INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 28 for Windows => Topic started by: HPBEME on November 17, 2021, 09:49:51 pm
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The Advanced (Experimental) tag window currently has only a single option in the menu… Customize (which opens the dialog to customize your tag groups). I request that the following options be added to enhance usability:
*Collapse All Tag Groups
*Expand All Tag Groups
*Toggle Auto-Expand/Collapse
-Currently when you expand a tag group, it stays open/closed until you close/open it (thus the first 2 items in the list).
-This option would automatically collapse the currently open tab group when you click on a different tag group header to expand it
-This option would toggle between the current “stay open” behavior and using an auto-expand/collapse workflow
-This behavior is already standard for the Panes View, so I presume it can be incorporated in the Tag Window too
-e.g., you’ve defined multiple Genre’s with sub-styles, and when you click on a different Genre, the open one collapses, and the newly selected Genre expands to show all its sub-styles
*Toggle Tag Window Style
-This would toggle between the Standard Tag Window (where all tags are sorted alphabetically) and the Advanced Tag Window (where you customize the tags into groups and order tags as desired)
-This menu item would be added to both the Standard and Advanced Tag Window menu list.
-Having this in the menu would also expose the Advanced Tag Window functionality that many users may never become aware of otherwise.
-I only discovered the Advanced Tag Window when I stumbled across it looking for something completely unrelated, and a post mentioned using “shift-click” to activate the "other" Tag Window.
-I remember thinking… What? What other Tag Window?… and I had been using MC for over a decade at that point.
-For users who never come to the forum (which I imagine is the vast majority of MC users), they may never discover this awesome tagging interface… and even then, I only found it on the forum by dumb luck.
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-I only discovered the Advanced Tag Window when I stumbled across it looking for something completely unrelated, and a post mentioned using “shift-click” to activate the "other" Tag Window.
-I remember thinking… What? What other Tag Window?… and I had been using MC for over a decade at that point.
+1 for *Toggle Tag Window Style (but I prefer the label "Standard View")
Thanks for that! I only discovered the Standard Tag Window today after reading this post - I've been stuck in the Advanced Tag Window for as long as I can remember (granted, not a high bar). :)
Also add "Advanced View" to the little box menu in the Standard Tag Window.
Related: Show two toggle tags tooltips when hovering over the tag window icon (added to my top menu bar):
Advanced Tag (Alt + Enter) for Advanced show/hide
Standard Tag (Shift + Enter) for Standard show/hide
Tag icon remembers the last used style, as it does now.
Note: It seems current functions of (Shift + Enter) are duplicated by (Control + Enter), so the former should be available for re-assignment.
Currently (Shift + click tag window icon) shows Standard Tag Window.
For completeness and symmetry, add (Alt + click tag window icon) shows Advanced Tag Window.
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I must have switched on the Advanced Tage Editor a long time ago because I didn't even realize the Standard version was still even there.
But since we're on the subject, I think another option the Advanced editor needs is a Refresh button (or at least be updated by the existing refresh button).
I set up several templates in the Advanced Tag Editor to customize which sets of tags appear for the various Media Subtypes I use. If I change this field to a different value, the tag editor doesn't refresh which template it uses until I either close the editor window or deselect the file and re-select it. Closing the tag editor and re-opening it is a chore, but it's the only way to do it if you have multiple files selected, otherwise you'd need to re-select the entire group again, which can be an even bigger chore.
So it'd be awesome if you could just click the existing refresh button (or F5) and have the tag editor also refresh and choose the appropriate template.
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Great additional enhancement ideas from Markf and Doof.
It had not occurred to me that the std tag window would be the version that is "never seen", but there you go. I guess now MC does all new installs with the Advanced Tag Window active by default? I just assumed it was still the Std version. I do love love love the Advanced version, but... there are occasions when seeing every tag listed in alphabetical order is useful (to distinguish what the only difference might be between otherwise duplicate files for example).
Well hopefully Matt will take these suggestions up. The new menu items I suggested just seem like no-brainers to me. The current menu is not really a menu at all with only a single line item.
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If you're changing things in this area please also consider:
1) Stop that irritating flashing when the tag window is first opened. I'm always in a hurry and it drives me crazy wasting a second for it to settle down so I can use it.
2) Make the tag window artwork image scale larger as I widen the window so I can more easily assess the quality of artwork.
3) When both the tag window and tree are visible, make it possible to change the size of the split. I always need more space for the tag window and will happily shrink the tree to make room. I can't close the tree because I still need access to it.
4) Make it easier to grab the scroll bar in the tag window. I almost always miss it on my first attempt with the mouse.
Thanks.
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I agree with HPBME the Tag Windows do need some, probably a lot, of work carried out.
But that work does not stop with HPBME's Suggestions.
There are inconsistencies of presentation of Tag Content between the 2 windows. For Example in the Std Tag Window ; delimited tags are presented as a list, in the Advanced Window only the 1st entry is displayed.
In the Std. tag window there is a Mysterious, and Editable, Tag labelled "Format" and if you do as the the Tooltip Suggest and Click to Edit you end up in a New Window that is doing a very good impression of the Advanced Tag Window's Tag Dump Section; where you discover that "Format" is not a single tag and none of it's Component Parts are Editable.
But the thing that I noticed when compiling my Track-Info Plugins was how badly organised the unmodified Advanced Tag Window is.
For example the ATW has a section labelled "Classical" but the 4/5 Tags that are unique to Classical Music are in the Advanced Section, The 3 Movement tags, the "Work" tag and the undocumented "Show Work Movement" tag.
OH and there is something I am getting fed up of reporting - Somebody at MC decided to give us the ability to store the "Amazon System Information Number" in a Tag/Filed, but totally forgot that Amazon prevented 3rd party metadata scrapers accessing their web-sites years ago because they set it as "Can Not Be Edited". MC is capable of doing lots of things but using ESP to populate the Amazon ASIN Tag metadata is not one of them.
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1) Stop that irritating flashing when the tag window is first opened. I'm always in a hurry and it drives me crazy wasting a second for it to settle down so I can use it.
100% agree with this. It is pretty obvious when you open the tag window, since, well... it opens! I have no idea what purpose or value the "flashing" brings. That said, I have found that if you click somewhere, anywhere, within the tag window immediately after opening it, it prevents the flashing. But why have it flash at all? I cannot think of a single benefit, unless one enjoys being annoyed.
2) Make the tag window artwork image scale larger as I widen the window so I can more easily assess the quality of artwork.
If you make the tree/tag window as narrow as possible, and then start to widen it, you will see the artwork does get larger, but stops increasing in size fairly quickly. I presume you want it to keep getting bigger? You could try what I do to evaluate artwork - I use split view with the cover art maximized on 1 side. I find it helpful to turn on the display an alphabet option so I can quickly access a specific artist/album - with the art being that big, scrolling a large library can be laborious.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y4qGGJSb/MC1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Y4qGGJSb)
3) When both the tag window and tree are visible, make it possible to change the size of the split. I always need more space for the tag window and will happily shrink the tree to make room. I can't close the tree because I still need access to it.
That is a great idea... Yes please!
4) Make it easier to grab the scroll bar in the tag window. I almost always miss it on my first attempt with the mouse.
This one is driven by the skin design itself. If you are willing to go into the main.XML file of the skin you are using and do a simple edit, you can make the scrollbar wider. Here is a screenshot of the relevant main.XML section for the Noire skin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QbH42j5/image.png) (https://postimages.org/)
To make the scrollbar wider, decrease the Scale value shown at the end of the highlighted line (for the Scrollbar's "Vertical Background"). Conversely, to make the scrollbar thinner, increase the scale value. And yes, that is the opposite of what one would intuitively assume (for me it was anyway).
Note that scale values do not have to be integers... you can change them by incremental amounts. In fact, you may want to... changing Scale from 2 to 1 doubles the width, which is a pretty drastic change. I would suggest changing 2 to 1.5, or maybe 1.8 and see how that looks. Keep decreasing the value until it is at a width you like and can easily "grab".
Also note that these values are relative not absolute. This mean that if the XML original Scale = 4 (like the sample script above), then changing that to 2 doubles the width, and changing to 3 increases the width by 50%. Just wanted to point that out, as I don't know what skin you are using and not every skin uses the same scrollbar vertical background scale (which typically has to do with how detailed the scrollbar background image is, and how finely the author is trying to display that image). Also, the horizontal background scale is set independently of the vertical background, so you will need to adjust it's scale as well if you want their widths to match.
And finally, the script above will not be identical for all skins: the sequential order of the lines, the order of variables within a given line, and the image name for the Bitmap variable all may differ. The thing that will be common for ALL skin XML's however, is the relevant script will be in the <SCROLLBAR> section, and the critical line will begin with <Entry Name="VerticalBackground"...
Way more info than you asked for, but hopefully you will try the edits and it gets you what you want.
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There are inconsistencies of presentation of Tag Content between the 2 windows. For Example in the Std Tag Window ; delimited tags are presented as a list, in the Advanced Window only the 1st entry is displayed.
YES! I so wish the Advanced Tag Window displayed it as a list. Showing just the first item with an "..." ellipsis after it is very frustrating.
In the Std. tag window there is a Mysterious, and Editable, Tag labelled "Format" and if you do as the the Tooltip Suggest and Click to Edit you end up in a New Window that is doing a very good impression of the Advanced Tag Window's Tag Dump Section; where you discover that "Format" is not a single tag and none of it's Component Parts are Editable.
I had never noticed that tag before... interesting. After reading this, I played around a bit and found you can also generate that same "format tag" by clicking the text at the very top of the Std Tag Window (next to the tiny cover art image). If you hover on it for a second, the tool tip says "Click for detailed format information"... whaddya know. So there are 2 ways in the Std tag window to generate a detailed list of the file info, as well as the "Tag Dump" option in the advanced window. I consider all these to just be different ways to show the same info though, and is not really a "problem". Redundant perhaps, but no biggie.
All my blathering in these last couple posts notwithstanding, I really hope my original post does not get lost in the shuffle... that is...
Add the 4 items to the Tag Window Header Bar's Menu list that I detailed in my initial post. I really believe these would be very nice enhancements to MC's usability, and hope more people will post their support of this idea to encourage JRiver to incorporate them.
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YES! I so wish the Advanced Tag Window displayed it as a list. Showing just the first item with an "..." ellipsis after it is very frustrating
I find that if nothing is selected in the Adv. Tag Window (may need to hit <ESC> to make that happen), then hover my mouse over the first item shown in a ";" delimited list which appears with an "..." ellipsis, then I get a very clear, easy-to-read drop down of all items in the list! Great feature. If I click directly on the item, then I get a full-fledged selection drop down, showing my current list at the top above a separation line, also a great feature. Just take the ellipsis as a signal that there is more to see... I vote NO CHANGES to the way Data Type: List (semicolon delimited) works. :)
Re "Tag Dump" - that is another really great feature of the Adv. Tag Window, particularly the Vorbis Comment Block that shows up for my flac files. I believe the block contains only tags that are actually written into the music file itself. I generally get 1-1 agreement between tags displayed in the Comment Block, and those displayed by app Mp3tag > View > Extended Tags, apart from occasional small differences in labeling. This cross check gives me high confidence about what is truly preserved in the file.
Only two wishes here: (1) Unfortunately the Tag Dump does not expand to occupy all available space - instead it has a vertical scroll bar. I have submitted this twice as an enchantment request, but so far no bananas. (2) An option to list the Vorbis Comment Block in alphabetical order for easy comparison. I'm not sure what drives the current order - maybe it reflects ordering in the file itself (?).
As implied by other comments in this thread (which I am thankful for), most views of the Std. Tag Window have optional near equivalents in the Adv. Tag Window, as illustrated in my attached images. I find the Adv. view and Std. view either agree identically, or the Adv. View actually shows a few more fields (exception: behavior of lyrics editing window). The Adv. View has so much versatile customization to love. Granted, Std. View may be valuable for those users who just want something that is relatively simple and works out of the box without mucking around. (my 2 cents).
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I find that if nothing is selected in the Adv. Tag Window (may need to hit <ESC> to make that happen), then hover my mouse over the first item shown in a ";" delimited list which appears with an "..." ellipsis, then I get a very clear, easy-to-read drop down of all items in the list! Great feature. If I click directly on the item, then I get a full-fledged selection drop down, showing my current list at the top above a separation line, also a great feature. Just take the ellipsis as a signal that there is more to see...
Yeah... I was aware it shows the full list in a tooltip if you hover over it (but not if you have tooltips turned off obviously), and that it shows a split list if you click on the combobox. But I, and would bet English Tiger too, would definitely prefer it shows the full list directly by default, as it does in the Standard Tag Window. We will likely have to agree to disagree as to which is better. That said, your preference is the current default.
Re "Tag Dump" - that is another really great feature of the Adv. Tag Window, particularly the Vorbis Comment Block. I believe it shows only tags that are actually written into the music file itself. I generally get 1-1 agreement between the items it shows, and those displayed by app Mp3tag > View > Extended Tags, apart from occasional small differences in labeling. This cross check gives me high confidence about what is truly preserved in the file.
Only two wishes here: (1) Tag Dump does not expand to occupy all available space - instead it has a vertical scroll bar. I have submitted this twice as an enchantment request, but so far no bananas. (2) An option to list the Vorbis Comment Block in alphabetical order for easy comparison. I'm not sure what drives the current order - maybe it reflects ordering in the file itself (?).
Great additional info/observations regarding the Tag Dump. And having the Tag Dump automatically expand to fill the full height of the Tag Window would be a definite plus.
As implied by other comments in this thread (which I am tthankful for), most views of the Std. Tag Window can optionally be brought lock-stock-and-barrel directly into the Adv. Tag Window, as illustrated in my attached images. I find the Adv. view and Std. view either agree identically, or the Adv. View actually shows a few more fields. The Adv. View has so much versatile customization to love. Granted, Std. View may be valuable for those users who just want something that is relatively simple and works out of the box without mucking around. (my 2 cents).
Nice info/pic for those unfamiliar with how to customize the Adv Tag Window.
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I am a big fan of the new tag window... however, even after all this time, I still miss these windows for "large edit" fields...
Here's exactly what I'm talking about regarding large edits...
Today, I was performing some work on the lyrics field of some tracks. Compare the two tagging paths....
The Current Standard
Here, I can open the lyrics field for editing, and see the whole thing, right there, and make edits. I don't need to close the field, selecting the next track saves those edits and presents the lyrics field of the currently selected track, ready for editing...
(http://www.mpw.scot/pics/ia/21/snap-012.jpg)
The Exprerimental
This is where it gets cumbersome...
Initially opening the field for editing is really not fit for purpose, so you need to pop it out, which prevents the next track from being selected until the pop out editor has been closed...
(http://www.mpw.scot/pics/ia/21/snap-013.jpg)
Also, when not 'popped out', putting the mouse inside the small edit field and trying to scroll up and down is horrible as MC can't decide whether to scroll the field being edited, the tag window as whole, or both, which is a source of frustration...
Re. Slowdown
I haven't tested enough to say conclusively yet, but initial testing regarding the slowdown I have been experiencing appears to point at the "All Fields" group as the offending item. Removing that has definitely felt like an improvement.
-marko
also, I still get bugged, almost daily, that the "Playlists" entry, and "tag dump" entry, which both have their own scroll bars, behave weirdly if the tag window itself also has a scroll bar. When you have the mouse inside the internal window, and scroll the mouse wheel, everything moves. It's just horrible.
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I removed a post that was badly formatted.
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Hey Marko, I agree 100% with your observations. But the Adv Tag Window is sooooo much better in every other way, I have learned to live with, and frankly gotten used to, simply using the pop-out window to do the large field edits. I assume the large edit fields in the Adv Tag Window are the way they are because they have to for that layout to work properly.
Same goes for the for the wonky dual scrollbar behavior you mentioned - it is not ideal to be sure, but I have learned to live with it.
That said, this is where adding the new option for a Toggle Tag Window Style in the Tag Window Menu (that I requested in the OP) would come in very handy. Instead of closing the tag window, and then relaunching it via shift-clicking in the Action Window Menu to access std tagging, you select the Toggle option from the adv tag window menu you already have open to swap to the Std Tag Window, where doing the large field edits is much more amenable.
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...swap to the Std Tag Window, where doing the large field edits is much more amenable.
In what way is the Std Tag Window more suitable than just editing directly in the Adv. Tag Window Lyrics section, especially if it is dragged a little wider? Am I missing something here?
Biggest gripe about editing the Lyrics Tag: When you first choose to do so all the existing lyrics text is automatically highlighted and the window auto-scrolls to the last lines of text, usually hiding most of the preceding text. If you hit any key before deselecting with the mouse - kzammm - your lyrics text is gone and even <CTRL + z> won't bring it back. You better have a backup file to restore from.
Biggest gripe about editing in the Lyrics Popup Window: While listening to the track you lose all control of the playback. So you cannot pause the music, correct lyric, start play again, restart, jump position etc. without first closing the popup window. So I am pretty much forced to do all corrective editing in the Lyrics Tag directly.
I submitted enhancement requests for these in the past, but so far no bananas.
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In what way is the Std Tag Window more suitable than just editing directly in the Adv. Tag Window Lyrics section, especially if it is dragged a little wider? Am I missing something here?
Look at Marko's screenshots comparing the difference. In the std window, when you edit a "large field" (lyrics, bio, etc), it expands to the full height of the tag window. Is this not what you wanted for the tag dump? and the ability to drag the tag window taller than the preset height when both the tree and tag window are shown? This is basically the same thing. Instead of being confined to pre-set smallish block to edit within, you would have the full panel height. THAT is what Marko and myself would like to see in the Adv Tag Window (if it is possible).
As for your other "gripes" (your word):
1) I personally like that it auto-selects everything, but I also hate that it always scrolls to the last line. Not sure why undo (control+z) does not work for you... works fine and every time for me.
2) this is the same thing Marko said in his post.
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Look at Marko's screenshots comparing the difference. In the std window, when you edit a "large field" (lyrics, bio, etc), it expands to the full height of the tag window.
@marko and HPBEME:
Thanks for the clarification - got it. (1) The full height real estate available in Std. Tag Window helps for large text edits. (2) I find the large window also stays open reliably when accessing MC player controls. The Adv. T.W. Lyrics panel window closes unpredictably when accessing player controls, a show-stopper source of frustration for an editor. (3) The Adv. T.W. pop-up window is modal (blocks player controls), another show stopper. It needs to be always-on-top non-modal.
Summary: I like the Adv. Tag Window's creative attempt at a fairly large but limited scrollable lyrics window supplemented with an adjustable-size, always-on-top, popup option. However the present implementation is intolerable for serious "live" interactive editing.
Scroll Bars: I find that dragging the Adv. T.W. lyrics window "internal" scroll bar does scroll independently of the outer pane scroll bar, therefore working as expected. Scroll wheel in the text area scrolls lyric text as expected (MC 28.0.84). Scroll wheel directly on the inner scrollbar surprisingly closes the Lyrics Window and scrolls the main tag window instead! I consider that a cool gem of a shortcut feature. Skin: unmodified ThunderStorm. Summary: no issues. ;)
Lyrics tracking: Consider making "lyrics jump to the now-playing song" optional in the lyrics editing windows ("auto-track the player" checkbox on window?). If I am just listening and watching the lyrics go by, yes by all means jump to the next song's lyrics as the music advances (current behavior). But when I am actively listening and editing text, I prefer that lyrics do not suddenly disappear and switch on me to a new song, even if the music does so. Re-sync any time by clicking on the track, as now.
Look at Marko's screenshots comparing the difference. In the std window, when you edit a "large field" (lyrics, bio, etc), it expands to the full height of the tag window. Is this not what you wanted for the tag dump?
Tag Dump Display: A large field editing window is not what I meant for Tag Dump. I want Tag Dump to fully expand into the height it needs just like the other tag sections with the total panel display controlled by the single panel scrollbar, rather than the current small restricted view with its own scrollbar inside the panel scrollbar. BTW I'm perfectly OK with not being able to edit those strings from this display - I just want to see the report.
1) I personally like that it auto-selects everything, but I also hate that it always scrolls to the last line. Not sure why undo (control+z) does not work for you... works fine and every time for me.
The vast majority of my edits are small corrections or cut/paste, so it's just an extra step to deselect before starting. I don't need to see everything highlighted - personal preference I guess.
OK, sometimes I have to hit <CTRL + z> twice (or more) in the usual way to complete the undo, depending on how things were deleted/replaced. Don't know why that didn't seem to work for me before, but it's good now. Thanks.
(apologies for updating many times on 11/20/2021)
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Biggest gripe about editing the Lyrics Tag: When you first choose to do so all the existing lyrics text is automatically highlighted and the window auto-scrolls to the last lines of text, usually hiding most of the preceding text. If you hit any key before deselecting with the mouse - kzammm - your lyrics text is gone and even <CTRL + z> won't bring it back. You better have a backup file to restore from.
If and when any accidental removal of the lyrics, or any part of the lyrics or any other field/tag, there is a very simple way of preventing the tag being updated - It's called hitting the Escape Key which stops MC from saving what is shown on the screen to either the Library Fields or the Files Tags.
MC is not the only bit of Software, when in edit mode, that will select all of the text and place the cursor at the very end of that text - it does it for every field/tag.
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I just found another instance of the Tag Window not doing what you would expect it to do.
If you go to Tools >> Options >> Tree & View and switch on "Enlarge scrollbars on mouse over" it doesn't work in Either Tag Window Scrollbar, but if you Navigate to the "Tag Dump Section" in the Advanced Tag Window or it's equivalent in the Standard Tag Window it does work.
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Before this topic gets bumped from the 1st page, I figured I would make one last push to get JRiver/Matt to take notice.
My request was for a Tag Window enhancement, but it sort of turned into a grievance thread on general tag window behavior (much of which I agreed with). I get it, its a forum... I too have been guilty of hi-jacking a thread to promote my own wish list. But my post was not trying to address existing behavior - it was about adding something new to enhance the Tag Window. Perhaps some of the other concerns raised in this thread could be addressed in a standalone thread? Just a thought.
Since I really believe this enhancement would be a very beneficial to MC and its users, I wanted to re-focus the thread on that original request. To that end, I am repeating my 1st post below. It would be fantastic if someone from JRiver would indicate that: 1) Great idea and it will be incorporated 2) We are considering implementing it 3) Nope, never gonna happen
I prefer not to expend effort on a lost cause.
ORIGINAL POST
The Advanced Tag Window currently has only 1 menu item: Customize (which opens a window where you can customize your tag groups). I request the following be added to the menu to enhance usability:
Collapse All Tag Groups
Expand All Tag Groups
Toggle Auto-Expand/Collapse
-Currently when you expand a tag group, it stays open/closed until you close/open it (thus the first 2 items in the list).
-This option automatically collapses the current open tab group when you click on a different tag group header to expand it
-This option toggles between the current “stay open” behavior, and using an auto-expand/collapse workflow
-This behavior is already standard for the Panes View, so I presume it can be incorporated in the Tag Window too
-e.g., you’ve defined multiple Genre’s with sub-styles, and when you click on a different Genre, the open one collapses, and the newly selected Genre expands to show all its sub-styles
Toggle Tag Window Style
-This would toggle between the Standard Tag Window (where all tags are un-grouped and sorted alphabetically) and the Advanced Tag Window (where you can customize tags groups and order tags as desired)
-This 1 menu item would be added to both the Standard and Advanced Tag Window menu list to quickly switch between the two tag window formats
-Having this in the menu would also expose the Advanced Tag Window functionality that many users may never become aware of otherwise
-I only discovered the Advanced Tag Window when I stumbled across it looking for something completely unrelated, and a post mentioned using “shift-click” to activate the "other" Tag Window.
-I remember thinking… Wait... What? What other Tag Window? At the time, I had been using MC for over a decade and was completely unaware of its existence.
-For users who never come to the forum (which I imagine is the vast majority of MC users), they may never discover this awesome tagging interface… and even then, I only found it in a forum post by dumb luck.
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How about adding a "Show Tags With Values" Option to the Advanced Tag Window Menu that, just like the same option in the Standard Tag Window, would only show those tags that had values?
And maybe even giving the Advanced Tag Window's "Advanced" section a more meaningful/appropriate Name/Title; i.e All Other Tags Listed Alphabetically.
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To the developers: I would really appreciate having a detachable and resizable tag window, if possible. The last windows size should be remembered.
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How about adding a "Show Tags With Values" Option to the Advanced Tag Window Menu that, just like the same option in the Standard Tag Window, would only show those tags that had values?
You can "Add Fields With Values" today in the customize dialog.
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You can "Add Fields With Values" today in the customize dialog.
That simply adds an extra section to the tag window unlike the The Standard Tag Window where if you select the "Show all Fields With Values" from the Menu what is displayed in the Tag Window are only those Fields with Values
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Collapse All Tag Groups
Expand All Tag Groups
Both coming to the next build. Thanks for the suggestion.
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That is fantastic news… Thank you so much Matt! I cannot wait to test it out. Just curious though - Are the other two options I suggested (toggle auto expand/collapse, and toggle to switch to the other tag window style) to difficult to implement?
Since shift click on "tag" in the action window to switch between the two tag window styles is not documented anywhere (that I can find), having that as a menu option is vital IMO. I personally have helped three or four people in this forum who found themselves in one tag window when they wanted the other, had no idea how they got there, and no idea how to return to the style they preferred. And if a handful of people have asked about this on the forum, you know it is just the tip of the iceberg of people who have found themselves in that situation.
Like most people, I definitely prefer the tag group window, but if I'm doing a bunch of album review or artist bio updates, the original tag window is so much better for that type of editing. And doing a simple switch to show every single tag in alphabetical order is sometimes beneficial too.
In any event, thank you again for implementing the expand/collapse all.
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We made the next build present the tag window style in the menu. The shift shortcut has been retired.
I wondered if we could just remove the legacy tag window, but others on the team liked it.
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Fantastic Matt - and thank you again for implementing these features.
I was wondering if you had planned on ever deprecating the older tag window. I think it is the right decision to keep it - as someone noted earlier in this thread, for new users, or those who do not wish to spend time customizing anything, the legacy tag window makes things very simple. I personally like how "large" edit fields expand the full height of the tag window for the legacy style - maybe someday you will incorporate that into the current tag window (rhetorical)?
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... I personally like how "large" edit fields expand the full height of the tag window for the legacy style
Yes. Me Too.
Please incorporate that into the current tag window.
thanks,
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We'll try to use more height next build. Thanks for the suggestion.
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I downloaded the latest MC and have been using the new expand/collapse menu options all weekend. I love it. Hopefully others find these new features as useful as I do. I am also thrilled that you added the menu option to toggle between the two tag window styles.
It makes complete sense to have expand/collapse as context menu items when right-clicking on a group header, but... I would like to also access those options from the tag window header bar menu. It's a matter of what my mouse is closest to at any given moment, and many times that is the tag header menu icon. In addition, the header icon is big and easy to click, whereas the group headers are very narrow, and it is somewhat easy to right-click in the wrong spot.
And finally, instead of calling the two different tag Windows "Legacy" and "Modern", would you consider: "Show Basic Tag Window" and "Show Advanced Tag Window" to more accurately reflect each windows capability? Your nomenclature is fine, but thinking of new users, my suggestion immediately conveys a general idea of what makes them different.
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I personally like how "large" edit fields expand the full height of the tag window for the legacy style - maybe someday you will incorporate that into the current tag window (rhetorical)?
+1
Legacy Tag window works great for the Lyrics field edit box, providing a full-height scrollable text field.
The Tag Dump appears to be just another large scrollable text field (though appropriately it is not editable). However in the Modern Tag window it is much more restricted in height compared to the Lyrics field edit box. And unfortunately there is no Tag Dump in the Legacy Tag window.
Requests:
(1) In Modern Tag window, improve Tag Dump by having it expand into available space, just like the Lyrics field edit box.
(2) In Legacy Tag window, add Tag Dump for a full height scrollable display just like the Lyrics field edit box (though it should remain non-editable).
(3) In Modern Tag window, a full height scrollable display, as requested above by @HPBEME and @MusicBringer, would be a good local fix for both Lyrics field edit box and Tag Dump display. Maybe double-clicking the label of a Modern large text edit field (or add RMB "edit window" option) could "simply" overlay a full-height box, i.e. hide the Modern Tag window until edit text box is dismissed (thereby avoiding a separate trip to the Legacy Tag window).
(4) For additional cleanup, please consider: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132304.msg922604.html#msg922604 (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132304.msg922604.html#msg922604) .
Thanks.
MC 29.0.54 Win 10/11 (64-bit)
200th post - who would'a guessed back then....
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And unfortunately there is no Tag Dump in the Legacy Tag window.
There actually is a tag dump window in the Basic (a.k.a. legacy) window. At the top there is a small thumbnail, and to the right of that is text. The top text line is a hyperlink, which opens a scrollable tag dump window at the bottom… which BTW, is larger/taller than the Advanced (a.k.a. modern) version of the tag dump.
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Thinking about it some more, I remembered that earlier in this thread EnglishTiger found another non-obvious way to open the tag dump in the Basic tag window. If you set the tag window to Show All Fields, look for one named Format. Click on the text to the right of the label, and that will also open the tag dump window.
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More height here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133184.0.html
I really like the change.
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Will look at you go... working on a holiday and everything - thank you Matt! This is going to make a ton of people very happy.
I just downloaded it and there is a little bug though… no issues for lyrics and artist bio, but when I click on field for album review or notes, as soon as I scroll via my mouse wheel or click on the scrollbar, it instantly closes the edit window.
Hopefully fixing that for those two fields, and any other large edit field, will be straightforward.
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More height here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133184.0.html
I really like the change.
So do I! Beautiful.
Now just get rid of that funky auto-highlighting and don't auto-scroll to the bottom, please. I realize that may be difficult though. :)
For the Tag Dump, I still prefer current scrolling behavior in many situations, especially if fixed to fill available space. For example, when comparing a tag value to the analogous field value (something I do quite often), it is really nice to have them both visible at the same time, as the current Modern Tag window allows. So I would like to see double-click or RMB menu as an option for full-height Tag Dump overlay, but full-height should not be the default one-click response.
Thanks!
MC 29.0.55 Windows 10/11 (64-bit)
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I just downloaded it and there is a little bug though… no issues for lyrics and artist bio, but when I click on field for album review or notes, as soon as I scroll via my mouse wheel or click on the scrollbar, it instantly closes the edit window.
I can't reproduce that. I set some "Notes" fields. Click on it, scroll with the wheel or clicking the bar and it works.
Mouse wheel _outside_ the edit stops the edit, but that's to be expected.
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It is 100% repeatable on my end with those two fields… And with several different skins.
I will reboot just to check for that as a potential solution, but that seems unlikely since it works perfectly with the artist bio and lyrics field, but not the album review & notes field.
I will report back in a few minutes.
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I was using "Notes" which is a stock field. I don't think album review notes is stock. Can you find the behavior on any stock field? Or can you share the field properties so I can mimic? Thanks.
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Reboot did not resolve the issue. I am on 64bit Win10, 21H2, OS Build 19044.1706. I do use the 32bit version of MC for compatibility with Milkdrop visualizations though... maybe that is it? I think I remember you saying you don't typically validate changes on the 32bit MC version.
I have been using the album review field for so long I forgot that I had created that one. Regardless, the stock notes field does not work either as I indicated above... Behavior I described is 100% repeatable for that field as well.
Perhaps you can check other stock "large edit" fields for both the 64 and 32-bit versions and see if it reveals itself on your end?
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Here are my album review field settings
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Just tested the 32-bit version. Notes edits just fine.
The mouse wheel runs the edit control and the scrollbar works.
Not sure what might be different?
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I tried a couple of things where my results might be clues as to what the issue is.
When I paste a long artist bio into the album review field or the stock notes field, they scroll and behave just fine. I have a feeling it has to do with whether there is carriage return/line feed present at the end of the paragraph. I remember a theater view thread about a similar issue regarding how those fields behaved there. Is that ringing a bell?
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Here's the really weird part though…
when I copy and paste a multi-paragraph artist bio in-full into those other two fields, they work fine. But when I edit the album review or notes field so it is only two paragraphs, it goes back to the behavior I described before, that is, as soon as I scroll my wheel or click on the scrollbar the edit window instantly closes.
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If the edit doesn't need the mouse wheel, the wheel will stop editing.
So maybe you're just encountering fields that don't need a wheel?
Scrolling the outside scrollbar (not the edit) also stops editing.
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But I have plenty of artist bio and lyric fields that do not require scrolling, and they don't instantly close the edit window as soon as I scroll my wheel or touch the scrollbar.
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My fields close when I scroll if they don't need the mouse wheel. We added the ability of the edit to say it wants the mousewheel recently. If it says it doesn't, it will stop the editing and scroll the container.
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I stand corrected. I went to an artist that has a short bio (i.e., the bio text did not fill the expanded text window), and as soon as I scrolled or touched the scrollbar it closed.
So the behavior is consistent, however this instant closing by even the most minor scroll wheel movement (I use a hyper scroll wheel that is very sensitive) is non-intuitive, unexpected, and aggravating behavior. To be clear, when you are editing these same fields in basic tag window, it does not behave like this, regardless of how much (or how little) text is in the window.
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We added the ability of the edit to say it wants the mousewheel recently. If it says it doesn't, it will stop the editing and scroll the container.
Great… I think? I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying above. I presume this means in the next version, when text does not fill the large edit window, it will no longer automatically collapse when you mouse scroll or click on the scrollbar? Is that right?
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Everything I'm talking about is already released. If the edit doesn't need a scrollbar, the scroll will go to the outer container. Scrolling that stops the edit. As you noted, it is consistent.
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(deleted by markf2748)
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but maybe it provides a hint about the current issue of the large edit window closing.
I think what Matt described in his last post indicates that this is the intended behavior. I erroneously interpreted the behavior as inconsistent because the particular artists I had chosen to do my initial testing on had biographies that filled the edit window.
That said, it is not consistent with how those same fields work in the basic tag window - the amount of text shown does not change how scrolling interacts with the large text edit window. So in that sense, it is not consistent, and for me personally, I don't like it because I now find myself accidentally closing the edit window frequently.
I imagine I will eventually get used to making sure I don't scroll when I'm in a large edit field, but then again, I'm not sure. The "freewheeling" hyperscroll wheel on my mouse makes it very easy to accidentally scroll, which will then accidentally close that window. I will be curious if others also find the auto-closing aspect irritating, or if I will be the only one who cares.
So there you go Matt… All this proves once again that no good deed goes unpunished! In any event, I truly do appreciate your spending the holiday looking at this, making changes, and conversing on this thread.
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I don't feel that strongly on this. I'm just saying it is working as intended. Another approach would be for big edits to always eat the wheel even if there's nothing to scroll.
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I would welcome a tweak that has no scrollbar as long as text under-fills the window height.
As soon as you hit a carriage return that overfills the height, scroll bar appears. I think that is quite common, even expected, in text editing windows.
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The scrollbar only appears when necessary. But that's the problem.
It doesn't appear for some fields so scrolling goes to the outer container.
We could make mouse wheel always eaten by the window even if it doesn't have a scrollbar. Like I said, I don't feel strongly.
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I don't feel that strongly on this. I'm just saying it is working as intended. Another approach would be for big edits to always eat the wheel even if there's nothing to scroll.
Well by all means then... let's have big edits "eat the wheel" ;D
I am not clear what the advantage is as currently configured… You can already easily close the large edit window by simply clicking on the label again (which is how I've always done it). What makes it bizarre is that in no other software I have used, does scrolling the wheel or clicking on the scroll bar result in something getting closed.
Given its unexpected nature and ease with which you can accidentally invoke it, to me it's a no-brainer… "eat the wheel" ;D
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The scrollbar only appears when necessary. But that's the problem.
It doesn't appear for some fields so scrolling goes to the outer container.
I see, thanks for the clarification.
We could make mouse wheel always eaten by the window even if it doesn't have a scrollbar. Like I said, I don't feel strongly.
That's ok with me, as long as the inner scrollbar follows the common convention (as it does now): only appear when there is something to be scrolled.
On the other hand, re current behavior with an under-filled full-height text box (no inner scrollbar), I am willing to be careful about not scrolling until closing the overlaid text box. In this approach, I view the closing by scrolling as a clever, extremely fast shortcut that will be used a lot. Once understood, people may quickly adapt. Time will tell, but I might prefer it.
MC 29.0.55 Win 10/11 (64-bit)
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I am willing to be careful about not scrolling until closing the overlaid text box. In this approach, I view the closing by scrolling as a clever, extremely fast shortcut that will be used a lot. Once understood, I predict people will quickly adapt.
Well I'm glad you're willing, but that misses (part of) the point I was making. Using a hyper scroll wheel mouse is supremely beneficial in a media program where your regularly scrolling very long lists. But now, even the tiniest bump of the scroll wheel will close the edit window as it is now configured.
So it is not simply a matter of "adapting" - the sensitivity of the hardware is also a factor, and in my testing it is extremely annoying.
It is hardly a burden to simply click on label to close the tag edit window like we've always done prior to this change. But having the window close unexpectedly is a huge deal, and your assumption that people will quickly adapt to this behavior, one that does not exist in any other software mind you, I think is simply wrong.
So I guess I vigorously disagree with you on this point, and I implore Matt to "Eat the wheel… Eat it!"
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I'm going to try making inner controls that don't need the mouse wheel eat the wheel anyway. That way scrolling will not switch fields.
Thanks for all the help.