INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 21 for Windows => Topic started by: JimH on October 18, 2015, 05:30:26 pm
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In a couple of weeks, we will launch a Kickstarter campaign to help fund our development of an enhanced television package called JRiver TV Plus. It will be an add-on package with a price of $39.98 and will be discounted during the campaign. This will allow MC to replace Windows Media Center with an equivalent or better feature set.
The price will include a year's subscription to the enhanced EPG.
If you're not familiar with Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/about?ref=nav), they are a web site devoted to "crowd funding". In some ways, it's a little like going to the racetrack and betting. You can "back" any project you like. Often you're buying a product before it exists. As you might imagine, it doesn't always work out.
This new TV package will add two important features:
1. Ability to play encrypted (copy once) content from cable companies, similar to what Windows Media Center once did.
2. An upgraded EPG (Electronic Program Guide). We're aiming at broad geographical coverage. This will probably be Gracenote or Rovi.
Both of these require significant development and expensive licenses. That's why the enhancement will be an add-on package.
A current version of JRiver Media Center will also be required to use this.
I can't promise that we will be able to fulfill everyone's wishes for the perfect TV software, but I do promise that we will do our very best to make it happen, and if you decide to pitch in, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you're doing something very meaningful to advance JRiver's development in this direction.
Thank you!
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Well count me in ;D The lack of 1) is the main reason we're not paying for HBO right now (we'd like it, but not enough to use a cable box).
Do you have any sense of how you'll deal with the DRM issues or is it too soon to say?
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interesting...
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Well count me in ;D The lack of 1) is the main reason we're not paying for HBO right now (we'd like it, but not enough to use a cable box).
Do you have any sense of how you'll deal with the DRM issues or is it too soon to say?
Thanks. We're now .029% of the way to our goal.
We'll add support for Microsoft's Playready DRM.
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can I assume this is US only?
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Can I assume that you will expand on what #2 includes before the campaign starts?
Will the EPG just cover USA and Canada? Europe? Australia? The world?
Who will be the provider of the EPG data? By region?
Will this be a "set and forget" EPG that just works from now on?
Will there be an annual subscription fee, or just a once off purchase and then normal upgrade costs?
What sort of data will be provided in the EPG? Not just program names and episode names, but Season and Episode numbers, Repeat Flags, Genres, etc.? i.e.
Will you consider using methods to monitor program start and end times, and adjust recordings so that much less padding is required with recordings? The two methods I am aware of are the OTA CRID data and the OTA "Now and Next" data broadcasters provide in many regions. These methods could also be used to capture last minute programming changes that broadcasters often make in Australia, and probably elsewhere.
What about additional media such as provided by both Gracenote and Rovi, including program images, trailers, Actor information popups, etc.? (Rather than just relying on TheTVDB which is sometimes not set up when a new show starts, while Gracenote and Rovi seem to have it all before the show is aired.)
Do you plan to go further with remote setting of timers, recording rules, and viewing of the Guide via Apps?
Are you going to enhance the Guide in MC itself? i.e. A "Now" line on screen, some backward visibility of the EPG data, highlighting of program genres with colours, improved navigation, etc.?
I can't use #1 at all, but similar clarification of coverage, type, ongoing costs etc. would help people make a commitment.
I guess I would like to understand if the functionality will be provided as one package though, or if we could contribute to "JRiver TV Plus", or "JRiver TV Plus with DRM decryption".
I look forward to hearing more about it.
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The EPG will probably come from either Gracenote or Rovi. Australia may be part of that, but it's too soon to say.
We will probably also enhance the metadata that is available in the feed.
Please appreciate that whatever we can raise will be spread among our many friends, but the TV world is complicated enough that it's hard to make many absolute statements.
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Will there be an annual subscription fee, or just a once off purchase and then normal upgrade costs?
MC will continue to have a basic level of TV support similar to what is in the current product. So upgrading MC might be enough for some users.
The TV Plus package will be a separate license and a separate upgrade.
Hopefully, that will let you decide whether the new TV work each year is worth your support.
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can I assume this is US only?
It's not our goal. We will hire another developer, so we'll be able to move faster.
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Well, I'm definitely in, though I'm not really interested in the DRM-infected solutions. I assume we'll be able to continue using STB-style setups with it, sans DRM (that would only apply to CableCard style setups)?
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Well, I'm definitely in, though I'm not really interested in the DRM-infected solutions. I assume we'll be able to continue using STB-style setups with it, sans DRM (that would only apply to CableCard style setups)?
Existing features won't go away of course, but CableCard won't let you play encrypted content without handling DRM.
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Existing features won't go away of course, but CableCard won't let you play encrypted content without handling DRM.
Ok. I think that's confirmation on what I'm looking for. I know, of course, that encrypted content via CableCard requires DRM. I just want to make sure that including "official" CableCard support won't require you to put DRM on other sources (like my STB recorders).
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I'm in as well.
For what it's worth - I suggest, that when this goes public, that JRiver be clear about what Countries will or will not be supported with the new TV Plus features (i.e. EPG data). I'm sure JRiver would not want anyone to get upset if they were to contribute then find out that the new TV Plus features are not available where they live.
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Will there be an annual subscription fee, or just a once off purchase and then normal upgrade costs?
MC will continue to have a basic level of TV support similar to what is in the current product. So upgrading MC might be enough for some users.
The TV Plus package will be a separate license and a separate upgrade.
Hopefully, that will let you decide whether the new TV work each year is worth your support.
What RoderickGI said..
It's clear that JRiver TV is a separate deal but not clear on whether it's a one off to buy in, or an ongoing deal to stay with the programme (I suspect the latter).
I'm not sure on how I'd go for this because the upfront inclusion on non-US regions (especially Australia, in my case) is also not clear. What's also not clear is the standard of EPG meta-data that would come with the deal for those non-US regions.
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Would it work better to split the decryption from the EPG? In other words, to offer two add-on packages.
You can assume that anything we offer as an enhanced EPG will have an annual fee, since we will be paying for it each month.
The reality is that there will still be some uncertainty going forward, but that we will be able to move faster. It's just the nature of the market. IceTV, anyone?
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Would it work better to split the decryption from the EPG? In other words, to offer two add-on packages.
You can assume that anything we offer as an enhanced EPG will have an annual fee, since we will be paying for it each month.
The reality is that there will still be some uncertainty going forward, but that we will be able to move faster. It's just the nature of the market. IceTV, anyone?
I would say, most certainly.
Some of the other Ozzies can comment with certainty on cable Pay TV over this way but I suspect that encryption wouldn't really be an option for you Down Under.
If it was an option, I probably wouldn't take encryption on. I'd only go for Cable Pay TV to get Rugby [did you check the Great Escape in the QF against Scotland in the World Cup last night? Can't blame the kilt wearers for being dirty against the RSA ref but that's how the rugby ball bounces ...], Cycling and (for the other half) Basketball and Netball. We do pretty well with FTA, as it is. I simply don't spend enough time in front of the box to justify paying for the privilege.
Thankfully with MC, I can record the stuff I want to watch and (using 3rd party software) cut the recording to drop the ads or simply use the roll wheel to jump ahead. I rarely watch TV truly live now.
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Would it work better to split the decryption from the EPG? In other words, to offer two add-on packages.
I for one would like to see them split. I use OTA exclusively and have no need for decryption.
Ken
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Would it work better to split the decryption from the EPG? In other words, to offer two add-on packages.
You can assume that anything we offer as an enhanced EPG will have an annual fee, since we will be paying for it each month.
I actually disagree. Just for simplicity's sake, I wouldn't further split the baby. That would seem to just add complexity without actually solving much.
* CableCard is going to only apply to places that have CableLabs anyway, somewhat obviously.
* EPG enhancements could add markets over time, but you can limit it to a set of supported countries initially. Assuming that includes US, then it'll include the biggest CableLabs market.
So, how does splitting it help?
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I'm uncomfortable with the way what's effectively 2 upgrades per year feels. My initial thought was to structure it much more like this:
CableCard Etc. Decryption
Initial license fee ($25)
Include upgrades for this in the main MC upgrade.
EPG Sub
Separate yearly fee ($15)
I then got thinking- Now where this model falls over is when you change MC enough so that existing subscribers to the EPG are required to purchase an upgrade.
That's a fast way to hack off users in a hurry, as the perception is that they've already paid once :)
I honestly don't know the way to handle this correctly, but I think you've got to structure this so that there's only ever 1 purchase per customer, per year required.
I suppose you could charge $40 for an upgrade/ TV sub, and offer an upgrade at your standard $25 ish without the TV sub, but that starts to add complications.
Get this wrong, and I think you risk alienating a lot of users, especially those of us not in the US.
-Leezer-
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So, how does splitting it help?
It seems to me that the locations with need of an enhanced EPG may not be the same locations that have support for CableCARD/CableLabs, so splitting it will alter the incentives, potentially in a good way (but potentially not). CableCARD is U.S. only, but the need for EPG data is global (and the need is probably more acute outside of the U.S.).
For example, I'm perfectly happy with the EPG I get right now in the U.S.; it has all the info I need. But I don't have support for copy once content, which would be nice. So I plan to opt in to the kickstarter. Because I like JRiver, I'd probably opt in to both parts whether or not it's split. But let's pretend I'm a rational market actor for a moment. If I'm being a normal consumer and the two things get split, I'd only opt in for the CableCARD piece and not the EPG data and that would be a potential fiscal loss for the kickstarter (but unbundling features can also make customers happy, so not a total loss for JRiver).
But the incentives for the non-US market are exactly the opposite. They don't care at all about CableCARD and do care about EPG because EPG service is much spottier/more expensive internationally. So they're unlikely to opt in for the bundled version at all unless the EPG data will cover their region, and even then grudgingly because half of the fee is for something that's not even theoretically relevant to them. Splitting it up would allow folks who just want the EPG piece to opt in for the part that's useful to them, and it would allow clearer messaging about covered regions.
So I think there are pluses and minuses either way, but the answer probably turns on JRiver's estimate of the interest of it's non-US market, and it's ability to deliver EPG services to it's non-US market. If the whole deal winds up U.S. only, then I think keeping them together makes sense. If the EPG services will be available outside the U.S., some kind of split may make sense just to make the messaging less confusing for potential backers because the CableCARD piece is basically confined to the U.S. no matter what. You'd have to have two separate geographic scope disclosures for the two parts of the bundle, and people are bad at reading carefully.
One solution I've seen other kickstarters use is splitting the campaigns using a geographic split instead of a functional split. One campaign with both pieces bundled at full price for U.S. backers, and a separate campaign (or campaigns) just for EPG data for international backers. Since EPG data is essentially market by market anyway it might make sense to finance the market expansions separately, which would allow JRiver to better gauge international interest/funding support.
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I think one package is the way to go. You just need to list what Countries are supported.
Also I'm assuming that you will probably need to have a new/separate help sub-forum for "TV Plus (subscription)" users along with the current sub-forum for the "free Television" users. So, IMO, if you start splitting up the TV Plus features, its going to get messy on the support side.
Lastly, I think it would be more cost effective to keep it in one package - then you would have a larger pool of subscribers to balance out the costs to JRiver (e.g. a large number of US subscribers could help offset the cost of providing EPG data for a smaller number of AU (pick a Country) users).
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I'm uncomfortable with the way what's effectively 2 upgrades per year feels. My initial thought was to structure it much more like this:
I suppose you could charge $40 for an upgrade/ TV sub, and offer an upgrade at your standard $25 ish without the TV sub, but that starts to add complications.
I think we'll be able to handle upgrades. We will probably do a package at a slightly reduced price. MC with TV+ for a different price than MC alone.
As I said above, there is an ongoing cost for us, so we can't just sell it once. Part of it will need to be an annual fee (upgrade). Or we could just not bother with the enhanced EPG and leave the EPG as it is. I don't think that's the best, but it's an option.
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For clarity,
I don't think we'll need to do anything for CableCard since it's handled by the tuner hardware, but I'm not absolutely certain yet.
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I was a backer of the SiliconDust kickstarter, and it turned into something that I would never use unless they make significant changes.
With that being said, I will certainly back this project...I don't need DRM where I am at (all my channels are copy freely), but I would support this.
There are lots of little things in the Theater View that I hope this will allow you to address as well.
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Count me in. Currently Canada isn't a viable market (no cable cards, only drm boxes) but the gov't is forcing that to change soon-ish and I want the boxes gone
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I use JRiver with cablecard now. The only channel I can't view is HBO, to my knowledge. I get program data now which I paid for from 3rd party. If I don't have HBO, is this "upgrade" beneficial to me? I support JRiver but I also dislike Kickstarter. I hate that 6% of the money intended for JRiver is middlemannned out.
Michael.
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I think one package is the way to go. You just need to list what Countries are supported.
Also I'm assuming that you will probably need to have a new/separate help sub-forum for "TV Plus (subscription)" users along with the current sub-forum for the "free Television" users. So, IMO, if you start splitting up the TV Plus features, its going to get messy on the support side.
Lastly, I think it would be more cost effective to keep it in one package - then you would have a larger pool of subscribers to balance out the costs to JRiver (e.g. a large number of US subscribers could help offset the cost of providing EPG data for a smaller number of AU (pick a Country) users).
That's basically what I was thinking. I was also thinking:
1. It is unlikely that the price split would actually be something like $25/15, but more likely $5/35 (or worse if you count how many users in Australia use the product, it could be $100 per year or something just for EPG).
2. Having a "menu" of choices (do you want MC with basic EPG, or MC with EPG+, or MC with CableCard, or MC with CableCard and EPG+, or so on and so forth) is bad from a consumer point of view. I think it is also bad for sales. Simplicity wins, at least in the consumer and pro-sumer space where MC plays. It is already adding considerable complexity to add an add-on package, so I think the best thing would be to make there be only ONE add on package. If you have to limit it to only certain covered countries, then so-be it.
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IN...
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sounds good I'm in
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Time for a poll? I'm an OTA-only user who would pay for clean EPG data (since I'm doing it anyway), but am not particularly interested in paying for copy-once viewing. At some level, your competition could be a Tivo box with EPG subscription.
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I hate that 6% of the money intended for JRiver is middlemannned out.
they also could gain higher exposure.
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My suggestion would be to do a Kickstarter for enhanced TV in MC Itself, Let contributors have access to it with paying for upgrade. Let it be known in the kickstarter that an annual fee for the EPG will need to be paid. Perhaps that is one thing you could add to Kickstarter. Those that contribute a significant enough portion of money will get 1, 2, 5 year or lifetime of EPG. That kind of thing.
Just my 2c. Less confusing down the road.
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Can an enhanced jremote be thrown in? Eg. Guide data navigation on jremote.
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My suggestion would be to do a Kickstarter for enhanced TV in MC Itself, Let contributors have access to it with paying for upgrade. Let it be known in the kickstarter that an annual fee for the EPG will need to be paid. Perhaps that is one thing you could add to Kickstarter. Those that contribute a significant enough portion of money will get 1, 2, 5 year or lifetime of EPG. That kind of thing.
Just my 2c. Less confusing down the road.
This is pretty close to what I was about to suggest.
First, keep it simple. One package. The Kickstarter is primarily paying for the development of functionality and not ongoing licence and subscription fees. We all pay for functionality we don't use when we pay for an upgrade, and don't complain. Keep this the same.
Contributors to the Kickstarter get access to TV Plus before anyone else, as one or two add-on modules, or just a different download, or whatever. Non-contributors don't get the functionality for say one year, but it is included in the following year's upgrade. This simplifies your ongoing upgrade process, and perhaps allows for future Kickstarter campaigns (streaming services?) without management of all the add-ins becoming very messy. Of course, the TV Plus functionality won't work without a current subscription to the appropriate feature, DRM or EPG+.
At the same time, contributors get a certain period covered for ongoing licence and subscription fees. That period could be variable in the Kickstarter. Subscriptions are managed separately to software upgrades. Ideally, a user wouldn't be required to upgrade in order to be able to use an EPG subscription with TV Plus, as long as they were running a version that supported EPG+. Just like a PercData subscription is required for that new functionality to work.
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If the EPG includes Australia I'll be in - currently looking for an IceTV replacement for Oz EPG...
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There seems to be some confusion between:
* Enhancing the EPG look, feel and functionality
and
* Providing EPG data (through Gracenote or Rovi)
I think some people are assuming only one or the other.
It is worth noting that EPG look and feel has been the subject of MASSIVE intellectual property lawsuits, in the hundreds of millions of dollars over years.
So, you will need to hire a consultant to do patent searches on anything you do (or else just license someone's existing patented look-and-feel).
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Ideally, a user wouldn't be required to upgrade in order to be able to use an EPG subscription with TV Plus, as long as they were running a version that supported EPG+. Just like a PercData subscription is required for that new functionality to work.
The costs of providing the enhanced EPG would not allow us to include it with an MC upgrade. The enhanced EPG will only be available as a subscription. I'll try to clarify the description in the first post.
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The costs of providing the enhanced EPG would not allow us to include it with an MC upgrade. The enhanced EPG will only be available as a subscription. I'll try to clarify the description in the first post.
Understood Jim. I'll try to clarify what I meant.
If the enhanced EPG (EPG+) was delivered with version MC21.0.200, it would be part of the Kickstarter and would include the subscription cost for the first year. Let's say to December 2016. You may choose to deliver the code to everybody in the updates, or only to the Kickstarter contributors. If only to Kickstarter contributors, then there would be two update streams; one for non-contributors, and one of contributors. Or contributors would need to do two updates, one for core MC, and one for TV Plus. Only contributors with an EPG+ subscription would have access to the EPG+ functionality.
At some times after delivery of the Kickstarter campaign, you would commence offering EPG+ subscriptions to everyone else who had MC21.0.200 or above.
Then when MC22.0.1 was delivered around July 2016, include in it the TV Plus code, but again, require a subscription for it to work. Anyone who upgrades to MC22 would get the code, but not the functionality, unless they had a current subscription. Kickstarter contributors would still have a valid subscription out to December 2016.
At some stage you would probably want to align upgrades with subscription renewals. But at the same time you will be receiving new subscriptions throughout the year, so you will never have everyone on the same renewal cycle, unless you prorate the subscription at upgrade time for any new subscriptions in the previous year. Or new subscriptions only pay up to the next upgrade period, but then the upgrade month isn't fixed, but an EPG+ renewal would need to be for a predefined period, with an end date.
In other words, once the Kickstarter campaign was over and delivered, only require a version of MC that supports EPG+ (MC21.0.200 and above in my example) and a valid subscription to EPG+.
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I use JRiver with cablecard now. The only channel I can't view is HBO, to my knowledge. I get program data now which I paid for from 3rd party. If I don't have HBO, is this "upgrade" beneficial to me? I support JRiver but I also dislike Kickstarter. I hate that 6% of the money intended for JRiver is middlemannned out.
Michael.
That totally depends on your cable provider.
TWC encrypts all channels last I checked.
Comcast encrypts some non-premium channels in their lineup, and all premium channels (not all of which have apps).
if none of the channels you watch are encrypted (now or in the future), then that functionality doesn't help you.
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I assume JRiver is aware of current push to eliminate the cable card technology
http://www.multichannel.com/news/technology/dlna-also-wants-cablecard-successor-talks/386834
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllVid
That being said, encrypted cable card support is something needed now and it will be years before new technology comes out and fully replaces the existing cable card based infrastructure.
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if none of the channels you watch are encrypted (now or in the future).
The thrust of your post is correct but I want to nail down a terminology issue, because it get's snarled up quickly in these threads: all cable channels in all U.S. markets are encrypted (other than clear QAM channels which are usually just rebroadcasts of local channels), that's what the CableCARD is for (it decrypts the scrambled cable channels). The issue is that some cable channels (which vary by market) have an extra layer of DRM on them that communicates to DVRs that they are copy once or copy never (as opposed to copy freely). Those DRMed channels cannot currently be recorded or even watched in MC with a CableCARD tuner. It's that copy once or copy never DRMed content that WMC used to support, and the kickstarter might allow MC to support.
But BartMan's conclusion is 100% correct: If you can currently watch and record all the cable channels that you've subscribed to in MC (and you don't have reason to think your cable company will pull the rug out from under you), then that part of the kickstarter shouldn't change your experience. If you have TWC it will (by most reports) completely change your experience as they reportedly flag almost everything copy once.
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The issue is that some cable channels (which vary by market) have an extra layer of DRM on them that communicates to DVRs that they are copy once or copy never (as opposed to copy freely).
Thanks for the clarification, I was a bit too hasty. One other thing to consider is that sometimes the DRM copy once flag gets triggered on for a specific show by mistake, or by choice of the broadcaster. Even if your channels don't normally have DRM doesn't mean they never have DRM.
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Thanks for the clarification, I was a bit too hasty. One other thing to consider is that sometimes the DRM gets triggered on for a specific show by mistake, or by choice of the broadcaster. Even if your channels don't normally have DRM doesn't mean they never have DRM.
Yes I saw this myself a month or so ago when I tried to record a high-profile debate and discovered that I had no recording (and couldn't even watch the tail end live). The channel in question has watchable/recordable before and since.
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... all cable channels in all U.S. markets are encrypted (other than clear QAM channels which are usually just rebroadcasts of local channels), that's what the CableCARD is for (it decrypts the scrambled cable channels). The issue is that some cable channels (which vary by market) have an extra layer of DRM on them that communicates to DVRs that they are copy once or copy never (as opposed to copy freely). Those DRMed channels cannot currently be recorded or even watched in MC with a CableCARD tuner. It's that copy once or copy never DRMed content that WMC used to support, and the kickstarter might allow MC to support.
This is also my understanding.
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If you have TWC it will (by most reports) completely change your experience as they reportedly flag almost everything copy once.
They do in my market. Everything on my cable is set Copy Once except Shop at Home/QVC type channels, two public access channels (they're probably required to carry for their right of way), and some "preview" channels that are basically ads for TWC pay per view.
Even the locals and PBS are Copy Once.
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Could be wrong, but I believe flagging the local channels as anything but copy freely is not legal.
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Could be wrong, but I believe flagging the local channels as anything but copy freely is not legal.
It was never illegal. That was based on an FCC rule (page 30 of the FCC Plug and Play agreement). This rule mandated that all broadcast content must be set to CCI 0x00 (Copy Freely) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Control_Information).
Unfortunately, this entire rule was vacated by the Federal Appeals Court in January 2013 (http://www.bna.com/court-rejects-fcc-n17179871870/). This had some consumer benefits, in regards to OTA broadcasts, because the same rule also enforced the Broadcast Flag (which allowed content providers to set a flag preventing recording, even on OTA broadcasts, that wasn't encrypted but which device manufacturers had to follow). The court ruled that the FCC overstepped its bounds in regulating the behavior of equipment manufacturers and vacated the rule.
However, this also allowed cable companies to do whatever they want with the CCI flags, and TWI set almost everything to 0x02 (Copy Once) within 6 months or so, at least in my market.
So, we got the ability to ignore the Broadcast Flag legally (this was being done widely in hardware, but was against the FCC rule, as the court battle progressed), but we lost the restriction on cable companies in the bargain.
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How does this relate to the DVB-CI+, the Digital Video Broadcast technology used in Europe with a Common Interface and a CAM (module) for Conditional Access?
All (payed) channels are encrypted, with a different technology from CableCARD used in the US which makes MC useless in Europe for TV.
If this is on the to do list: +1 !
This is relevant for at least:
Albania
Bulgaria
Belgium
France
Germany
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Poland
Romania
Russia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
United Kingdom
so please, this is the chance!
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I'm totally in favour of supporting you for the extra TV functionality, although I have no need for the encrypted channels thing here in the UK, I would just need the enhanced EPG.
To really replace WMC though, it needs to offer the 'Ease of Use' that WMC had, especially the way it handled TV recording/subscriptions for series. It grabbed some EPG data OTA and thus dynamically altered timer recordings when previous programs ran late. It also was very 'clever' in the way it could record all editions of a program, regardless of which channel it was on (Some BBC programs are spread over 3 channels sometimes for instance) and also seemed to 'know' when a program was a repeat or not, thus going some way to eliminate duplicates (It wasn't perfect but it did a pretty good job).
All of this also relies on Theatre Mode being enhanced. I know I keep harping on about this on other threads, but it really needs improving to eliminate Mouse/Keyboard use. I'm fine to keep hopping in and out but it is not Wife/Family friendly at all!!
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To really replace WMC though, it needs to offer the 'Ease of Use' that WMC had, especially the way it handled TV recording/subscriptions for series. It grabbed some EPG data OTA and thus dynamically altered timer recordings when previous programs ran late. It also was very 'clever' in the way it could record all editions of a program, regardless of which channel it was on (Some BBC programs are spread over 3 channels sometimes for instance) and also seemed to 'know' when a program was a repeat or not, thus going some way to eliminate duplicates (It wasn't perfect but it did a pretty good job).
I don't recall ever experiencing WMC alter timer recordings when previous programs ran late here in the USA. I agree though that WMC does a great job catching all episodes of a series without recording repeats (with a few exceptions from time to time that are most likely the result of bad EPG data). It also does a good job of catching another showing of a program if the first showing fails to record.
All of this also relies on Theatre Mode being enhanced. I know I keep harping on about this on other threads, but it really needs improving to eliminate Mouse/Keyboard use. I'm fine to keep hopping in and out but it is not Wife/Family friendly at all!!
Agreed.
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I assume JRiver is aware of current push to eliminate the cable card technology
http://www.multichannel.com/news/technology/dlna-also-wants-cablecard-successor-talks/386834
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllVid
That being said, encrypted cable card support is something needed now and it will be years before new technology comes out and fully replaces the existing cable card based infrastructure.
That article does not alarm me as I suspected it might. It says of the new way they're potentially pursuing, "... allow subscription TV content from multichannel video programming distributors (MVPDs) to be supported on retail-bought devices, including set-tops, gaming consoles, tablets and PCs. Under that initiative, all content from the pay-TV provider, including live, linear TV, DVR recordings and video-on-demand fare, would be delivered securely to those devices over the home network from an MVPD-supplied gateway/server." If I can have television programming on my PC without renting a STB from the provider, that's suitable. I do hope they don't mean streaming, though. My DVR recordings must be local, or I'm not interested. Bandwidth is a commodity they make us pay for by the MB, and I don't want to pay twice for the same content.
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I definitely want a more WMC-like DVR/TV viewing experience from MC, and would be willing to pay something for it.
- Must be able to call up the guide as an overlay on existing playback, not having to stop a program to view the guide an select another.
- Stability of playback needs improvement (currently stops automatically every hour on the hour).
- Accessing recorded programs in Theater Mode would be very handy, and the WMC "Recorded TV" implementation was quite good.
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- Must be able to call up the guide as an overlay on existing playback, not having to stop a program to view the guide an select another.
This. Definitely this!!
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How does this relate to the DVB-CI+, the Digital Video Broadcast technology used in Europe with a Common Interface and a CAM (module) for Conditional Access?
All (payed) channels are encrypted, with a different technology from CableCARD used in the US which makes MC useless in Europe for TV.
If this is on the to do list: +1 !
This is relevant for at least:
Albania
Bulgaria
Belgium
France
Germany
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Poland
Romania
Russia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
United Kingdom
so please, this is the chance!
As Jim mentioned somewhere, we will try to be as broad as we can. However, we still do not know exactly whether we will be able to support this at the moment.
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- Accessing recorded programs in Theater Mode would be very handy, and the WMC "Recorded TV" implementation was quite good.
This is easy to create currently (although, I agree it should be there by default if you are billing this as enhanced TV). Basically though, just create a view in Theater view that filters to only your recorded TV folder on your hard drive. I have one currently.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8315882/Theater%20view%20custom%20recorded%20TV%20view.png)
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This is easy to create currently (although, I agree it should be there by default if you are billing this as enhanced TV). Basically though, just create a view in Theater view that filters to only your recorded TV folder on your hard drive. I have one currently.
The pieces that really need work in Theater View are the guide and recording management. I agree that current support for browsing TV that has already been recorded is fine, but the guide really needs some improvement and the current implementation of managing recordings in Theater View is nowhere near as easy to use as WMC's implementation.
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If you have suggestions unrelated to the topic, please use another thread.
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If you have suggestions unrelated to the topic, please use another thread.
Jim, the way the discussion has been going at least implies that the Kickstarter will involve changes that make use of the improved EPG data. Without those changes, the new EPG doesn't seem like an overly meaningful feature as the guide data you're currently getting from Rovi is already pretty good and should be sufficient to implement functionality equivalent to WMC (which is using the same EPG data from Rovi), at least in the USA.
If the goal is to make MC a replacement for WMC, then support for Copy Once content is needed, and enhancements to series recordings are needed. Better EPG data would be a nice bonus, but not strictly needed (again, at least for the USA).
So are changes that make use of improved guide data outside of the scope of the Kickstarter?
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I don't recall ever experiencing WMC alter timer recordings when previous programs ran late here in the USA.
I think the functionality was based on the "Now & Next" program information broadcast OTA in Australia, the UK, and elsewhere. Is that data broadcast in the USA? Maybe you can confirm.
It also could have been in CRID data.
I would love to have the same capability in MC, as Now & Next is actually useful in Australia, in that it exists and is reasonably accurate, at least for extending recording times on late running recordings.
PS: Oops. Sorry Jim. I should have read the whole thread before responding.
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Count me in if there's Australian EPG coverage :)
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Thanks. We're now .029% of the way to our goal.
Ah, will the discount price be $29,- ?? You get $100.000,- (100%) with 3448 participants!
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Ah, will the discount price be $29,- ?? You get $100.000,- (100%) with 3448 participants!
That would work. ;)
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I'd be interested, if it would be of use to me as a Freeview and Freesat user in the UK.
Now & Next is actually useful in Australia
It's very useful in the UK too. If the PVR software adds a bookmark to the recording at the point of the Now/Next banner change, playback of the recording can start at the bookmark, rather than the start of the file. It's a really handy feature that saves having to fast forward to the programme start.
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It will be an add-on package with a price of $39.98 and will be discounted during the campaign. This will allow MC to replace Windows Media Center with an equivalent or better feature set.
That seems like a lot. I'm iffy if I would want to do that because I only use OTA and have no need for added cable card support. There are certainly improvements I'd like to see with the TV support in MC, but I don't like the idea of paying more for that each upgrade. I'm unclear on the line between usability enhancements that need to be done and EPG data changes.
Perhaps if there was a listing of changes that were to be made to MC for improved TV experience, noting those that would require improved EPG data and those that wouldn't, this would be more clear to me.
Ryan
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That seems like a lot.
I was thinking more about this last night. I guess if the target is to totally remove a DVR that people likely rent for $5-10 a month, then $40 a year isn't a lot. I'm not sure what the breakdown is here for folks that rent a DVR from their cable company, vs those that bought one (TiVo), or use only OTA. I'm in the boat of paying $0, so $40 is more than I want to deal with.
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Hi everybody. I am a member of the JRiver team that is investigating various options for this proposed product.
We are still in touch with various EPG vendors and also looking into worldwide variants on DRM for "copy once". We have a view into US requirements, but non US requirements appear to be complicated and in the process of changing.
For Europe, we are still investigating the general area of compliance with "DVB-CI". It would be great to get some input on what options are available now for recording this material, so that we can perhaps get some hints of the direction that other vendors have taken. If you have direct information on what is need to be properly DVB-CI complaint, please feel free to provide that information.
If we are unable to provide DVB-CI capabilities at first release but could provide EPG data in your area, would that be of interest to you? Or do you personally need both in order to be interested in a TV Plus product?
For Canada, can some Canadian experts fill us in on whether the DRM system is the same as for the U.S. or if not, what the system is? We can take it from there.
Similarly, we would appreciate some input from our Australian customers on their DRM considerations.
Thank you for your input.
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If we are unable to provide DVB-CI capabilities at first release but could provide EPG data in your area, would that be of interest to you? Or do you personally need both in order to be interested in a TV Plus product?
Hi Dave,
I think there's still a big open question over what you guys intend to include with the base product and the TV Plus product, as there are (at least) 3 important things that need to be addressed to provide a more complete TV solution that can fully replace Windows Media Center:
1) Better EPG data. The current free data is already pretty good for many of us in the USA, other than season and episode number data, so many of us may not see this as a critical need.
2) DRM support for Copy Once / CableCard in the USA and whatever the equivalent is in other countries. For those of us with providers that only mark premium channels (such as HBO) as Copy Once (Verizon FIOS is a good example of this in the USA), this also may not be a critical need. I personally don't subscribe to any channels that are marked Copy Once, so this definitely isn't a critical need for me. But some other cable providers mark just about everything as Copy Once, so this is a critical feature for quite a few people.
3) JRiver recording engine enhancements that include things such as making better use of the guide data for setting up series recordings, modfying the system tray icon to indicate that a recording is in progress, etc. Better use of the guide data would include things like the ability to record games from the current season for your favorite sports team. These enhancements have been discussed a lot in other threads and my understanding is that Yaobing is currently working on some of these types of enhancements.
So the question is whether the TV Plus package is needed only for #1 and #2 or if it would also be needed to get #3 as well? If the TV Plus package is only needed for #1 and #2 and #3 will be included in the main JRiver product, then I'd have to see what you guys come up with for #1 before I would commit to paying for it. It sounds like you guys are still figuring out exactly what "TV Plus" means in regards to the feature set, so hopefully this feedback is useful.
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Greynolds:
Thank you for your post. I infer from your post that you are in the U.S. In the U.S., it appears that many cable vendors mark programs are protected even when they should not be marked as such. Fortunately, the DRM management scheme we are looking at should be helpful for recording and playing back those programs. You would not be able to do any further editing on those recordings, but you can play them.
With regard to better use of guide data, you would definitely need access to the improved EPG. In fact, we understand that this is a key use case for the proposed project. The basic EPG is just that, basic. One should not anticipate any additional capabilities to be added to that basic function. The data sources we are evaluating do include useful metadata that can be used for setting up recordings and searching for programs of interest.
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Similarly, we would appreciate some input from our Australian customers on their DRM considerations.
The dominant Pay TV Provider in Australia is "Foxtel" with both Cable and Sat boxes. I believe the encryption is IRDETO / NDS and they Do Not (and have shown no interest) in proving CAMs. The only way at present to get content off these boxes is to re-encode the output from HDMI (with a HDCP stipper and HDMI Capture device) or off on of the Analogue outputs.
Their has been a rise in IP TV Providers with their own STB as well but this is a different kettle of fish or do you plan to also looked at IP TV streams?
Edit - Their Latest "IQ3" std supports both IRDETO and NDS
http://www.fastcom-technology.com/en/foxtel-selects-fastcom-for-its-new-iq3-set-top-box
Edit 2 - Foxtel is part owned by News Corp
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Thank you for your post. I infer from your post that you are in the U.S. In the U.S., it appears that many cable vendors mark programs are protected even when they should not be marked as such. Fortunately, the DRM management scheme we are looking at should be helpful for recording and playing back those programs. You would not be able to do any further editing on those recordings, but you can play them.
Yes, I'm in the USA. Cable vendors marking programs as Copy Once depends heavily on the provider. Like I said, with Verizon FIOS (which I have) only premium channels like HBO typically get content marked as Copy Once and I don't subscribe to any of those channels. Once in a while they'll mark something Copy Once by mistake that shouldn't be, but that doesn't happen very often. Essentially, with JRiver MC as it is right now, I can record anything I want assuming the recording rules were beefed up to address some of the limitations that currently exist. And even if the recording rules didn't get improved, I could manually schedule shows through the guide, but that's obviously less convenient.
Some of the other cable providers make much more frequent use of Copy Once and people who have those cable TV providers will definitely benefit from the DRM implementation.
So like I said in my previous post, the DRM support isn't really a big deal for ME at the moment, but it's still a welcome addition that I'm glad to see you guys looking into. For one thing, Verizon could always start marking everything as Copy Once.
With regard to better use of guide data, you would definitely need access to the improved EPG. In fact, we understand that this is a key use case for the proposed project. The basic EPG is just that, basic. One should not anticipate any additional capabilities to be added to that basic function. The data sources we are evaluating do include useful metadata that can be used for setting up recordings and searching for programs of interest.
I guess this is where I'm still a bit confused. My understanding is that your current default EPG option is the same Rovi data that Windows Media Center uses. The only major limitation there is that there isn't season and episode number info available. Other than that, the data is good enough to do everything else related to scheduling recordings. And like I said, Yaobing had mentioned that he's currently working on some improvements to the recording rules and the implication had been that those improvements would be in the base JRiver MC software in an upcoming release.
Perhaps when you get things a bit better defined it will become clear exactly what features will be added in the TV Plus option. If the ONLY differences between the base JRiver MC product and TV Plus are DRM support and a better guide data source, but the recording engine itself is the same either way, it'll be interesting to see what the value add ends up being. Improved EPG metadata would obviously make it possible to do some neat tricks with recording options - it's just not clear exactly what you guys plan to do and where the line gets drawn between the standard product and the TV Plus option.
For now Windows Media Center will continue to be my primary TV solution and JRiver gets used for audio, videos, and movies. Hopefully once you guys are done with the TV Plus work I'll be able to retire WMC and use JRiver for everything. I've been hoping to get to that point for quite some time now.
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If we are unable to provide DVB-CI capabilities at first release but could provide EPG data in your area, would that be of interest to you? Or do you personally need both in order to be interested in a TV Plus product?
I have no need of the DVB-CI or any cable decryption capabilities. I cut the cord years ago. But I would buy the TV Plus package if it included really good and reliable EPG data for Australia.
Really good EPG data would have;
- Series and Episode names for all TV series, without broadcaster prefixes or suffixes added. For non-series programs, accurate titles.
- Series and Episode numbers for all episodes TV series.
- Repeat flags set for episodes and possibly movies.
- A proper description of the program, without broadcaster guff added. This wouldn't need to match TheTVDB exactly, since there are copyright issues, but it needs to be good.
- Correct Genre, Actor, Director, Year, and maybe Rating metadata. Note that the TV rating scheme in Australia is different, so it would be nice if the Australian scheme was used. Not critical though.
- A reasonable selection of other metadata, such as Keywords (including Series, News, Sport, Documentary, etc.), Producer, Screenwriter, and so on.
- Fourteen days of EPG data, rather than the usual seven, would be looked on very favourably.
- The ability to use broadcaster "Now & Next" or embedded CRID data to update the EPG and determine actual program start and end times, and hence reduce or eliminate padding on recordings, would be looked on extremely favourably.
Other TV functionality enhancements would make the use of EPG data and recording rules easier, such as he ability to link from a program to be recorded back to the recording rule that selected it, and hence to a list of all programs to be recorded using that rule. Also the ability to link from any recording rule directly to a list of programs to be recorded using that rule. I would find that useful to easily confirm what a rule is doing, and perhaps improve the rule. The search function while displaying "To Be Recorded" programs is the closest thing to this existing in MC at the moment, but it doesn't quite do the job.
The addition of "Discovery" functionality to use the EPG data to find programs of interest would be a bonus. If that Discovery functionality was linked back to a providers web services or site, such as Rovi or Gracenote, to provide addition information, artwork etc., that would be even better. I'm not into gossip about TV programs, but some people may be, and that is also what they want links to. Discovery functionality may include me defining what sort of programs I am interested in by Genre, Director, Actor, Language, etc., and then having a function in MC that shows me what may be of interest to my within the existing EPG time line, and then allowing me to select an item in the list to be recorded. While I could set up rules to record all programs that match the above criteria, Discovery is more about the assisted review of programs, rather than the separate automated recording requirement.
It would be good if I could browse the MC Guide, select a program, click a "more information" button, and be taken to or shown a page of additional data about the program, including viewer ratings, reviews, etc. I'm not suggesting duplicating IMDB or other sources, just linking to them, within MC. Great EPG Data is the key to discovery of worthwhile programs to watch.
Oh. Plus trailers. Links to trailers. Downloading and including trailers. Something like that.
Plus with the improved Genre and other data, colour coding of programs in the Guide. Maybe channel icons in the guide.
FYI, our only end user commercial provider of EPG data, IceTV, has survived its recent crisis and is back in business. For AU$7.99 per month it provides EPG, Discovery, comment, remote TV recording setting, iOS and Andriod Apps to set recording, view a TV Guide, excellent Series Recording, backup of all recording rules and program selections for recording on their server, and very good integration with WMC. See www.icetv.com.au. Even with the added features I think that is a little overpriced, but it sets a yardstick for comparisons in the Australian environment.
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So... you want more money to get JRiver to the point where it can replace a program that was free?
I have paid for upgrading since 18 in the hope that you would actually get to this point- but now you want more $$$ to get there?
Yeah....
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I understand your concern. We have made many TV improvements in recent versions.
However, adding support for the DRM used by cable companies will cost us a lot for both the work and for the license fees. It is not trivial.
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Hi Yaobing,
How about the use of DVBLink software?
You looked into this earlier (See Topic: TV and DVBLink DVB-T source tuners possible? )
This might be a solution for many European users/ decrypted channels.
BTW, EPG is useless if we don't have any channels to watch/record. The EPG part of this project looks like a USA issue.
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BTW, EPG is useless if we don't have any channels to watch/record. The EPG part of this project looks like a USA issue.
EPG data definitely isn't a USA only issue. If anything, it's more of an issue for other countries as the EPG data they have for the USA is already pretty decent - it would just benefit from some improvements (such as season and episode numbers). There are a number of countries, I believe Australia is a good example, where JRiver either doesn't have EPG data at all or the data is really bad to the point of not being useful.
JRiver is clearly looking to address both the encryption / DRM issues as well as coming up with better EPG data.
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Greynolds:
Thank you for your post. I infer from your post that you are in the U.S. In the U.S., it appears that many cable vendors mark programs are protected even when they should not be marked as such. Fortunately, the DRM management scheme we are looking at should be helpful for recording and playing back those programs. You would not be able to do any further editing on those recordings, but you can play them.
What are the plans around distributed viewing of content? Right now with WMC, I can view 'copy once' programming on any TV in the house via WMC extenders. If the recorded shows are locked to the computer that recorded them with no way to push the content to other TV's in the house then you are missing a critical feature of WMC and that would be a deal breaker for my usage needs (and I assume others).
A critical piece of this puzzle is some relatively inexpensive and easy to use way to push the recorded TV shows (both copy once and copy freely) around the house to some type of set top box or an app running on one or more of the popular set top boxes with and app ecosystem.
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I'm in Canada, and unless things have changed in the last couple of years, there are no cable card solutions. It's strictly set top box only.
When the Colossus HD cards came out a few years ago I purchased one with the intent of using one. However it would freeze up when changing channels etc. I'm going to give it a shot again and let you know my setup experience. Last time it was difficult even for me as IT person with a lot of experience. I know that has improved, but unless it gets to the point a novice can do it, it won't be at the same place MS's software was. I'm guessing my feedback can give you the parameters for making it appealing to Canadian customers.
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We're making a change to the offer. It will be a U.S. package only (at least in the beginning) and it will not include a new EPG. Its sole mission will be to record the copy-once programming used by cable companies.
Here's the new thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101223.0
Thanks for all the feedback. We realized that we needed to focus on the U.S. first because the rest of the world is just a little too complicated to tackle all at the same time. I'm sorry for any disappointment we may have created. Hopefully, we'll hit a home run with this campaign and we'll be able to do more in the future.
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What are the plans around distributed viewing of content? Right now with WMC, I can view 'copy once' programming on any TV in the house via WMC extenders.
Our goal is to match the feature set of WMC in this respect. I can't guarantee that we will be able to do so (yet).