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More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 20 for Windows => Topic started by: ThomasB on December 03, 2014, 09:21:26 pm

Title: Limitation on file name
Post by: ThomasB on December 03, 2014, 09:21:26 pm
Hi there!

I am getting "file name too long" while importing new audio files. What is the limitation on that?

Example:
E:\Media Server Directory\Music\Assorted Albums\Concertos for Double Bass & Orchestra (Zsolt Fejervari, double bass; Erkel Ferenc Chamber Orchestra)\01 - Vanhal, Jan Krtitel (1739-1813) - Concerto for Double Bass & Orchestra in D major_ 1. Allegro moderato.mp3
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ~OHM~ on December 03, 2014, 09:28:37 pm
windows i believe is like 260...that includes spaces and the complete file path
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ThomasB on December 03, 2014, 10:21:16 pm
Sorry, wrong answer. This is a file on a 64-bit Windows System. So it has nothing to do with Windows. The field called "file name" is simply limited to "X" characters for unknown reasons. That's the reason I'm asking here. What is "X"?
Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ~OHM~ on December 03, 2014, 10:32:56 pm
Unfortunately Windows Explorer on Windows x64 is still subject to this path limit.  It is possible that a 3rd party file manager using the latest APIs could get around this. Ultimately whether a program appears to hit the path limit will depend on whether that program uses the newest APIs on Windows
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: Listener on December 03, 2014, 11:45:01 pm
Quote from: ThomasB on December 03, 2014, 10:21:16 pm
Sorry, wrong answer. This is a file on a 64-bit Windows System. So it has nothing to do with Windows. The field called "file name" is simply limited to "X" characters for unknown reasons. That's the reason I'm asking here. What is "X"?
Could somebody enlighten me, please?

Since you have a problem you can't solve, you might be a bit more polite when you get help.
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: lawe on December 04, 2014, 02:13:30 am
Quote from: ThomasB on December 03, 2014, 09:21:26 pm
Hi there!

I am getting "file name too long" while importing new audio files. What is the limitation on that?

Example:
E:\Media Server Directory\Music\Assorted Albums\Concertos for Double Bass & Orchestra (Zsolt Fejervari, double bass; Erkel Ferenc Chamber Orchestra)\01 - Vanhal, Jan Krtitel (1739-1813) - Concerto for Double Bass & Orchestra in D major_ 1. Allegro moderato.mp3

Firstly dont use MP3 use Flac, Ape or Wav. Why use high quality software when listening to crap quality files?

Secondly Itīs better to use UNC than a mapping character, use the name of your NAS (or SAN) and have either a Media or music share that you use to connect to

\\mynas\music   or \\mynas\media\music   if u want to have \\mynas\media\movies   and so on

In \\mynas\music   create a separate folder for each artist and a subfolder for each album

That gives  
\\mynas\music\AC-DC\Ballbreaker
\\mynas\music\AC-DC\Rock Or Bust  and so on.

Do again - do right.
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ThomasB on December 04, 2014, 11:25:58 am
Quote from: Listener on December 03, 2014, 11:45:01 pm
Since you have a problem you can't solve, you might be a bit more polite when you get help.

I don't have a problem I can't solve. I just want to have a right answer and not a guess.

Who knows it?
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ferday on December 04, 2014, 11:47:51 am
Quote from: ThomasB on December 04, 2014, 11:25:58 am
I don't have a problem I can't solve. I just want to have a right answer and not a guess.

Who knows it?

just FYI, you are (somewhat) wrong about Windows 64 being special.  if you want longer file paths you need to use the \\?\ notation

as far as JRiver, says Matt
"Like others say, the shell limits you to 260 and the file system (normally) has a much larger limit.

"JRiver performs a sanity check on import (on Windows only) and rejects filenames longer than the shell can safely support.  This is done because we don't want to create other problems later (why can't I find my file in Explorer, why is my sidecar not working, etc.).

"I think we might someday remove the JRiver safety check on import.  After that, we would handle any length file but not create a filename longer than 260 characters ourselves.  We would make this change sometime when we were happy to deal with possible problems, which won't be in the near future."

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=85702.0
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: JimH on December 04, 2014, 11:51:27 am
This is a subject you could learn about by doing an Internet search.  It isn't specific to MC.
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ~OHM~ on December 04, 2014, 12:34:23 pm
Quote from: TAO1857 on December 03, 2014, 10:32:56 pm
Unfortunately Windows Explorer on Windows x64 is still subject to this path limit.  It is possible that a 3rd party file manager using the latest APIs could get around this. Ultimately whether a program appears to hit the path limit will depend on whether that program uses the newest APIs on Windows
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: Arindelle on December 04, 2014, 12:52:42 pm
My two cents, path+file name

Your X=should be 244 characters (255 characters if using UNC paths, actually more using really long paths as ferday mention, but that's for Glynor or ferday to explain  :D).

As Tao said correctly there is a 260 character limit (Maxpath) imposed by Windows OS.

                   Item(s)Maximum number
 of characters		            Comments
All components together including null terminator
D:\somefolder\somesubfolder\somefile.extension{nul}		260Limit imposed by Windows OS
All components without null terminator. (Disk or volume plus folders plus file)
D:\somefolder\somesubfolder\somefile.extension		259Actual limit since null terminator always uses up one character.
All folders plus file
somefolder\somesubfolder\somefile.extension		256Number left after allowing three characters for disk or volume name.
File
somefile.extension		255Limit imposed for any one object . Practical limit likely to be less unless file is in the root directory.
All folders
somefolder\somesubfolder\		244Limit for folders imposed by the need to reserve characters
for alternate 8.3 short names for files.

Using 64bit system you can avoid the 8.3 penalty but you might have issue playing back or manipulating files on 32 bit systems. UNC paths+file would be 255-3 for the drive volume or max 252 characters.

Quote from: lawe
Secondly Itīs better to use UNC than a mapping character, use the name of your NAS (or SAN)
I don't totally agree on that for JRiver use. If you have a server/client set-up where the server is a PC and not a NAS, I find it better to map the drive to a lettered drive. If you have a NAS, sure go unc. Everything else I agree with though lawe ;)

Regardless it is often in classical music where you scape these really long file names when ripping. Probably because the original guys who took the time to tag an opera manually where used to using the file name to choose their music directly from windows or tree set of folders. That's a bit medieval now. On top of it it players there is never enough space to actually read the album and track name

Most of the OPs filename should be in the metadata and not in the file -- like the life span ?? of I presume the composer??!!  Another reason why the FLAC container is so cool, it holds as much detail as you want.

IMO, but shared  lots of people is you want a file structure to enable rebuilding a messed up library that would also allow you to find it in a web search if necessary. SO you need the album artist, the artist (for compilations) the track number, the track name the disk number, and the album name. With classical often you find the last name of the conductor in brackets. You don't repeat anything.

so the OPs long file name
E:\Media Server Directory\Music\Assorted Albums\Concertos for Double Bass & Orchestra (Zsolt Fejervari, double bass; Erkel Ferenc Chamber Orchestra)\01 - Vanhal, Jan Krtitel (1739-1813) - Concerto for Double Bass & Orchestra in D major_ 1. Allegro moderato.mp3

could be something like this (or a UNC version of course)

E:\Music\Vanhal, Jan Krtitel\Concerto for Double Bass & Orchestra in D major[Ferenc]\1. Allegro moderato.mp3

(+ the artist name for compilations)

you could even add a "Classical" to the path and you would still be at half the number the OP was before. Some people do add a date to differentiate versions in classical, but again that can be in embedded tags too. Lots of ways to do it, as long as it is consistent

Long file names can provoke other problems too. I have found lots of my long file names (that still exist cause I'm lazy), are truncated or have timing errors. They play, they import, they are under the limit (barely)  - but some of the song is missing^^

I hope that JRiver keeps the shell limit or even reduces it some.

http://vlaurie.com/computers2/Articles/filenames.htm (http://vlaurie.com/computers2/Articles/filenames.htm)   http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa365247%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#maxpath (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa365247%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#maxpath)

Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ThomasB on December 04, 2014, 12:53:36 pm
Quote from: lawe on December 04, 2014, 02:13:30 am
Firstly dont use MP3 use Flac, Ape or Wav. Why use high quality software when listening to crap quality files?

Secondly Itīs better to use UNC than a mapping character, use the name of your NAS (or SAN) and have either a Media or music share that you use to connect to

\\mynas\music   or \\mynas\media\music   if u want to have \\mynas\media\movies   and so on

In \\mynas\music   create a separate folder for each artist and a subfolder for each album

That gives  
\\mynas\music\AC-DC\Ballbreaker
\\mynas\music\AC-DC\Rock Or Bust  and so on.

Do again - do right.


Dear "lawe",

I do not want to discuss the pros and cons of different file formats. I do have good reasons to store my files in MP3 format and will not change. And this has nothing to do with the subject.
I also know how to solve the problem. It only occured when I moved my library to a net server for back-up purposes and the long path was given by the NAS software. The failure occurred only as a result of this.
Usually I store my files locally on e.g. D:\Mp3\ on my different PCs and then also long file names which are unavoidable in my design for storage of classical music on assorted albums will be accepted during import. I am not talking about AC DC albums, which by the way also are part of my collection of nearly 100k files.

I started to computerize my music collection nearly 20 years ago with JRiver Jukebox Version 6. Don't treat me as stupid. Maybe I can tell you something about the most important things which are influencing the sound quality. The compression format is not the most important factor if somebody considers digitally stored music as audiophile sound quality at all. Music was always and will for ever be analog. Every method for conversion of analog to digital is influencing the quality somehow. The only question is whether the listener hears the difference or not. However, as audiophile voodoo is a matter of fact this is an endless discussion anyway. The only way to find out is a personally conducted blind test study and nothing else. I've done many studies already. Finally, what is nice for you might be crap for me. Who knows?

I only raised a simple question and wanted to have a correct answer; i.e. the file length limitation of MC and the reason for it.

P.S.: Please consider that English isn't my mother language when reading my text.
  
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ferday on December 04, 2014, 12:57:30 pm
Quote from: ThomasB on December 04, 2014, 12:53:36 pm


I only raised a simple question and wanted to have a correct answer; i.e. the file lenght limitation of MC and the reason for it.


  

Read my previous post.  It was a very simple and correct answer, from the mouth of JRiver.
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: ThomasB on December 04, 2014, 01:46:45 pm
Dear "ferday" and "Arindelle",

Thank you for your explanations. That are the answers I was looking for.

FYI when I started to design my file naming conventions the ID-tags were not as far developed as today to store such informations whithin the tags and so far the file lenght didn't create a problem.
There are still some unresolved shortcomings which are coming to my mind when I think on tagging issues, such as the album year versus the track year on assorted albums. That is one reason why I don't like assorted albums at all. However, they are unfortunately unavoidable for classical music. For all other genres I prefer to deal with original albums or singles to overcome this problem.
I still have no clue how to handle this within MC. Classical music is a very tricky subject concerning tagging issues for music collectors and if you want to avoid to deal with two separate programs, one for listening and one for the musical database.

I raised the year problem more than a year ago and I didn't get even an answer from JRiver although I repeated it several times.

Out of personal experience I also hate to invent custom fields. I once started e.g. to register the opus number for classical music in a custom field called "opus". Because this field was not stored in the ID-tag, but in the data base only, I lost all this information during a change from one version to another and all the effort was for nothing. That is one reason why I stay with my long file names. I rather keep the path as short as possible.

Regards, Thomas

Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: JimH on December 04, 2014, 01:52:39 pm
Quote from: ThomasB on December 04, 2014, 01:46:45 pm
Out of personal experience I also hate to invent custom fields. I once started e.g. to register the opus number for classical music in a custom field called "opus". Because this field was not stored in the ID-tag, but in the data base only, I lost all this information during a change from one version to another and all the effort was for nothing.
That could happen if you had set MC not to store the tags in the file.  Or if you didn't add the custom field in the new version.  The name of the field (tag) would have to match exactly.
Title: Re: Limitation on file name
Post by: AndyU on December 05, 2014, 01:30:07 am
TLPD (http://sourceforge.net/projects/tlpd/) is a handy little tool for finding long path/filenames that may potentially cause problems. ime it's worth keeping filenames a good bit below the 260 limit (or whatever it is) so that files can be moved about, backed up, retrieved from the recycle bin etc.