INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 29 for Windows => Topic started by: TheShoe on March 21, 2022, 05:15:49 pm
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Question re: DV support -
Is the target goal to be able to fully support DV in JRVR and effectively streamed to the TV as HDR10? e.g. all the benefits of DV will be possible?
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Excuse my ignorance, but I am still unsure about your MC 29 Dolby Vision support.
1. If i keep all of my movies in .iso containers, can MC still use Dolby Vision?
2. How will I know if it is using the Dolby Vision metadata or not if it doesn't bitstream the Dolby Vision to the Pre/Pro?
3. Can it still bitstream the Atmos audio if it isn't bitstreaming the Dolby Vision video, but just rendering it to HDR10 with the metadata?
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These questions about DV keep being asked. :)
Dolby Vision playback is only supported on media files originating from streaming services. It is not supported for DV BluRay discs, and there are no plans to.
The display is not switched to DV mode for files for which there is support, either. What happens is that DV metadata is used to perform any "grading" of the video content, and the resulting HDR10 video content is sent to the display in HDR10 mode. What you will see is the same you would have seen on the display in DV mode.
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I suppose that i don't quite understand the point of the Dolby Vision support then.
1. Most modern devices have support of Dolby Vision from STREAMING digital sources such as Netflix and Amazon Prime, built in. Therefore no need for JRiver MEDIA Center to do anything with it.
2. Nobody else supports DV from MEDIA on pc, so there IS a reason for JRiver MEDIA Center to support it. Competitive advantage
3. Most modern display devices support DV natively
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1. Most modern devices have support of Dolby Vision from STREAMING digital sources such as Netflix and Amazon Prime, built in. Therefore no need for JRiver MEDIA Center to do anything with it.
2. Nobody else supports DV from MEDIA on pc, so there IS a reason for JRiver MEDIA Center to support it. Competitive advantage
Agree that most TV support DV (notable exception is Samsung) ... not aware of any projector that support DV
Agree ... that for streaming content ... no need for JRiver to do anything
Its a different story for UHD discs ... as i prefer running them off HDD ... plus iPhone ability to capture videos in DV might trigger my interest further (though atm i think its more of a gimmick)
Point 2 is unlikely ... as that requires a license from Dolby ... which (even if JRiver was interested in getting ... and they are not interested) Dolby will unlikely to provide as PC platform tends to be easier platform for reverse engineering ... not even streaming apps on PC have DV
And what ppl mean by DV support? ... pass DV metadata to display so display goes into DV mode ... or use DV metadata to do tonemapping?
For last one ... not aware of anybody able to do it ... as Dolby don't publish their DV spec publicly ... and reverse engineer of DV in US is likely not so legal
For first one ... its possible if you do app for Nvidia Shield ... Plex is able to do it ... also Plex running on my new Sony XR65X90J also able to trigger DV (EDIT: DV in mkv format generated by MakeMKV from UHD disc)
Be aware that currently Plex has major issue on their AndroidTV apps (Shield and my sony TV included) with Dolby TrueHD (including Atmos) for quite some time now ... and solution is nowhere in sight (they have tons of apps on different platforms ... supporting all of them is likely nightmare)
PS. honestly ... when i switch between DV and HDR10 on my sony (and it takes some time to do it) ... i can see the difference, but not sure which one is better ... unless i run these side by side, which i cannot do as i have only one Sony (i can run Sony with LG OLED side by side ... but likely whatever difference i see will be due to panel differences) ... so for me ... honestly ... atm running DV through Plex is more of placebo effect
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These questions about DV keep being asked. :)
Dolby Vision playback is only supported on media files originating from streaming services. It is not supported for DV BluRay discs, and there are no plans to.
The display is not switched to DV mode for files for which there is support, either. What happens is that DV metadata is used to perform any "grading" of the video content, and the resulting HDR10 video content is sent to the display in HDR10 mode. What you will see is the same you would have seen on the display in DV mode.
Hmmm ... your post implies JRiver can tone map DV profile 5 (or convert it to HDR10) ... i was not aware of that ... better do some testing with MC29 lol
Also ... if what you saying is true ... result will be different from TV going to DV mode as DV use proprietry tone mapping curves ... whether DV will be better is a different subject
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Yes, DV Profile 5 is converted to HDR10, making use of DV metadata. How to do it was reversed engineered by the open source community. It's maybe not 100% what Dolby does though.
There is indeed a difference between what a display in DV mode can do, and the conversion in software to HDR10.
DV capable displays have colorimetry data measured for them stored in the display (but limited data, such as white point, primaries, and min and max luminosity I think), to be used by the DV chip to map colors to the actual gamut of the display. There are different ways to map from one color gamut to another, so we might indeed get a different conversion to the actual gamut of the display than the one done in software to the BT2020 gamut. And there is no additional tone-mapping near peak luminance done by the display like it happens when the display is in HDR10 mode.
A software conversion will map to the whole BT2020 gamut (or DCI-P3) which is then sent to the display that is in HDR10 mode. The color gamut mapping performed by the display in HDR10 mode is different than the one performed by DV, as it does not use actual colorimetry data of the display and perhaps not the same algorithm (maybe it's absolute colorimetric, maybe it's perceptual, maybe it's something else). Then there is the HDR10 tone-mapping near the peak luminance, which is performed on top of the tone-mapping already done by using the DV metadata. The display in DV mode doesn't apply this additional tone-mapping near peak luminance that a HDR10 display does.
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Yes, DV Profile 5 is converted to HDR10, making use of DV metadata. How to do it was reversed engineered by the open source community. It's maybe not 100% what Dolby does though.
There is indeed a difference between what a display in DV mode can do, and the conversion in software to HDR10.
DV capable displays have colorimetry data measured for them stored in the display (but limited data, such as white point, primaries, and min and max luminosity I think), to be used by the DV chip to map colors to the actual gamut of the display. There are different ways to map from one color gamut to another, so we might indeed get a different conversion to the actual gamut of the display than the one done in software to the BT2020 gamut. And there is no additional tone-mapping near peak luminance done by the display like it happens when the display is in HDR10 mode.
A software conversion will map to the whole BT2020 gamut (or DCI-P3) which is then sent to the display that is in HDR10 mode. The color gamut mapping performed by the display in HDR10 mode is different than the one performed by DV, as it does not use actual colorimetry data of the display and perhaps not the same algorithm (maybe it's absolute colorimetric, maybe it's perceptual, maybe it's something else). Then there is the HDR10 tone-mapping near the peak luminance, which is performed on top of the tone-mapping already done by using the DV metadata. The display in DV mode doesn't apply this additional tone-mapping near peak luminance that a HDR10 display does.
just tried it ... and indeed JRVR does play Profile 5 ... nice ... though of little use to me atm ... as I prefer to keep my UHD rips in MKV format and dont see benefit of converting Profile 7 to Profile 5
i guess then ... to play profile 7 ... we need to wait for community to do hard lifting ... recall it took quite a while to crack 3D playback
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I use a Shield Pro, with Netflix, Amazon, Plex and Emby apps. DolbyVision from streaming services work fine. Great in fact even with lossy audio. DolbyVision played on either Plex or Emby from a MKV or MP4 file play but at some point starts pausing, and once it starts, the file becomes unwatchable This is NOT the case when played with a Plex or Emby Smart App on my LG OLED. Nvidia has an open ticket from me, but I don't have much confidence they will provide a fix any time soon, as there is very little content available in DV for purchase. One notable exception is West Side Story from Itunes.
I've given up trying to get DV content from any source to play through my Yamaha AVR, even though they advertise DV support. The common blank screen is all I get.
My eyes tell me DV content looks the best, but it seems every manufacturer has had problems at some point. Some have solve the issues. Many still struggling. Certainly HRD10 is not too shabby. I'm losing patience with cable and HBO Max and their lack of support or content in 4K let alone HDR.
Larry
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Hendrik's summary on the main JRVR thread mentions " - Support for Dolby Vision Metadata in Profile 7 and 8 to enhance the HDR10 image for improved quality":
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132317.0.html
Does that mean that JRVR will also consume the dynamic metadata from Profile 7 as part of its Tonemapping? Tij's reply below suggests that only Profile 5 metadata is being used. And what about FEL improvements?
My scenario requires the video to be ultimately converted to SDR BT.2020 since I use a JVC RS500 projector with poor HDR native support. I wonder if the following assumption is correct:
Source: MKV with DV Profile 7
JRVR would : 1st, consume the DV dynamic metadata as part of its tone mapping to static HDR; 2nd, further convert it to SDR BT.2020 according to my max nits (100 nits).
The 2nd step is what I do with MadVR today (HDR to SDR BT 2020), but I'm curious on how the DV metadata can be used to further improve the final output.
Thanks!
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Answering my own question:
I verified that JRVR does indeed consume the DV dynamic metadata for both profile 5 and 7. I used the samples from this link on my test:
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/dune-pro-vision-4k-dolby-vision-fel-and-rpu-response-other-random-stuff.3188469/
The only scenario not supported yet is FEL (full enhancement layer). @Hendrik any plans to support FEL in the near future? While in theory FEL shouldn't really be that important, some titles are taking advantage of FEL to fix problems with the base layer - elevated black levels, chroma issues, etc. Examples are Total Recall, Annihilation, Invasion of Body Snatchers among others.
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JRVR uses the metadata from all supported DV profiles - however, it does not use all of the data. It uses DV data to produce a better HDR image, but does not use the DV tonemapping data to create a better SDR image (yet).
FEL support is complicated, and not likely be "near future".
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Thanks Hendrik! It's interesting that the DV metadata is not yet used when tone mapping to SDR - using the DV7 samples I posted above, I can still see that the DV metadata impacted the SDR output (in a good way)- and a completely different result when the same file is tone mapped by a solution that is not DV aware (such as MadVR).
That led me to assume that at least some of the DV metadata was carried over to the SDR tone mapping process as well.
Cheers
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Well, it uses one piece of data - the current dynamic indicated brightness, which helps the tonemapping. But not the more advanced data.
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Thinking of upgrading to MC29
I am not familiar with all the geek speak so please forgive my question.
Will MC29 play downloaded Dolby vision using bit streaming??