INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 20 for Windows => Topic started by: flac.rules on November 03, 2014, 02:25:40 am
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When an operation takes a long time, please implement some kind of progress bar or "working on it", or something, instead of the whole program seemingly hanging up. (I have no clue if it takes less than an hour)
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I split your request because your request is quite generalized, and I strongly suspect that there is something else going on. I've seen other posts from you about hangs as well, so I thought it was worth discussing.
To be clear: MC makes extensive use of multithreading and background worker processes. There are very few instances in MC where the application hangs because it is doing something that is expected to take a long time. There are a couple individual exceptions I can think of (where things should be moved to a background thread with a progress bar in the Action Window). However, you didn't explain specifically what instances cause these hangs, which leads me to believe you have something else going on.
So... Can you explain the types of situations where you are experiencing these hangs? I'm not trying to deflect, but... What Jim was looking for in that other thread is, for example:
MC hangs when you use drag-drop from a file listing to copy files to Windows Explorer (or the Finder), while the copy process completes. It would be better if this operation was done in a background thread so that MC itself can remain responsive.
(In fact, I'll add that to the thread, because it is a good one.)
But generic "it hangs a lot an you should make it not do that" isn't really going to help, and the issue might be something with your system or settings specifically anyway. Understand what I mean?
So... Can you give us specific examples of when MC hangs? If they are things others can reproduce from individual, repeatable actions, then we can post suggestions to fix those to the Too Easy thread. If not, I can probably help you get some of them sorted out. If you haven't read this:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Guide
I wrote that specifically to collect a bunch of the knowledge I've gained over the years in combating small hangs and non-responsiveness in MC. I can guarantee, if things are working correctly, MC does not hang often. If it is for you a lot, seemingly randomly, then something else is going on with your system.
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To be clear: MC makes extensive use of multithreading and background worker processes. There are very few instances in MC where the application hangs because it is doing something that is expected to take a long time. There are a couple individual exceptions I can think of (where things should be moved to a background thread with a progress bar in the Action Window)
It happens on a regular basis for me every time I either insert a new optical disc, or try to play a disc which has spun down.
The former can sometimes be frozen for several minutes at a time while it "scans" the disc.
It's considerably worse if I'm already ripping a disc in MakeMKV, and insert or try to access a disc in another drive at the same time.
If my internet connection is busy/slow, trying to download a video off YouTube freezes the program for maybe a minute until the download prompt appears.
Views using IsEmpty() often take a very long time to evaluate, with no way to back out or cancel until it runs.
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To clarify, my request was not too fix all instances which causes a hangup, my request was to make the program behave differently when this instances occur. I don't know if it is easy, as I am not a programmer, but when the program uses 100% CPU and the UI does nothing, the program should detect it, and somehow show that it is in fact working on something, whatever the root cause of the problem is.
As for my specific problems, what causes me most problems seems to be that MC in some ways poorly handles the Client-server-setup when it comes to performance. The firewalls are open, AV does not check MC and the network is fast, yet some operations are slow. I think it is a problem with JRMCs handling of stuff, because if i just map up the drive, and add files locally, some of these problems disappear, even though the network operates at the same speed (1000 Mbps).
I am actually compiling a list of these things after the last thread, to give some specific examples.
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It happens on a regular basis for me every time I either insert a new optical disc, or try to play a disc which has spun down.
The former can sometimes be frozen for several minutes at a time while it "scans" the disc.
It's considerably worse if I'm already ripping a disc in MakeMKV, and insert or try to access a disc in another drive at the same time.
If my internet connection is busy/slow, trying to download a video off YouTube freezes the program for maybe a minute until the download prompt appears.
Views using IsEmpty() often take a very long time to evaluate, with no way to back out or cancel until it runs.
+1; pretty much anytime MC is doing disk i/o/network access and it takes slightly longer than expected I get a hang that makes MC nonresponsive. That includes:
1) New optical disk inserted / optical disk spin up.
2) Copying files, especially when copying to network drives. This is true for me even when using MC's rename/copy tool if remote drives are involved.
3) Situations where an MC client is playing and the Wi-Fi is interrupted (MC will show buffering, but any attempt to interact with MC causes MC to hang for minutes or sometimes indefinitely).
4) And certain features that require internet access: trying to get artist images from last.fm for example, always pops up a modal dialog that hangs MC if I'm doing more than two or three artists at a time.
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It happens on a regular basis for me every time I either insert a new optical disc, or try to play a disc which has spun down.
The former can sometimes be frozen for several minutes at a time while it "scans" the disc.
This is a limitation of Windows, unfortunately. The whole filesystem of Windows locks in these instances. It applies to disconnected Network volumes as well, and all sorts of other "disk access" issues to sleeping disks.
Windows is less brain-dead about it than OSX (where the whole filesystem is single-threaded), but it is still pretty brain-dead.
If my internet connection is busy/slow, trying to download a video off YouTube freezes the program for maybe a minute until the download prompt appears.
Yep, this could be better, I think.
Views using IsEmpty() often take a very long time to evaluate, with no way to back out or cancel until it runs.
The View model isn't designed to be cancelled. You may want to re-evaluate your expression, or further filter the list before doing the "expensive" calculation. I have a couple views that are slow to load (my All Media views and the ones that do IsMissing() for example) but I try very hard to not use complex, expensive expressions in everyday views. You can tune this, in other words.
Filters are evaluated in order.
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To clarify, my request was not too fix all instances which causes a hangup, my request was to make the program behave differently when this instances occur. I don't know if it is easy, as I am not a programmer, but when the program uses 100% CPU and the UI does nothing
The instances where this happens (and it actually pegs the CPU) should be incredibly rare.
That is a strong indicator that something odd is going on with your system, and in all likelihood, it is something covered in my Troubleshooting Guide.
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3) Situations where an MC client is playing and the Wi-Fi is interrupted (MC will show buffering, but any attempt to interact with MC causes MC to hang for minutes or sometimes indefinitely).
I agree on this. It isn't specific to WiFi or anything else though.
MC could have much better feedback and responsiveness when buffering content from a Library Server.
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This is a limitation of Windows, unfortunately. The whole filesystem of Windows locks in these instances. It applies to disconnected Network volumes as well, and all sorts of other "disk access" issues to sleeping disks.
OK, but is it not possible for Media Center to run I/O operations in a separate process/thread so that it doesn't lock the rest of the program with it?
(I'm sure it's just that easy! ;))
Even if you still couldn't interact with the program, preventing Windows from graying the app window and suggesting that it's frozen would be a big improvement.
I've often had MC in a situation where it has frozen like this, but I still had a video playing in a split pane which was fine until Windows decided to gray the app window because it appeared to be frozen.
The View model isn't designed to be cancelled. You may want to re-evaluate your expression, or further filter the list before doing the "expensive" calculation. I have a couple views that are slow to load (my All Media views and the ones that do IsMissing() for example) but I try very hard to not use complex, expensive expressions in everyday views. You can tune this, in other words.
It's just frustrating if I open the wrong view by mistake. It's only certain maintenance views which normally use this expression.
It's probably a lot more frustrating as well since I use a split view, and could be dealing with things in the other pane while it checked to see if all the files on all my drives are there, if it didn't freeze the program when doing it.
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In my own programming now, when I write say a thread to do something that could hang, I also try to write a second "heartbeat" thread class that monitors the first thread, and if it detects no "pulse" in the first thread, it tries to unload the first thread. For example if the first thread hangs on an Http socket call for more than a certain time, then the heartbeat thread will kill the socket and force the first thread to terminate.
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OK, but is it not possible for Media Center to run I/O operations in a separate process/thread so that it doesn't lock the rest of the program with it?
(I'm sure it's just that easy! ;))
Even if you still couldn't interact with the program, preventing Windows from graying the app window and suggesting that it's frozen would be a big improvement.
I've often had MC in a situation where it has frozen like this, but I still had a video playing in a split pane which was fine until Windows decided to gray the app window because it appeared to be frozen.
Unfortunately, not. The issue is that it is Windows Explorer that is frozen, not MC, but Windows Explorer is the shell, so when it is frozen, everything that depends on disk is frozen. Windows does not provide the interrupts needed to "escape" from this state when dealing with disk latency. That's why basically every application you've ever used suffers from these same kinds of issues.
There might be some small things they could do around the edges to improve it, but the fundamental issue is with Windows.
As I said... It could be worse. The OSX filesystem threading is a disaster.
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I also try to write a second "heartbeat" thread class that monitors the first thread, and if it detects no "pulse" in the first thread, it tries to unload the first thread.
MC uses a message pump multithreaded design, which is pretty much SOP for multi-threaded applications. Matt has discussed this before on the forum.
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I should note, if you are having issues with this kind of problem, and it seems particularly tied to disk performance, and you haven't read this entire wiki article, you are doing yourself a great disservice:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Network_and_Slow_Storage
In particular, this can make a huge difference:
Options > Tree & View > Advanced > Display missing file image in lists: Disable
You may also want to experiment with disabling sleeping on your main Media Drives. This is also a common cause of hangs in all applications (spinning up disks hangs the calling application). And, unless you commonly go full days without spinning up those disks even once, the power advantage to parking them is going to be very limited, and the repeated parking/spin-up may shorten the lifespan of your drives.
Drive sleeping is a decent feature on Laptops where every watt-hour counts (well, actually, you should just get rid of spinning disks on Laptops), but it usually doesn't make much sense on a desktop/server machine that you use every day.
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The instances where this happens (and it actually pegs the CPU) should be incredibly rare.
That is a strong indicator that something odd is going on with your system, and in all likelihood, it is something covered in my Troubleshooting Guide.
Ok, skip the 100% CPU part then, when the UI hangs completly, the program should behave differently, its not user friendly, and other programs very seldom have the same problem.
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623 and others,
i've have a similar very frustrating experience with JRiver hanging constantly for some period of time (with similar sort of experience). on the weekend i had OTA TV playing on one laptop via JRiver for hours with no problem but this instance does not serve any other computer. the TV was via HDHR (networked) so it got me to thinking, i then unhooked my primary HTPC with JRiver (media server) from my network and used my HP950Q tuner (direct to the PC) and i have been watching TV perfectly now for hours... no hanging no spinning wheel...hmmmm.. i will later be testing a video, some songs, etc., then rehooking the network but disabling media server capability o see what happens ( i suspect i will get perfect playback)...
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Here is an example of a concrete situation of what gives me trouble:
Server A: Has a MC 20 library server running, no AV, firewall open, 500 MB/s disk-array and gigabit net.
Server B: Has a MC 20 client, connected to server A, no A, firewall open, gigabit net, 4 sound-cards which is sent to my speakers in different rooms in the house.
Both have Windows server 2012 R2.
If i run audio on server B, it can behave normally, and often will in the start of playback, most of the time it runs at 25% CPU (it should be less than 1%) on a quad core xenon, and it will quite frequently hang up the UI totally, when it does, audio keeps playing normally, until the song ends, and if the UI still isn't responding, there will be no sound for up to a minute, when the program reacts again, and jumps to the next song.
Capture 1 shows the UI hanging up, and the CPU usage, capture 2 is the situation a couple of minutes later when the program has recovered. Capture 3 is the network traffic, which is low, with a slight peak when the song is changing.
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I notice you're running Windows Server. Are you also modifying the OS with someone's special tweaks?
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I notice you're running Windows Server. Are you also modifying the OS with someone's special tweaks?
No, server B is as close to a vanilla install as you can get, it only has a couple of Oses that are viritualized (not running at the moment of the test), and MC installed, and basically nothing else. Server A doesn't have any special tweaks either, just regular server 2012 R2 essentials.
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I'm curious what process is using up 25%. Because that is basically one thread maxing out a core. You didn't say specifically if that was MC or not.
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It is MC that uses the CPU. The load is pretty evenly distributed between cores, no single core is maxed out.
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You may also want to experiment with disabling sleeping on your main Media Drives.
In some cases, I use USB External Hard Drives, and the usual methods don't work for that. I'd love to find some method that works for all of those.
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It is MC that uses the CPU. The load is pretty evenly distributed between cores, no single core is maxed out.
Don't trust the task manager, even a simple task that is not multi-threaded and using 100% of one core will not show up as such in the task manager. Its deceitful!
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Don't trust the task manager, even a simple task that is not multi-threaded and using 100% of one core will not show up as such in the task manager. Its deceitful!
Ok, maybe the task manager lies about how the different cores are being loaded, I don't know, the problem is still there though.
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Don't trust the task manager, even a simple task that is not multi-threaded and using 100% of one core will not show up as such in the task manager. Its deceitful!
I know Hendrik knows this but for other that may not:
In addition just because "MC is using 25%" does not mean it's the cause of the 25%. Every program relies on the OS for many functions and if any of the them max out, so does the use for the program that called them. And a majority of the time time the "bug" is located it is with an underlying piece of hardware or it's driver. The trick is narrowing down the setup so we can figure out what exactly is causing the issue. Not that 25% is necessarily unusual by any means depending on what settings you have enabled etc. But it seems to me in your case something is maxing out a core as it "continues to play" which is on another thread while the UI thread is hung. So after it finished you can't do anything.
MC is multithreaded and doesn't often do blocking work on the UI thread (there are some exceptions to this). So when something hangs, it is usually due to a call to the OS that the UI is waiting on. Something that normally isn't blocking, but is in the case of this particular system. In most cases I've seen it happens to be drivers or hardware issues. So anything you can provide that might point to the culprit would help.
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Today, I was doing some cleanup work, which involved rename, move, copy files, and update tags from library.
If you run update tags from library on a couple thousand files, mc doesn't 'freeze' but it really runs slow, and several 'functions' don't work at all. ctl-a (select all), for example doesn't work while it's updating in the background. You can click edit, select all, but ctl-a doesn't work.
Anyway, while update is running, or files are being renamed, MC just runs really slow. Plus, the dialog showing the update tags gets 'hidden' behind MC, so you can't even see it's progress, and if you're not aware of the issue, it's really frustrating because you just don't know what's going on. There should at least be a progress dialog, preferably with the option to pause and/or cancel the task(s).
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I know Hendrik knows this but for other that may not:
In addition just because "MC is using 25%" does not mean it's the cause of the 25%. Every program relies on the OS for many functions and if any of the them max out, so does the use for the program that called them. And a majority of the time time the "bug" is located it is with an underlying piece of hardware or it's driver. The trick is narrowing down the setup so we can figure out what exactly is causing the issue. Not that 25% is necessarily unusual by any means depending on what settings you have enabled etc. But it seems to me in your case something is maxing out a core as it "continues to play" which is on another thread while the UI thread is hung. So after it finished you can't do anything.
MC is multithreaded and doesn't often do blocking work on the UI thread (there are some exceptions to this). So when something hangs, it is usually due to a call to the OS that the UI is waiting on. Something that normally isn't blocking, but is in the case of this particular system. In most cases I've seen it happens to be drivers or hardware issues. So anything you can provide that might point to the culprit would help.
How much more narrowing is needed? I can give more info if necessary, but as stated, the system is as close to a vanilla install as possible (it is a regular xeon og a regular server mobo, nothing extra except the soundcards). At the moment there is basically no other programs than MC installed. (the single other program installed is plextools, the problem was there before that, and it is not even running), the OS is out of the box. And when reading around in the forums, it seems like having some issues with the server-client setup is not unique. I am not saying this has to be a MC-problem, but I think it warrants some more checking out then "something other than MC is the problem"
And 25% for just playing on a modern quad-core should be unusual almost no matter what.
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THis is a screenshot from the "analyse wait chain"-function in the task manager. However it should be noted that there are 6-7 threads in that list no matter what, even just after starting the program, and nothing playing.
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Ok, Lets clear things up a bit. People here want to help you. They have explained the inner workings of MC and the underlying OS in terms of hangs etc to help sort that out. We have also pointed out certain facts (such as %cpu used) that you keep disagreeing with. That is your prerogative. However we have stated some facts for you to help to you sort out the "red herrings" - having to keep switching to explaining why doesn't fix your issue. You'll note that I said "does not necessarily" mean something unusual which means it may or may not be a symptom. So from here on out can we please keep to relaying relevant facts to us instead of arguing the validity of what's been said? It will make things go much faster and most likely will result in more people willing to help with your problem. We are trying to help you, not "deflect blame" from MC. Keep an open mind about what we are saying and where to look for the problem and you'll be much more likely to find the answer.
That said, lets also start from square one - things are too spread out over too many messages and threads. Can you please describe your setup (including brands) of the hardware in question, MC's setup on both computers, the network involved, and exactly how you reproduce the issue. I'm a little unclear about if this is happening on the client or the server for example.
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Ok, Lets clear things up a bit. People here want to help you. They have explained the inner workings of MC and the underlying OS in terms of hangs etc to help sort that out. We have also pointed out certain facts (such as %cpu used) that you keep disagreeing with. That is your prerogative. However we have stated some facts for you to help to you sort out the "red herrings" - having to keep switching to explaining why doesn't fix your issue. You'll note that I said "does not necessarily" mean something unusual which means it may or may not be a symptom. So from here on out can we please keep to relaying relevant facts to us instead of arguing the validity of what's been said? It will make things go much faster and most likely will result in more people willing to help with your problem. We are trying to help you, not "deflect blame" from MC. Keep an open mind about what we are saying and where to look for the problem and you'll be much more likely to find the answer.
That said, lets also start from square one - things are too spread out over too many messages and threads. Can you please describe your setup (including brands) of the hardware in question, MC's setup on both computers, the network involved, and exactly how you reproduce the issue. I'm a little unclear about if this is happening on the client or the server for example.
Lets, it is nice people are willing to help, but it does from my perspective look like people are trying to deflect blame. Why? because of the fact that "the task manager might be showing the wrong info", "something else might be causing the high CPU", is nice info and all, but as long as these statements are just stated without any follow-up questions, It doesn't (on the surface) look like it is in the interest of finding the root cause. Furthermore, I haven't "kept disagreeing" with much at all, and I have continuously answered all questions asked, and tried to do relevant research and post more info.
I am sure you are trying to help me, and that is appreciated, look the above section as an explanation of how the thread so far has looked from my perspective, that might explain my reaction, not an attack .I know misunderstandings can occur when trying to put things in writing, and I am sure I also could be better when it comes to this, and I actually do appreciate the help.
The setup is the following
Server A: Has a MC 20 library server running, no AV, firewall open, 500 MB/s disk-array and gigabit net. It has Xenon CPU and an Intel C224 Server board
Server B: Has a MC 20 client, connected to server A, no A, firewall open, gigabit net, 4 sound-cards which is sent to my speakers in different rooms in the house. It has a Xenon CPU, and a intel C224 server board
Both have Windows server 2012 R2 and uses the onboad NICs. Both have very little installed in terms of other programs, however server A also works as a regular file-server.
I don't remember the exact name of the hardware, I am going to check it out when i get back home.
The problem is on Server B, that is the client.
The problem seems to pop up any time I play anything from the library server (Server A), for some time (a couple of songs maybe). The CPU usage pops up to around 25% (pretty evenly distributed according to task manager). This does not happen if i play local files, but the high CPU load can continue for some time if it starts because of playing files from the library server, and I then switch over to local files. Which soundcard that is used seems not to be relevant (I have tried with two, I can check the other two) Neither does which of the two network ports are used. Please note the files played from the library server is NOT mapped up with file sharing on the Client. Server A is running a domain, which other computers on the network are joined too.
Let me know if any other info can be interesting, seeing as the setup is software-wise pretty simple, but still has a lot of "redundancy" in hardware, it should be pretty easy to check out a few things.
A final thing, both of the computer are almost always running remote desktop, as this is how I control them.
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Two thoughts/suggestions:
1) Do you have "play files from memory" enabled under Audio? If so, try disabling it. In my experience, it can lead to suboptimal results when used over a network (it's given me hangs and CPU spikes in the past, and network playback works much better for me when it's disabled).
2) Is it possible that MC is analyzing audio or building thumbnails in the background? MC can take a while to analyze files in the background, and while that's going on I see 25% CPU usage until all files are analyzed. With a large library that process could take days (it took me about a day and a half to two days to reanalyze about 60K files), but it only runs while MC is on and happens in the background. If you look under reporter you can see if either process is running in the background and whether your library is fully analyzed/thumbnails are fully built. One thing to note is that while audio analysis only generally needs to happen once per file, thumbnail building happens on each MC instance for each file. I've never seen either one of those hang the UI, mind you, but both are a possible cause of elevated CPU levels even on a client.
These may not be your issues, but both are reasons I've seen elevated CPU usage for prolonged periods in the past, and play files from memory has definitely given me hangs.
P.S.- Also, have you made sure to set your client options and file access so that there's no transcoding happening? That shouldn't necessarily create load on your client, but can make a server/client setup more sensitive to connectivity issues, so is worth checking just to rule things out.
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Lets, it is nice people are willing to help, but it does from my perspective look like people are trying to deflect blame.
Fair enough, I suspected that was what you might be thinking which is why I said what I did. I can understand how it could seem like that to you. However keep this in mind: many of the people responding to this thread have successfully fixed issues like this in the past, and the cause was almost always not MC. Note that I said not always. There have been a few times where certain things were changed after finding the underlying cause. Some issues were caused by MC, and for some MC could be improved by changing things. But before that ever happened they ran down every other possibility first and narrowed things down considerably. To fix an issue we have to find the exact reproducible cause. Since this is not happening to everyone, we have to figure it out what is causing it in your particular case. Also consider that most people responding don't work for JRiver. Their only concern is seeing another user happy.
So enough about that. It seems to me that this is network related then. If local playback works fine. I have a couple of questions:
Can you give some detailed information about your network? IE the hardware involved, subnets used, what else might be on the network? Also what is going on on the server when a hang happens? Anything unusual there?
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Two thoughts/suggestions:
1) Do you have "play files from memory" enabled under Audio? If so, try disabling it. In my experience, it can lead to suboptimal results when used over a network (it's given me hangs and CPU spikes in the past, and network playback works much better for me when it's disabled).
2) Is it possible that MC is analyzing audio or building thumbnails in the background? MC can take a while to analyze files in the background, and while that's going on I see 25% CPU usage until all files are analyzed. With a large library that process could take days (it took me about a day and a half to two days to reanalyze about 60K files), but it only runs while MC is on and happens in the background. If you look under reporter you can see if either process is running in the background and whether your library is fully analyzed/thumbnails are fully built. One thing to note is that while audio analysis only generally needs to happen once per file, thumbnail building happens on each MC instance for each file. I've never seen either one of those hang the UI, mind you, but both are a possible cause of elevated CPU levels even on a client.
These may not be your issues, but both are reasons I've seen elevated CPU usage for prolonged periods in the past, and play files from memory has definitely given me hangs.
P.S.- Also, have you made sure to set your client options and file access so that there's no transcoding happening? That shouldn't necessarily create load on your client, but can make a server/client setup more sensitive to connectivity issues, so is worth checking just to rule things out.
1) Play from memory is not enabled.
2) I don't think thats the problem(?) it has been several weeks since i imported audio, and I think the analyzing is happening on the server anyhow?
PS: I think so, i have set no transcoding under the media network-client options, the file access settings you are talking about, where are they?
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1) Play from memory is not enabled.
2) I don't think thats the problem(?) it has been several weeks since i imported audio, and I think the analyzing is happening on the server anyhow?
Analyzing can happen either place, it just depends on the auto-import settings. One thing to try is to turn off auto-import on the client (it's not needed on a pure client as clients can't import anyway, and can cause trouble sometimes).
Again, the easy way to rule this out is to look under "Reporter" in the "Services & Plugins" menu tree. It will show any background processes running.
PS: I think so, i have set no transcoding under the media network-client options, the file access settings you are talking about, where are they?
You want to make sure that your client PC has direct access to the actual media files on the server and that the filepath to the files on the client is the same as on the server. For example, if your files are in a directory called X:/Audio on the server, you want to a) share that drive or directory over the network and then b) either map the share to drive X: on the client so the relative path is the same, or use UNC paths in the library database.
Then, in MC, under media network/client options make sure the option to "play a local copy" is checked.
If you don't do this, then the MC library server instance is relied on to serve and/or transcode files at all times, which can lead to suboptimal network results. If your client has direct access to the files, it just plays the files directly; in that case the library server is serving only the library, not the media files themselves.
EDIT: reading above it looks like you aren't using UNC paths or mapped drives on this specific computer; it will probably help the situation if you do.
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Fair enough, I suspected that was what you might be thinking which is why I said what I did. I can understand how it could seem like that to you. However keep this in mind: many of the people responding to this thread have successfully fixed issues like this in the past, and the cause was almost always not MC. Note that I said not always. There have been a few times where certain things were changed after finding the underlying cause. Some issues were caused by MC, and for some MC could be improved by changing things. But before that ever happened they ran down every other possibility first and narrowed things down considerably. To fix an issue we have to find the exact reproducible cause. Since this is not happening to everyone, we have to figure it out what is causing it in your particular case. Also consider that most people responding don't work for JRiver. Their only concern is seeing another user happy.
So enough about that. It seems to me that this is network related then. If local playback works fine. I have a couple of questions:
Can you give some detailed information about your network? IE the hardware involved, subnets used, what else might be on the network? Also what is going on on the server when a hang happens? Anything unusual there?
My network only has one subnet, I have a HP 1810 managed gigabit switch, both servers are directly connected to this switch. I have a RT66U router for network access, but traffic should go directly through the switch with my setup. I have 3 other computers connected to the media server. I don't have the same problem on them, but they have the drives mapped up.
The server seems to be chugging along at around 0% load, so it seems to make no difference server-side.
Could it be some kind of domain-related problem? Server 2012 R2 forces computers connected to it to join a domain.
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If you're having an MC hang, please use Logging and post the results here. Thanks.
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Could it be some kind of domain-related problem? Server 2012 R2 forces computers connected to it to join a domain.
Domain shouldn't really affect things network wise. However using server OS's isn't of the norm from MC. I know some users had issues with Windows Home Server in the past. I think those issues were all resolved or were related to some oddball things only specific to WHS.
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If you're having an MC hang, please use Logging and post the results here. Thanks.
To clarify, it doesn't hang permantly, it "springs to life", after a minute or two. I don't know how this affects logging, but i will try to log and see what it gives.
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try to keep track of the times when it "hangs" then.
Crazy question but all your drivers especially network card drivers are the latest available from the manufacturer of the part? For example even if it's a Dell computer you get the driver from ATI for video card etc?
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To clarify, it doesn't hang permantly, it "springs to life", after a minute or two. I don't know how this affects logging, but i will try to log and see what it gives.
That's exactly the type of logs that can be helpful.
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Fair enough, I suspected that was what you might be thinking which is why I said what I did. I can understand how it could seem like that to you. However keep this in mind: many of the people responding to this thread have successfully fixed issues like this in the past, and the cause was almost always not MC.
Absolutely everything gvanbrunt said in this thread gets a +1 from me.
I do not see this behavior. I have seen this behavior on some systems in the past, and have resolved it. For me, personally, it was either:
* Anti-Virus
* Drivers (in my case, network drivers and disk drivers)
Computers are a complex set of code stacked on one another and the software at the "top" often gets the "blame" for things going on underneath. That doesn't mean it couldn't be MC's fault. It certainly can be, and could be here, but we don't know. All we do know is that we don't see it, and JRiver doesn't see it, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to diagnose a fault or bug (especially hangs, which are the worst of all problems to try to fix) if you can't reproduce it.
We NEED TO figure out why it happens to you, and not to us. Things that we ask you to do or check that seem like they are deflecting are us trying to figure out what makes your system special.
That, and running Windows Server is absurdly complex. If you are running it, and you aren't an IT person, you are probably in way over your head. It is really designed to be run by people with years of training and ongoing support contracts. I can't speak for JRiver, but it is almost certainly an unsupported configuration for MC.
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If you're having an MC hang, please use Logging and post the results here. Thanks.
Attached is the log, I will post a quick rundown of what happend.
I start the program
Zone "kjøkken" i chosen, and the playlist "Fest3" is started to play in that zone.
I skip a few songs to provoke the problem to happen as fast as possible
The song "a-ha - analogue" is then played in its entirety
1.15 out in the song CPU load jumps up to 27% (local time 08.31.22)
The UI hangs, I notice this at local time 08.33.41, however the song timer is on 03.06, indicating the actual event to be at 08.33.13
At the end of the song it uses a long time to jump to the next song.
The next song is started at local time 08.35.09 (about a minute "too late")
I stop the song, and exit the program, I exit at local time 08.35.29
At 08.38.19 (around, I didn't catcht it at the exact second), the MC-process avtually ends.
Hope this can be useful.
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You want to make sure that your client PC has direct access to the actual media files on the server and that the filepath to the files on the client is the same as on the server. For example, if your files are in a directory called X:/Audio on the server, you want to a) share that drive or directory over the network and then b) either map the share to drive X: on the client so the relative path is the same, or use UNC paths in the library database.
Then, in MC, under media network/client options make sure the option to "play a local copy" is checked.
If you don't do this, then the MC library server instance is relied on to serve and/or transcode files at all times, which can lead to suboptimal network results. If your client has direct access to the files, it just plays the files directly; in that case the library server is serving only the library, not the media files themselves.
EDIT: reading above it looks like you aren't using UNC paths or mapped drives on this specific computer; it will probably help the situation if you do.
I have checked this before, I didn't have the problem then (or so I thought), however I do not wish to map up the drives, I wish to use the "pure" Server-client function in MC.
Anyhow, I checked it again, and (this time) was able to reproduce the problem even when the drive was mapped up and "Use local files" is checked. I have several other computers connected to the library server with that setup not having this problem, so it does indicate something is happening in that specific computer.
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Would it be helpful if i install a (virtual) version of for instance windows 7 on the same computer (server B), and see if that exhibits the same problems? (it will take some time to setup)
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Please see this thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=93174.0
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Just a reminder to check your network drivers. I can tell you from experience drivers for server class network cards tend to have issues. They are like graphics card drivers where manufacturers go for performance over stability. I've had to mess with drivers and their settings (yes the actual drivers have settings) to get things working correctly on a few servers I've maintained over the years. To give you an example, I once built a new Exchange mail server on some very high end server hardware. It came up and worked correctly. Then all of a sudden it died a couple of hours later and would no longer let clients connect. This went on for about 36 hours of which I had no sleep and resulted in a support call to MS that was kicked all the way up to the developers of the software itself. We finally found the issue with the network card and Intel changed the driver as a result. Keep in mind that everything else on that server worked perfectly without network issues. Also keep in mind that "no one else" had seen the issue before with the same network card and Exchange. It was my particular set-up that killed things.
And what Glynor says about server OS's is true. While they look similar to their workstation counterparts, there are a LOT of different things happening below the surface. They are tuned differently and that includes graphics capabilities. They are not meant to run graphic intensive applications and tuned to support disk and network IO instead. Even as a server MC can rely on graphics for transcoding etc. I never wrote the software so I can't tell you how often it gets used and where. Another place would be during autoimport where it analyses video etc. Neither of us is saying it won't work on a server OS, just that it isn't optimal.
My bet is on a server category Nic doing something odd. Which is why I asked about the drivers. I need to know the make and model and the driver version as well.
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Is your browsing engine (in JRiver MC Options) set to Chromium or Internet Explorer ?
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Just a reminder to check your network drivers.
[
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My bet is on a server category Nic doing something odd. Which is why I asked about the drivers. I need to know the make and model and the driver version as well.
Definitely worth checking.
While it's not a server-grade NIC in my system, the latest Intel drivers on Windows Update for mine introduce significant DPC latency (http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon) problems. (more than 6000µs)
I had to revert to the stock Windows 8.1 driver and block the update.
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At the moment there is basically no other programs than MC installed. (the single other program installed is plextools, the problem was there before that, and it is not even running), the OS is out of the box.
Could you try uninstalling plextools (http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=PlexTools)?
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Attached is the log, I will post a quick rundown of what happend.
The log you provided wasn't collected using the log file collection tool.
Please recreate the issue and follow the instructions here to collect the logs:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging
It would also be helpful to re-iterate any points you already addressed in the long thread above with bullets (to make it so everyone doesn't need to dig through the thread looking for things already asked and answered). As in:
* Anti-virus status
* Primary settings under Options > Video and Options > Audio (screenshots are handy for this)
* Output Format settings in the DSP
* The other stuff discussed here: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Guide#Look_For_Patterns
* Brief rundown on what steps you've taken to date to address this issue (so we can rule things in or out)
You don't have to go into detail (we can get that above for things you've already explained) but just quick bullets covering the major points.
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The log you provided wasn't collected using the log file collection tool.
Please recreate the issue and follow the instructions here to collect the logs:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging
It would also be helpful to re-iterate any points you already addressed in the long thread above with bullets (to make it so everyone doesn't need to dig through the thread looking for things already asked and answered). As in:
* Anti-virus status
* Primary settings under Options > Video and Options > Audio (screenshots are handy for this)
* Output Format settings in the DSP
* The other stuff discussed here: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Guide#Look_For_Patterns
* Brief rundown on what steps you've taken to date to address this issue (so we can rule things in or out)
You don't have to go into detail (we can get that above for things you've already explained) but just quick bullets covering the major points.
Can you specify a bit more what is wrong with the log? I followed in the wiki (or so I thought) to enable logging on the same page you linked too, and then sent over the log created. Did I send the wrong log or something?
Sorry I haven't been able to try the most recent suggestions yet, I have been on some work travel, I will look at it this evening.
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Can you specify a bit more what is wrong with the log? I followed in the wiki (or so I thought) to enable logging on the same page you linked too, and then sent over the log created. Did I send the wrong log or something?
The Zip file you posted contains only the most recent log made by MC. The Log package created by the Report a Problem button should contain at least three items:
* The current log
* The previous log
* The output of the Reporter function
(And a crash dump if any recent crashes occurred.)
I assume you zipped it manually.
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I think what glynor means is that if you followed the directions he linked to it should create a zip file that contains several files. Some of that information is important to help sort this out.
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I think what glynor means is that if you followed the directions he linked to it should create a zip file that contains several files. Some of that information is important to help sort this out.
Yes.
If clicking the Report a Problem button created the Zip file Elvis133 posted before, then something is seriously borked. I think he zipped it himself because of the filename and the contents.
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Yeah; i zipped the file myself. Do you only need the diagnostic information about the computer itself, or also the previous log? The reason i ask (and also why i zipped the file manually), is that by exporting the log like that you don't get the part where it uses a lot of time to quit too.
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The reason i ask (and also why i zipped the file manually), is that by exporting the log like that you don't get the part where it uses a lot of time to quit too.
That's exactly why the Previous log file is included. ;)
In fact, I'd say about 80% of the time I look at these, the "good stuff" is in the Previous Log, not the current one, for this exact reason. That's always the one I open first, for sure. In this particular instance, I did also want the Reporter output, because we're tracking a few different Hang issues that all seem like they could be related. So, looking for things like matching driver versions on affected systems could be useful.
Since JRiver can't reproduce the issues, we have to figure out under what conditions they happen, or it is hopeless.
Also, it is possible (though perhaps unlikely) that the long-shutdown times are a result of an actual crash of a particular component, and not just a deadlock. In this case, we could get a Crash Dump included. The Crash Dump is gold, because they can open it in the debugger and see exactly what MC was doing in RAM at the moment it died. So, we're basically praying for one of those.
Always use the Report a Problem button. Use these steps:
1. Open MC and reproduce the issue.
2. If needed (if it crashes or locks), re-open MC.
3. Immediately go to Help > Logging and click the Report a Problem button.
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New log
21.22.15 Program start
21.24.30 30% Cpu starts
21.26.28 GUI Hang
21.28.36 GUI recovery
21.29.04 Log created.
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New log
21.22.15 Program start
21.24.30 30% Cpu starts
21.26.28 GUI Hang
21.28.36 GUI recovery
21.29.04 Log created.
If the GUI only hangs a few seconds, doesn't that just mean something got a little busy but finished?
I wouldn't think that's a big deal.
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Try running the benchmark under Help in MC, then paste the results here.
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If the GUI only hangs a few seconds, doesn't that just mean something got a little busy but finished?
I wouldn't think that's a big deal.
The timestamps are hour;minute: second, so it hangs about 2 minutes.
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Try running the benchmark under Help in MC, then paste the results here.
This is the score, I have no clue if the numbers are normal or not.
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 17,922 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 11,083 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 3,815 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 1,657 seconds
Score: 551
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0,445 seconds
Flood filling... 1,311 seconds
Direct copying... 0,598 seconds
Small renders... 4,885 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 1,887 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 0,633 seconds
Score: 2254
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0,465 seconds
Populate database... 4,424 seconds
Save database... 0,976 seconds
Reload database... 0,275 seconds
Search database... 3,627 seconds
Sort database... 3,212 seconds
Group database... 2,024 seconds
Score: 1433
JRMark (version 20.0.27): 1413
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New log
21.22.15 Program start
21.24.30 30% Cpu starts
21.26.28 GUI Hang
21.28.36 GUI recovery
21.29.04 Log created.
Thanks for the log. I'll look at it later tonight.
I can say this, though, just briefly looking...
JRMark (version 20.0.27): 1413
If you just did that benchmark, then you are running a build from two weeks ago. It is pointless to diagnose an issue that might not exist anymore. Please update and try again. It probably won't help, and I'll still look at the logs, but... That's really step one. Every time. If you aren't trying with the latest one, we don't know if it is fixed or not already.
If your benchmark was just old and you pasted it in from before, then ignore me. :P
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Thanks for the log. I'll look at it later tonight.
I can say this, though, just briefly looking...
If you just did that benchmark, then you are running a build from two weeks ago. It is pointless to diagnose an issue that might not exist anymore. Please update and try again. It probably won't help, and I'll still look at the logs, but... That's really step one. Every time. If you aren't trying with the latest one, we don't know if it is fixed or not already.
If your benchmark was just old and you pasted it in from before, then ignore me. :P
Well, it is the latest stable version according to the program ;) But I tried the newest one, no difference, the problem was also there with 19.
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Well, it is the latest stable version according to the program ;)
Stable doesn't mean what you think it means. It basically means "less frequently updated". Stable in terms of less frequent updates, and older. That roughly equates to more thoroughly tested, but not always. They do try to pick builds that don't generate all kinds of problems (or where big new features are included right away). But...
As it says right at the beginning of the Troubleshooting Guide:
The version of MC available on the main external JRiver Download Page is not always, or even typically, the most recent build. The versions offered there are generally older builds that have proved reasonably trouble-free for most users. The version there is the same version that will be seen by the built-in Auto Update system in Media Center. Updates to this build only happen occasionally, if for no other reason than it isn't annoying that it pops up the "Update Me" dialog as often.
However, there are also public builds available on Interact. These generally come every week or so (though this timing fluctuates throughout development).
<snip>
It is essential to update to the most recent publicly available build of Media Center before reporting the issue (or trying additional steps to correct it). Otherwise, if the issue has been already addressed, you are only wasting everyone's time.
Jim has posted a detailed description of the way they do development in the past, but... Essentially think of the "Stable" channel as the "Everything is fine and don't bother me as much" channel, and the "Latest" as the "I want the newest stuff right away" channel. If you are experiencing a problem, especially one like this where they're trying to address it and collect information, always test with the latest build.
It isn't to ignore your issue. It is to make sure time is used appropriately. I can't tell you how many times I've gone down the rabbit hole and spent hours upon hours of my own free time helping someone with an issue, when the issue in question was already solved (sometimes weeks ago). No better way to get me to rage-quit than that. ;D
And, if the problem isn't improved, it you can always roll back if you prefer. Sometimes, even if it isn't improved, if it gets worse or changes in some way, that teaches us something.
I'll say this, though... If you've had the problem since MC 19, then something is going on with your system, or you are just trying to push it too hard. This...
JRMark (version 20.0.27): 1413
Is on the low side. Not dismal, and MC should run on it okay, but it will have limits. Transcoding video, for example, is going to be very hard on that box. High-end audio features may not work reliably, or may cause too much overhead.
If your CPU is maxxed out, then it is maxxed out, and your choices are to: (1) do less or (2) improve the hardware.
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For a frame of reference, here's my server:
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 3.629 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 2.412 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 1.211 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 0.723 seconds
Score: 2382
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0.485 seconds
Flood filling... 0.376 seconds
Direct copying... 0.473 seconds
Small renders... 1.197 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 0.908 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 0.565 seconds
Score: 5494
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0.236 seconds
Populate database... 1.070 seconds
Save database... 0.218 seconds
Reload database... 0.057 seconds
Search database... 0.906 seconds
Sort database... 1.139 seconds
Group database... 0.711 seconds
Score: 4958
JRMark (version 20.0.35): 4278
It is a new-ish, high end machine, but it isn't brand new (the CPU is a generation and a half old). It's a Core i7 Ivy 3770 running at stock with 16GB of RAM and an SSD boot volume.
You don't need anywhere near that much for basic use, but if you're trying to be fancy... YMMV.
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JRMark (version 20.0.27): 1413
That's an OK machine, not a very powerful one. It might be part of your problem.
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Seems unlikely that the hardware specs in themselves are the problem.
It is a brand new quad core Xeon at 3.2 Ghz with 16 Gb of memory. If it's a pure performance issue, something is wrong, whether with the hardware or the software.
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That's interesting.
Xeon's are usually used for servers, if I'm not mistaken. glynor will have more to say on this, I'm sure.
Your results are as if one core is carrying the load.
I have a pretty good, not great, notebook with an i5 that has a JRmark of 2700.
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 5.074 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 3.386 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 3.036 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 1.981 seconds
Score: 1410
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0.643 seconds
Flood filling... 0.494 seconds
Direct copying... 0.778 seconds
Small renders... 1.689 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 1.857 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 1.283 seconds
Score: 3262
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0.526 seconds
Populate database... 1.638 seconds
Save database... 0.405 seconds
Reload database... 0.078 seconds
Search database... 1.338 seconds
Sort database... 1.259 seconds
Group database... 0.842 seconds
Score: 3533
JRMark (version 20.0.33): 2735
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Seems unlikely that the hardware specs in themselves are the problem.
It is a brand new quad core Xeon at 3.2 Ghz with 16 Gb of memory. If it's a pure performance issue, something is wrong, whether with the hardware or the software.
Something is badly broken, probably driver-wise, if those are the specs. You should be way, way above those numbers.
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Bios setting?
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Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 17,922 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 11,083 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 3,815 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 1,657 seconds
Score: 551
This should be way, way, way higher with a current gen (or even the last few gens) of Xeons at 3.2GHz.
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It's as if it's running on one core.
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Bios setting?
Could be, though only if it is artificially limited or something.
More likely, with a math score like that, it is throttling, or throwing errors left and right.
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It's as if it's running on one core.
Look at the single-core Math benchmark.
It does have a (marked) improvement in the multithreaded test, so it is getting way better performance from the multiple cores/threads. But it is getting creamed in single-threaded performance. I assumed it was a Core 2 Duo class or maybe even atom, from the scores.
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The CPU is a Xeon E3-1225. That's a Sandy Bridge based Xeon that was launched in 2011. It seems to be overclocked a bit, as they were sold at 3.1GHz, though that could be just the default turbo boost (and probably is), though if you have any "auto-overclocking" features enabled in your BIOS, then you need to turn them off.
Something is totally borked. I'll write up some hardware testing you can do to try to isolate the cause. But MC's math benchmark is pretty "close to the metal". That means, it isn't running right. We'll verify it with some 3rd Party benchmarks, but... Yeah, that's not good.
If it is CPU performance like that, drivers are less likely to help (it should blow those scores out of the water with just plain Windows installed and default drivers). It could be a particularly nasty driver or piece of hardware attached, but it is more likely a hardware problem (heat, RAM, Power Supply, etc).
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Also, should ask...
You said it was new. The CPU was launched Q2 2011 and is EOL. Where did it come from?
Nevermind. I figured it out.
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The low benchmark could also be a result of a server OS. I'm going to try it on a server 2012 R2 at work with some decent but 4 year old hardware and see how it performs.
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I made one mistake above, the Xeons in that are more likely newer versions of the E3-1225. I didn't realize they re-used those model numbers with different versions on the low end Xeons, so I didn't look.
That could be a 1225v2 (Ivy, stock 3.2GHz) or a 1225v3 (Haswell-E from last year). One of those two probably makes more sense since it's listed at 3.2GHz, and that matches with the later versions.
The low benchmark could also be a result of a server OS. I'm going to try it on a server 2012 R2 at work with some decent but 4 year old hardware and see how it performs.
Unless it is wildly misconfigured for MC, then I can't see how it'd have that big of an impact on the Math scores. Easy enough to check, with a few basic benchmarks.
Download Hyper PI (http://www.virgilioborges.com.br/hyperpi/). It doesn't require installation, you can just unzip the folder directly to your desktop and run it.
Run the 1M and 32M tests on all cores.
Assuming it is an Ivy or Haswell CPU, the 1M test should complete in around 11 seconds (give or take a second or so) on all cores. The 32M test should complete in around 9.5 - 10.5 minutes on all cores. If your numbers are wildly off of that, then something is throttling or mis-configuring that CPU badly (or else it is busted).
If that doesn't reveal an obvious, immediate issue, then it is worth running Prime95 on it and checking the CPU temps, as well as doing a RAM test.
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It is a 1225v3, 3,2 Ghz is stock, 3,6 Ghz Turbo
I checked with hyper-PI, 1 M was 12,3 Seconds, 32M was 10 minutes 22 seconds. . I have another server with the same CPU and MS server 2012 R2 (though the "essentials" version, not the full one as the computer with the problems have), it has a different mobo and PSU, but RAM from the same manufacturer (Its the one called server A in the earlier posts). It ran HyperPi in about the same time, 11,8 seconds. However the JRiver benchmarks give a quite different result (they are pasted in the bottom here)
For fun i tried to check the super-pi-numbers with MC running, it didn't make much of a difference, however if i reproduced the 25-30% CPU-load-condition, and ran super-PI, 3 of the cores used about the same time as before, and the last one around doubled its time. But i guess that is also normal behaviour if another process uses up about a 4th of the CPU power.
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 7,691 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 4,601 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 2,374 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 1,331 seconds
Score: 1188
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0,344 seconds
Flood filling... 0,848 seconds
Direct copying... 0,486 seconds
Small renders... 1,833 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 0,845 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 0,480 seconds
Score: 4549
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0,396 seconds
Populate database... 3,669 seconds
Save database... 0,723 seconds
Reload database... 0,197 seconds
Search database... 1,824 seconds
Sort database... 1,535 seconds
Group database... 1,840 seconds
Score: 2111
JRMark (version 20.0.27): 2616
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Are you running Windows Server 2012 on the problem machine?
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Are you running Windows Server 2012 on the problem machine?
Server 2012 R2 Datacenter
(the other one has Server 2012 R2 Essentials)
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It is a 1225v3, 3,2 Ghz is stock, 3,6 Ghz Turbo
I checked with hyper-PI, 1 M was 12,3 Seconds, 32M was 10 minutes 22 seconds.
Running it at the same time as MC's benchmark isn't useful, in this case (except maybe for stability testing). The 32M score you reported looks OK, but the 1M score is on the low end for that CPU (most of them I looked up were faster).
However, you only reported one. Was that the average? I was interested to see the variability between cores. What were the times for each core?
Are you running Windows Server 2012 on the problem machine?
That's a good question. Please bear in mind, and I mentioned this before, configuring Windows Server to run MC well is not simple. It will not run well on a vanilla out-of-the-box Windows Server installation. At the very least, it requires the Desktop Experience to be installed, and it generally isn't supported.
So, if it is running on Windows Server, what have you done to ensure that it is configured correctly?
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Running it at the same time as MC's benchmark isn't useful, in this case (except maybe for stability testing). The 32M score you reported looks OK, but the 1M score is on the low end for that CPU (most of them I looked up were faster).
However, you only reported one. Was that the average? I was interested to see the variability between cores. What were the times for each core?
That's a good question. Please bear in mind, and I mentioned this before, configuring Windows Server to run MC well is not simple. It will not run well on a vanilla out-of-the-box Windows Server installation. At the very least, it requires the Desktop Experience to be installed, and it generally isn't supported.
So, if it is running on Windows Server, what have you done to ensure that it is configured correctly?
It wasnt the same time as MCs benchmark, it was just with MC running (just in case something with running the program causes low benchmark-scores)
The reported scores are average, without MC running, the cores had pretty similar times. I can run it again when i get home to get exact numbers. However it seems that the very low numbers seen in MCs benchmark is not mirrored by the HyperPI-test, which according to you might be below average, but still nothing close to half or less of the expected performance as shown in the MC-benchmarks.
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I am having the same issue of the program hanging. i have I-7 with 16 gb memory.I have a new install of windows 8.1 with all updates for windows. I have AMD 6850 with latest updates. i tried to upload the log but it is 852 kb and 700 is the max for upload. I don't know how to make it smaller.
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 4.535 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 2.553 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 1.336 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 0.969 seconds
Score: 2023
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0.673 seconds
Flood filling... 0.711 seconds
Direct copying... 0.989 seconds
Small renders... 1.810 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 1.216 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 0.817 seconds
Score: 3540
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0.322 seconds
Populate database... 1.743 seconds
Save database... 0.374 seconds
Reload database... 0.055 seconds
Search database... 1.349 seconds
Sort database... 1.204 seconds
Group database... 0.854 seconds
Score: 3644
JRMark (version 20.0.35):
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i tried to upload the log but it is 852 kb and 700 is the max for upload. I don't know how to make it smaller.
I don't know if this thread is the place to do it, since your problem isn't likely directly related to Elvis133's issue (which I think we've nailed down is due to poor single-threaded performance within MC on his machine).
But if the log is large like that, it is great because that almost certainly means it contains a crash dump. The Logging wiki article (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging) has suggestions for how to make a public link to the log if it is too big to attach. I'd post it over here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=93174.0
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It wasnt the same time as MCs benchmark, it was just with MC running (just in case something with running the program causes low benchmark-scores)
Gotcha.
The reported scores are average, without MC running, the cores had pretty similar times. I can run it again when i get home to get exact numbers.
No need, as long as you are sure there weren't any big outliers.
I agree with your assessment, generally. That 1M time is about 1 full second beyond what I expected (~9% deficit), but there may be other processes and drivers on your machine that have that kind of impact. The MC benchmark score is not just 9% off. It is something like 30% of what it should be.
So, that brings us to something that is interfering with MC specifically. This is pretty likely to be Windows configuration, though there are some other options.
Please answer this:
Please bear in mind, and I mentioned this before, configuring Windows Server to run MC well is not simple. It will not run well on a vanilla out-of-the-box Windows Server installation. At the very least, it requires the Desktop Experience to be installed, and it generally isn't supported.
So, if it is running on Windows Server, what have you done to ensure that it is configured correctly?
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The desktop experience is installed, anything other in particular you had in mind, AFAIK the kernel is pretty similar with win 8, main differences being other restrictions with number of connections, number of cores and so on, and a general setting to prioritize background tasks more.
Although that beeing said, it should be no problem, even for an atom to stream music from my library without hanging, i have no problem with a similar task on a weak older 1,3 Ghz dual-core (and the first minutes MC only uses about 1% CPU, which is more in line with what it should be, and it does show that the pure hardware performance alone isn't the only problem, even if it turns out be be a lot below what it should be).
Could it be that having 4 sound cards somehow causes trouble?
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Sorry Glynor. I thought this was the Hangs investigation post.
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The desktop experience is installed, anything other in particular you had in mind, AFAIK the kernel is pretty similar with win 8, main differences being other restrictions with number of connections, number of cores and so on, and a general setting to prioritize background tasks more.
Windows Server has a number of other limitations and changes from the desktop version of Windows. For example:
* It handles power management completely differently.
* The driver rules are different (only 64-bit signed drivers are allowed)
* SEHOP and DEP are enabled by default for all processes.
* IE has many enhanced security features which can impact third-party applications that use the IE engine (like MC)
* Portions of DirectX (including Xinput and XAudio) are not included, and must be installed manually.
In general, Windows Server is NOT designed to be used as a workstation. It is possible to do, but you better really know what you are doing, and be willing to diagnose issues yourself. That's why we're saying it isn't supported. You're doing something that Microsoft explicitly says you shouldn't do, and makes it difficult to do.
Although that beeing said, it should be no problem, even for an atom to stream music from my library without hanging, i have no problem with a similar task on a weak older 1,3 Ghz dual-core (and the first minutes MC only uses about 1% CPU, which is more in line with what it should be, and it does show that the pure hardware performance alone isn't the only problem, even if it turns out be be a lot below what it should be).
The poor performance in the benchmark is a symptom of the problem, as are the hangs. If you fix one, you will almost certainly fix both. That math performance number (which is what MC is seeing internally) is dismal. For the record, I'm getting this on my Macbook Pro (an older Sandy Bridge i7) while running MC within Windows in a VM with only 2 CPU threads assigned:
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 4.984 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 3.288 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 5.676 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 3.268 seconds
Score: 1104
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0.339 seconds
Flood filling... 0.597 seconds
Direct copying... 0.885 seconds
Small renders... 1.858 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 2.679 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 1.726 seconds
Score: 2721
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0.333 seconds
Populate database... 1.459 seconds
Save database... 0.195 seconds
Reload database... 0.058 seconds
Search database... 1.457 seconds
Sort database... 1.657 seconds
Group database... 1.078 seconds
Score: 3447
JRMark (version 20.0.35): 2424
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Is Datacenter licensed? That pretty expensive software for home use. Because if there is an activation hack, that may very well cause all kinds of issues.
My brother felt the need to "save some money" in the past and I washed my hands of his computers while he used those. Constant strange issues, freezes etc. He called all the time for help and eventually I came to the conclusion that his "money saved" was my "money spent", so I refused to help any more. :) Since he stopped using such things he hasn't had those issues and I hardly ever get a call.
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Is Datacenter licensed? That pretty expensive software for home use. Because if there is an activation hack, that may very well cause all kinds of issues.
My brother felt the need to "save some money" in the past and I washed my hands of his computers while he used those. Constant strange issues, freezes etc. He called all the time for help and eventually I came to the conclusion that his "money saved" was my "money spent", so I refused to help any more. :) Since he stopped using such things he hasn't had those issues and I hardly ever get a call.
It is licenced yes.
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Windows Server has a number of other limitations and changes from the desktop version of Windows. For example:
* It handles power management completely differently.
* The driver rules are different (only 64-bit signed drivers are allowed)
* SEHOP and DEP are enabled by default for all processes.
* IE has many enhanced security features which can impact third-party applications that use the IE engine (like MC)
* Portions of DirectX (including Xinput and XAudio) are not included, and must be installed manually.
In general, Windows Server is NOT designed to be used as a workstation. It is possible to do, but you better really know what you are doing, and be willing to diagnose issues yourself. That's why we're saying it isn't supported. You're doing something that Microsoft explicitly says you shouldn't do, and makes it difficult to do.
The poor performance in the benchmark is a symptom of the problem, as are the hangs. If you fix one, you will almost certainly fix both. That math performance number (which is what MC is seeing internally) is dismal. For the record, I'm getting this on my Macbook Pro (an older Sandy Bridge i7) while running MC within Windows in a VM with only 2 CPU threads assigned:
I am not using it as a workstation, I am using it as a server :) It doesn't even have a monitor connect too it in normal circumstances. It could be that the enhanced IE security is somewhat related i guess, I can try to change the browsing engine (And I seem to remember disabling enhanced security mode for IE on server B, where MC seems to run quite normal)
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Server 2012 R2 Datacenter
(the other one has Server 2012 R2 Essentials)
Have you tweaked it in any way? Reduced services, etc?
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Have you tweaked it in any way? Reduced services, etc?
It is very close to vanilla, it has some functions installed in addition to what comes out of the box, straight from install, like File storage services, and Hyper-V, but it is quite sparse on that front too.
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So here are the benchmarks from the server at work:
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 4.427 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 2.635 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 2.405 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 1.395 seconds
Score: 1749
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0.735 seconds
Flood filling... 1.263 seconds
Direct copying... 2.557 seconds
Small renders... 2.117 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 1.468 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 0.962 seconds
Score: 2417
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0.424 seconds
Populate database... 1.951 seconds
Save database... 0.194 seconds
Reload database... 0.061 seconds
Search database... 1.921 seconds
Sort database... 1.493 seconds
Group database... 1.111 seconds
Score: 3005
JRMark (version 20.0.27): 2390
This is on a 4 year older server that is running backup software at the time of the benchmarks. So it should have marks much lower than yours. However the math benchmark is higher.
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Media Center is a user-land application. You ARE using it as a workstation if you are running MC. That was my point.
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To add to what Glynor said about server OS's. I do maintain them for a living, so I know what I'm talking about. I would never use one to run MC. I have access to extra licenses etc for free but instead pay for windows 8 to run my main MC computers at home. I'm not saying this is your issue, but I do believe you will get less performance from a server OS as opposed to workstation one.
Just because something runs "headless" (without a monitor) does not mean it should use a server OS. For example we also have some expensive monitors that run in the field to take acoustical measurements and are "headless" most of the time. They cost about 30k each. They run Windows 7 not Server 2008 because they depend on A/V which doesn't work well on server O/S. In fact, the software that runs on them won't even install on a server OS as the manufacturer knows there are issues running on that platform.
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It is very close to vanilla, it has some functions installed in addition to what comes out of the box, straight from install, like File storage services, and Hyper-V, but it is quite sparse on that front too.
Anything other than stock could be suspect.
I asked because on some forums, people go a little crazy over shutting down any little piece of the OS that they can, and that certainly can cause problems.
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Anything other than stock could be suspect.
I asked because on some forums, people go a little crazy over shutting down any little piece of the OS that they can, and that certainly can cause problems.
The things installed in addition to a vanilla server 2012 are
.NET 4.5
Media Foundation
Hyper-V Management Tools
User interfaces and infrastructure (This includes desktop experience)
Windows Powershell
WOW64 support.
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I checked with the chromium web-browser instead of IE, no difference, still the same problem.
I also installed a Virtual install of win8 on the server, installed MC and ran the benchmark on the virtual machine got the following numbers
=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===
Running 'Math' benchmark...
Single-threaded integer math... 6,779 seconds
Single-threaded floating point math... 2,629 seconds
Multi-threaded integer math... 2,620 seconds
Multi-threaded mixed math... 1,473 seconds
Score: 1407
Running 'Image' benchmark...
Image creation / destruction... 0,348 seconds
Flood filling... 0,383 seconds
Direct copying... 0,472 seconds
Small renders... 1,265 seconds
Bilinear rendering... 0,860 seconds
Bicubic rendering... 0,488 seconds
Score: 5765
Running 'Database' benchmark...
Create database... 0,205 seconds
Populate database... 5,016 seconds
Save database... 2,959 seconds
Reload database... 1,674 seconds
Search database... 2,297 seconds
Sort database... 1,658 seconds
Group database... 2,676 seconds
Score: 1304
JRMark (version 20.0.27): 2825
I guess not a stellar result, but the virtual machine got much better results than the host.
I noticed the install of MC triggered an installation of .net 3.5 on the vitual machine , is this needed? It is not installed on the host OS which runs MC normally.
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MC does not require .NET at all to my knowledge. If so, it would be one of the third-party tools that it uses, but I don't think even that.
If your server still has IE in locked down mode, that would be a good first place to look. I can see that causing such problems with all of the activities it does that it might have multiple threads stuck (which could, maybe, explain the oddball benchmarking scores).
Those (original, server) benchmark scores are odd. The multithreaded math test is roughly in-line with what I'd expect from the results (a little low, but in the ballpark). The single-threaded test, however, is dismal. If the single-threaded task is running in the main thread (which would make sense as a good benchmark for actual performance) then perhaps that explains both the hangs and the test score.
The VM test is about where I'd expect it to be.
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MC does not require .NET at all to my knowledge. If so, it would be one of the third-party tools that it uses, but I don't think even that.
If your server still has IE in locked down mode, that would be a good first place to look. I can see that causing such problems with all of the activities it does that it might have multiple threads stuck (which could, maybe, explain the oddball benchmarking scores).
Those (original, server) benchmark scores are odd. The multithreaded math test is roughly in-line with what I'd expect from the results (a little low, but in the ballpark). The single-threaded test, however, is dismal. If the single-threaded task is running in the main thread (which would make sense as a good benchmark for actual performance) then perhaps that explains both the hangs and the test score.
The VM test is about where I'd expect it to be.
I think the single-threaded score is more a symptom of some underlying problem than the cause, half, a fourth, or even a tenth of the expected performance of a single 3,2 GHz modern core should be more than enough to stream music, and this also shows in that the first minutes of playback the CPU is only loaded 1% or so.
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I think the single-threaded score is more a symptom of some underlying problem than the cause
Right.
The poor performance in the benchmark is a symptom of the problem, as are the hangs. If you fix one, you will almost certainly fix both.
Your VM test along with your HyperPI results is pretty solid proof that the problem is somewhere in your configuration of Windows. That's why I said at the outset that configuring Windows Server is hard and unsupported.
It is possible that you have a hardware problem, but it almost certainly would have cropped up in the 32M HyperPI results (which is why I had you run those, to get the CPU nice and hot) if it was bad enough to cause the dismal single-thread performance. Since that didn't happen, if you have a hardware problem, it is likely to be far more subtle. And, frankly, you should be seeing bluescreen crashes regularly if it was that bad.
Windows Server is not designed to run MC (and most applications like it). You can do it, but it isn't an easy task, and you're probably going to be chasing problems forever (as updates change things subtly).
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Glynor:
Do you know how the single threaded benchmark is generated? If I knew how it was done, I might gets some ideas about where to look for the issue.
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Only vaguely. It does some fundamental math that is important for general performance in MC.
Matt's a huge math nerd. Ask him. ;)
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Matt's a huge math nerd. Ask him. ;)
I'm scared to...
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Right.
Your VM test along with your HyperPI results is pretty solid proof that the problem is somewhere in your configuration of Windows. That's why I said at the outset that configuring Windows Server is hard and unsupported.
It is possible that you have a hardware problem, but it almost certainly would have cropped up in the 32M HyperPI results (which is why I had you run those, to get the CPU nice and hot) if it was bad enough to cause the dismal single-thread performance. Since that didn't happen, if you have a hardware problem, it is likely to be far more subtle. And, frankly, you should be seeing bluescreen crashes regularly if it was that bad.
Windows Server is not designed to run MC (and most applications like it). You can do it, but it isn't an easy task, and you're probably going to be chasing problems forever (as updates change things subtly).
I have another, very similar machine with windows server running just fine, and other people here are unable to reproduce the problem on windows server. The problem might be related to the OS, but running MC on server windows usually causes no problems. I think this particular setup is the outlier, not the ones who runs MC fine on server OS. It is not my experience that it is either difficult to setup in a working state, nor that I am going to chase problems forever (at least not any more than on a desktop os), running it on a server OS.
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Elvis,
I'm sorry but I'm going to close this now. It is pretty clear that it's a problem with the Windows Server installation you're using. I'd recommend switching the machine to Win7 or Win8.
Thanks to everyone who helped.
Jim
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Elvis,
We're unable to further assist you with configuring Windows Server properly to handle running desktop applications. There have been a number of recommendations made in this thread, and I'm not sure at all which ones (if any) you've followed.
I, personally, think the IE lockdown, if still active, is most likely the cause here, but it could be any one of about 1000 factors. For example, I saw in your System Info in the log you posted that there are a whole bunch of audio device drivers loaded (including a bunch of USB devices). Any one of these, or other drivers, could be causing the issue. As I mentioned, Windows Server is much pickier about drivers, and I've personally seen many performance issues on Windows Server caused by a single ill-advised driver (usually devices designed for consumer use).
Suffice to say, as we've said before, that running MC is not supported on Windows Server. As we said, it can be done, but it is best reserved for experts who would not need to ask us questions about basic server configuration steps.
I agree with the others that running in Windows 7 or 8 would be a better course of action. If you use other features of your Windows Server installation, you could conceivably run MC in a VM on the machine. If you need assistance with a supported MC configuration, please feel free to open a new thread.
Thanks, and sorry again for your trouble.
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Hello, refering to the original "Hangs" thread
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=93075.0
I have now reproduced the problem in a Win 8.1 installation. (Running om WMvare on the server).
(Just for further information, I also tried running IE without enhanced security, and running without any soundcards on the original server, but was unable to post the results before it was closed, neither made any difference).
To sum up the system on the computer:
The setup is the following
Server A: Has a MC 20 library server running, no AV, firewall open, 500 MB/s disk-array and gigabit net. It has Xenon CPU and an Intel C224 Server board
Server B: Has a MC 20 client, connected to server A, no A, firewall open, gigabit net, 4 sound-cards which is sent to my speakers in different rooms in the house. It has a Xenon CPU, and a intel C224 server board
Both have Windows server 2012 R2 and uses the onboard NICs. Both have very little installed in terms of other programs, however server A also works as a regular file-server.
I don't remember the exact name of the hardware, I am going to check it out when i get back home.
The problem is on Server B, that is the client. On server B i am running a windows 8 install with WMware, the CPU usage is high when playing music on the MC 20 client, from the MC library server on server A. and it also hangs up regularly, with the UI becoming totally unresponsive.
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Elvis,
I closed the other thread because I think it was demonstrated that your hardware / OS are damaged. It may be the setup, but this is not an MC problem. I'm closing this thread. Please do not re-post on this problem.
Try re-reading the thread for ideas. Try an Internet search.
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It's time to nuke and pave with Win 8.1.