them.
Presentation how can I present that data.
Functionality how do I get around that data.

It's good to help the modding communities. I'd like to contribute too. But I feel like some times i was competing with the designers of theater view. When I see suggestion that change the way theater view currently works. Like removing the ability to delete. I should be able to turn that off. I hope we can find a better way to have the freedom to control all of theater view.

Theater  view was one of the features that brought me the use jriver. Yet it the lest used feature. So I'm looking forward to these changes. We should look better than xmbc and plex. 8)
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: flac.rules on August 04, 2013, 03:56:51 pm
Quote from: Matt on August 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm
While more skinning flexibility is a good goal, I think it's sort of a dodge to the question of what specific things could be made better.

I don't agree, the whole point of skinning is that the 5 things I would like is not the same 5 things as the next guy would like.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: HTPC4ME on August 04, 2013, 04:01:25 pm
Quote
It's good to help the modding communities. I'd like to contribute too. But I feel like some times i was competing with the designers of theater view. When I see suggestion that change the way theater view currently works. Like removing the ability to delete. I should be able to turn that off. I hope we can find a better way to have the freedom to control all of theater view.
Quote
I don't agree, the whole point of skinning is that the 5 things I would like is not the same 5 things as the next guy would like.
great points... just like my number 1. was implemented and we used it everyday, and have missed it everyday since it's been removed. it would be nice to have a different outlook on theaterview/jriver settings completely. if somethings made and users like it, instead of removing it completely, allow users to turn on/turn off features, settings, plugins, widgets, etc... then there are no debates should we add this or remove it, the user can just customize it to their liking.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: paul1970 on August 04, 2013, 04:23:13 pm
Quote from: Elvis133 on August 04, 2013, 03:56:51 pm
I don't agree, the whole point of skinning is that the 5 things I would like is not the same 5 things as the next guy would like.
I agree. In fact, 'more flexibility' is not the goal. Theatre skins that people love is the goal and they need greater flexibility to achieve it. Not saying for one moment that XBMC skins should be supported, but making Aeon Nox (for instance) possible in MC would be a great bar to get over.
'Sirganty' seems to be doing something interesting, but not-yet released under the current regime. I'd love to know how he is going about it.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 05, 2013, 04:13:25 am
Unfortunately, I don't see many "skinners" contributing to this thread.

I think their feedback would be invaluable.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MrHaugen on August 05, 2013, 04:30:44 am
I do not believe we have many Theater View skinners. And the reason is probably that there is little for them to do.
Even though it would be nice with feedback, I do not think it's hard to poinpoint a few things that would dramatically increase the potential of skinning.

Focusing on positioning and resizing of most, if not all elements in Theater View would be a start. Allow people to add meta data where they choose and so on. It's not hard to imagine what would be great to have, but it might be harder to implement in in the skinning engine in a way that's easy to understand. Without ease of use, the addition of new features would only be half as effective imo.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: gappie on August 05, 2013, 08:20:51 am
1. at this point doing some skinning in thv is very hard.. nearly impossible. and i think that that should be one of the first things todo.. let me give an example.

it is possible to add the time and the zone to the views in thv. when you add it to the playing now screen it is added to something that looks like this
<Layout Name="Playing Now D1" Location="Playing Now\Display" >
this works when you enter playing now from the root. when you enter from for instance a one layer (only albums) view you wont see any clock or zone name. you need to make a new item
<Layout Name="Playing Now D2" Location="*\Playing Now\Display" >

but most views have more layers (genre\artist\album) you need also something like
<Layout Name="Playing Now D3" Location="*\*\Playing Now\Display" >

etc.

2. making it possible to add  the PIP (as in the past) to the root

3. putting the playing now view and the files in playing now in one screen. there is so much empty space.

4. more ways to configure the info views. like using more then 4 lines standard.

5. using your own artist and movie backdrops only.

6. a way to get rid of several items in the rolers, like delete, display view in audio

:)
gab
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Castius on August 05, 2013, 10:02:59 am
I'd also like to see a nice way to pull up menus that overlay the current playing media. Like Google TV primetime.
http://gigaom2.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/google-tv-primetime.jpg
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: sirganty on August 06, 2013, 04:30:55 am
Hey guys

I've had a play with skinning, and find it frustrating in its current form, its just not possible to do much.
So much so that in my latest skin, I've resorted to coding my own WCF service which consumes data from MCWS, and spits out images and the skin xml files as it starts up, and at intervals whilst it is running
to keep things fresh.

I agree with what others have mentioned, that each 'page' within theater view should be skinnable, and each list style within that.
The current hierarchical approach to targeting pages is not sufficient.

I would like to be able to design a template for the 'album/grid view' page, the 'movies/cover flow' page, the 'play album', 'watch movie' etc completely independently
including the ability to show metadata at various levels of the browse hierarchy e.g. artist bio data when an artist is selected, or album information, similar artists etc (all of which are available from last.fm/echonest)

I would also like to be able to design the template for the list items in specific list views too, so grid view isn't necessarily cover art with name centre aligned underneath, but could be laid out with cover-art is the background image and name is overlaid with a partially opaque background colour, and i could also include extra information and maybe icons showing channels/codecs etc
at the minute there is very little customisable from this perspective (text colour, background colour, padding, selector), and the 3d views are impossible to skin.

I would also like the rollers to be more graphical, with the ability to create icons representing different options rather than just text

rollers should again be customisable dependent on the location, e.g the menu on the playing now screen can be designed/positioned independently from those in the standard views
I would also like it to be possible to hide the rollers, whether manually or after a time interval, returning on key/button press.

i would like to be able to separate out some of the roller options too, in particular the playback controls (incl. volume/zone selectors) into a different menu, which can be completely visualised rather than using text
and this new menu should be able to also show 'playing now', with potential to show progress, codecs/file types/channels/bitrates etc from anywhere in the UI.

From the root screen I would also like it to be possible to view and select items for playback, perhaps defined in the skin or theatre view options using search expressions or playlists, e.g. recently added, or most played dependent on the roller item currently selected.

Then there is the 'plugin' idea.
there are many web based services which I believe could be easily integrated into MC / theatre view by generating playlists based on urls and metadata provided directly from their apis e.g lovefilm (amazon uk), bbc iplayer, 4od, itv player, now tv (sky) to mention just a few uk based ones.
each plugin would simply be a mapping between the data provided by the specific api and an MC playlist which is browsable / selectable / playable through Theatre View.
A system to allow these to be created & distributed & installed would be a big win from my perspective, and allow me to ditch xbmc forever!

I'm currently working on a WPF application (started life as a MC screensaver) which implements much of the above, and uses MCWS to control MC, but if v19 theatre view is getting a real overhaul, I may stop wasting my time! (although i'll no doubt find something else to tinker with)

just a few ideas ;)
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: alspoll on August 06, 2013, 08:30:33 am
Quote from: MrHaugen on August 03, 2013, 06:51:16 am
I'll copy some of the stuff I've used before. These are my top five changes I would like seen added to the skinning engine, and some of it have to be fixed in MC as well to accommodate the changes.

1. Allow more images, and allow adding them anywhere in the skins
This goes for Info Pane, List Views and Main menu. I guess some of those can be done with the skins today, so this is more about adding images like Banners and Artist images to MC, and then allowing users to use all these images where they want in the skins. This is one example of how it could be used.


With this, an easier way to download this artwork, banners, fan art, season poster, etc using the same pop up similar to "Get movie and tv info" today and saving them in the appropriate folders.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JustinM on August 06, 2013, 10:22:17 am
Quote from: MrHaugen on August 02, 2013, 03:19:28 pm
I believe the only way to attack this is to add functionality to the Theater View skinning engine,..... I'm not talking of a rewrite, but improvements....
I respectfully disagree... and fear Matt is stuck thinking on these lines...  

I believe Theatre View requires restructuring...An api added to support the current theatre view. The current Theatre view dictates the use of the roller system, dictates the use of the (uncustomisable) cover,list,3d views and display view,  and has limited or no ability to add, place or modify the database, expressions, icons, pictures ect.. The current skinning ability is similar to standard view, allowing a skinner to basically pick fonts, color, and some icons.. I think the current theatre view could be re-structured as a skin, with the supporting api for other skinners to use ...  Under this umbrella;  web based material, tv guides,  feature request, and functionality could also be added by skinners...   


Thank-you for any developement of theaterview, and its skinnings ability.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: sirganty on August 06, 2013, 10:27:52 am
this.

Quote from: JustinM on August 06, 2013, 10:22:17 am
I believe Theatre View requires restructuring...An api added between the current theatre view/ future theatre views skins. The current Theatre view dictates the use of the roller system, dictates the use of the (uncustomisable) cover,list,3d views,  and has limited or no ability to add, place or modify the database, expressions, icons, pictures ect.. The current skinning ability is similar to standard view, allowing a skinner to basically pick fonts, color, and some icons..
I think the current theatre view could be structured as a skin, with the supporting api for other skinners...   
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MrHaugen on August 06, 2013, 10:54:05 am
Quote from: JustinM on August 06, 2013, 10:22:17 am
I respectfully disagree... and fear Matt is stuck thinking on these lines... 

I do agree. The best would be to create something new and better. From scratch. But... And this is a big but. The developers have expressed their opinion of a total rewrite earlier. And it was not the cheering kind :) So, instead of this whole idea being shelfed, I'd much rather want them to work and build on what they have. I believe that the current possibilities are fairly limited, so it would not be THAT hard to change some code to make it more user friendly and add nice features at the same time. I might be wrong though.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: FastKayak on August 06, 2013, 11:34:43 am
I don't recall Jim & Matt ever asking for theater view input before. It is encouraging that they are asking. That said, incremental improvement to theater view won't come close to XBMC's skins. And if they really want to get to some level of skinning parity then I think starting from scratch is the only choice.  I, for one, have little need for MC functional improvement but would love to see visual improvement.

FastKayak / Larry
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JustinM on August 12, 2013, 01:12:14 pm
Quote from: MrHaugen on August 03, 2013, 06:51:16 am
I'll copy some of the stuff I've used before. These are my top five changes I would like seen added to the skinning engine, and some of it have to be fixed in MC as well to accommodate the changes.

1. Allow more images, and allow adding them anywhere in the skins
This goes for Info Pane, List Views and Main menu. I guess some of those can be done with the skins today, so this is more about adding images like Banners and Artist images to MC, and then allowing users to use all these images where they want in the skins. This is one example of how it could be used.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Banners%20-%20Full%20Page%20-%20No%20Info%20Pane%20-%20Captions.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Banners%20-%20Full%20Page%20-%20No%20Info%20Pane%20-%20Captions.jpg)

2. Allow adding Icons that represent text and values
Examples are Watched/Not Watched, Resolution, Sound, Channels and encoding. Allow this icons to be added to info panes. This is a good example, which is used in many XBMC and other MC' skins.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Details%20-%20Half%20Page%20-%20Small%20Half%20Info%20Pane%20-%20Captions.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20Details%20-%20Half%20Page%20-%20Small%20Half%20Info%20Pane%20-%20Captions.jpg)
This gives us valuable information at a quick glance. You don't have to read stuff and you can compress these icons much better than lots of text.

3. Allow skinning the different 3D views
Adding Meta Data and images to for instance the cover flow view. Example:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/Movies%20-%20Cover%20Flow%20-%20Top%20Info%20Pane.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/Movies%20-%20Cover%20Flow%20-%20Top%20Info%20Pane.jpg)

4. Allow control of the positions and size of the List Views as well as the Info Pane and the Larg Info Pane
Example:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Small%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20High%20Thumbs%20-%20Half%20List%20Screen%20-%20Half%20Small%20Info%20Pane.jpg)
Click to enlarge. (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8820265/Theater%20View%20Documentation/Big%20Images/TV%20Shows%20-%20High%20Thumbs%20-%20Half%20List%20Screen%20-%20Half%20Small%20Info%20Pane.jpg)

Here, we've just changed the Media List hight to about 60% and the Small Info pane at the same size. It gives more room for backdrops, which some of us love.


BTW: Mrhaugen,, These are spot on! If JRiver goes the feature route; They need these...
(#5 is great too, I just hope my kids or company don't stumble on it :P )
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: cncb on August 12, 2013, 01:38:31 pm
Note that SageTV allowed the use of XBMC skins for their program and while it seemed to take a lot of work for them (SageTV) to develop this option/functionality I don't remember anyone discussing ever using it.

For me, just adding some file/list counts would be a big improvement as I posted here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82705.0
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: bigref on August 12, 2013, 06:49:23 pm
I just want to be able to move the main menu to the left, so that it doesn't scroll off the right edge of the screen.  The only info I can find relate to main.xml for MC12.  The instructions relate to things that are not present in MC18's main.xml. ?
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: jdizzy623 on August 13, 2013, 04:50:59 pm
Quote from: sirganty on August 06, 2013, 04:30:55 am
I'm currently working on a WPF application (started life as a MC screensaver) which implements much of the above, and uses MCWS to control MC, but if v19 theatre view is getting a real overhaul, I may stop wasting my time! (although i'll no doubt find something else to tinker with)

I am sitting on the edge of my chair waiting to see what you have come up with as I found your last skin refreshing.
Keep up the good work!

Having tinkered a bit myself with JMC skins I found it very confusing with all the rollers, etc. For me, just trying to position something on the screen was a challenge. XBMC's XML files are way easier to read and work on. I am more of a 'Frankenstein' skinner as I take things I like from several different skins and incorporate them into a customized skin that has all the features I like. XBMC is very modular when it come to skinning.

I agree it is nice to see this being discussed and hope that eventually the user/skinner can have complete control over the interface. It is disheartening to ask a question regarding skinning and never getting an answer.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JustinM on August 22, 2013, 09:06:29 am
bump.. my fingers are still crossed we might see some action in mc19 here. any news , intentions, or feedback  on theaterview and skins from the JRiver team  much appreciated!
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: gvanbrunt on August 22, 2013, 12:08:47 pm
As a long time Beta Tester I can let you know that JRiver don't let anyone now what their plans are. There are many reasons for this, mostly because they develop as they go. So nothing is ever set in stone. However if they are asking for some input, it is a good indication that they will be looking at it.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MrHaugen on August 23, 2013, 02:27:07 am
I certainly hope that JRiver comes up with a plan for further skin development or enhancements. It does not necessarily have to be drastic stuff. But a solid thought of how to improve skinning in time would benefit lots of people. Making it simpler to edit, adding functions, structuring the code differently or rewriting some of it are things that could help spiking the interest for more skin developer and more fancy and information driven skins.

I would guess that skins are one of the major reasons why programs like XBMC have gotten so popular as a media front end (and often backend). So, it's certainly worth considering spending some time thinking of.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: kurushi on August 23, 2013, 05:17:02 am
Quote from: MrHaugen on August 23, 2013, 02:27:07 am
I certainly hope that JRiver comes up with a plan for further skin development or enhancements. It does not necessarily have to be drastic stuff. But a solid thought of how to improve skinning in time would benefit lots of people. Making it simpler to edit, adding functions, structuring the code differently or rewriting some of it are things that could help spiking the interest for more skin developer and more fancy and information driven skins.

I would guess that skins are one of the major reasons why programs like XBMC have gotten so popular as a media front end (and often backend). So, it's certainly worth considering spending some time thinking of.
+100
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: tls62dk on August 23, 2013, 06:06:00 am
The screenshots MrHaugen has in this thread is a very fine example of what I would like to see Theater View be able to show. I agree that it would be nice if it was customizable by users, but I could live with a first step where this was selectable views.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: gvanbrunt on August 23, 2013, 11:31:26 am
Quote from: MrHaugen on August 23, 2013, 02:27:07 am
I certainly hope that JRiver comes up with a plan for further skin development or enhancements. It does not necessarily have to be drastic stuff. But a solid thought of how to improve skinning in time would benefit lots of people. Making it simpler to edit, adding functions, structuring the code differently or rewriting some of it are things that could help spiking the interest for more skin developer and more fancy and information driven skins.

I would guess that skins are one of the major reasons why programs like XBMC have gotten so popular as a media front end (and often backend). So, it's certainly worth considering spending some time thinking of.

I agree here as well. IMHO the first thing they need to do is get rid of the all the configurable items in options. I like the fact that the menu is separated from the look/skin. That is a feature. However templates, font sizes, info panels etc, should be moved to the skin. (IE anything to do with the look and layout of the screen). That is one of the biggest reasons for skins being so "watered down". In addition, I think only power users can find an use these things. They could also do that by editing a skin... Novices on the other hand have lots of issues, even if they manage to find this stuff. Most users would be happy picking a skin that did all that formatting for them.

The way I see it, there is only pros to moving that stuff to skins.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Cazten on August 24, 2013, 05:00:56 pm
There isn't really a matter of what 5 things theater mode needs.

It's a matter of making it more accessible to make it anything you want. The extreme success of xbmc skinning is that from one skin to the next you can truly think your using an entirely different program.

Think of the stock skin compared to xperience 1080p skin. The entire way you utilize the applications changed. That's the type of flexibility that makes the difference because it's not about what the developer adds, it about how far the imagination of the consumer can take it which is much, much, further.

If I had to list the main things that would make the stock skin better...
1. Items update while IN theater mode.it drove me nuts that items updating in the background would not post to theater view until I exited and re opened.
2. More control of the application. Theater view effectively guts your control. All you can do it browse a movie collection. Considering the power of theater view it is one of the most powerful hi quality engines available right now. Let people make it a reasonable alternative to xbmc, media browser, ect. That means let us control the application from theater view.


I can control every aspect available of xbmc with a arrow key or remote.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Gustovier on September 01, 2013, 11:57:41 am
All,

I've been lurking around this forum for a lil while now just waiting for the product to mature. I am a sage refugee. (I still use it as it does mostly everything I need).  I felt this thread is a great opportunity for JRiver to learn from sage's mistakes. So I'm going to get on a soap box and this is only because I want to see you guys succeed.

1. DO NOT support xbmc skins. Sage implemented this and no one ever used it. Sage already had a robust skinning framework.

2. Eye candy matters. This is your marketing. This is where sage failed. If your product looks great that will increase your user base substantially. Honestly you guys need to more effectively show what your product looks like. The WWW site needs some  work and you need to take advantage of all the tech blogs out there. I still have a tough time understanding what it would "look and feel" like to use the product short of downloading the trial.    You have great functionality and your development cycle seems efficient and upgrades/fixes come often. You just have to get the "packaging and presentation" better. Maybe you should explore taking a development cycle purely focused on look and feel. Challenge your marketing partners to create requirements for your development team.

3. Create a powerful and flexible skinning framework. The goal is to also not make it too complicated. Sages's skinning language while very functional had no kind of parity with any other language I have ever seen so it made it difficult for the user base to contribute.

That's it for now... I have plenty more thoughts but for another day.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: RoderickGI on September 01, 2013, 06:57:46 pm
Quote from: Gustovier on September 01, 2013, 11:57:41 am
2. Eye candy matters. This is your marketing. This is where sage failed. If your product looks great that will increase your user base substantially. Honestly you guys need to more effectively show what your product looks like. The WWW site needs some  work and you need to take advantage of all the tech blogs out there. I still have a tough time understanding what it would "look and feel" like to use the product short of downloading the trial.    You have great functionality and your development cycle seems efficient and upgrades/fixes come often. You just have to get the "packaging and presentation" better. Maybe you should explore taking a development cycle purely focused on look and feel. Challenge your marketing partners to create requirements for your development team.

+10,000,000,000,000

But I am still looking for improvements in TV functionality as well. :D
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: InsaneRC on October 03, 2013, 08:48:59 pm
Are we gonna see any new improvements in Theater View? Skinning? Plugins?

Maybe somethings in the works?
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: FastKayak on October 18, 2013, 02:02:55 pm
Version 19 has had 56 builds.  For a typical MC version that means we nearing 1/3 of the way through the build cycle.  So far there has been little happening in theater view.  Maybe time to put some dev resources on it?

FastKayak / Larry
Title: Re:
Post by: Al ex on October 24, 2013, 04:34:02 pm
+1
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: InsaneRC on October 24, 2013, 09:10:55 pm
+2
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Jimmy McNulty on October 24, 2013, 11:57:27 pm
As user for 4 days that came from XBMC because of WASAPI issues, I will say as a media player device is way better.  I will probably buy it... probably.

Because lets be serious here.  I like nice looking things that are also functional.  And theater view is neither of those things.  Its a PITA.  I've been crawling over all the menu options available, and nothing seems easily customizable.  The menu system is antiquated.  How you select between options feels Window XPish.  I disagree with anyone that says they need the standard view to select things.  Sure its fine that its there, but I have more options and more ability to customize in XBMC, and theres no 'standard view' as we are discussing here.  There should be an option screen inside the theater view... but thats the last of my concern.  Pressing CTRL+1 to change things then going back to Theater view is fine... as long as I can load into theater view and it actually looks good and is much more control friendly and customizable.  The stock theater view and any of the few skins I have seen searching here are *years* behind the standard XBMC, and Aeon Nox puts them to absolute shame.  When using JRiver I kinda wonder... is this much different than using Foobar and VLC with a MadVR running in the background?  Its probably slightly better for reasons I have yet to research... but what I am getting at is, the interface doesnt feel any different.



Example of something that totally perplexes me:
Why do you offer 80 (being facetious here) different display option backgrounds when I am playing music, but not one looks good?  The only acceptable one is the artist background, but it doesnt even function as an acceptable background for my plasma as it doesnt fade out the player buttons totally and the photos only load in the middle, so the sides of the screen dont have pixels changing periodically.  Standard XBMC milkdrop is 1000X times better than any of the numerous options we have here.



As I said, I'll probably buy it.  I really want to.  But as a pay-for option, I'd like to know my 50 bucks and future upgrade dollars will go towards something that has an interface that is acceptable to me at some point.  From reading over the forum and seeing the previous progressions, I have a feeling XBMC is going to catch up to the audio and video features of JRiver before JRiver puts out a great interface.  You guys already put out the best Audio and Video media player I have found (technically speaking).  I think its time to put out something that looks impressive as well.

Hope this comes across as constructive while sorta confused (on my end, as to why it doesnt look better), and not as an attack.  I really like the software for its capabilities.  But as of yet, I cant convince myself its a one stop option for me, and im disappointed by that.


Edit:  Note, I didnt even touch on plugins.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MrHaugen on October 25, 2013, 02:22:38 am
Thanks for the insight Jimmy. I've tried most of the popular media centers out there, and I agree with you on almost every single point. My "problem" is that I've learned of JRiver incredible and unbeatable customization abilities (not speaking of Theater View only) before I tried many other players, so I can simply not go back to other players. I've tried multiple times, and I will probably continue to try every, or every other, year just to see what's out there.

I do not agree however that Theater View is not customizable. It is to some degree. The way you can manipulate the actual data that is represented in theater view are great. But other than that, the skinning mostly consists of changing color, textures and moving a few elements a bit around. There's simply not a skinning framework available with enough possibilities to compete with the meta data usage, eyecandy and theater view functionality of other top players.

Some months ago the developers opened a bit up and more or less asked us our opinion of what we thought needed to be done with skinning (in this thread). So, I believe they are at least looking into some possibilities. I don't know if we can hope for major overhauls here in a short time, but I hope that they will do some increasing improvements and additions to it so we can create things that the masses like. To attract all the regular media users out there. Not just those that are looking for the best in audio and video.

While I do not believe JRiver will ever go away from it's roots of focusing on audio and video, and I don't think I want them to. I hope that they do get their eyes up for how incredibly important theater view functionality, customization and eye candy really is to the masses of people :) People like shiny things! People like to have the info they want, where they want it and at the time they want it. That's just the way it is. There's some nerds that do not care much about such, but I strongly believe that those are the exceptions, not the rule.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JimH on October 25, 2013, 07:31:49 am
Quote from: Jimmy McNulty on October 24, 2013, 11:57:27 pm
...  Pressing CTRL+1 to change things then going back to Theater view is fine... as long as I can ...
Escape gets you back to Standard View (press it a second time).  So does F11.

Use the four arrow keys on a remote or keyboard and the OK button or Enter key to use the On Screen Display.  Up or down to start.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MM_switcher on October 25, 2013, 08:05:27 am
Any navigation on a touchscreen-only device (Samsung XE700 in my case) is a pain. Theater view runs in fullcreen mode as a desktop-app, so I first have to switch to standard view. Then I'm able to do something else on the desktop.

As there is no real good (touch-oriented) audio media player (app) in the Windows store (and JRiver will not change that, as far as I understood), it is the only way to use the MC (currently 18) on that device.

Please don't neglect the touchscreen users!
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: InflatableMouse on October 25, 2013, 08:27:00 am
Quote from: Jimmy McNulty on October 24, 2013, 11:57:27 pm
I have a feeling XBMC is going to catch up to the audio and video features of JRiver before JRiver puts out a great interface.

I don't think that's going to happen, somewhere on the official XBMC forums I read that they had no intention on supporting MadVR for instance. As I see it they actually prefer looks over true playback quality.

Every once in a while I try XBMC again. It's full of bugs and its a complete resource hog on large libraries; I need to kill XBMC and restart the scan to library several times before it gets everything, and it takes hours to complete. Enabling all options for maximum video playback quality makes video stutter and judder and audio drop out, its unwatchable, while MadVR with JRiver runs on high settings no problem on the same system.

And while its true that at first glance skins in XMBC look much better if you like that kind of eye candy (I do, I admit), when you get into them and try to configure them to your liking, one will find that its actually very limited. I don't need 10 different list styles when none give me exactly what I want. In Theater View, I can configure a view with exactly the info I want. XBMC skins don't allow me to select fields and format text the way I want it. And when I found a skin with the audio artists and albums list styles I like, movies and series are not presented in a way I prefer.

It takes time and you can argue about less eye candy in MC, but at least you can better customize what info you'd like in your views.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JimH on October 25, 2013, 10:22:00 am
Quote from: MM_switcher on October 25, 2013, 08:05:27 am
Any navigation on a touchscreen-only device (Samsung XE700 in my case) is a pain. Theater view runs in fullcreen mode as a desktop-app, so I first have to switch to standard view. Then I'm able to do something else on the desktop.
You can set MC to run in Standard View at startup.

MC19 has a new feature that allows sizing of Standard View.  It helps for use with a touchscreen.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84084.0
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Jimmy McNulty on October 25, 2013, 02:37:01 pm
Quote from: JimH on October 25, 2013, 07:31:49 am
Escape gets you back to Standard View (press it a second time).  So does F11.

Use the four arrow keys on a remote or keyboard and the OK button or Enter key to use the On Screen Display.  Up or down to start.

I was hoping you would address the meat of the post, not the only throw away part I probably should have just omitted anyway.

Quote from: MrHaugen on October 25, 2013, 02:22:38 am
Thanks for the insight Jimmy. I've tried most of the popular media centers out there, and I agree with you on almost every single point. My "problem" is that I've learned of JRiver incredible and unbeatable customization abilities (not speaking of Theater View only) before I tried many other players, so I can simply not go back to other players. I've tried multiple times, and I will probably continue to try every, or every other, year just to see what's out there.

I do not agree however that Theater View is not customizable. It is to some degree. The way you can manipulate the actual data that is represented in theater view are great. But other than that, the skinning mostly consists of changing color, textures and moving a few elements a bit around. There's simply not a skinning framework available with enough possibilities to compete with the meta data usage, eyecandy and theater view functionality of other top players.

Some months ago the developers opened a bit up and more or less asked us our opinion of what we thought needed to be done with skinning (in this thread). So, I believe they are at least looking into some possibilities. I don't know if we can hope for major overhauls here in a short time, but I hope that they will do some increasing improvements and additions to it so we can create things that the masses like. To attract all the regular media users out there. Not just those that are looking for the best in audio and video.

While I do not believe JRiver will ever go away from it's roots of focusing on audio and video, and I don't think I want them to. I hope that they do get their eyes up for how incredibly important theater view functionality, customization and eye candy really is to the masses of people :) People like shiny things! People like to have the info they want, where they want it and at the time they want it. That's just the way it is. There's some nerds that do not care much about such, but I strongly believe that those are the exceptions, not the rule.

Thanks for the reply, I hope JRiver still focuses on Audio and Video as well, but since its the best at that, I dont see the harm in making it look good.

I could go point by point here in replying to you and Inflatable Mouse, some I agree with and some I dont, but nothing would be negative.  I appreciate your posts, but it would probably just drag down the thread.  I really think it 100% goes without saying XBMC looks much, much better and is much more usable than when using only the theater view in JRiver.  Thats the over riding point I think should be made.  I realy like JRiver for what it is, but its lack of presentation is noticeable.

I should also note I am pretty into audio and video, but not as much as some of the users here, obviously.  I think I toe the line between a XBMC user and a JRiver user.   
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: JimH on October 25, 2013, 02:43:20 pm
Quote from: Jimmy McNulty on October 25, 2013, 02:37:01 pm
I was hoping you would address the meat of the post, not the only throw away part I probably should have just omitted anyway.
The post came across more as a broad complaint, without much in the way of specifics.

Quote
I like nice looking things that are also functional.  And theater view is neither of those things.  Its a PITA.

Quote
The stock theater view and any of the few skins I have seen searching here are *years* behind the standard XBMC, and Aeon Nox puts them to absolute shame.

Quote
Why do you offer 80 (being facetious here) different display option backgrounds when I am playing music, but not one looks good?  

I don't spend a lot of time trying to sift through opinions to find facts.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: _mulder on October 25, 2013, 04:50:01 pm
At least he took the time to write that he would like some changes made to Theater view and skinning abilities. These are things that were mentioned initially from JRiver when mc19 came out and not much has been said since then. Is it something that is still considered (I am not so sure anymore)?

I would hope that JRiver takes these "complaints" as a proof that we care enough about the purchase that we made and would like MC to only get better and more polished in certain areas that seems to be, IMHO, lacking. I think a lot of excellent suggestions have already been pointed in this thread so far. And yes, I understand that these things don`t get implemented in a weekend...

sincerely,
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: gappie on October 25, 2013, 05:13:01 pm
Quote from: Jimmy McNulty on October 25, 2013, 02:37:01 pm
I was hoping you would address the meat of the post, not the only throw away part I probably should have just omitted anyway.   
that is how it goes.. but with some persistence you can get far... and although I think you can get more out of thv then where you ended, you are right. thv is not skinable, its knitted together to get some nice things working. but/and thv is not just eye candy, standard view is neither. it should be something to get through your library and give you the info you want, preferably with some eye candy and not to many clicks/moves...  now that works great in standard view... :) .

 :)
gab
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: dean70 on October 25, 2013, 05:49:57 pm
here are some themes that make Theater View more user friendly  http://x-plain.blogspot.com.au/p/blue-puzzle-skin.html
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Jimmy McNulty on October 26, 2013, 01:40:16 am

Quote from: _mulder on October 25, 2013, 04:50:01 pm
At least he took the time to write that he would like some changes made to Theater view and skinning abilities. These are things that were mentioned initially from JRiver when mc19 came out and not much has been said since then. Is it something that is still considered (I am not so sure anymore)?

I would hope that JRiver takes these "complaints" as a proof that we care enough about the purchase that we made and would like MC to only get better and more polished in certain areas that seems to be, IMHO, lacking. I think a lot of excellent suggestions have already been pointed in this thread so far. And yes, I understand that these things don`t get implemented in a weekend...

sincerely,

Appreciate it.  I really do like the product.  I am no programmer, so I dont know the back end or the constraints because of them.  But as much as I like the audio and video processing, its not a complete front end for a media player as it sits.  IMHO!

Quote from: gappie on October 25, 2013, 05:13:01 pm
that is how it goes.. but with some persistence you can get far... and although I think you can get more out of Theater View then where you ended, you are right. Theater View is not skinable, its knitted together to get some nice things working. but/and Theater View is not just eye candy, standard view is neither. it should be something to get through your library and give you the info you want, preferably with some eye candy and not to many clicks/moves...  now that works great in standard view... :) .

 :)
gab
I concur, I can dig in further and get a little more out of it... but I have done enough to realize the front end cant look as good/be as accessible as I would prefer.

I can get to my library many ways.  I have standalone options that work just as well as JRiver.  Thats not the point of a *Media Center*.

Quote from: dean70 on October 25, 2013, 05:49:57 pm
here are some themes that make Theater View more user friendly  http://x-plain.blogspot.com.au/p/blue-puzzle-skin.html

Thanks, I will add these.  Not really as in depth as I am looking for, but the improvement is welcome.  Appreciate it.  :)
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: preproman on October 26, 2013, 11:43:08 am
Quote from: Jimmy McNulty on October 24, 2013, 11:57:27 pm
As user for 4 days that came from XBMC because of WASAPI issues, I will say as a media player device is way better.  I will probably buy it... probably.

Because lets be serious here.  I like nice looking things that are also functional.  And theater view is neither of those things.  Its a PITA.  I've been crawling over all the menu options available, and nothing seems easily customizable.  The menu system is antiquated.  How you select between options feels Window XPish.  I disagree with anyone that says they need the standard view to select things.  Sure its fine that its there, but I have more options and more ability to customize in XBMC, and theres no 'standard view' as we are discussing here.  There should be an option screen inside the theater view... but thats the last of my concern.  Pressing CTRL+1 to change things then going back to Theater view is fine... as long as I can load into theater view and it actually looks good and is much more control friendly and customizable.  The stock theater view and any of the few skins I have seen searching here are *years* behind the standard XBMC, and Aeon Nox puts them to absolute shame.  When using JRiver I kinda wonder... is this much different than using Foobar and VLC with a MadVR running in the background?  Its probably slightly better for reasons I have yet to research... but what I am getting at is, the interface doesnt feel any different.



Example of something that totally perplexes me:
Why do you offer 80 (being facetious here) different display option backgrounds when I am playing music, but not one looks good?  The only acceptable one is the artist background, but it doesnt even function as an acceptable background for my plasma as it doesnt fade out the player buttons totally and the photos only load in the middle, so the sides of the screen dont have pixels changing periodically.  Standard XBMC milkdrop is 1000X times better than any of the numerous options we have here.



As I said, I'll probably buy it.  I really want to.  But as a pay-for option, I'd like to know my 50 bucks and future upgrade dollars will go towards something that has an interface that is acceptable to me at some point.  From reading over the forum and seeing the previous progressions, I have a feeling XBMC is going to catch up to the audio and video features of JRiver before JRiver puts out a great interface.  You guys already put out the best Audio and Video media player I have found (technically speaking).  I think its time to put out something that looks impressive as well.

Hope this comes across as constructive while sorta confused (on my end, as to why it doesnt look better), and not as an attack.  I really like the software for its capabilities.  But as of yet, I cant convince myself its a one stop option for me, and im disappointed by that.


Edit:  Note, I didnt even touch on plugins.

I agree 100% with this post.  Maybe in MC 20 JRiver can really concentrate on skinning in Theather View.  That will just about make this package complete.  IMO.
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: MM_switcher on October 28, 2013, 04:49:14 am
Quote from: dean70 on October 25, 2013, 05:49:57 pm
here are some themes that make Theater View more user friendly  http://x-plain.blogspot.com.au/p/blue-puzzle-skin.html

That's extremely nice! What must I change to be able to use that as a touch-version, with the menu items on the right side of the screen?
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Hendrik on October 28, 2013, 05:27:49 am
Split Theater View Usability (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84749.0) discussion
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: forbigd on December 11, 2013, 06:45:09 am
+1 :)

I asked for this a few days back and not one person responded.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=85842.0

I have to use three different pieces of software, because I can't figure out how to make MC do what I want. MC for Music only, XBMC for Video like tv and movies, and I still search for an adequate Video Music Jukebox for my friends.

I really like MC and would use it for everything, but it misses the most important things of each.
TV? Mark shows watched? MC seems to lose track of marked TV making us look and decide "Didn't we see this"? Where XBMC does it fine. I have yet to figure out a way for MC to mark shows watched intelligently. I have an expression that marks it with a checkbox at 96%. But if we stop in the credits it isn't quite at 96 percent so it shows as not completed. And I need a skin, theater or otherwise, that has a big pick list for videos and a Now playing on the same screen that removes songs played to make the list simpler. I can almost do it in Standard View, but then no one uses it because it looks so complicated. In fact the joke around the pool room is... "Oh you broke the jukebox", as one guy will accidentally add all songs by one artist and shuffles them, ruining the playlist. I need to be ready to fix it when it gets ruined by the unwashed. Many times folks can't find what they are looking for as the "selection hasn't been reset from the last guy" So they can't find their artist because it isn't in the previous guys selection.

I guess MC is just too complicated for the casual user. I really like it, but my family and friends do not. One guy refuses to try and just navigates with explorer and plays it in media player.
Thanks for listening....

So back on topic, is there any way to have a now playing window appear in theater view at the same time as the pick list? Or shall I keep looking for something else? Jukebox Jockey and Media Monkey work pretty well for what I want, but don't actually play the video as well as MC. I can't win.  :)

Don

Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: Ekpen on December 11, 2013, 09:04:39 am
Greetings:

"Playing Now" , when it is on, you can use "list" or "info" . is this what you want?

I use "list" option to list the tracks.
Ekpen
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: connersw on December 11, 2013, 10:47:38 am
forbigd:  I share your frustration that there is a lot that could be done to improve Theater View in both function and appearance.  It seams like squeaky wheels get grease though, and there has been some squawking.  I know Matt and Hendrik are listening so I am hopeful that changes will be coming.  Hendrik has already made changes to make Number of Plays editable, and he is looking at adding it to Theater View with a mark as watched/not watched option.  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84964.msg586441#msg586441  So hopefully that will help with your video issues.

Regarding the Jukebox issue, have you tried using Split View with the right being Playing Now and the left being your selection options?  You can even hide the tree now to clean it up.  It's not as pretty as some of the other software you mentioned, nor does it solve the remove from playing now issue, but it might get you closer to what you are after.   You can even lock View 2 on the right so they can look at what is Now Playing, but not be able to mess with it.  Let me know if you'd like a screen shot of what I'm talking about. 
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: forbigd on December 12, 2013, 06:58:18 am
Connorsw:

Thanks, That is what we do now. We have the tree, and two Views, split and locked. Folks can click or drag tunes to the now playing view, add, reorganize, etc. I even try to lock View 2 so clicking on the tree won't change it from Now Playing. Every once in a while though it decides to lock View one, like the views switched places. That of course makes it unusable for the n00bs. I have to go unlock the view, and move the lock back to the right hand view "Playing Now". But that doesn't happen often.
What does happen is folks look at the view (details) and it looks like an xls to them and they can't figure out what to do. We get folks that have never seen the jukebox before, and they need a class to show them how to pick an artist, album, and then track. On the other hand, I love the configurability, and have no problem using a complicated standard view. I will try another's suggestion to use Party Mode, to keep them from messing with the setup. That seems to have no effect, but I will try again. Interestingly, the idea of hiding the tree makes it worse. When you hide the tree, don't you also hide the top panel showing what is playing? If you do that folks have to look at the Now Playing list to see what track is playing. But since the list does not delete the ones played, they have to look at Now Playing, and see if they can find the color shift of the one playing, or the little arrow pointing at it. It usually is somewhere in the middle of the list of Now Playing. If it would remove played songs, they could just look at the top of the list. So I need to keep the tree so we can see what song is playing easily. It doesn't have to be pretty, just functional. It doesn't have to be theater view, standard would work too. Another issue is that these days everyone has a tablet or phone and when they see a jukebox like device they go for the touchscreen. Since we do have a touchscreen for the monitor, we have a great deal of problems with folks moving files, or the dreaded popup "Do you want to enable pane tagging", when someone tries to use the touchscreen. They come and get me so I can say "No we don't want pane tagging". Standard View with a touchscreen is a disaster. No matter what skin you use, the scroll bars are not wide enough to get with a finger and you end up dragging tunes around the desktop. I have used Noire skin and made it bigger and upped the fonts, I even run the desktop at 1280x1024 to try to get Standard view to have bigger scroll bars. Still problematic with folks missing the scroll bar with their finger. And most of the good data of Standard view has to be thrown away to try to keep it big enough so folks don't have to sit at the PC. They can stand and use the mouse. Just not the touchscreen. If I try Obsidian touch Skin, the touch works great, and you can find what you want, but you can't drag it to the playlist, nor can you see that is playing while you are picking.

As far as marking a show in Theater View as watched, I have that mostly solved. A fine soul here shared an expression I modified a bit and it works great. You get a checkmark next to the file name if it has been watched more than 95% of the way. Then I make sure the view we pick from does not show files with checkmarks in that field. I actually use the checkmark as the item I look for. If it has a check, then it has been watched. In fact the checkmarks are a little dimmer as you watch the show being fully bright at 90+ percent.

Here it is

ifelse(isequal(watched(1), 2),
   regex(Watched(0), /#(\d+)%#/, -1)/
   if(isrange([R1], 5-95), [R1]%, ✔))


So how do you mark a show watched without actually watching it? I created a new field called watched. The only choices are "w" and nothing. If I put a w in the field, the file won't show in either Standard or Theater. So if I need to mark a whole season watched, I just highlight them, TAG, and put a w in the field.

Sorry to go on and on. I really appreciate any help you all can provide.

Don
Title: Re: Theater View and Skins
Post by: forbigd on December 12, 2013, 07:04:01 am
Ekpen,

I don't know what you mean by Use list or info. A keypress?

Thanks, Don