INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 25 for Windows => Topic started by: Matt on June 20, 2019, 09:21:12 am
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Media Center now fully supports the HDCD standard.
It can analyze whether a file is HDCD with the Audio Analyzer. Then it can use the HDCD tag during playback to expand the bitdepth.
Some seemingly ordinary CD's also have HDCD capabilities when played with certain hardware or software. The files ripped from these CD's also have the HDCD information, so there is no need to re-rip.
By default the HDCD field will be set to -1. This means the file has not yet been analyzed. After it gets analyzed, the value will be 0 (no HDCD) or 1 (has HDCD).
MC will report that it's decoding the HDCD in the Audio Path of Media Center if it is engaged:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path
Instructions
The analyzer will not analyze HDCD by default (starting with build 71), so you need to opt-in here if you want it to:
Options > Library & Folders > Analyze for HDCD
The program will also automatically tag lossy files and files that are not 44,100x16x2 as not HDCD (with the latest build).
You can turn HDCD processing off if you prefer in Options > Audio > Advanced > Play as HDCD if possible
More
There's more about HDCD here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Definition_Compatible_Digital
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Previous thread (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,119387.msg825267.html#msg825267)
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Nice :)
I checked few times the date/time of the thread,
Should we do anything now to see HDCD?
How can I see how many HDCD I have?
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Should we do anything now to see HDCD? How can I see how many HDCD I have?
You need to select your files and run the Audio Analyzer on them. Once this is done, the HDCD tag will have a "1" for all HDCD files. You can then create a View to show just HDCD files or use the Search Wizard to show them. The bottom of the View will show how many files are in that View.
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I personally think that HDCD containing files with their 18 bits (if all necessary HDCD tags are involved) sound a bit better than ordinary 44.1k16 data. in my library there are two comparable entries, namely Mark Knopfler's Sailing to Philadelphia in HDCD and in 48k24. It seems that both digital copies were made from a very well mastered analog tape. So my pearsonal opinion on the three version of the album is - CD sounds plainly lacking microdetails especailly in high frequencies, HDCD sounds better adding microdetails and "air", hi-res 48k24 sounds fantastic giving a full perception in both dynamic range and microdetails.
But if you have an HDCD version only, compared with ordinary CD, it sounds better and it's good to have an option to decode HDCD in the JRiver player.
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This requires MC 25.0.70 or higher.
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This is very cool. Leave it to JRiver!
However ... let's say one has a HUGE library of lossless 16-bit rips, which may well include HDCDs, and where the jewel cases / liner notes have long ago been lost or discarded:
The only way to find out what files are HDCD would be to re-run Audio Analysis on everything, correct?
If that is the case, I'd be analyzing possibly up to four (4) terabytes over days/weeks.
As well, the vast majority of non-HDCD files would be re-tagged with the new (assumedly identical) loudness (etc.) tags, correct?
In that case -- in my case -- I'd be mirroring over my LAN and backing up the whole kittenkabootle and re-importing/updating zillions of files (which could take days on one dedicated tablet-based setup.
Is there some way JRiver can enhance the Analyze Audio function to:
-Only update tag(s) if the new audio analysis shows any variation from the pre-existing analysis?
AND/OR
-Only perform audio analysis IF file is detected as HDCD?
AND/OR
-Only perform HDCD detection, and issue a report/list of findings?
Thank you.
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The only way to find out what files are HDCD would be to re-run Audio Analysis on everything, correct?
I too have no desire to re-analyze my entire library.
I am hoping there is a option to disable both the detection and usage of HDCD.
Considering there is probably less than 1000 titles in the wild:
https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=List_of_HDCD-encoded_Compact_Discs
this is not worth the effort especially if one already knows they have no HDCD rips in the library (Like me)
VP
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I too have no desire to re-analyze my entire library.
I am hoping there is a option to disable both the detection and usage of HDCD.
VP
As of .65 you can disable HDCD on playback.
Unfortunately, HDCD detection is part of Analyze Audio and there is no way to do the R128/volume leveling calculations without also doing the HDCD detection, even though the two analyses are completely unrelated.
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Just set the HDCD field to 0 and it won't analyze. Turn off tag writing for the HDCD field if that bothers you.
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Just set the HDCD field to 0 and it won't analyze. Turn off tag writing for the HDCD field if that bothers you.
Matt,
Appreciate the input - sounds like a good plan.
VP
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Turn off tag writing for the HDCD field if that bothers you.
Wait, how? Unchecking save in tag files (when possible)? I've done that and I also cleared out the acceptable values. Hopefully that works. :)
BTW, as a test I did try it out on a few albums I know for sure are HDCD, and at least with one of them analysis determined most of the album wasn't HDCD, even though (in theory) it is. The album in question I tested was Beck's Mutations and only a couple of the songs registered as being HDCD.
Other than that, I'll have to see what happens when I manually run audio analysis. Being able to disable the HDCD analysis on the entire library when running auto-import is the 'issue' here. Personally, I can't allow it to run on my library of over 108,000 files due to how my file backup system works because I'd either have to run the process three times or delete all files on my backup + NAS and re-add them... and that'd take me up to a week to get all of it 'fixed' for no real gain.
EDIT: Okay, that works. I can prevent HDCD tags from being added when importing new files to the library then manually running audio analysis on those new files. I probably have to keep auto audio analysis when running auto-import off, and just do it manually from now on. Groovy.
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Wait, how? Unchecking save in tag files (when possible)? I've done that and I also cleared out the acceptable values. :)
BTW, I did try it out on a few albums I know for sure are HDCD, and at least with one of them analysis determined most of the album wasn't HDCD, even though (in theory) it is. The album in question I tested was Beck's Mutations.
Mutations analysed as HDCD in my collection.
When I installed a version of MC that incorrectly triggered the HD code when HDCD = -1 I selected all 28,000 files with HDCD = -1 and changed the value to 0. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but it was less than 10 minutes. Today after installing 25.0.66 I was surprised to find that I have 13 HDCD albums.
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Mutations analysed as HDCD in my collection.
When I installed a version of MC that incorrectly triggered the HD code when HDCD = -1 I selected all 28,000 files with HDCD = -1 and changed the value to 0. I can't remember exactly how long it took, but it was less than 10 minutes. Today after installing 25.0.66 I was surprised to find that I have 13 HDCD albums.
Hmmm, strange. I wonder why other songs weren't detected as HDCD? I probably should've re-ripped it when I was testing the analysis - I do know I own at least two HDCDs (though I already have decoded versions of both in my library that I did a year or so ago when I ripped them with dBpoweramp and their HDCD feature).
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Hmmm, strange. I wonder why other songs weren't detected as HDCD? I probably should've re-ripped it when I was testing the analysis - I do know I own at least two HDCDs (though I already have decoded versions of both in my library that I did a year or so ago when I ripped them with dBpoweramp and their HDCD feature).
I ripped it with dBpoweramp in February of 2016.
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. And for new adds - I will set HDCD to zero on import.
Is that necessary? I thought the current problem was the fact it was reanalysing files but that the analysis itself was no more work, i.e. for a genuinely new file then this change makes no difference (unless it actually is an hdcd)
Is this wrong?
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Is that necessary? I thought the current problem was the fact it was reanalysing files but that the analysis itself was no more work, i.e. for a genuinely new file then this change makes no difference (unless it actually is an hdcd)
Is this wrong?
Any work is some work, but the overall speed difference in analysis should be minimal.
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We're not going to make more changes at this time. If, after it's been in use a while, there are problems, we'll revisit the subject.
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Hello,
I've tried running "Analyze Audio' on a previously ripped album I know is HDCD.
This was ripped a long time ago in iTunes (as lossless AIFF).
This doesn't seem to create a '1' in the HDCD field.
Could it be that the statement 'The files ripped from these CD's also have the HDCD information, so there is no need to re-rip.' is only valid if recently ripped in JRiver?
And that I can't 'override' by simply changing the HDCD tag to = 1? Or at least it won't make any difference to the sound.
I'll need to rummage around in my garage to find the original disc to try re-ripping in JRiver.
Regards,
Andrew
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Question: How difficult would it be to detect HDCD files at playback? How much of the file does Media Center need to analyze to determine HDCD content? Is it feasible to do it automatically at the time a song is queued up?
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Hello,
I've tried running "Analyze Audio' on a previously ripped album I know is HDCD.
This was ripped a long time ago in iTunes (as lossless AIFF).
This doesn't seem to create a '1' in the HDCD field.
Could it be that the statement 'The files ripped from these CD's also have the HDCD information, so there is no need to re-rip.' is only valid if recently ripped in JRiver?
And that I can't 'override' by simply changing the HDCD tag to = 1? Or at least it won't make any difference to the sound.
I'll need to rummage around in my garage to find the original disc to try re-ripping in JRiver.
Regards,
Andrew
Previously ripped HDCD files even from other rippers should evaluate to HDCD files, as long as the file was ripped in bit perfect form. A recent rip using MC is not required. However, it is possible the original iTunes rip was not bit perfect for some reason or that something happened to the file over time, like it was normalized for some reason.
You can change the tag to 1 and the HDCD decoder will be engaged on playback. You can confirm that in Audio Path. No harm if the file is indeed not HDCD, except you will not get the potential advantage of HDCD.
Try a re-rip to be sure.
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We're talking about making lossy files not analyze since they would never be HDCD. Still talking, but it will probably happen.
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We're talking about making lossy files not analyze since they would never be HDCD. Still talking, but it will probably happen.
Makes sense.
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Previously ripped HDCD files even from other rippers should evaluate to HDCD files, as long as the file was ripped in bit perfect form. A recent rip using MC is not required. However, it is possible the original iTunes rip was not bit perfect for some reason or that something happened to the file over time, like it was normalized for some reason.
You can change the tag to 1 and the HDCD decoder will be engaged on playback. You can confirm that in Audio Path. No harm if the file is indeed not HDCD, except you will not get the potential advantage of HDCD.
Try a re-rip to be sure.
On a different front, dBpoweramp CD Ripper has the ability to process an HDCD-encoded disc, producing a padded 24-bit file that's already decoded. These will detect as HDCD by MC, but will give the message, "Process HDCD enabled, but bitdepth wrong" in the Audio Path during playback (and, I'm guessing, it's just presenting the file as-is instead of running it through HDCD decode).
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Wait, how? Unchecking save in tag files (when possible)? I've done that and I also cleared out the acceptable values. Hopefully that works. :)
BTW, as a test I did try it out on a few albums I know for sure are HDCD, and at least with one of them analysis determined most of the album wasn't HDCD, even though (in theory) it is. The album in question I tested was Beck's Mutations and only a couple of the songs registered as being HDCD.
Other than that, I'll have to see what happens when I manually run audio analysis. Being able to disable the HDCD analysis on the entire library when running auto-import is the 'issue' here. Personally, I can't allow it to run on my library of over 108,000 files due to how my file backup system works because I'd either have to run the process three times or delete all files on my backup + NAS and re-add them... and that'd take me up to a week to get all of it 'fixed' for no real gain.
EDIT: Okay, that works. I can prevent HDCD tags from being added when importing new files to the library then manually running audio analysis on those new files. I probably have to keep auto audio analysis when running auto-import off, and just do it manually from now on. Groovy.
How is this done? Please! I have 426230 files and not one is HDCD....this would take me weeks and probably fry my pc....then as AD says the backups, I have 3...please help me stop this. Or I will need to go back to .54
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How is this done? Please! I have 426230 files and not one is HDCD....this would take me weeks and probably fry my pc....then as AD says the backups, I have 3...please help me stop this. Or I will need to go back to .54
1. Uncheck Settings>Library & Folders>Manage Library Fields>HDCD>"Save in file tags (when possible)"
2. Change HDCD value to 0 for all tracks in tag editor
3. Disable "Process HDCD" in Settings>Audio>Advanced
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BryanC
Thank You Thank You Thank You
Patrick
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On a different front, dBpoweramp CD Ripper has the ability to process an HDCD-encoded disc, producing a padded 24-bit file that's already decoded. These will detect as HDCD by MC, but will give the message, "Process HDCD enabled, but bitdepth wrong" in the Audio Path during playback (and, I'm guessing, it's just presenting the file as-is instead of running it through HDCD decode).
Once dBpoweramp decodes the HDCD and expands a track to 24 bits, it no longer has the HDCD encoding in it. My guess is that a marker for HDCD is still in the file, even though the actual encoding is no longer present. The playback mechanism should recognize that the file is 24 bit and not enable the decoder.
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Coming next build:
Changed: When the program loads, it will go through HDCD files and mark lossy files as not HDCD and files that aren't 44100x16x2 as not HDCD.
Hopefully this lessens some of the analysis burden for people.
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Should it perhaps also mark files that are not 16/44 as non HDCD?
There is the issue above as to whether a previously decoded file should be tagged as HDCD or not. So maybe 24/44 should be scanned. But there is no reason to scan 24/96 and above or DSD files.
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Should it perhaps also mark files that are not 16/44 as non HDCD?
I think I updated my post as you were typing this. I made that change also.
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:D
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I have some Audio Fidelity HDCD's that come up 0 when analyzed.
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Hi,
I have re-ripped the disc that is 'supposed' to be HDCD - The Thin Red Line Soundtrack.
And also a Reference Recordings SACD (CD layer) - Elgar, Enigma Variations.
Analyse audio is set to run at rip. I'm ripping to AIFF.
In both instances HDCD is not detected.
And I have reanalysed.
The HDCD on The Thin Red Line is detected on my Oppo player.
I'm using JRiver 25.0.66 64 Bit Windows.
Is something not working correctly?
Regards,
Andrew
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Can you play the rip in MC with the decoding turned off to the Oppo or another HDCD capable DAC? That would tell you if the HDCD bits are in the file you ripped.
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Try ripping to FLAC.
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Audio Analysis for TOOL - Lateralus is only detecting the first track (The Grudge) as HDCD.
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I updated the top post, but just a note that we will no longer analyze HDCD by default with the next build.
You will have to opt-in here:
Options > Library & Folders > Analyze for HDCD
Thanks for the feedback.
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I updated the top post, but just a note that we will no longer analyze HDCD by default with the next build.
You will have to opt-in here:
Options > Library & Folders > Analyze for HDCD
Thanks for the feedback.
Perfect!
VP
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I updated the top post, but just a note that we will no longer analyze HDCD by default with the next build.
You will have to opt-in here:
Options > Library & Folders > Analyze for HDCD
Thanks for the feedback.
Does this apply just to auto import or to manual runs of auto analyze also?
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Thank you all, I have found six albums which are HDCD which I was completley unaware of - ok it took a bit of time but having set all mp3, dsf and 24 bit to zero it wasn't so long and I now have some very improved auditory experiences. So - Thank you very much.
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New build with all the changes mentioned here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121242.0.html
Thanks for all the feedback.
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New build with all the changes mentioned here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121242.0.html
Thanks for all the feedback.
No change with this new build.
Audio Analysis for TOOL - Lateralus is only detecting the first track (The Grudge) as HDCD.
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This build no longer tags when it marks a file as not HDCD:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,121259.0.html
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OK so I ran (well still running) the Audio Analysis tool, found a few HDCD files, MC tells me it's processing the file as HDCD but how do I know what bit depth is being output to my DAC (ADL Stratos in this case)?
Why do I not get the "Bit Perfect" Sign?
See pic attached.
thx
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Next build:
Changed: The blue light will illuminate when decoding HDCD (previously that would cause the light to disengage).
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Some interesting reads here on HDCD: https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=High_Definition_Compatible_Digital (https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=High_Definition_Compatible_Digital)
Especially on the Scam Part...This is why it would be interesting to know what MC is doing when processing as HDCD if it was encoded as such...There's also a list of HDCD encoded CDs there as well..
And thx Matt for the blue light.
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MC uses the same HDCD software decoder as foobar, which is pretty well documented. It is based on a decompilation of the Microsoft HDCD software. Microsoft bought HDCD from Pacific Microsonics so their software code was probably pretty close in function if not exactly what was in the original chips, with one caveat. HDCD uses two main techniques - Peak Extension and Low Level Gain Adjustment. . Peak Extension allows the dynamic range to be increased by up t 6 dB. Low Level Gain Adjusment allows low level signals to be temporarily increased so as to not be lost in the noise floor. Decoding undoes the boost HDCD also had an option to use one of two transient filters, although there is evidence that only one was ever used. Both of those are implemented in the software decoders. The people who developed the software decoder based on the decompilation decided that the filters were not all that important and did not implement them. So, I should presume that the MC implementation does Peak Extension and Low Level Gain Adjustment and not the filters.
HA’s statement that HDCD is a scam typical of HA. They think that many techniques that the audiophile community users are scams.
Many CDs have HDCD markers but do not implement Peak Extension and Low Level Gain Adjustments. That is because many engineers used Pacific Microsonic A-D/D-A converters (PM Model One and PM Model Two) because they were extremely good units, well ahead of the competition at the time. They are still coveted today. The converters did put a marker in the files even if none of the HDCD techniques were used. That was not a scam, since those CDs were not marketed as HDCDs.
According to one of Matt's post, in detecting HDCD he added a check to be sure that actual changes were made, so that a simple marker would not be detected as a HDCD.
Reference Recordings was the last company that I know of doing HDCDs. They did them up to a few years ago, but I am not sure I they are still making them. One of the principles at RR was part of the Pacific Microsonics team.
The HA list of HDCDs is quite incomplete. A more comprehensive list is on Goodwin’s website, although it does not list if HDCD code is actually used in the recordings. That website also has a more neutral writeup on the intent and the implementation of HDCD.
http://www.goodwinshighend.com/hdcd.htm
If you want more detail of the foobar development, I can dig up those references. EDIT - Added below.
EDIT : Here is a link to the original AS paper on HDCD if you want to get into the gory detail.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020124220637/www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/AES_Paper.pdf
EDIT: If you want to read the early discussions of the software decoders, take at look at these forum threads.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,30999.0.html
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=129136
cjk32 on the doom9 thread is Christopher Key, the guy who got this started and did most of the early work on this.
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Wow! This is a truly great additional feature. To test it out, I analyzed all my Neil Young albums (a logical place to start, I thought). It came up with 29 albums in HDCD (I am counting multi-CD albums as individual albums because that's the way MC seems to count them (for example, the 8-CD Archives collection)). So that's 29 out of 63. Interestingly, the 2009 remaster of After the Gold Rush is not included as HDCD. Maybe the 2009 remaster is not HDCD, but earlier versions might have been. I must dig around in my CDs to see if I have an older one. Not doing any A-B blind comparisons or anything to test out the sound differences, but, hey, these are albums that I thought "Well, they are HDCD according to the CD packaging, but I'll never get to hear the difference because I am not getting an HDCD/SACD player."
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And maybe anyone interested should try The Cars The Cars and Candy-O ........
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The program will also automatically tag lossy files and files that are not 44,100x16x2 as not HDCD (with the latest build).
Hi Matt, I think the sentence above should be reworded to align with this:
25.0.71 (6/28/2019)
5. Changed: Files are no longer marked as dirty when they get flagged as not HDCD so they will not tag because of it.
It should be made clear in this post that files not requiring the analysis won't get tagged. (Lossy and anything lossless different than REDBOOK 44/16)
Thx
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Hmmm, strange. I wonder why other songs weren't detected as HDCD? I probably should've re-ripped it when I was testing the analysis - I do know I own at least two HDCDs (though I already have decoded versions of both in my library that I did a year or so ago when I ripped them with dBpoweramp and their HDCD feature).
Only tracks 11-12-13-14 were tagged as HDCD for this Album (Beck-Mutation). I reran the analyis (by marking the other tracks to -1) and they returned 0 again with the latest beta build.
Does this mean not all tracks were encoded as HDCD?? I understand a lot of CDs were encoded with the HDCD flag but not encoded as such could it be track specific on an album and if so, MC is smart enough to find these?
I have a few other albums like this: Bran Van 3000 Glee (only 2 HDCD tracks) Johnny Cash The Essential only 5 tracks. A Madonna Greatest Hits tracks 5-8....
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Does this mean not all tracks were encoded as HDCD?? I understand a lot of CDs were encoded with the HDCD flag but not encoded as such could it be track specific on an album and if so, MC is smart enough to find these?
Does the CD actually say HDCD on it? From what I can tell that CD was not labeled as a HDCD, so it is hard to know what it may have on it. CDs definitely had some tracks encoded and some not.
EDIT: Also, foobar will tell you what HDCD encodings it found. If you have foobar, that might tell you something.
Matt added a check to look for actual changes rather than just markers. Detection before and after that change may be different.
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Does the CD actually say HDCD on it? From what I can tell that CD was not labeled as a HDCD, so it is hard to know what it may have on it. CDs definitely had some tracks encoded and some not.
EDIT: Also, foobar will tell you what HDCD encodings it found. If you have foobar, that might tell you something.
Matt added a check to look for actual changes rather than just markers. Detection before and after that change may be different.
Those CDs are hidden in a box somewhere in the basement so...No way I'll go try to find it :)...
Ok I see Foobar is detecting HDCD (via Console so that is good and consistent with MC's HDCD tag that was created for those exact same tracks...)
But this raises a question as to why a tag is required to trigger the HDCD processing? I also read on the foobar HDCD component page ("Processing may now be disabled by adding a meta tag "HDCD" set to "no". This tag will completely bar instantiation of the decoder, which has the side effect of barring marked files from the scanner.") ...
EDIT: Trying to auto-answer my own question...For the same reason it is needed for replay gain...Right?
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But this raises a question as to why a tag is required to trigger the HDCD processing?
I think the idea is to only run the software decoder when you know it will be useful. There is no reason to run it on non-HDCD tracks, which are the vast majority of what people have. The easy way to do that is to just check a tag value. The HDCD detection can take a couple of seconds. You do not want to do that on the fly.
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In foobar you can add this to the status bar to get the HDCD info.
$if(%__hdcd%,' ('HDCD - pe:%__hdcd_peak_extend% tf:%__hdcd_transient_filter% gain:%__hdcd_gain%')',)
This would be a nice addition to Audio Path.
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When I ripped Mutations with dBpoweramp a few years ago it marked all tracks with HDCD = 1. I just reran analysis with MC 25.0.68 and only track 11 was set to 1 (my disc only has 11 tracks). 1 through 10 were reset to 0. Downloaded and installed 25.0.71 and repeated, with the same result. Then I analyzed Beck's Sea Change, which I had also ripped with dBpoweramp. Before analysis, every track had HDCD=1. After analysis every track was reset to 0.
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Beck's Sea Change is one of those albums that is sometimes listed as HDCD but I have also seen references that say that no HDCD techniques were actually applied.
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on a similar note...Its strange that all of my Audio Fidelity cds that are clearly mark on the cd that they are encoded using Microsoft's HDCD, when ripped using db Poweramp, Foobar or JRiver MC, all rips indicate that none are encoded using HDCD when analyzed through JRiver MC or Foobar. ? So Very Sad :'(
Is it possible that the now defunct AF might have misrepresented their product?
Update to above...
Sorry for the diss AF, I doubled checked the cd's using my Oppo 105 and the Oppo does recognize them as an HDCD... Interesting....
The plot thickens
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According to the HA iist, several AF HDCDs are labeled and marked at HDCD but do not actually have any peak extend or low level volume adjustments. The software decoders may determine that there is nothing for them to do, so report them as non-HDCD. The Oppo may just be responding to the HDCD markers.
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Pacific Microsonics produced two A-D/D-A converters that did the HDCD magic, the Model One and the Model Two. They are no longer made, but they are still very highly regarded. I know of a Model Two that is available for sale for $20,000 if anyone wants one.
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Using foobar HDCD scanner on Beck - Sea Change, I find HDCD marks, but no processing has actually been applied.
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According to the HA iist, several AF HDCDs are labeled and marked at HDCD but do not actually have any peak extend or low level volume adjustments. The software decoders may determine that there is nothing for them to do, so report them as non-HDCD. The Oppo may just be responding to the HDCD markers.
Yes, your probably correct. Strange though that the cd is internally flagged as HDCD, but no actual or special HDCD encoding is present. I guess I'll just have to wait to they release a 24bit version of the cd...
Speaking of which, I'm assuming any of my 24bit music flagged HDCD by JRiver MC are false positives?
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Using foobar HDCD scanner on Beck - Sea Change, I find HDCD marks, but no processing has actually been applied.
You should get the 24bit 192kHz version....sounds so much better...
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Lossy m4a songs (purchased from iTunes store) show up as needing the analysis (HDCD=-1)
Just like mp3 files they should automatically show as HDCD=0
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My guess why would be that m4a is the container format for both the lossy AAC and the lossless ALAC (Apple Lossless), it'll have to distinguish between them.
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The library does since the Compression tag is different (ALAC) for lossless and (MP4 AAC) for lossy files.
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Next build:
Changed: M4A files will be marked as not HDCD if the compression is set to "MP4 AAC".
Thanks for the suggestion.
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Hi I am fairly certain that the Grateful Dead cd's are all HDCD. I tried one I know is HDCD, I looked at the case to confirm, and it says "0" in the HDCD field after analyzing the audio. I ripped with EAC just recently. What am I doing wrong?
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According to the HA iist, several AF HDCDs are labeled and marked at HDCD but do not actually have any peak extend or low level volume adjustments. The software decoders may determine that there is nothing for them to do, so report them as non-HDCD. The Oppo may just be responding to the HDCD markers.
It would be nice if MC could report if the HDCD marker is there plus if peak extend and/or low level volume adjustments are present.
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It would be nice if MC could report if the HDCD marker is there plus if peak extend and/or low level volume adjustments are present.
+1
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Hi I am fairly certain that the Grateful Dead cd's are all HDCD. I tried one I know is HDCD, I looked at the case to confirm, and it says "0" in the HDCD field after analyzing the audio. I ripped with EAC just recently. What am I doing wrong?
Me too. I ran the MC 'Analyze Audio' tool for all 33 of my Grateful Dead albums and only 6 were identified as HDCD, even though the CD packaging states that others are HDCD. Only these ones were identified as HDCD: Live at the Cow Palace, To Terrapin, Nightfall of Diamonds, Dozin' at the Knick, The Arista Years, Rocking the Cradle
Better luck with Joni Mitchell: 8 HDCD albums out of 9 (not Both Sides Now even though it is listed in Goodwin's High End (maybe a different release).
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What is up with .71 anyway. I followed the instructions to essentially turn off anything to do with HDCD - yet - here is a fresh rip of a CD done minutes ago - done in dbPowerAmp - and even when I simply look into the folder with MC (using Drives and Devices->Explorer) the HDCD flag is already set? (see attachment)
I have not done an audio analysis or anything yet. Just clicked on the folder to view the files.
This means that I need to reset that flag on every track I actually decide to import. Sigh.
Am I missing something major here?
VP
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The -1 is a flag to indicate that the track has not been analyzed. 0 Means analyzed and not found. 1 means analyzed and found. By default, any lossless tracks are set to -1 before they are analyzed.
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The -1 is a flag to indicate that the track has not been analyzed. 0 Means analyzed and not found. 1 means analyzed and found. By default, any lossless tracks are set to -1 before they are analyzed.
Whew! OK - makes sense. Thanks so much for the update.
Cheers!
VP
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HDCD playback is a really nice new feature!
It would make me even more happy, if I could scan for HDCD albums without doing a full audio analysis. :)
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It would me even more happy, if I could scan for HDCD albums without doing a full audio analysis. :)
Not possible I'm afraid. It has to analyze the file(s), looking for specific things that HDCD uses.
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HDCD playback is a really nice new feature!
It would make me even more happy, if I could scan for HDCD albums without doing a full audio analysis. :)
It's required, but you can run it on any sub-set of tracks you select.
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HDCD playback is a really nice new feature!
It would make me even more happy, if I could scan for HDCD albums without doing a full audio analysis. :)
The developers decided that they would not separate HDCD analysis from the previous audio analysis (R128 and other volume related analyses). You have to run both, even though they are not related.
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The developers decided that they would not separate HDCD analysis from the previous audio analysis (R128 and other volume related analyses). You have to run both, even though they are not related.
Thanks. It is my understanding too.
It's required, but you can run it on any sub-set of tracks you select.
Sure, I could just let it scan all my 16/44,1 files. Thanks again.
It will lead to many not needed tags in my audio files. I will have to accept it.
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Hi I am fairly certain that the Grateful Dead cd's are all HDCD. I tried one I know is HDCD, I looked at the case to confirm, and it says "0" in the HDCD field after analyzing the audio. I ripped with EAC just recently. What am I doing wrong?
I have all the albums from two recent box sets. All are marked HDCD and none are being recognized by jriver. I also have dozens of live Dead cd's (released after Jerry died) and many of those do scan as HDCD.
Also saw the issue with Tool Lateralus. Only the first track is recognized.
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It will lead to many not needed tags in my audio files. I will have to accept it.
It won't write anything to the tags if you tell it not to.
Go to Tools -> options -> library & folders -> manage library fields... then select the desired field, and un-check option "Save in file tags (when possible)."
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Another MC perk. Just did the audio analyzer and discovered (or re-discovered) that my Mark Isham Miles Remembered: The Silent Way Project that I'd ripped to FLAC years ago was recorded as an HDCD. Went to the CD rack and there it was in the notes and on the CD: HDCD with a reference to Pacific Microsonics. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I'm hearing actual HDCD playback seeing as my CD player is a circa-1989 Denon DCD-1520. I don't honestly remember if I had been aware of its HDCD status when I bought it. Just wanted the music. It has the "1" in the column...listening to it now and it does sound good. Out of all the CDs ripped to FLAC it's the only one.
Edit: Almost forgot, another "1" from the ripped archives, from the CD John Coltrane "A Love Supreme", but only the tune "Part 1: Acknowledgment (live)". The rest of the tracks don't analyze as HDCD. Strange. I don't have the physical anymore so I don't know what version it is, although some kind of remaster from 2002.
Edit #2, 11 Aug:I actually found my physical copy of John Coltrane A Love Supreme. Didn't know I still had it. It's a 2-CD set from Impulse! released in 2002 with the original studio recording on disc one and a live performance and alternate takes on disc two. Glad I found it as it is a really gorgeous set with lots of detail about the original recording and digital transfers, etc.
I was just really curious about that single recognized HDCD cut as mentioned above so I re-ripped both discs in Media Center to see what the results would be. It turns out this rip got the same results as the original years ago.
It still recognizes (on disc two) the cut "Part 1: Acknowledgment (live)" as an HDCD cut with a "1" in the column, and all of the others on both discs as standard 16/44.1 with "0" in the HDCD column. As disc two came from a variety of original sources according to the liner notes and it's possible there's some undocumented digital mastering done to this and other tracks, I suppose one of the Pacific Microsonics digital mastering units might have been involved or there was some other digital info that got into the cut that MC sees as showing it as HDCD. I don't know much about this topic so I'm probably missing something here.
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Hi
I analyzed all files , took a while (18h).
I discovered anout 2 albums, Dire Straits and one with Blues. I didn't know that.
However HDCD analysis does not hurt at all nice to have this feature included.
Peter
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I apologize if I missed anyone addressing the following question. I just purchased JRiver after having used the trial version for a time. Just discovered this about the HDCD info.
So a CD with HDCD still rips as 16/44.1 but the rip holds the HDCD info which JRiver can analyze and play.
But is there any way to export the ripped file with extra bitrate that the HDCDs are supposed to have (If I understand HDCD correctly).
I use JRiver in my office but not in my main stereo which I play discs and audio from a Oppo 105D. It can read HDCD discs but I want to play files and have always wanted to rip the full quality from my HDCDs to WAV or AIFF files. I have heard this can be done but I usually see it for PC and not for MAC.
Any help is appreciated but I am certainly happy JRiver has this function. Already analyzed some files (Camel, Chris Isaak, The Cars, Tom Petty, Spocks Bear, Van Halen, YES, Roxy Music, etc).
Thanks
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Even at that bitrate and sample rate, the HDCD information may be there. Start here:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/HDCD
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So a CD with HDCD still rips as 16/44.1 but the rip holds the HDCD info which JRiver can analyze and play.
But is there any way to export the ripped file with extra bitrate that the HDCDs are supposed to have (If I understand HDCD correctly).
MC decodes the HDCD data on playback but it does not provide any easy way to send the decoded data to a file. To do it with MC you need to capture the output stream that is being sent to the DAC. That is doable but requires extra steps.
The easiest way to send the decoded data to a file is to use dBpoweramp to do the ripping and decoding.
The ability to create a HDCD decoded file would be a useful addition to MC.
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Even at that bitrate and sample rate, the HDCD information may be there. Start here:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/HDCD
That is a circular reference back to this thread.
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The easiest way to send the decoded data to a file is to use dBpoweramp to do the ripping and decoding.
The ability to create a HDCD decoded file would be a useful addition to MC.
Thank you, and I agree it would be nice.
I did just notice that more than half of my HDCD rips from CDs that say HDCD on them and register as HDCD in my Oppo 105 are not showing as HDCD in MC25. Going to try ripping them again to see if I get a change.
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I am amazed how good HDCD's sound!
Larks' Tongues in Aspic. A totally different experience in HDCD. The sound between channels is so distinct that you understand it isn't coming from the left or right, but 20 degrees from the left!!
Too bad this tech didn't last long! Maybe it can make a comeback?
Thanks JRiver for allowing me to experience it!
Cheers,
Kyle
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Thank you, and I agree it would be nice.
I did just notice that more than half of my HDCD rips from CDs that say HDCD on them and register as HDCD in my Oppo 105 are not showing as HDCD in MC25. Going to try ripping them again to see if I get a change.
Did you rip them in MC? What is the CD?
Could you zip and email a short track to bob (at) jriver (dot) com?
Thanks.
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I've opted into HDCD and playback and analysed my audio files and the player is not detecting any HDCD files. I have a number of Audio Fidelity discs and some that are identified as HDCD (some Neil Young, Springsteen's Tracks) but they're given '0' for their tags. All my rips have been done using JRiver over the years in secure mode. I manually set a rip to '1' and it says 'process HDCD' when I look at any changes. Any advice?
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What is the full version of MC?
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What is the full version of MC?
MC25.0.114 (64bit)
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You might look at this list and see if your CDs are listed. If they are listed as having HDCD detected, then that could indicate that there is either something wrong with your original rips or something wrong with the MC detection. I do remember that Matt added some logic to determine if there was a HDCD marker but no actual HDCD data. That may be the case here.
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=List_of_HDCD-encoded_Compact_Discs
Note that there is an option to sort by title. You may need to do that to get the Neil Young albums grouped together.
There is another list of HDCDs here
http://www.goodwinshighend.com/hdcd.htm
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Well the Audio Fidelity discs are on the list and media center is not recognising them as HDCD after analysis
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I guess your options are to re-rip one of the CDs and see if that changes anything. Or try dBpoweramp and see if it recognizes it as a HDCD. Or use foobar, hdcd.exe or ffmpeg and see if they recognize it. As I said, Matt put some logic in to detect tracks that had HDCD markers but did not use any HDCD features. That may be what is happening. Matt or someone from JRiver would have to determine that.
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I re-ripped the Audio Fidelity CD of The Doobie Brothers Minute By Minute which is HDCD encoded in secure mode and after analysis it is not recognised as HDCD
I don't have dBpoweramp as one of the reasons I like JRiver is because it was one program that does everything.
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I re-ripped the Audio Fidelity CD of The Doobie Brothers Minute By Minute which is HDCD encoded in secure mode and after analysis it is not recognised as HDCD
I don't have dBpoweramp as one of the reasons I like JRiver is because it was one program that does everything.
Would you mind sharing a sort track via an email or firefox send?
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Seeing similar behaviour on a customer's system; his HDCDs are being tagged as 0 even after a recent re-rip. MC 25 114 64-bit. His DAC has an indicator light that illuminates when it's getting an HDCD signal. It remains off, and the Audio path is not indicating any HDCD trace at all. THe files were ripped as wavs in dBpoweramp, leaving everything as the source.
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Seeing similar behaviour on a customer's system; his HDCDs are being tagged as 0 even after a recent re-rip. MC 25 114 64-bit. His DAC has an indicator light that illuminates when it's getting an HDCD signal. It remains off, and the Audio path is not indicating any HDCD trace at all. THe files were ripped as wavs in dBpoweramp, leaving everything as the source.
I'm still waiting on someone to send me one of these tracks, if you wanted to that would be great.
One thing I think to be aware of is that there is a combination of HDCD settings that don't actually provide any increase in Dynamic range or effective bitdepth and I believe we are ignoring those.
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I will be touching base with the customer in a few days. I can definitely get some sample tracks at that point.
Thanks!
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Never paid any attention to HDCD. But started to do (some) new audio analyzing. So far, I found 3 albums in my collection (2x Rosemary Clooney and 1x Mark Knopler).
I still do not understand what the output from MC is. The audio path says HDCD processing. However the DAC indicates a 44.1/16 bit stream output. So where is the improvement? Sounds a little like MQA voodoo (although the output with MQA is at least 24bit).
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Hi I'm on 25.0.114 Windows 10 64-bit
I've recently starting buying CDs again, and a couple of CD I got recently was from Reference Recordings, Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky, and Rachmaninoff's Piano Trio. Both are Hybrid SACDs with an HDCD encoding for the 2 ch redbook layer. I'm using dbpoweramp to rip the disc using its HDCD decoder plugin. dBpower detects that they are HDCD discs and rips them to 24-bit, in AIFF. I leave the +6db amplification option disabled.
MC shows both of these rips as HDCD=0.
I'm confused as to why. I've read some suggestions on this thread, but nothing is definitively stated. So I wanted to ask if the fact that I'm ripping to AIFF an not Flac make a difference? And if dBpoweramp is decoding the HDCD portion and adding it to the remaining 8 bits, then there is no HDCD encoding for MC to detect? (I'm assuming thats how dbpoweramp is working but I'm not sure.)
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Hi I'm on 25.0.114 Windows 10 64-bit
I've recently starting buying CDs again, and a couple of CD I got recently was from Reference Recordings, Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky, and Rachmaninoff's Piano Trio. Both are Hybrid SACDs with an HDCD encoding for the 2 ch redbook layer. I'm using dbpoweramp to rip the disc using its HDCD decoder plugin. dBpower detects that they are HDCD discs and rips them to 24-bit, in AIFF. I leave the +6db amplification option disabled.
MC shows both of these rips as HDCD=0.
I'm confused as to why. I've read some suggestions on this thread, but nothing is definitively stated. So I wanted to ask if the fact that I'm ripping to AIFF an not Flac make a difference? And if dBpoweramp is decoding the HDCD portion and adding it to the remaining 8 bits, then there is no HDCD encoding for MC to detect? (I'm assuming thats how dbpoweramp is working but I'm not sure.)
dBpoweramp has already decoded the HDCD bits when it creates the 24 bit file. There is nothing left for MC to decode.
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I will be touching base with the customer in a few days. I can definitely get some sample tracks at that point.
Thanks!
Were you able to come up with a track I can test?
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Ok, so after going through the thread I'm somewhat confused so....? When the library is analyzed for HDCD tracks it doesn't create a separate HDCD album or tracks, right? It just put a 1 in for tag for those tracks right?
Just needing clarification. Thanks.
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Ok, so after going through the thread I'm somewhat confused so....? When the library is analyzed for HDCD tracks it doesn't create a separate HDCD album or tracks, right? It just put a 1 in for tag for those tracks right?
Just needing clarification. Thanks.
Correct. Then it does the HDCD decode on playback. Play the track and look at Audio Path. It will say it is decoding HDCD if the tag is set to 1.
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Yeah, I figured it out. Thanks. So far scanning half of my 1000 CD library, I've come up with about 6 HDCD albums. That's fairly correct considering I think I have a about 10 in total. Have a lot of "audiophile CD's - MFSL, DCC, XRCD, Sheffield labs, but not a lot of "HDCD" ones.
Anyway thanks for the reply :)
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So out of the 1032 CD's I've ripped to JRiver thus far only 4 CD's showed up as HDCD - 2 expected, 2 not. I've got over 3000 CD's so that's just a third of my collection and I know I have a few more HDCD's
Anyway two of my CD's (Jonathon Butler's Do you Love Me, and Chaka Khan's Epiphany: The Best of Chaka Khan) shows up as HDCD and says Process HDCD enabled, but bit depth is wrong. The bit depth shows up as 24-bit, while the other two HDCD's show up as 16-bit ?
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So out of the 1032 CD's I've ripped to JRiver thus far only 4 CD's showed up as HDCD - 2 expected, 2 not. I've got over 3000 CD's so that's just a third of my collection and I know I have a few more HDCD's
Anyway two of my CD's (Jonathon Butler's Do you Love Me, and Chaka Khan's Epiphany: The Best of Chaka Khan) shows up as HDCD and says Process HDCD enabled, but bit depth is wrong. The bit depth shows up as 24-bit, while the other two HDCD's show up as 16-bit ?
Inline HDCD decoding is only done on the original 16 bit file, whether in wav format or a lossless format like flac or alac.
If you have "24 bit" HDCD source material it's already been converted by another decoder, in theory you get about 20 bits of resolution in a 24 bit sample.
You don't want to manually mark the files as HDCD. MC will determine whether or not the source material is HDCD. The default value for that field is -1 when the material hasn't been scanned to see if it's HDCD yet.
You can test the HDCD detection by changing the HDCD tag for a track to -1 then right-clicking on the file and do audio analysis (unclicking the skip analyzed files option) then do the audio analysis look at the value for HDCD at the far right of the analysis window. It will now be either 0 or 1.
If you have a track you are CERTAIN is HDCD and you do this test and MC doesn't think so, I'd like to get a copy of that track to test. If it's small you can email it to me at bob (at) jriver (dot) com or use something like firefox send to get the track to me. Thanks.
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Inline HDCD decoding is only done on the original 16 bit file, whether in wav format or a lossless format like flac or alac.
If you have "24 bit" HDCD source material it's already been converted by another decoder, in theory you get about 20 bits of resolution in a 24 bit sample.
You don't want to manually mark the files as HDCD. MC will determine whether or not the source material is HDCD. The default value for that field is -1 when the material hasn't been scanned to see if it's HDCD yet.
You can test the HDCD detection by changing the HDCD tag for a track to -1 then right-clicking on the file and do audio analysis (unclicking the skip analyzed files option) then do the audio analysis look at the value for HDCD at the far right of the analysis window. It will now be either 0 or 1.
If you have a track you are CERTAIN is HDCD and you do this test and MC doesn't think so, I'd like to get a copy of that track to test. If it's small you can email it to me at bob (at) jriver (dot) com or use something like firefox send to get the track to me. Thanks.
I'm a little confused on the first section of your post so let me say this, and go from there....
I rip CD's in APE format using dBpoweramp. The rip program has a DSP filter you can set to detect HDCD's upon ripping. Once the filter is set if dBpoweramp rips a CD that is HDCD encoded, you will be notified as shown in the attachment. That CD will then show up in JRiver as 24-bit CD (attached image), with an HDCD code of 0. If I "Analyze" the CD, the HDCD code either stays at 0 or (for some CD's) changes to 1. If changed to 1, when playing a track off the disc, I'll get "HDCD and says Process HDCD enabled, but bit depth is wrong" This is tested with "known" HDCD disks!
So the short of it, I use dBpoweramp to rip which detects HDCD's and rips them as such. Those CD's show up in JRiver as 24-bit CD's, but will say they are the wrong bit if played in HDCD decoding. These are known HDCD's.
And I did the HDCD detection test on the known (as in written on the CD) HDCD disks and 3 of the 4 changed from -1 to 1, while the other moved to 0. Odd. Nonetheless, 24-bit, still say wrong bit depth. That said, no sound issues or defects.
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I'm a little confused on the first section of your post so let me say this, and go from there....
I rip CD's in APE format using dBpoweramp. The rip program has a DSP filter you can set to detect HDCD's upon ripping. Once the filter is set if dBpoweramp rips a CD that is HDCD encoded, you will be notified as shown in the attachment. That CD will then show up in JRiver as 24-bit CD (attached image), with an HDCD code of 0. If I "Analyze" the CD, the HDCD code either stays at 0 or (for some CD's) changes to 1. If changed to 1, when playing a track off the disc, I'll get "HDCD and says Process HDCD enabled, but bit depth is wrong" This is tested with "known" HDCD disks!
So the short of it, I use dBpoweramp to rip which detects HDCD's and rips them as such. Those CD's show up in JRiver as 24-bit CD's, but will say they are the wrong bit if played in HDCD decoding. These are known HDCD's.
And I did the HDCD detection test on the known (as in written on the CD) HDCD disks and 3 of the 4 changed from -1 to 1, while the other moved to 0. Odd. Nonetheless, 24-bit, still say wrong bit depth. That said, no sound issues or defects.
dBpoweramp is doing the HDCD decoding to a 24 bit ape file as they are ripped so the ape files are no longer in HDCD format.
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dBpoweramp is doing the HDCD decoding to a 24 bit ape file as they are ripped so the ape files are no longer in HDCD format.
That's... interesting. BTW all my non-HDCD CD's ripped in APE come out as 16-bit APE files.
Anyway, for the record, another of my HDCD Keiko Matsui CD's was ripped in JRIver using flac, and was shown as a 16-bit file with a 1 for HDCD after analyzing. No bit warnings. I then re-ripped it in APE and yeah, it now shows as a 24-bit CD with the same wrong bit warning so that definitely lines up with what you said.
With that, should I just turn off HDCD encoding for those HDCD's ripped in APE? I've not noticed any sound anomalies, but...
Thanks.
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That's... interesting. BTW all my non-HDCD CD's ripped in APE come out as 16-bit APE files.
Anyway, for the record, another of my HDCD Keiko Matsui CD's was ripped in JRIver using flac, and was shown as a 16-bit file with a 1 for HDCD after analyzing. No bit warnings. I then re-ripped it in APE and yeah, it now shows as a 24-bit CD with the same wrong bit warning so that definitely lines up with what you said.
With that, should I just turn off HDCD encoding for those HDCD's ripped in APE? I've not noticed any sound anomalies, but...
Thanks.
Any of the HDCD's ripped in APE to 24 bit can have the bit turned off.
Even with the bit on there shouldn't really be a difference, it's more the extra step of having to run them through the processor.
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Alright, I'm good. Thanks :)
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Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. Is it possible to use the file converter to convert HDCD FLACs to 24-bit for playback on devices where I'm not running MediaCenter?
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Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. Is it possible to use the file converter to convert HDCD FLACs to 24-bit for playback on devices where I'm not running MediaCenter?
The converter wasn't respecting HDCD but I changed it for a coming build.
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The converter wasn't respecting HDCD but I changed it for a coming build.
Sounds great. Does this mean that I’ll be able to convert files to include decoded HDCD content in the future then?
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I checked that "Settings -> Library & Folders -> Auto-Import -> Analyze for HDCD" is checked.
Did a rip of Tom Petty's "Hard Promises", which is a HDCD disk. After the rip the HDCD tag for the files are set to 0. Shouldn't this be set to 1? If I re-analyze the CD it is still set to 0.
Anything I'm missing, a bug or something else?
BTW, my JRiver version is 27.0.66 (64-bit)
Thanks,
Matt
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I checked that "Settings -> Library & Folders -> Auto-Import -> Analyze for HDCD" is checked.
Did a rip of Tom Petty's "Hard Promises", which is a HDCD disk. After the rip the HDCD tag for the files are set to 0. Shouldn't this be set to 1? If I re-analyze the CD it is still set to 0.
Anything I'm missing, a bug or something else?
BTW, my JRiver version is 27.0.66 (64-bit)
Thanks,
Matt
That's not on either of the 2 commonly referenced lists.
Also, some labeled HDCD's have HDCD encoding enabled but doesn't use either one of the two HDCD encoding features resulting in no change.
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Discogs lists the 2001 release as HDCD, e.g.
https://www.discogs.com/Tom-Petty-And-The-Heartbreakers-Hard-Promises/release/8712707
The images show HDCD on the back on the case, although, as Bob says, not all CDs that are labelled as HDCD actually are. MC added some code to not identify CDs as HDCD if they do not have any actual HDCD code in these.