INTERACT FORUM
Devices => Sound Cards, DAC's, Receivers, Speakers, and Headphones => Topic started by: kr4 on August 11, 2020, 06:58:34 pm
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There are lots of multi-channel DACs available.
I know of 4 currently on the market with the least expensive >$1000. Or are you thinking of AVRs?
You can also use one stereo USB DAC that supports 8 channels and output via SPDIF to 3 other DACS, although an 8 channel DAC is much better
Can your give an example of a "stereo USB DAC that supports 8 channels?" Seems an oxymoron to me.
Bottom line: I agree that the ability to map channels in order to feed multiple stereo DACs is a good suggestion. In fact, MacOS permits the creation of a virtual multichannel device from multiple stereo DACs, with channel routing and run them from an external USB hub. I have done this with stereo DACs that can be clock-linked and it works quite well. Unfortunately, I cannot do this in Windows and I doubt that it can be done in Linux.
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I know of 4 currently on the market with the least expensive >$1000. Or are you thinking of AVRs?
Here are some multi-channel DAC's that can do at least 8 analog channels of output:
StarTech ICUSBAUDIO7D - $34
Creative Sound Blaster X3 - $119
ESI Gigaport HD+ - $170
ASUS Xonar U7 MKII - $215
Creative Sound Blaster Audigy2 NX - $265
Tascam US-16x08 - $270
Essence Evolve II-4K - $299 (made the 2020 Stereophile Recommended Components List! :))
Behringer U-PHORIA UMC1820 - $328
M-Audio M-Track Eight - $333
Tascam SERIES 208i - $400
ESI U108 - $470
Presonus Studio 1824C - $500
MOTU Ultralite AVB (I own one) - $649
Zoom TAC-8 - $650
Arturia AudioFuse 8Pre - $799
Steinberg UR824 - $800
Okto Research dac8 Pro - $1160
Motu 1248 - $1495 (I own one)
RME Fireface UFX II
RME Fireface UFX+
Exasound E38 MkII
Merging + Anabis
Focusrite Scarlet 18i20
Focusrite Clarett 8Pre USB
Focusrite Red 4Pre
Steinberg AXR4 - 8 channels of 32 bit/384 kHz
Steinberg UR816C
Lynx Studios Aurora (n)
Digital Audio Denmark AX32 (multi-channel DSD)
Antelope Audio Orion 32HD
Antelope Audio Discrete 8
Antelope Audio Orion Studio Synergy Core
Dangerous Music Convert 8
Mytek 8x192
Merging Hapi
Merging NADAC MC-8
Metric Halo 2882 3d
Metric Halo LIO-8 3d
Burl B16 Mothership
Ferrofish A32 Dante
Slate Digital VRS8
QSC Core 110F
Midas M32C/DL16
Panasonic UB820/UB9000 (UHD Player/HDMI DAC)
OPPO UDP-205 (UHD Player/HDMI DAC)
Can your give an example of a "stereo USB DAC that supports 8 channels?" Seems an oxymoron to me.
The RME Digiface USB has stereo headphone output, but 8 channels of SPDIF. Connect whatever SPDIF DACS you want and they will all be in sync.
RME Digiface USB
miniDSP USBStream B - 8 channels with ADAT
miniDSP UDIO-8
MOTU 8D - 2 SPDIF and 2 AES for 8 digital channels
MOTU 112D
RME Fireface UCX
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Thanks for the list but, for domestic audio situations, most of those are not relevant. For example, I have used the nifty Merging Anubis but its demands for multiple and different cable interfaces (on a channel-pair basis) and the need to address operations in their Aneman setup environment disqualify if for most home users.
In other words, it is not a problem for you and for others with more technical, hands-on skills but for the average home audiophile, the numbers from your list dwindle to 4-5. (Thanks for the mention. ;))
Okto Research dac8 Pro - $1160
Essence Evolve II-4K - $299 (made the 2020 Stereophile Recommended Components List! :))
Exasound E38 MkII
Merging NADAC MC-8
but the miniDSP UDIO-8 is not a DAC although its functionality is what we are discussing here.
Also, the discontinued miniDSP U-DAC8 is lamented.
So, I urge the inclusion of this feature for me and many others although you (and many others) may not care.
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You can‘t use multiple stereo usb-dac on one Pc, that is a windows problem.
And the routing on a rme Fireface is so simple and straightforward, you‘ll have to try it! ;)
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You can‘t use multiple stereo usb-dac on one Pc, that is a windows problem.
If that is so, it is unfortunate.
And the routing on a rme Fireface is so simple and straightforward, you‘ll have to try it! ;)
Thanks but I am not asking this for me as I own a number of suitable multichannel DACs. I am asking this for the readers of my multichannel writings.
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Hi
I use RME UFX and UFX II (almost same in functionality RME UFX II just a newer generation):
I use it in a home HiFi environment.
Cables are easy: USB cable computer to RME
XLR/Jack to poweramp.
I have amps with cinch, so just get a cable XLR ro cinch or Jack to cinch
If you use symmetric XLR on amps: just use XLR to XLR or Jack to XLR. Its as easy as that.
If you want 8 channels for example you need 8 connection cables to your amps, no matter what multichannel DAC you use. So I do not understand what you mena it will twindel down to 4-5 DAC. I see much more which will work.
RME:
Routing is very flexible an way better than a AVR.
I use it as 8 channel crossover for a stereo 4-way system plus surround plus headphones.
I have no more CD, DVD, Blueray players nor preamp.
The RME does it all, including playing Vinyl (analog input).
Routing is very easy, no pain anymore.
Peter
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Thanks for the list but, for domestic audio situations, most of those are not relevant. For example, I have used the nifty Merging Anubis but its demands for multiple and different cable interfaces (on a channel-pair basis) and the need to address operations in their Aneman setup environment disqualify if for most home users.
I only put the Anubis in there because you tried it. ;D
Most are relevant. You buy them, connect them, install the driver, and select the output in JRiver. Sure, they have other routing capability and you can use many as a mic preamp for room measurements, but most work out of the box as a multi-channel DAC.
Dante requires a $30 Virtual Soundcard (https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard), but it is easy to setup.
I've used Steinberg (2 DACs), Tascam (2 DACs), M-Audio (1 DAC), Lynx Studio (2 DACs & AES card), MOTU (3 DACs), Echo Audio (1 DAC), Mytek (3 DAC's clocked together), and Solid State Logic (1 DAC) in my system. This is all just for 7.1 surround sound. I don't do recording or mixing. They are all easier to setup and use than the simplest receiver. You can pick the WASAPI driver on most for the easiest setup and don't even need to know about ASIO buffers.
Most MOTU DAC's use the ESS Sabre 32-bit DAC chips. I just reset one MOTU back to the factory default. I used the Quick Setup and then needed just 8 clicks for it to work properly as an 8 channel DAC. MOTU has automatic sample rate switching, no pops during sample rate changes, no pops on amps if DAC is turned off first (at least in my system), and even cool tools like a Spectrogram, FFT analyzer, and oscilloscope that you can view live during playback of any channel.
If you want just analog output, you should include the ESI Gigaport (either unbalanced or balanced) and the ASUS Xonar U7 MKII. Both will outperform almost any receiver. If you want "Audiophile" for the MAC, then check out the Dangerous Music Convert 8. It has all controls on the front, automatically switches sample rate, is DC coupled, and needs no drivers or any software.
https://youtu.be/Pd70D0tkF28 (https://youtu.be/Pd70D0tkF28)
I will say that one cool thing about the MOTU and RME devices is that their driver is multi-client (I think the new Lynx Studios Aurora (n) is also). I can have JRiver playing a 7.1 moving on 8 channels of my MOTU 1248, and can also use 2 channels for a Zone in the family room and 2 channels for a Zone outside. These audio devices really leverage the Zone capability of JRiver.
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Nice list, mojave! Thanks!
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I only put the Anubis in there because you tried it. ;D
So you see that I do try to get my audience to realize that there are good alternatives to what they see in their usual view of the audio world.
Nice list, mojave! Thanks!
Right but what most of you are missing is that we are talking about the general audio fan community for whom such devices are (1) generally invisible and (2) not alternatives to AVRs but to simple (dumb) stereo DACs. Those people also demand support for very high (perhaps unreasonable) resolution/sample-rates and DSD. All these lists are reasonable but not applicable to the market I am describing.
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Sorry to say, but I don‘t get it what you want....
Who should use this magical multichannel-DAC?
I mean, my wife and kids can easily deal with the fireface uc for years in our 14ch Home theater. So I‘m not shure gow we can help you.
Can you describe the mac solution: which DACs, also multiroom?
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Sorry to say, but I don‘t get it what you want....
Who should use this magical multichannel-DAC?
Anyone. Who needs it are those who cannot/will not afford the available consumer multichannel DACs.
I mean, my wife and kids can easily deal with the fireface uc for years in our 14ch Home theater. So I‘m not shure gow we can help you.
Use is not the issue. Cost and
setup ease are issues. When I say cost, I include users who cannot afford a decent multichannel DAC as well as those individuals who believe that they want to use multiples of "boutique" DACs rather than a single competent multichannel DAC. (I try not to judge them.)
Can you describe the mac solution: which DACs, also multiroom?
In general terms, MacOS allows the user to identify 3-4 (more?) stereo output devices, assign pairs of channels to each and aggregate them into a "virtual" multichannel device.
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Right but what most of you are missing is that we are talking about the general audio fan community for whom such devices are (1) generally invisible and (2) not alternatives to AVRs but to simple (dumb) stereo DACs. Those people also demand support for very high (perhaps unreasonable) resolution/sample-rates and DSD. All these lists are reasonable but not applicable to the market I am describing.
The Original Post of the previous thread was talking about 7.1 and didn't include any DSD. I said there were lots of options that were most likely cheaper and better than using multiple stereo DACs. You said there weren't very many. I wasn't aware of your more narrow "requirements" yet at that time. :) I was just providing audio interfaces that JRiver users could use for multi-channel output from "cheap" to "expensive."
Because of your requirements (except DSD), I recommended the ESI, ASUS, or Dangerous Music DACs. They are multi-channel, yet only provide D/A conversion and are easy to connect and use. They seem to fit your requirement.
Don't all multi-channel DSD DAC's that control volume convert to PCM internally? RME developer's have explained this regarding their ADI 2 DAC. There are multi-channel DAC's with a high sample rate. Steinberg AXR4 and Digital Audio Denmark (DAD) AX32 support 384 kHz with the DAD also supporting DSD128. So in the end they are the same as the Okto Research or the Exasound. The Exasound and Okto have low output voltage, though, and I would never use it in a high end audio system when using any bass management, but that isn't relevant in this thread. The DAD AX32 is used in many Dolby Atmos mastering facilities so it should appeal to some multi-channel Audiophiles. For the cheaper variety, the Soundblaster AE-7 is a PCI card that does 5.1 DSD128 for $230 with the ESS Sabre 9018.
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Because of your requirements (except DSD), I recommended the ESI, ASUS, or Dangerous Music DACs. They are multi-channel, yet only provide D/A conversion and are easy to connect and use. They seem to fit your requirement.
It seems this is getting a bit contentious and that is not my intention. These are not my requirements, as I hoped I had made clear, but those of portion of the potential market for JRiver who, despite the efforts of many, continue to have a narrow view of suitable DACs . These people would be more likely to use MC if such a facility was offered. That's all.
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These are not my requirements, as I hoped I had made clear, but those of portion of the potential market for JRiver who, despite the efforts of many, continue to have a narrow view of suitable DACs . These people would be more likely to use MC if such a facility was offered.
Can you explain this? I don't know what you mean by "narrow view of suitable DACs".
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Can you explain this? I don't know what you mean by "narrow view of suitable DACs".
I am talking about the "audiophile" market. The people who read Stereophile and Absolute Sound and who follow a wide variety of audiophile/consumer audio websites. They buy their hardware from the brick-and-mortar shops and web vendors who advertise on those publications. I am not making any value judgements on those choices but they are, overwhelmingly, unaware of most of the pro/studio world and, generally, are intimidated by it. Why would you not consider a feature that would make MC a more appealing product for them in preference to Roon, Audirvana, etc.?
I did write up the miniDSP U-DIO8 (with MC) which accomplishes some of what we are discussing (allows stacking multiple stereo DACs via S/PDIF or AES/EBU) and it has garnered continuing discussion.
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I understand that audiophiles are a little different, but I don't understand why you're saying the following.
Why would you not consider a feature that would make MC a more appealing product for them in preference to Roon, Audirvana, etc.?
What would that feature be?
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Oh, I thought it was clear as the reason for the splitting of threads. The ability to route individual pairs of channels to separate stereo devices so that stacks of them could support multichannel output. Sort of what the hardware miniDSP u-DIO8 does but in software and without the bandwidth/format constraints. It has been suggest that doing this is not permitted by Windows but it seems to me something on the order of synchronized zones.
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I think there would be no way to ensure the channels would remain synchronized when doing this as you describe. Splitting channels across multiple windows devices in this way would route the signal through multiple device drivers, and MC could not control latency in the output path that way. The small desynchronization that can occur across zones (which tend to be output in different rooms) is not be nearly as noticeable as when the synchronization errors pop up between different channels of a soundtrack in the same room. Imaging would be negatively affected.
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I think there would be no way to ensure the channels would remain synchronized when doing this as you describe. Splitting channels across multiple windows devices in this way would route the signal through multiple device drivers, and MC could not control latency in the output path that way. The small desynchronization that can occur across zones (which tend to be output in different rooms) is not be nearly as noticeable as when the synchronization errors pop up between different channels of a soundtrack in the same room. Imaging would be negatively affected.
Understood. The way MacOS gets around this is by sending all the channels via the same USB port, letting a USB do the splitting and relying on clock links between the DACs.
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Sorry, still don’t get it...
I use a multichannel setup with 7 Stereo dacs (with DANTE). This is a lot of equipment. And if you set a price limit of 1,000 $, this setup will only have 150$ stereo dacs. That is not highend.
So, again my question: which dac model comes you in mind? 3x Moon 100D? Or 3x Bryston BDA-3?
Personally, if I would start again with mch, I would go with HDMI and a NAD T778 or M17 or Marantz or Yamaha....
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Sorry, still don’t get it...
I use a multichannel setup with 7 Stereo dacs (with DANTE). This is a lot of equipment. And if you set a price limit of 1,000 $, this setup will only have 150$ stereo dacs. That is not highend.
So, again my question: which dac model comes you in mind? 3x Moon 100D? Or 3x Bryston BDA-3?
I don't have any DACs in mind but, when I reviewed the u-DIO8, I tried a number of them: https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-93-minidsp-ripping-sacds
It doesn't matter. The point is to give a user the option to choose any DAC for any reason.
Personally, if I would start again with mch, I would go with HDMI and a NAD T778 or M17 or Marantz or Yamaha....
I do that in my weekend system but AVRs/prepros are often restrictive when used as DACs.
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Aaah, now I understand! Thanks for the hint, I'm not familiar with the U.S. magazines.
And yes, I'm totally with you that it is a shame that one can't use multiple USB-stereo-dacs on on win pc.
And I don't think jriver can do anything against this; it's a Redmond-problem ::)
This was also the main cause for me to switch to DANTE: there're cheap DANTE-i2s modules from switzerland which perform really well. Also digital i/o and analog out available: https://www.micromedia.ch/ (https://www.micromedia.ch/)
BR,
Thorsten
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This was also the main cause for me to switch to DANTE: there're cheap DANTE-i2s modules from switzerland which perform really well. Also digital i/o and analog out available: https://www.micromedia.ch/ (https://www.micromedia.ch/)
Will the Dante domain manager permit the aggregation of multiple stereo outputs into a virtual MCH player?
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Hi
for real audiophiles only PCM is an option. So forget DSD (old Sony prorietary format from the 1980).
If you want real multichannel surround there is no way around but using pro gear, multichannel DAC's. they in general include AD as well. So its good for room correction as well.
If a real audiophile is not willing to learn pro gear, he is just a snob and better keep with consumer AVR and the limitation they have.
Anyway pro-gear is easiere to use and much better documented and more flexible than AVR.
As several people mentioned before there are plenty of very high performance multichannel DAC's which work with JRiver. Just select.
Peter
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If a real audiophile is not willing to learn pro gear, he is just a snob and better keep with consumer AVR and the limitation they have.
Thank you for the enlightenment. ;)
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Thanks for the list but, for domestic audio situations, most of those are not relevant. For example, I have used the nifty Merging Anubis but its demands for multiple and different cable interfaces (on a channel-pair basis) and the need to address operations in their Aneman setup environment disqualify if for most home users.
In other words, it is not a problem for you and for others with more technical, hands-on skills but for the average home audiophile, the numbers from your list dwindle to 4-5. (Thanks for the mention. ;))
Okto Research dac8 Pro - $1160
Essence Evolve II-4K - $299 (made the 2020 Stereophile Recommended Components List! :))
Exasound E38 MkII
Merging NADAC MC-8
but the miniDSP UDIO-8 is not a DAC although its functionality is what we are discussing here.
Also, the discontinued miniDSP U-DAC8 is lamented.
So, I urge the inclusion of this feature for me and many others although you (and many others) may not care.
There's also:
Merging NADAC Player PL-8 (NADAC with built in Intel CPU card and Roon)
exaSound e48 (successor to the e38 Mk. II that adds Stereo DSD 512 playback)
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There's also:
Merging NADAC Player PL-8 (NADAC with built in Intel CPU card and Roon)
exaSound e48 (successor to the e38 Mk. II that adds Stereo DSD 512 playback)
Thanks but the PL-8 is just a variant of the regular NADAC with Roon built in.
Also, the e48 is welcome but ain't yet available, afaik.
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This discussion is really cool: I think audio-over-HDMI could be the next big thing in consumer audio (no video) at least ... HDMI has the right performance in terms of bandwidth and protocol flecibility to accomodate most of the issues listed here
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... The Exasound and Okto have low output voltage ...
FWIW, the OKTO DAC8 PRO can be ordered with output voltages up to 12V.
"... Choose a custom output voltage that matches your amplifier. Available in range from 1 to 12V RMS. Please specify the requested value in your order note. ..."
https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm (https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm)
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FWIW, the OKTO DAC8 PRO can be ordered with output voltages up to 12V.
"... Choose a custom output voltage that matches your amplifier. Available in range from 1 to 12V RMS. Please specify the requested value in your order note. ..."
https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm (https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm)
I would be interested in knowing how the advertised Specs change, if at all, when a unit is ordered with an increased output voltage option. Is Octo changing the internal PS of the unit when ordered with a higher Output voltage? If not and they are just turning up the wick then it begs the question as to why they dont do this in the first place?
Will the measurements change for the worse if the workload of the default PS is increased (is there enough shielding, space between components, heat dissipation..etc..etc).
The website doesn't say what configuration was used to achieve the Specs listed but one may assume it was done in the default configuration.
I see in the latest Stereophile issue there is mention of the Octo Pro being sent to the test bench in an upcoming issue. It sure would be nice if JA could have a unit in hand having a more usable Output voltage option configured instead of the default.
Frankly the default Output voltage is anemic and not suitable for room correction/convolution/bass mgmt in anything short of an already almost perfect room. If it can pull off excellent measured performance with the elevated Output voltage (say 18dBu..ie 6.1v or better) than I might consider buying one.
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I see in the latest Stereophile issue there is mention of the Octo Pro being sent to the test bench in an upcoming issue. It sure would be nice if JA could have a unit in hand having a more usable Output voltage option configured instead of the default.
He tested mine with the standard output.
Frankly the default Output voltage is anemic and not suitable for room correction/convolution/bass mgmt in anything short of an already almost perfect room.
The default output voltage is fine for many users although not all. That is why there are options.
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Thought I heard mention that the MiniDSP unit DIO8 or whatever its called is retired. If that is true I found this clone of it but the asking price is a bit over the top for what it is IMO ($899) :o
https://www.indexcom.com/store/iodigi8x/ (https://www.indexcom.com/store/iodigi8x/)
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Thought I heard mention that the MiniDSP unit DIO8 or whatever its called is retired. If that is true I found this clone of it but the asking price is a bit over the top for what it is IMO ($899) :o
https://www.indexcom.com/store/iodigi8x/ (https://www.indexcom.com/store/iodigi8x/)
Thanks. Looks good.
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Thought I heard mention that the MiniDSP unit DIO8 or whatever its called is retired....
The U-DIO8 appears to still be in production/for sale.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8 (https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8)
The U-DIO8 is not listed on their "Legacy Products" page.
https://www.minidsp.com/support/legacy-products (https://www.minidsp.com/support/legacy-products)
Maybe you were thinking about the U-DAC8 ?
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The U-DIO8 appears to still be in production/for sale.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8 (https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8)
The U-DIO8 is not listed on their "Legacy Products" page.
https://www.minidsp.com/support/legacy-products (https://www.minidsp.com/support/legacy-products)
Maybe you were thinking about the U-DAC8 ?
My mistake, must have read it wrong
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I'm considering either Lynx Aurora 8 or Okto research DAC8Pro for a home theater setup with JRiver.
I already have a Lynx AES16e card. Not sure if that's needed though with the DAC8Pro which has USB as well.
https://www.lynxstudio.com/products/aes16e/
Is it possible to measure the response with REW with the Okto research DAC8Pro with JRiver EQ/crossover settings? DAC8Pro doesn't seem to have any analogue inputs.
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I'm considering either Lynx Aurora 8 or Okto research DAC8Pro for a home theater setup with JRiver.
I already have a Lynx AES16e card. Not sure if that's needed though with the DAC8Pro which has USB as well.
https://www.lynxstudio.com/products/aes16e/
Is it possible to measure the response with REW with the Okto research DAC8Pro with JRiver EQ/crossover settings? DAC8Pro doesn't seem to have any analogue inputs.
I had a Lynx Aurora 16 TB for a while in my home theater. It has loud pops through the speakers if you turn off the Aurora before the amps. You have to set a single sample rate and use it, but that is what I do anyway. I switched to a MOTU 1248 and liked it better. The MOTU is multi-client and lets you measure REW through the input/output of the audio device. Just this week I received an RME M-32 Pro DA which I will now be using in my 11.6.6 theater.
You don't need the AES16e card for the DAC8Pro, but you can use it. It will be easier to just use USB. You will need another input card or USB microphone to measure with REW.
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I had a Lynx Aurora 16 TB for a while in my home theater. It has loud pops through the speakers if you turn off the Aurora before the amps. You have to set a single sample rate and use it, but that is what I do anyway. I switched to a MOTU 1248 and liked it better. The MOTU is multi-client and lets you measure REW through the input/output of the audio device. Just this week I received an RME M-32 Pro DA which I will now be using in my 11.6.6 theater.
You don't need the AES16e card for the DAC8Pro, but you can use it. It will be easier to just use USB. You will need another input card or USB microphone to measure with REW.
Thanks. I can live with some pops if it's only when turned off/on in wrong direction. Aurora 8 doesn't cost that much used. Motu 1248 looks very nice, but perhaps a bit too pricey buying it new. Will look for it used though.
How can you combine another input card with the DAC8Pro?
USB mic is an option I haven't thought about. I don't think you can signal align perfectly with it, but I can do that first with a separate DSP and simply copy the settings.
What's nice about the DAC8Pro is the fact that it has a screen and is remote controlled. I prefer being able to see the volume when changing it. But it's really a serious design flaw to not include inputs!
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I see now that the Motu 1248 actually has 12 output channels. That's definitive benefit. Also the fact that is has mic inputs so I don't need an external soundcard for measurements. The drawbacks are no possibility to remove the LED "show", perhaps no trigger input solution (?) and lack of visible volume control/remote. Latter is the biggest drawback and where the Okto research is a better solution.
I don't know how Motu 1248 measures but will email Motu and ask for proper data. While the use of ESS SABRE32 is a good sign, it's really the implementation that matters. I desire a unit with very low distortion and transparent sounding. That doesn't exist in surround receivers/processors, which I'm aware of.
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I have motu 1248 and exasound e38mk2
Motu is nice but clearly not at the level of the exasound.
I am only use 1248 to record and play the signal measurement.
I see now that the Motu 1248 actually has 12 output channels. That's definitive benefit. Also the fact that is has mic inputs so I don't need an external soundcard for measurements. The drawbacks are no possibility to remove the LED "show", perhaps no trigger input solution (?) and lack of visible volume control/remote. Latter is the biggest drawback and where the Okto research is a better solution.
I don't know how Motu 1248 measures but will email Motu and ask for proper data. While the use of ESS SABRE32 is a good sign, it's really the implementation that matters. I desire a unit with very low distortion and transparent sounding. That doesn't exist in surround receivers/processors, which I'm aware of.
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I have motu 1248 and exasound e38mk2
Motu is nice but clearly not at the level of the exasound.
I am only use 1248 to record and play the signal measurement.
Have you done a AB test with level matching?
What's the perceived difference?
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Unnfortunately Motu didn't offer anything else then the specs on page 89 in their manual.
https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/thunderbolt/1248_8M_16A_Switch_User_Guide.pdf
@mojave:
Did you ever do a proper AB test with Motu 1248 vs either Lynx Aurora or another soundcard that we know measures well?
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I got the Motu 1284.
Question:
How do I know what output channels from the Moto goes to L/R, center, SL/SR and RL/RR?
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I got the Motu 1284.
Question:
How do I know what output channels from the Moto goes to L/R, center, SL/SR and RL/RR?
It is down to how you configure it in the motu mixer
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It is down to how you configure it in the motu mixer
Can you explain further? And how does JRiver read the different outputs?
Not sure if the picture of the routing is seen below, but I have USB input ticket all off the outputs. Seems like I can change name on the outputs.
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Can you explain further? And how does JRiver read the different outputs?
Not sure if the picture of the routing is seen below, but I have USB input ticket all off the outputs. Seems like I can change name on the outputs.
expand the relevant section with the little chevron at the top and you'll see the per channel routing
(https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=126507.0;attach=37729;image)
to jriver, the motu is just some number of channels and the offset in the output device (options > audio > device) control what channel 1 (i.e. L usually) out of jriver maps to on the device
(https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=126507.0;attach=37730;image)
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Thanks.
I found out that JRiver used the following channels by looking at the Motu mixer and playing different material:
Left - 1
Right - 2
Center - 3
Subwoofer - 4
Rear left - 5
Rear right - 6
Surround left - 7
Surround right - 8
When I knew that and guess that's what I was wondering about, I could route the channels in Motu to desired physical outputs.
Was also able to do crossover for active front by copying left and right to surround left and right.
Seems to work fine now.
Questions:
1. What's the better of way of controlling the volume? I also use other programs like Netflix app, YouTube, Spotify, etc.
2. How can I measure the settings (crossover, EQ, etc) in JRiver in REW now?
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See https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Verifying_DSP_Studio#Windows:_ASIO_Line_In
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See https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Verifying_DSP_Studio#Windows:_ASIO_Line_In
Thank you. This looked complicated and a bit confusing with Linux explanation in between. Hopefully I can figure it out.
Found out that internal JRiver volume control works with everything when I use JRiver in Windows audio settings, so that's taken care of. Just wish I had an external display with a remote.
Sound quality of Motu 1248 is great and the routing is easy to comprehend. Yesterday I set up the subwoofer channel to go out from either Coax or Toslink to an external DSP for multiple subwoofers with different crossovers. It may be possible to drop the external DSP and do this with JRiver and Motu, but for now this works very well.
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If you feel like experimenting, Voicemeeter has a set of virtual sound mixers that work pretty well.
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I know of 4 currently on the market with the least expensive >$1000. Or are you thinking of AVRs?Can your give an example of a "stereo USB DAC that supports 8 channels?" Seems an oxymoron to me.
Bottom line: I agree that the ability to map channels in order to feed multiple stereo DACs is a good suggestion. In fact, MacOS permits the creation of a virtual multichannel device from multiple stereo DACs, with channel routing and run them from an external USB hub. I have done this with stereo DACs that can be clock-linked and it works quite well. Unfortunately, I cannot do this in Windows and I doubt that it can be done in Linux.
Stereo by definition (from old days ) is multichannel , not just 2 channels.
There used to be Mono and Stereo (2ch , 3ch then Quad)
Have fun
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Hi,
I am trying to get 3 DACs to play 5.1 and I know there has been some of these discussed in various forum but specifically I want them to do DSD. Looks like. Mytek DAC were the only ones being done with ASIO but that was a while back. anyone here somewhere still know how to do this? The reason I do this is I prefer my own selection of non-sigma-Delta DACs for both PCM and DSD. I can do on core audio via Mac which works quite ok but I can only do in PCM mode as Core Audio resampled it to PCM. Looks like ASIO is the only one that can do native DSD. I also think I can clock externally somehow my DACs together.
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I had a Lynx Aurora 16 TB for a while in my home theater. It has loud pops through the speakers if you turn off the Aurora before the amps. You have to set a single sample rate and use it, but that is what I do anyway. I switched to a MOTU 1248 and liked it better. The MOTU is multi-client and lets you measure REW through the input/output of the audio device. Just this week I received an RME M-32 Pro DA which I will now be using in my 11.6.6 theater.
You don't need the AES16e card for the DAC8Pro, but you can use it. It will be easier to just use USB. You will need another input card or USB microphone to measure with REW.
Hi mojave. I need some assistance how to measure the system with REW through JRiver with the Motu 1248. I've read your article, but things are still unclear.
Setup consist of two active 2-way speakers, subwoofers and two passive surrounds. I'm using the crossover filters in REW for active the 2-way speakers, but a separate DSP for the subwoofers.
Motu 1248 outputs is as follows:
Channel 1: Left tweeter/midrange (active 2-way)
Channel 2: Right tweeter/midrange (active 2-way)
Channel 3: Left midbass (active 2-way)
Channel 4: Right midbass (active 2-way)
Channel 7: Left surround
Channel 8: Right surround
Optical out to a DSP for multiple subwoofers.
I've attached pictures of routing in Motu, JRiver settings and REW settings.
Obviously I use a mic connected to the Motu 1248 and use this channel as Input 1 in REW.
1. If Asio is to be used, what outputs do I use in REW?
2. What settings are to be used in Asio line-in under "Open live"? And what does "channel offset" represent?
3. If I want to run loopback in order to time align, what settings do I need to use for this?
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This is illustrated in the link I posted previously
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,126507.msg894281.html#msg894281
You route from rew to some channels of your choosing which you then loopback in the Motu as inputs, you then open asio live in on those channels which will then play the sweep through MC and out to your speakers.
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3x Audio-gd DACs would work, they do have some DAC < $1000
Sorry, still don’t get it...
I use a multichannel setup with 7 Stereo dacs (with DANTE). This is a lot of equipment. And if you set a price limit of 1,000 $, this setup will only have 150$ stereo dacs. That is not highend.
So, again my question: which dac model comes you in mind? 3x Moon 100D? Or 3x Bryston BDA-3?
Personally, if I would start again with mch, I would go with HDMI and a NAD T778 or M17 or Marantz or Yamaha....
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I only put the Anubis in there because you tried it. ;D
Most are relevant. You buy them, connect them, install the driver, and select the output in JRiver. Sure, they have other routing capability and you can use many as a mic preamp for room measurements, but most work out of the box as a multi-channel DAC.
Dante requires a $30 Virtual Soundcard (https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-virtual-soundcard), but it is easy to setup.
I've used Steinberg (2 DACs), Tascam (2 DACs), M-Audio (1 DAC), Lynx Studio (2 DACs & AES card), MOTU (3 DACs), Echo Audio (1 DAC), Mytek (3 DAC's clocked together), and Solid State Logic (1 DAC) in my system. This is all just for 7.1 surround sound. I don't do recording or mixing. They are all easier to setup and use than the simplest receiver. You can pick the WASAPI driver on most for the easiest setup and don't even need to know about ASIO buffers.
Most MOTU DAC's use the ESS Sabre 32-bit DAC chips. I just reset one MOTU back to the factory default. I used the Quick Setup and then needed just 8 clicks for it to work properly as an 8 channel DAC. MOTU has automatic sample rate switching, no pops during sample rate changes, no pops on amps if DAC is turned off first (at least in my system), and even cool tools like a Spectrogram, FFT analyzer, and oscilloscope that you can view live during playback of any channel.
If you want just analog output, you should include the ESI Gigaport (either unbalanced or balanced) and the ASUS Xonar U7 MKII. Both will outperform almost any receiver. If you want "Audiophile" for the MAC, then check out the Dangerous Music Convert 8. It has all controls on the front, automatically switches sample rate, is DC coupled, and needs no drivers or any software.
https://youtu.be/Pd70D0tkF28 (https://youtu.be/Pd70D0tkF28)
I will say that one cool thing about the MOTU and RME devices is that their driver is multi-client (I think the new Lynx Studios Aurora (n) is also). I can have JRiver playing a 7.1 moving on 8 channels of my MOTU 1248, and can also use 2 channels for a Zone in the family room and 2 channels for a Zone outside. These audio devices really leverage the Zone capability of JRiver.
My 5.1 home system build is long overdue, b
but before I begin to narrow my choices on speakers to audition, I really need to settle on a multichannel DAC.
Unfortunately, there seems to be very few MCH models, either from the consumer or pro audio market, which will likely sound as good as Benchmark DACs or better. The Exasound and Okto MCH DACs are probably the best sounding consumer models. But the top Exasound model s88 has DSD, server and other functionality that I wouldn't want to pay $7.5K for. The e68 would have worked for me if it had the balanced outputs I need.
The discontinued e38MK2 would be the almost perfect solution if I can find one with the optional XLRs, or if Exasound will add them for me.
However, in his review of the Topping Pre90 preamp,
https://www.stereophile.com/content/topping-pre90-line-preamplifier, KR mentions that the DIRAC 3 he uses for room correction imposes a 20db gain loss. And even with its balanced outputs the e38MK2 will only supply ~ 4V. Would that be enough to drive most power amps under DIRAC 3? Note that this amp has adjustable input sensitivity. https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/rel-subwoofers-with-ahb2-power-amplifier
If yes, then if I use two such stereo amps for the front and side speakers and center speaker then the Exasound e38MK2 DAC looks like the ideal choice.
However, if 7V or more is required then the Okto Pro 8 DAC with the optional output voltage upgrade is the only MCH DAC option from the consumer market.
OTOH, I believe that you implied that the best sounding alternative from the pro audio market is probably https://www.dangerousmusic.com/product/convert-8
Here's the manual https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e15d4fba20f9d0f914ce7aa/t/5ecbdb7029db2e1e76c78fc9/1590418293088/convert-8-manual.pdf
But no balanced output voltage for all channels is shown in the specs.
My new HTPC https://www.steigerdynamics.com/ has an Intel Rocket Lake Xeon CPU with ECC memory and LG BD drive running Windows 10. The routine is to play my BD movies on my pc via JRiver, which decodes the DTS MA and outputs the PCM audio to the DAC via USB. But the manual says that the Dangerous Convert 8's USB input "currently" runs only on MAC OS. I can email info@dangerousmusic.com about their plans for Windows, if any.
However, the Convert 8 DAC apparently has no wireless volume/mute remote and would be useless to me without one.
Regarding room correction compatability, will the Exasound e38 DAC's 4 volt balanced outputs adequately compensate for DIRAC 3's 20db gain loss?
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My 5.1 home system build is long overdue, b
but before I begin to narrow my choices on speakers to audition, I really need to settle on a multichannel DAC.
Unfortunately, there seems to be very few MCH models, either from the consumer or pro audio market, which will likely sound as good as Benchmark DACs or better. The Exasound and Okto MCH DACs are probably the best sounding consumer models. But the top Exasound model s88 has DSD, server and other functionality that I wouldn't want to pay $7.5K for. The e68 would have worked for me if it had the balanced outputs I need.
The discontinued e38MK2 would be the almost perfect solution if I can find one with the optional XLRs, or if Exasound will add them for me.
However, in his review of the Topping Pre90 preamp,
https://www.stereophile.com/content/topping-pre90-line-preamplifier, KR mentions that the DIRAC 3 he uses for room correction imposes a 20db gain loss. And even with its balanced outputs the e38MK2 will only supply ~ 4V. Would that be enough to drive most power amps under DIRAC 3? Note that this amp has adjustable input sensitivity. https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/rel-subwoofers-with-ahb2-power-amplifier
If yes, then if I use two such stereo amps for the front and side speakers and center speaker then the Exasound e38MK2 DAC looks like the ideal choice.
However, if 7V or more is required then the Okto Pro 8 DAC with the optional output voltage upgrade is the only MCH DAC option from the consumer market.
OTOH, I believe that you implied that the best sounding alternative from the pro audio market is probably https://www.dangerousmusic.com/product/convert-8
Here's the manual https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e15d4fba20f9d0f914ce7aa/t/5ecbdb7029db2e1e76c78fc9/1590418293088/convert-8-manual.pdf
But no balanced output voltage for all channels is shown in the specs.
My new HTPC https://www.steigerdynamics.com/ has an Intel Rocket Lake Xeon CPU with ECC memory and LG BD drive running Windows 10. The routine is to play my BD movies on my pc via JRiver, which decodes the DTS MA and outputs the PCM audio to the DAC via USB. But the manual says that the Dangerous Convert 8's USB input "currently" runs only on MAC OS. I can email info@dangerousmusic.com about their plans for Windows, if any.
However, the Convert 8 DAC apparently has no wireless volume/mute remote and would be useless to me without one.
Regarding room correction compatability, will the Exasound e38 DAC's 4 volt balanced outputs adequately compensate for DIRAC 3's 20db gain loss?
The Convert 8 seems like a nice unit. You're running into the problems I did with volume control too. Dangerous actually makes a product for that too, with the unique ability to scale beyond 8ch (useful for atmos, active speakers, or bass management).
The Topping Dm7 is serving me really quite well. It's a fantastic 8 channel DAC with a built in volume control. 8ch frankly isn't enough in an ideal world but it's converters are absurdly good for the price. It works with Windows (you need Topping's driver for 8ch) and out of the box is supported on pretty much any modern linux distro. It'll do 4 or 5v btw.
Beyond that, the Merging units are in a class of their own. They're a bit of a total system changer as they're designed for network audio rather than USB. You can scale them as well due to the shared network clock reference. I don't actually think I could ever go back from using AES67 as a transport (I still have it work with USB D/A however), it's amazing IMO
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Just this week I received an RME M-32 Pro DA which I will now be using in my 11.6.6 theater.
Hi Mojave,
Are you still using the RME M-32 Pro DA in your theater?
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Obviously I use a mic connected to the Motu 1248 and use this channel as Input 1 in REW.
1. If Asio is to be used, what outputs do I use in REW?
It is a lot easier to use a USB microphone. Just connect it to PC and choose as input in REW. Works seamlessly with MOTU ASIO driver.
I have had the MOTU 1248 for many years now, since it became available. It offers very good sound quality in my opinion, but don't use the built in volume control for analog outputs in MOTU 1248. It ruins audio quality, even though MOTU engineers claim it does'nt. The MOTU trim settings for analog output levels is a lot better, and I hve used it for level matching of channels in my 6 channel line level XO. Eventually, I handle all volume control, matching af volume between channels and delay setting for speaker channels efficiently in JRiver DSP. So now, I only use the 1248 as a pure multichannel DAC.