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More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 30 for Windows => Topic started by: Hendrik on August 24, 2022, 03:43:38 pm
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JRVR, or JRiver Video Renderer, was created in MC28 and further developed in MC29. It has matured into a proper high-quality video renderer which "just works".
In Media Center 30 there is still more already and more to come!
MC30 Improvements so far
- Built-in deinterlacing independent of the GPU driver (and on all platforms!)
- Performance Presets for an easier setup
- More flexibile scaling options
- Reliability/stability improvements
Planned
- (Maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs) (under investigation)
General Video improvements
- Video Analysis, similar to the well known Audio Analysis
- Cropping information for semi-automated blackbar cropping
- More metadata in the library (HDR info, and more)
- Tonemapping thumbnails for HDR videos
- HDR -> SDR tonemapping for video conversion and streaming
- (Maybe) HDR video streaming
These are the planned changes, and will be developed during the lifetime of Media Center 30. Not every enhancement named here will be available right away.
What happened in MC29?
You can check what we achieved in MC29 for JRVR here:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,132317.0.html
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Great List!
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- (Maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs)
General Video improvements
- Video Analysis, similar to the well known Audio Analysis
- Cropping information for semi-automated blackbar cropping
- More metadata in the library (HDR info, and more)
(1)Is the Dolby Vision Enhancement layer support for m2ts rips/remuxes from UHD discs or only MKV remuxes of UHD Bds ?
(2)For video Analysis, please ensure that the side-car files are not stored in the same library where the video files are stored(as was the unfortunate case in audio-analysis). They should be stored in a separate folder with links to the main library files.
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"Built-in deinterlacing independent of the GPU driver"
I read about deinterlacing. This is to get better perceived motion and reduce flicker. So this is going to done seperately away from the GPU and handled within JRiver? Did I understand this correctly? And I interpret this to be a better way of rendering video?
Looking forward to this greatly! Maybe my problems will be less troublesome. Also the presets is a welcomed feature :)
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(2)For video Analysis, please ensure that the side-car files are not stored in the same library where the video files are stored(as was the unfortunate case in audio-analysis). They should be stored in a separate folder with links to the main library files.
The same sidecar will be used, its not a "audio analysis sidecar" file, its generic. You can turn off sidecars and just use the MC library to store the data if you don't want it there.
The entire idea of the sidecar file is to have it next to the video, which means as long as the video file exists, its likely for the sidecar to go with it - if it were moved to a central location, that feature would be lost, and all you get is basically the MC Database, which already stores all this in a central location.
I personally turn the sidecars off as well, and just make sure my MC Database has regular backups as needed. Thats surely an option you can go for if you don't want the sidecar next to your file.
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"Built-in deinterlacing independent of the GPU driver"
I read about deinterlacing. This is to get better perceived motion and reduce flicker. So this is going to done seperately away from the GPU and handled within JRiver? Did I understand this correctly? And I interpret this to be a better way of rendering video?
Looking forward to this greatly! Maybe my problems will be less troublesome. Also the presets is a welcomed feature :)
I'm not sure you quite understand what interlacing and deinterlacing is. Content can be interlaced, which is an inherent property of the video - typical for live TV content (prominently sports, concerts, and such events). Our displays are not interlaced, so we need to convert them - enter deinterlacing.
This planned change has no advantages beyond dealing with videos of such a nature.
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Hello Hendrik
I just saw that in the upcoming mc30 release the black bar detection might be implemented.
Just out of curiosity how does it work. Do I have eggheads (like the conheads) because the picture has to be streched? Or will there be left and right some of the picture cropped?
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It will not cut off any image (unless you want it to), nor stretch the image in unnatural ways.
People with an ordinary 16:9 screen won't really make use of this, its useful for wider screens and projectors.
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The same sidecar will be used, its not a "audio analysis sidecar" file, its generic. You can turn off sidecars and just use the MC library to store the data if you don't want it there.
The entire idea of the sidecar file is to have it next to the video, which means as long as the video file exists, its likely for the sidecar to go with it - if it were moved to a central location, that feature would be lost, and all you get is basically the MC Database, which already stores all this in a central location.
I personally turn the sidecars off as well, and just make sure my MC Database has regular backups as needed. Thats surely an option you can go for if you don't want the sidecar next to your file.
thanks for the confirmation Hendrik regarding this. One adjunct query regarding the same: For the case of varying width of black bars within the same movie, will the video analysis take care of it(eagerly expected scenario for me !) or will it resolve to some nominal value that just removes/minimizes the black bars (Unwanted/Unacceptable scenario for me !). And if i don't mind stretching/distorting my videos to fill the screen , can i stretch the cropped videos(using video analysis info) to full screen(16:9) display like i do after MadVR automatic cropping.Will it give the same results as far as final image co-ordinates are concerned(compared to MadVR) . if my query is NOt clear i might post screen shots of video image with MadVr cropping/processing and then MC stretching . Also please clarify the query(1) in my above post .
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The first version will most likely not support varying aspect ratios. Its a niche feature used in only a very small minority of movies, and often also part of the artistic intent.
The entire idea is to not detect blackbars live during playback, because thats computationally rather expensive and complex, which is why madVR for example only allows it with CPU decoding and not when hardware accelerated decoding is used (and its slow).
Instead, the black bars will be detect beforehand, and the information only used during playback.
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Yes, presets!
For "Drama", I'm sure you've got it all well-covered, but do not forget "Sports". For action sports in particular, motion-smoothing becomes more important. The action is typically smaller-scale and confined to the center of the image.
And a feature request: This should be VERY easy, and yet no one is doing it. Can we have a zoom function for video? Say full screen is 100%, can we zoom to 150% or even 200%? These days sports programming is infested with scroll banners at the bottom and sides. Meanwhile the actual sports action has gotten smaller and is still center-image, easily zoomable with today's superb algos. And while we're at it, why not a mouse-actuated pan feature? With that I could do a slight zoom and slide the blessed banners offscreen. Goodbye to important messages and programming notes!
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Zoom and Pan should already be supported. On the mouse, hold Shift, and then zoom with mouse wheel and pan by just click and drag. You can also do it through the OSD with the arrow keys or a remote control, although with the mouse is easier.
PS:
Note that presets are currently performance based. But we already support user-defined profiles you can use to setup for different types of content, like sports.
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Er, I'm running 29.X.86. That version and all previous have a quite rudimentary "100%/200%/Full Screen" option, but still no mouse control or pan--mouse scroll moves the video fwd or back.
If this is already in v30.x, hooray. If it's already in 29, could someone kindly deconfoodle me?
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Hold down Shift, then it should work.
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Oh my, that was easy!
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I currently own MC29 and my sole usage is to better handle the upscaling and motion of 720p video (all network TV sports) on a 4K OLED TV
For this purpose - what benefits could I expect in MC30 (I'm asking to save the trouble of installing the MC30 demo)
TIA
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No MC30 demo is available yet.
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133708.0.html
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Gotcha - what benefits could I expect in MC30 re: the upscaling and motion of 720p video (all network TV sports) on a 4K TV
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- HDR -> SDR tonemapping for video conversion and streaming
Can you tell us more about this feature, are you talking about streaming services or something else?
Any improvements in JRVR decoding performance on older gfx cards, eg nvidia GTX1650/1070
thanks
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I think steaming is referring to MC’s internal streaming engine to Panel, JRemote, etc.
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I think steaming is referring to MC’s internal streaming engine to Panel, JRemote, etc.
Indeed, quite correct. Currently you get wrong colors if you were to stream a HDR movie to JRemote
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would it be possible to support these two features in MC30:
- popup thumbnails like we see in YouTube's player ? this feature is very handy when trying to jump to points of interest in a video.
- an ability to add bookmarks to video files manually. when they are set we could have a thumbnail of the scene that was bookmarked so that we can easily identify a scene of interest from many bookmarked scenes.
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Will video analysis only work with local files or will it also work with URLs like those sent from the hd homerun tuners
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Will video analysis only work with local files or will it also work with URLs like those sent from the hd homerun tuners
Can't analyse a live stream or such, no.
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- (Maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs)
Wow, this is huge. This will theoretically fix those discs with a badly encoded base layer which gets "patched" by the Enhancement Layer (many Studio Canal titles for example), right?
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- (Maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs)
- More metadata in the library (HDR info, and more)
(1)Does the Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs) include support for UHD m2ts rips/remuxes from the UHDs as well(say using DVD-Fab UHD ripper)? I am specifically asking this because earlier there was mention for limited support for mkv rips only for some Dolby Vision capabilities of JRVR although container format should not make any difference.
(2)With more metadata in the library, can we take the indulgence to expect new HDR info field to be displayed in the Standard and Theater View(mentioning Dolby Vision/HDR10+/HDR10 ) just like FPS, Bitrate, Compression etc fields currently? Also, why can't we integrate SOT(Swag of Tools) relevant code/capability using mediainfo to add the Dolby Atmos/DTS-X info in MC itself instead of using the third party tool . As a humble suggestion, the HDR info and additional audio info should be accomodated in the current Compression field label itself justthe way like SOT tool does (for example:m2ts video(video: hevc hdr10+, audio:truehd + Dolby Atmos)
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(2)With more metadata in the library, can we take the indulgence to expect new HDR info field to be displayed in the Standard and Theater View(mentioning Dolby Vision/HDR10+/HDR10 ) just like FPS, Bitrate, Compression etc fields currently? Also, why can't we integrate SOT(Swag of Tools) relevant code/capability using mediainfo to add the Dolby Atmos/DTS-X info in MC itself instead of using the third party tool . As a humble suggestion, the HDR info and additional audio info should be accomodated in the current Compression field label itself justthe way like SOT tool does (for example:m2ts video(video: hevc hdr10+, audio:truehd + Dolby Atmos)
Hendrik has already said he plans to expand the MetaData collection for Video in MC30, so much of what my SOT collects may become redundant at some point. MC (as well as all other MediaPlayers) relies on FFMPEG (well the ffprobe subset), and hence, is limited to what by what it can report on. The code to detect if an Audio Stream has Meta Data Extensions (ATMOS, DTS-X etc) does not exist in ffprobe (hence SOT using MediaInfo for this). The "best" solution would be the addition of this capability in ffmpeg but that is well outside my expertise and unless someone is keen to add it..... it will not happen. I do note that MediaInfo is also open sourced so all the logic to do this is already in the public domain.
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I vote for:
- Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs)
- scaler improvements
Regarding scaler improvements, I am using Jinc as the luma scaler and I find that it has more visible aliasing than madVR's Jinc scaler. This is most easy to notice on anime, where the black thin contours around characters have aliasing steps on oblique lines on JRVR but not on madVR.
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There's another thing that might warrant some investigation regarding HDR.
- if I keep Windows HDR turned off, and use madVR to play HDR video with a nVidia graphic card, then madVR uses the NvAPI to switch the display into HDR10 mode, and to pass HDR static metadata to it
- if I keep Windows HDR turned on (as I have disabled the HDR auto-switch in JRVR) and use JRVR instead, then the same HDR10 video has different luminance and saturation than in the madVR case above
In this second case, I suspect metadata set on the swapchain with SetHDRMetaData is not sent to the display itself, but is used by the Windows DWM instead to perform a color space conversion of the video content. This CSC transform maybe converts the gamut to the one defined by the EDID data from the display, that usually does not have the same red, green, blue, white point chromacity coordinates as the BT2020 ones. The HDR luminance static metadata is also probably used at this point to tone map to a target of 1500 nits or something like that.
I suspect this is what happens because the VESA DisplayHDR utility, which VESA provides on Windows 10 & 11 systems to perform measurements of a HDR display for VESA HDR compliance, seems to use SetHDRMetaData to set as static metadata the values found in the EDID in order to avoid any processing by Windows itself. This can be seen in the Game.cpp (https://github.com/vesa-org/DisplayHDRTest/blob/master/Game.cpp) file in the DisplayHDR source code, which is open source and available on GitHub.
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In this second case, I suspect metadata set on the swapchain with SetHDRMetaData is not sent to the display itself, but is used by the Windows DWM instead to perform a color space conversion of the video content.
I have tested the transmitted metadata with a HDMI analyzer sitting between the display and the PC, and can state with certainty that the above is not the case, at least not in any generic capacity. Of course I cannot comment on your systems behavior.
Note that HDR pass-through is only accurate in fullscreen, so testing for example windowed mode may exhibit different results.
Please note that bug reports or other topics warranting further discussion should have their own thread.
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Nvidia has a setting in its driver, the "Reference mode", which is supposed to disable the use of the CSC or the Windows DCT: https://www.nvidia.com/content/Control-Panel-Help/vLatest/en-us/mergedProjects/nvdsp/CS_Adjust_Color_Settings_Advanced.htm
I don't have the nvAPI document available now, but the blocks which perform these operations on a nVidia graphic card are sitting between the frontbuffer and the graphic card rasterizer. Among these blocks is the one that performs the gamma correction specified in a VCTG tag of an ICC profile too.
Although I have "reference mode" enabled in the driver, there's a noticeable difference in between the luminosity and saturation of HDR video content rendered by madVR when it uses the nvAPI to switch the display to HDR (in exclusive mode), and when using JRVR while Windows HDR was active.
This was my guess as to what is happening, I am not sure this is what happens. I just see the end result, the difference in the image on the TV connected to the graphic card in the two cases.
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- (Maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs)
Hi Hendrik,
Is this please based on the DoVi_tool / DoViBaker? My understanding of these tools is that they enable to "pre-process" Dolby Vision FEL titles ( UHD discs ), which JRVR then would be able to read and render in HDR10 and send to the display? Please confirm.
Thanks
Pluto
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Feature suggestion: the use of Nvidia's FRUC library (https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/av1-encoding-and-fruc-video-performance-boosts-and-higher-fidelity-on-the-nvidia-ada-architecture/) for video frame interpolation. It might be only for 4xxx series though. The Optical Flow unit is available on cards starting with Turing (2xxx series and more recent), but I don't know if this SDK (https://developer.nvidia.com/opticalflow-sdk) can make use of it for video interpolation on them (they restrict the use of the unit to 4xxx series for DLSS, I don't know about video usage).
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Is there going to be a documented method for loading your own shaders into libplacebo?
shaders/custom.h: Allows directly ingesting custom GLSL logic into the pl_shader abstraction, either as bare GLSL or in mpv .hook format.
Lots of excellent mpv hook shaders out there that I'd love to be able to use.
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We don't currently support loading your own custom shaders. Maybe something for the future.
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We don't currently support loading your own custom shaders. Maybe something for the future.
Thanks! <3 Would be a *huge* step towards replacing MadVR, allowing cross platform playback for critical viewing instead of being weirdly stuck with Windows (especially considering HDR is slowly working itself out on linux!!!).
JRVR is performant for say watching a movie while I work but doesn't really hold up for critical viewing when compared to MadVR. The differences are subtle but there. I've gotten MPV pretty close to MadVR using custom shaders so the introduction of user shader support would be huge (the groundwork has already been done in LibPlacebo too).
Thanks again Hendrik, your contributions to JRiver are incredible.
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Feature suggestion: the use of Nvidia's FRUC library (https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/av1-encoding-and-fruc-video-performance-boosts-and-higher-fidelity-on-the-nvidia-ada-architecture/) for video frame interpolation. It might be only for 4xxx series though. The Optical Flow unit is available on cards starting with Turing (2xxx series and more recent), but I don't know if this SDK (https://developer.nvidia.com/opticalflow-sdk) can make use of it for video interpolation on them (they restrict the use of the unit to 4xxx series for DLSS, I don't know about video usage).
The 4000 series interpolation might be quite good. Anything real time I've played with hasn't really passed the 'test' at not being distractingly.... artifact-y. You can tell it's interpolated, much like how TV interpolation gets quite ugly on fast 'illogical' motion.
Offline is a slightly different story. I have a test I've been using, the first light cycle scene from Tron Legacy taken from an open matted 1080p master that does look quite good. The thing is, even with nice hardware it's no where approaching real time and at the moment, the best way to cut down on strange artifacting is pre-processing the entire video to detect individual shots (or even segments of said shots). Motion interpolation works pretty well for CG heavy content with 'clean' live action plates IMO
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Does JRVR apply "dynamic" tone mapping or the only option is the plugin using madvr?
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eve, when You talk about 4000 series..you mean rtx 4000 and that these new cards could be a lot better at working with interpolation and far fewer artifacts on not CG contant which is more demanding. Is this what You mean? or is this some other kind of interpolation than a Tvs interpolation?
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eve, when You talk about 4000 series..you mean rtx 4000 and that these new cards could be a lot better at working with interpolation and far fewer artifacts on not CG contant which is more demanding. Is this what You mean? or is this some other kind of interpolation than a Tvs interpolation?
Yeah. I'll have to play around with it when I get one (I'm probably just going with a pair of 3090s in the short term, less performance but more VRAM for the price and better for my AI / Rendering tasks).
With video, you won't have access to motion vectors or other 'metadata', but it's not unreasonable to think that some of the improvements won't be able to be applied to video OR that the increased processing capability wont allow us to get closer to real time perf using existing interpolation methods.
Rife (an offline interpolation method) is pretty solid but it requires handholding to get ideal results and extensive processing time. I use it for some HFR demos (including intercutting 24fps cinematography with HFR), and more extensive retiming of footage for work. It yields better results than the quick methods built into editing software but it's only worth it for situations where re-timing would be noticeable.
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Sorry eve, but I think there are way more important features than some fancy stuff with a gpu that is high priced and not really available… ;)
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Oh, and I vote for the (offline is fine) black bar cropping!
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Sorry eve, but I think there are way more important features than some fancy stuff with a gpu that is high priced and not really available… ;)
Oh I wasn't really suggesting it for JRVR. Though it may not be absurd to implement some form of interpolation down the line, especially as the methods get more 'pre-packaged' and easy to implement.
Plus, the topic of Motion Interpolation isn't exclusive to the 4000 series of GPUs. God knows we've been doing it for ages without them. Rife is still my primary go to. However, Topaz does a good job with older 59i and 60i sources at getting really smooth output. You can absolutely duplicate the correct 'soap opera' smoothness effect that, depending on your source, may be how it was intended.
I've already given my spiel about what JRVR needs
Custom shader support for users that know what they're doing
Full MCWS control of all video parameters
Dolby Vision with FEL (good luck ::) ) support.
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In the next build for JRVR:
NEW: GPU compute accelerated shader deinterlacing in JRVR (based on the YADIF algorithm).
Using a custom shader implementation for deinterlacing should result in more consistent results. Quality comparisons to the video hardware deinterlacing through D3D11 is impractical in general, as it can vary based on your GPU and drivers.
The big bonus here is that it also offers GPU-accelerated deinterlacing on Linux/Mac, which haven't had any access to that until now.
You can select the deinterlacing mode to use in the JRVR settings under Processing.
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The new DeInt option looks good to me. Did a comparison with that sample clip and DeInt worked much better!
Thanks
Nathan
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In the next build for JRVR:
NEW: GPU compute accelerated shader deinterlacing in JRVR (based on the YADIF algorithm).
Using a custom shader implementation for deinterlacing should result in more consistent results. Quality comparisons to the video hardware deinterlacing through D3D11 is impractical in general, as it can vary based on your GPU and drivers.
The big bonus here is that it also offers GPU-accelerated deinterlacing on Linux/Mac, which haven't had any access to that until now.
You can select the deinterlacing mode to use in the JRVR settings under Processing.
Thank you! That's awesome.
Deinterlacing in real time is always somewhat meh but it's gotten way better over the years.
I've been actually dealing with a bunch of interlaced content for offline upscaling recently and it's been annoying at best. QTGMC seems to work best but it's understandably not super fast.
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NEW: GPU compute accelerated shader deinterlacing in JRVR (based on the YADIF algorithm).
When I enable JRVR Shader YADIF Deinterlacing, I am getting extremely bad experience when using Jump Forward or Jump Back or Fast Forward or Rewind (either remote/keyboard/or auto commercial skip):
-first get several seconds of video frozen on screen while audio continues to play
-then additional time of video frozen but no audio
-then see video quickly ff to "catch up" still no audio
-after video "catches back up", the audio starts to play
-video playback normal until using Jump/FF
Larger the jump => larger amount of time to recover. And simply pressing Stop will trigger MC to just hang for several seconds before going back to theater view, or crash MC completely (closes no error).
Unfortunately in it's current version (30.0.24), I cannot use JRVR YADIF DI.
I am playing TS files (1080 & 720 mpeg2 or mpeg4 recorded tv) 4k@59Hz hdmi & bitstream audio.
GPU is nvidia 1660ti 6GB
CPU and GPU numbers unchanged with DI enabled vs disabled.
JRVR settings:
Image Scaling = spline 3 taps
Chroma Scaling = cubic shader 150
Doubling = disabled
Debanding = disabled
Dithering = ordered
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Ugg, retested it .... and I'd left my test PC in Custom Mode :( . Put it back to std Red October JRVR and I'm seeing the similar issues as tzr916 with seeking.
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That should be fixed in the next build.
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Hi, is it possible to install mc30 to a microsoft surface tablet which uses window?
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That should be fixed in the next build.
Thanks - seems to be fixed.
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Hi, is it possible to install mc30 to a microsoft surface tablet which uses window?
Don't see why not (if it is the stock intel based windows versions).
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Hi, is it possible to install mc30 to a microsoft surface tablet which uses window?
There are some new ARM based Surface devices coming out that would not run JRiver Media Center.
https://www.theverge.com/23421326/microsoft-surface-pro-9-arm-qualcomm-sq3-review
jmone is correct about Intel based devices.
I will move this to a new thread.
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Planned
- (Maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs) (under investigation)
Are there any news on this topic?
This would be a massive upgrade for my usecases. ;)
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This in particular is more of a long-term goal that'll need research and development, won't be done over night.
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Thanks for the info.
As soon as the "(maybe)" can be removed, that would already be a big status update. :)
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This in particular is more of a long-term goal that'll need research and development, won't be done over night.
Oh man, I'd love if you'd at some point share this journey. FEL DV support is extremely interesting to me. I was *really* surprised when a merge showed up in MPV to support regular DV, I think at the end of last year maybe?
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GPU compute accelerated shader deinterlacing in JRVR (based on the YADIF algorithm).
If that's the new preferred algorithm it works perfectly. Thanks! It uses ~2-5 % GPU less! gpu utilisation on my AMD Ryzen 7 5700G compared to Win D3D.
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I wonder if there are plans in the coming versions or next build on more scaling options, more specifically NGU scaling.
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NGU is a proprietary algorithm invented for madVR, nothing else will ever feature it.
But you should try out FSRCNNX, its of a similar design and quality.
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Thanks Hendrik. I have always wonder what high quality, slow when choosing these options. What is that is slow? has it anything to do with overall performance?
It also is written that using this doubling will impact gpu performancen quite a bit. I choose FSRCNNX8 and there is no difference in rendering time which is about 4.8 ms. So no differance in usage compare to RAVU which I was using.
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NGU is a proprietary algorithm invented for madVR, nothing else will ever feature it.
But you should try out FSRCNNX, its of a similar design and quality.
This. It's relatively close to NGU.
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Thanks for the info :).
I wonder how does this loading of preseting of quality work? When I choose best quality setting for example. does JRiver autamatically choose setting pre chosen or does it choose the setting on how "good" your hardware are?
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It's just a preset.
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Hi
Not sure if I am posting this in the right place.
I have been having two issues when using the JRVR preset.
1.) I usually detach my display to a secondary monitor. The first movie I play usually plays, but then the moment I play a new movie, the screen just shows nothing. It goes black. When I hit stop, I see a brief screenshot of the movie. This has been an issue in V29 as well. Everything works perfectly when I select MADVR.
2.) When I set the JRVR preset to quality, it always defaults back to Performance when I go back in. It feels like it should be an option, that when selected, it should stay selected. Not sure if I am doing it wrong. Are you only meant to load the preset and then it defaults back to performance?
Not sure if you know about these, or if I am doing anything wrong, but I just thought I'd mention it.
Thanks
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This in particular is more of a long-term goal that'll need research and development, won't be done over night.
Help me understand. Currently I only get DV with MKV file and not BDMV, right?
So if I convert my BDMV to MKV can I get the DV?
If so, what program do you recommend me to buy?
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If you use MakeMKV, you already have the tool you want.
If not, download the latest beta. I got the paid version years ago to support the development team, and I'd recommend that for anyone who uses it on a regular basis.
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Help me understand. Currently I only get DV with MKV file and not BDMV, right?
So if I convert my BDMV to MKV can I get the DV?
If so, what program do you recommend me to buy?
JRiver can only decode DV, and only the MEL portion right now. It cannot pass DV through to your display. Currently, the most advisable option is continue to rip your BDMVs, as well as creating MKVs. MakeMKV can create MKVs from UHD + DV discs, that have a perfect HDR fallback, while still retaining the DV information. This is what I'm doing, it doesn't make sense to throw out the DV portion since, DV on UHD disc has a fallback anyways.
Full DV playback with FEL is still a minefield. Select hardware players sort of have it down but I haven't really looked into the support matrix in the last like 8 months. Lots has changed. A huge barrier IMO was the lack of android TV boxes with a second H265 hardware decoder which is required for FEL.
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I wouldn't recommend trying to force processing of a Blu-ray DV title through JRVR right now. Without full processing, especially on FEL titles, the resulting image may not necessarily be "better", as its unpredictable what half the processing might do.
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Sorry Hendrik, but I'm too ignorant on the subject to understand your answer: are you saying that you shouldn't convert BD UHD DV to MKV?
Is it better to wait for the future (maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support?
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I'm saying you shouldn't do it to get some kind of Dolby Vision text to show up on the JRVR OSD.
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Maybe I expressed myself badly somewhere, but I never said that I'm interested in seeing Dolby Vision written on JRVR's OSD,
:( I'm interested in getting the DV and that's it.
Since I noticed that I could get DV on MKVs, I thought I'd learn how to do the conversion.
So even though DV appears on the OSD doesn't that mean decoding actually took place? ?
Anyway, I managed to convert BD UHD to MKV, but comparing individual frames, I didn't see any substantial differences.
But maybe it depends on my ignorance.
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I'm also very interested in FEL support. This would be THE feature that would push me out of MadVR. As previously mentioned, the only ways to playback a FEL title today are:
1. Use one of the few AndroidTV devices that support it. For example, CCwGTV. But all devices won't work with lossless sound. So not an option for me.
2. Use the Oppo or Sony 4K blu-ray players, but often requires an ISO image. You also lose all nice UI interface, etc. So also a no go.
3. Use DoViBaker to re-encode the HEVC file. It's time consuming and requires the use of FFMPEG to re-encode the resulting layer - so results may vay pending the options you chose in the FFPMEG command line.
So a solution via JRiver would be fantastic. I can volunteer to test any ideas, private builds etc. I have spent a lot of time with all 3 solutions above so I know what to look for :-)
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I'm also very interested in FEL support. This would be THE feature that would push me out of MadVR. As previously mentioned, the only ways to playback a FEL title today are:
1. Use one of the few AndroidTV devices that support it. For example, CCwGTV. But all devices won't work with lossless sound. So not an option for me.
2. Use the Oppo or Sony 4K blu-ray players, but often requires an ISO image. You also lose all nice UI interface, etc. So also a no go.
3. Use DoViBaker to re-encode the HEVC file. It's time consuming and requires the use of FFMPEG to re-encode the resulting layer - so results may vay pending the options you chose in the FFPMEG command line.
So a solution via JRiver would be fantastic. I can volunteer to test any ideas, private builds etc. I have spent a lot of time with all 3 solutions above so I know what to look for :-)
Edited for more clarity:
There are some SoC based solutions that claim to provide full DV support including all its various specifications (MEL, FEL), from full disc backups and from files (MKV, etc...). I have been testing the Dune 4K Max Vision which seems to playback DV full-disc backups without issue and does indeed kick the set into its "Dolby Vision" mode. Whether it's perfect playback or not I am not certain and would not know how to tell definitively with these eyes.
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There are plenty of SoC based solutions that provide full DV support including all its various specifications, from full disc backups and from files (MKV, etc...)
Can you give me one example of solution that provides full DV support and Lossless sound on MKV files? I am not aware of any ATM. As I said before, some come close - like ChromeCast with Google TV, but fails to provide lossless sound.
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I wouldn't recommend trying to force processing of a Blu-ray DV title through JRVR right now. Without full processing, especially on FEL titles, the resulting image may not necessarily be "better", as its unpredictable what half the processing might do.
Actually a good point. I don't use JRVR for these and frankly, it *would* be unpredictable with JRVR since that understands DV metadata. In my system, I'm still running my remuxes (which contain DV + the fallback) through MadVR with no issue.
Sorry for the confusion.
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Can you give me one example of solution that provides full DV support and Lossless sound on MKV files? I am not aware of any ATM. As I said before, some come close - like ChromeCast with Google TV, but fails to provide lossless sound.
Yep - seems you are correct - there isn't a 100% solution. After some experimenting today, here's where I ended up:
I remuxed Saving Private Ryan (a notable use case - thanks) using tsMuxer from the playlist 0800.mpls
tsMuxer identified both video tracks (main + enhancement layer) and rexumed into a ts file. From there MediaInfo confirmed both video tracks are in the file. Second video track is: dvhe.07.06, EL+RPU
The ts file plays fine on my Oppo 203 in Dolby Vision, and interestingly it plays fine on the Dune (no flashing around the 2:35min mark -it's quite noticeable and annoying). The Dune identifies it as: Dolby Vision P7 DT DL.
The mkv file I created earlier using MakeMKV is identified by the Dune as Dolby Vision P7 ST DL -- since it combines it into one video track, BL+EL+RPU as confirmed by MediaInfo
Now we know the Dune is not really using the enhancement layer as has been pointed out on various other forums, but in the .ts file case, we seem to still have Dolby Vision with an EL+RPU video track, and the playback at least in the .ts container exhibits none of the flashing that the full BDMV backup and the MKV files do.
I went and played back the raw m2ts file on the Dune, and it showed it as P7 DT DL, but it has the flashing. I'd consider this a bug in the Dune, and would guess that in general, while not 100% DV FEL support, it should not be exhibiting the artifacts either.
Ultimately I think Dolby makes things far more complicated than necessary. Hoping Hendrik can figure out how to add additional support over time to Media Center, as I'm not inclined to use a stand-alone STB for various reasons and much prefer an HTPC.
Sorry for the off-topic - was just an interesting aside and learned somethings today at least.
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Yep - seems you are correct - there isn't a 100% solution. After some experimenting today, here's where I ended up:
I remuxed Saving Private Ryan (a notable use case - thanks) using tsMuxer from the playlist 0800.mpls
tsMuxer identified both video tracks (main + enhancement layer) and rexumed into a ts file. From there MediaInfo confirmed both video tracks are in the file. Second video track is: dvhe.07.06, EL+RPU
The ts file plays fine on my Oppo 203 in Dolby Vision, and interestingly it plays fine on the Dune (no flashing around the 2:35min mark -it's quite noticeable and annoying). The Dune identifies it as: Dolby Vision P7 DT DL.
The mkv file I created earlier using MakeMKV is identified by the Dune as Dolby Vision P7 ST DL -- since it combines it into one video track, BL+EL+RPU as confirmed by MediaInfo
Now we know the Dune is not really using the enhancement layer as has been pointed out on various other forums, but in the .ts file case, we seem to still have Dolby Vision with an EL+RPU video track, and the playback at least in the .ts container exhibits none of the flashing that the full BDMV backup and the MKV files do.
I went and played back the raw m2ts file on the Dune, and it showed it as P7 DT DL, but it has the flashing. I'd consider this a bug in the Dune, and would guess that in general, while not 100% DV FEL support, it should not be exhibiting the artifacts either.
Ultimately I think Dolby makes things far more complicated than necessary. Hoping Hendrik can figure out how to add additional support over time to Media Center, as I'm not inclined to use a stand-alone STB for various reasons and much prefer an HTPC.
Sorry for the off-topic - was just an interesting aside and learned somethings today at least.
Thanks for checking! Yes, that's why I am really hopeful that Hendrik will manage to tackle this issue and make JRiver the first full solution - providing full DV/Lossless sound/MKV support. :D
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2.) When I set the JRVR preset to quality, it always defaults back to Performance when I go back in. It feels like it should be an option, that when selected, it should stay selected. Not sure if I am doing it wrong. Are you only meant to load the preset and then it defaults back to performance?
Not sure if you know about these, or if I am doing anything wrong, but I just thought I'd mention it.
Thanks
Hi - I am experiencing this as well. Can someone respond please - if I select the Quality Preset and apply it, shouldn't it be selected if I go back in?
Cheers
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Nope (& I also was confused at first) - Think of it as a "Load Profile" button rather than a fixed "Preset". The idea is that it will change JRVR settings to the selected values.... but you can still modify or tweak them as you wish.
Edit - Think about it more as if it was as per this pic where it defaults back to the text asking you to pick an option to load rather than what option was loaded:
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Thanks for clarifying ;)
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- HDR -> SDR tonemapping for video conversion and streaming
- (Maybe) HDR video streaming
Hi Hendrik, I'd posted this in a different thread (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,134618.0.html) forgetting it was on your list anyway. ::) Any progress on this?
Also, I'm still keen on SDR --> HDR tonemapping if you think it would be better than what Win11 does (with HDR on).
Thanks
Nathan
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Hi, is it possible to install mc30 to a microsoft surface tablet which uses window?
Yes, it is. I have it on my Surface Pro.
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Feature suggestion: the use of Nvidia's FRUC library (https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/av1-encoding-and-fruc-video-performance-boosts-and-higher-fidelity-on-the-nvidia-ada-architecture/) for video frame interpolation. It might be only for 4xxx series though. The Optical Flow unit is available on cards starting with Turing (2xxx series and more recent), but I don't know if this SDK (https://developer.nvidia.com/opticalflow-sdk) can make use of it for video interpolation on them (they restrict the use of the unit to 4xxx series for DLSS, I don't know about video usage).
Just wanted to say the Optical Flow SDK which allows the use of this feature has been released last week (together with the all new CUDA version that brings support for the Ada Lovelace architecture).
Here's the nvidia blog article (http://Harnessing the NVIDIA Ada Architecture for Frame-Rate Up-Conversion in the NVIDIA Optical Flow SDK) about it, and here (https://developer.nvidia.com/opticalflow-sdk)'s the SDK.
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Hi
Not sure if I am posting this in the right place.
I have been having two issues when using the JRVR preset.
1.) I usually detach my display to a secondary monitor. The first movie I play usually plays, but then the moment I play a new movie, the screen just shows nothing. It goes black. When I hit stop, I see a brief screenshot of the movie. This has been an issue in V29 as well. Everything works perfectly when I select MADVR.
I have the exact same problem.
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When doing HDR --> SDR Tonemapping, are the algos changing both brightness and gamut (eg is it doing 2020 --> 709 for example)?
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When doing HDR --> SDR Tonemapping, are the algos changing both brightness and gamut (eg is it doing 2020 --> 709 for example)?
I would expect that it respects the calibration setting in the output display settings page.
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When doing HDR --> SDR Tonemapping, are the algos changing both brightness and gamut (eg is it doing 2020 --> 709 for example)?
Those are technically entirely independent steps, but of course. It looks at the gamut you have configured in the settings, or uses an ICC profile if available to determine it. You could in theory also have BT.2020 SDR mode, and it would work just fine in that - but its not a common setup people use.
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Thanks - I was having an offline discussion with a PJ user who wanted to tone map down the brightness but keep 2020 on HDR material as his unit could do DCI-P3 but had limited nits.
As an aside, I imagine that as we get more and more penetration of high nits / wide colour space displays, the focus will move from tonemapping HDR source --> SDR displays to tonemapping SDR source --> HDR displays to take full advantage of these displays. I see the latest QD-OLED hits around 1,500nits (2% coverage) and 83% of 2020 (over 100% of DCI-P3) which is quite something. About 2/3rds of my UHD's are mastered to 1,000 nits with the rest mostly 4,000. Most seem to be DCI-P3 rather than 2020 but it's a bit harder to tell on that one.
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take full advantage of these displays
Can't really generate data that doesn't exist. HDR is not to make everything brighter - its to make highlights brighter. Without proper human mastering, those sort of processes just don't work right.
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Fair enough. Win11 HDR On seems to do an OK job, just figured that (at some point) a "better" 3rd party implementation may be available.
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Thanks - I was having an offline discussion with a PJ user who wanted to tone map down the brightness but keep 2020 on HDR material as his unit could do DCI-P3 but had limited nits.
As an aside, I imagine that as we get more and more penetration of high nits / wide colour space displays, the focus will move from tonemapping HDR source --> SDR displays to tonemapping SDR source --> HDR displays to take full advantage of these displays. I see the latest QD-OLED hits around 1,500nits (2% coverage) and 83% of 2020 (over 100% of DCI-P3) which is quite something. About 2/3rds of my UHD's are mastered to 1,000 nits with the rest mostly 4,000. Most seem to be DCI-P3 rather than 2020 but it's a bit harder to tell on that one.
Yeah - Tonemap HDR to SDR Bt.2020 is an important goal for Projector users. That's what I do today with MadVR (also possible with the Panasonic UHD player).
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...but if PJ (or display) can do above 100nits, then would going SDR BT2020 not be a great choice? Wouldn't you be better aiming for HDR BT2020 but tone mapped to the actual capability of the PJ/display (be it 200/400/1,000/etc nits)? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
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If the display capabilities are greater than the source content specifies then it should be able to reproduce it perfectly, why would you want to change that?
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The question is if you have a UHD BD @ 1,000 / 4,000 /10,000 nits & BT2020 why would you want to tonemap it down to SDR if you display can do above 100Nits? Would you not want to tonemap it down to the capability of the display?
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I don't follow, SDR in this context (tone mapping HDR) just means do tone mapping in the source to whatever parameters you specify (which commonly includes some measure that is aware of the peak nits capability of the display and the target gamut). It doesn't mean tone map to the SDR reference.
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SDR or HDR output are technically independent of the brightness level you tonemap to. At least we use those terms typically to indicate how the image is encoded - gamma light for SDR, and PQ for HDR.
You can target 200 nits and encode that as SDR, if you know your display can display that properly, which is something projector owners do, as their HDR/PQ processing is sometimes not great.
Or you can still target 200 nits and encode this as HDR/PQ. It won't make use much of the extended range of PQ, and you need to make sure its 10-bit or you get banding, but it would work similar to pass-through.
The second case is not currently supported in JRVR, and its what you would typically call "HDR to HDR" tonemapping. But you can have the exact same image encoded as SDR, and as long as your display is setup to process that, it would be fine. Might even have advantages, if the PQ processing of the display is not great.
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Thanks for all that and that is my new nugget of info for the day! The missing piece for me was that I thought SDR was limited to 100nits (or the "Extended" SDR 110nits) that was used for broadcast for ages.
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Great explanation from Hendrik, as usual. On my personal case, I have 100 nits max on High lamp (JVC RS500). So I use HDR -> SDR.2020 tonemapping, with a max nit target of 100.
BTW - Hendrik - any updates you can offer on the idea of supporting DV? Is it still a possibility for MC30?
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Im thinking of moving up from MC29 to MC30 tomorrow but first:
Currently I still use madvr with MC29 as there were things I needed before switching to JRVR, these are the features I need and have they been implemented in JRVR yet, if not will they?
1. Anamorphic stretch for an Isco IIL 1.33x lens. Manual on and off, (not auto switching)
2. Profiles
3. Enhancement features like madvr, sharpen edges, crispen edges, thin edges, enhance detail
4. NGU, I believe JRVR has something similar now, hopefully as good.
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1. Anamorphic stretch for an Isco IIL 1.33x lens. Manual on and off, (not auto switching)
Its not entirely obvious and we plan to move/reword these options in the future when some other pieces are in place, but you should be able to get the right stretching with "Settings -> Video -> Advanced -> Aspect Ratio Correction"
If your video has black bars, it might be required to either use Crop aspect ratio mode, or manually set each video to the appropriate black bar cropping mode.
We're currently working on (offline) black bar detection to automate this, and there are some rough plans for live blackbar detection as well for a more distant future.
2. Profiles
Profiles are supported in JRVR.
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133480.0.html
3. Enhancement features like madvr, sharpen edges, crispen edges, thin edges, enhance detail
Currently, we only support debanding, and I plan to add sharpening. We are not likely going to offer the full array of options as madVR has, but instead offer custom pixel shader support, so advanced users can supplement the options that way - but thats in the future.
4. NGU, I believe JRVR has something similar now, hopefully as good.
NGU itself is proprietary to madVR and nothing else will ever support it. But we have FSRCNNX, which offers comparable quality.
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Its not entirely obvious and we plan to move/reword these options in the future when some other pieces are in place, but you should be able to get the right stretching with "Settings -> Video -> Advanced -> Aspect Ratio Correction"
If your video has black bars, it might be required to either use Crop aspect ratio mode, or manually set each video to the appropriate black bar cropping mode.
We're currently working on (offline) black bar detection to automate this, and there are some rough plans for live blackbar detection as well for a more distant future.
Profiles are supported in JRVR.
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133480.0.html
Currently, we only support debanding, and I plan to add sharpening. We are not likely going to offer the full array of options as madVR has, but instead offer custom pixel shader support, so advanced users can supplement the options that way - but thats in the future.
NGU itself is proprietary to madVR and nothing else will ever support it. But we have FSRCNNX, which offers comparable quality.
Thanks for that Hendrick, I do hope to see sharpening features, it will be things like this that will move me off madvr.
While we are on this do you think we can have frame rate to show in the stats input and output, without that I dont know where I am when testing JRVR?
Ive tried that aspect ratio in advanced many many times in past versions of MC and 30. But have never been able to get the stretch to change for scope films with my anamorphic lens and Cineneslide.
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Ive tried that aspect ratio in advanced many many times in past versions of MC and 30. But have never been able to get the stretch to change for scope films with my anamorphic lens and Cineneslide.
worked fine on JRVR for me when I tested it, some details in the posts that start from https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,131214.msg923650.html#msg923650
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worked fine on JRVR for me when I tested it, some details in the posts that start from https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,131214.msg923650.html#msg923650
Ive read that many times in the past and its very hard to follow......
Ive tested the stretch and crop black bars in MC many times and never found a way to make the stretch work correctly (in the right way) as it to isnt clear how to really do it.
Ive worked in "Settings -> Video -> Advanced -> Aspect Ratio Correction" then in Window crop black bars and still the stretch isnt correct.
I use an Isco IIIL lens on a cineslide, the slide only comes into action for scope films which have black bars.
I dont want an automated system like the Envy madvr, I want to control the stretch manually from my ipad with maybe key strokes. (1 for stretch 2 for normal 16:9)
They should look like this but I cant get it to work through MC controls using Aspectratio correction and Window crop black bars. Examples using madvr.
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I also use a 3L on a slide
Which bit of the linked settings are unclear?
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I also use a 3L on a slide
Which bit of the linked settings are unclear?
All of it, there are posts all over the place, no instructions in one place.
Can you explain then how to work the stretch in MC for me please so I can test it?
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The 2 approaches I tried are written in the post I linked to
1) Set Aspect Ratio Correction in advanced options + set Window > Crop in the right click menu during playback
2) Don't use any advanced options, use the Window menu only with Stretch + Crop Black Bars > Video within Black Bars is 2.35
Do you know how to use those options?
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The 2 approaches I tried are written in the post I linked to
Do you know how to use those options?
Many thanks Matt (I think???) I think I finally have it working on my office PC test MC30, fingers crossed I need to now test in the cinema with the lens and cineslide.
It needs to be clearer and simplified.
Are you using JRVR for your stretch with your lens and slide or are you still using madvr for it?
I will report back later after I've tested it in the cinema.
As you know I want to do this in a manual way, how can I set it up with say with shortcuts and a profile for 1. keystroke = stretch and 2. keystroke = normal?
Many thanks....
Im just adding to my post later in the day as Ive discovered a few more things.... I can get it to work direct from the Window section as the film is playing but this isnt the way I want to do it as everytime you stop play, MC remembers that stretch and next time you open up it activates. I want to manually do the stretch, slide and masking all from one button press on my ipad.
So I though I would have control manually from the Options Advanced tab that Henrick mentioned, and MC wouldnt "save" the stretch you used when the film was stopped. I want to run like this: When a scope film starts I press Scope on the ipad, stretch/slide and masking changes, when I press 16:9 all goes back.....
However testing this function from the Options/ Video/Advanced section nothing happens, stretch etc etc is dead as that area has no "crop black bars". It will work if you go back to Window and activate "crop black bars 2.35" but again MC remembers that setting in the file when you stop.
Lets hope we can sort this the way I would like to run stretch "Manually" :)
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Are you using JRVR for your stretch with your lens and slide or are you still using madvr for it?
I use madvr
As you know I want to do this in a manual way, how can I set it up with say with shortcuts and a profile for 1. keystroke = stretch and 2. keystroke = normal?
I can get it to work direct from the Window section as the film is playing but this isnt the way I want to do it as everytime you stop play, MC remembers that stretch and next time you open up it activates. I want to manually do the stretch, slide and masking all from one button press on my ipad.
I'm not aware of a way to do what you want. The window option is not usable because of the reason you've found (window setup is stored in the library item) & I think jrvr profiles are driven by library field attributes in the same way zoneswitch is (and there is currently no built in way to calculate this, you'd either need to use something like https://www.avsforum.com/threads/aspect-ratio-detector-get-the-real-ar-and-write-it-into-mkvs-meta-data-nfo-files-or-filename-tags.3176044/ or https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=106802.0 to calculate it and store that).
Wouldn't the control system be better if it was driven by what you're playing? i.e. pressing play on an anamorphic title has the understanding to set pj into an installation mode which triggers the lens to move and MC then activates the profile automatically. I can see this wouldn't work if you wanted to change the scaling after playback starts (i.e. at a manually selected point in time) but are you doing that?
Regardless of how you do it, if you want it to be completely manual I am not aware of a way to do that today.
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I use madvr
I'm not aware of a way to do what you want. The window option is not usable because of the reason you've found (window setup is stored in the library item) & I think jrvr profiles are driven by library field attributes in the same way zoneswitch is (and there is currently no built in way to calculate this, you'd either need to use something like https://www.avsforum.com/threads/aspect-ratio-detector-get-the-real-ar-and-write-it-into-mkvs-meta-data-nfo-files-or-filename-tags.3176044/ or https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=106802.0 to calculate it and store that).
Wouldn't the control system be better if it was driven by what you're playing? i.e. pressing play on an anamorphic title has the understanding to set pj into an installation mode which triggers the lens to move and MC then activates the profile automatically. I can see this wouldn't work if you wanted to change the scaling after playback starts (i.e. at a manually selected point in time) but are you doing that?
Regardless of how you do it, if you want it to be completely manual I am not aware of a way to do that today.
As Ive mentioned to you before I dont want any of the "A" stretch to be automated at all. I dont want the scope mkv to remember the stretch, I dont want any script written in the file, I want to use the scope stretch manually. As I mentioned in the past I'm a 70 yr old X projectionist and I want to run as I once did in a projection room, manually... I want to be in control.
I run my shows with trailers and feature in the playlist from JR an amazing feature. I have to take many of those trailers from youtube and some arnt the best qaulity, these ones I may then leave showing black bars "letterbox" on the 16:9 screen, when the scope feature starts in the playlist I press 2.35 on the ipad and my stretch happens, slide comes in and masking moves out to scope, one button press. Simple easy and all done on the fadeout of the last trailer and the fade in of the scope feature, 2 secs.
Many automated sestems have to first detect the black bars to active and then one may have the stretch happen on a visible frame, thats not good presentation. When I'm in control of the system Im the one in control, I become the boss.
Maybe Hendrick might offer two systems in MC30, one with manual stretch and the other automated, I do hope so. But thank you for the help, its a shame I can't nail this with what we already have here.
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There is more than one way to skin a cat.
If there are (or can be) MCC command(s) to do the "A" stretch then back to 16:9 then you should be good to go.
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There is more than one way to skin a cat.
If there are (or can be) MCC command(s) to do the "A" stretch then back to 16:9 then you should be good to go.
Yes this is exactly what I want :) Lets hope that Hendrick can make this happen. ;)
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As Ive mentioned to you before I dont want any of the "A" stretch to be automated at all. I dont want the scope mkv to remember the stretch, I dont want any script written in the file, I want to use the scope stretch manually.
I understand that you want control but my question was just whether you actually need control (to do something impossible without that control) or whether you.want it just because it's how you.have always done it.
From what you wrote, it's still not clear if you really need that control. The trailers are a different library item? If so they have their own AR and hence being able to drive the lens from what is actually played is sufficient isn't it? Obviously if Hendrik turns round and says "we will implement what you want" then ignore me so take this as ways to try to do what you need without controls that might be easier to implement if they don't exist already :)
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madvr allows anamorphic stretch automatically and manually. If JRVR was to ever implement "A" stretch it would be wise to allow both systems (manual/auto) I would have thought.
Can I ask why you dont use JRVR?
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Can I ask why you dont use JRVR?
I guess we are going off topic now, someone may want to split this to somewhere else
It doesn't give me anything that madvr doesn't already do so I have no incentive to even consider switching.
Practically speaking, for me personally, there are 2 material gaps without even considering picture accuracy (which I haven't looked at at all so couldn't comment on). One is calibration (I use displaycal and madtpg to create a 3dlut) and the other is automated, display specific, a lens support. On the former, I imagine some method can be worked out which is equivalent so probably not a big deal. The latter is a fair amount of work to automate (would have to build that into how I import videos and go back and process my entire library).
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I guess we are going off topic now, someone may want to split this to somewhere else
It doesn't give me anything that madvr doesn't already do so I have no incentive to even consider switching.
Practically speaking, for me personally, there are 2 material gaps without even considering picture accuracy (which I haven't looked at at all so couldn't comment on). One is calibration (I use displaycal and madtpg to create a 3dlut) and the other is automated, display specific, a lens support. On the former, I imagine some method can be worked out which is equivalent so probably not a big deal. The latter is a fair amount of work to automate (would have to build that into how I import videos and go back and process my entire library).
If you're going to offer a comparison, it would be nice if you would try it.
"a lens" == anamorphic lens (?)
https://www.projectorreviews.com/projector-lenses-demystified/
Previous discussion:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=119098.0
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=124128.0
Google search:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jriver+anamorphic
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I didn't get your point, I am not offering a comparison because I don't use it (in my cinema, I do use it on my laptop and other Linux machines) I just answered the question of why I don't use it (and I have used it enough to know it doesn't have features I need)
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OK. Thanks for the clarification.
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Thanks matthkan for your help. FWIW, I've been working with Murray off line for some time but my knowledge and experience with Anamorphic Lens is 0!
I've moved on from madVR as JRVR does everything I need and is under active development and support.... but I'm interested to see how Murray goes as his Theatre Setup is another level and already fine tuned around madVR.
FWIW, one big incentive to move is that madVR is suffering "software rot" with the last official release coming up to 4 years old (and the last non expiring beta is Feb 2020?? so that is now coming up to 3ish? years old). I've moved to Win11 across the board. Plenty of discussion is that Win11 and madVR is not a great combo (though I've found no issue in testing). Who knows how it will perform over time as the PC environment changes....
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Regarding Anamorphic, I'd suggest some patience. Hendrik already has plans for this so lets see how that develops. It tends to work out well.
Its not entirely obvious and we plan to move/reword these options in the future when some other pieces are in place....
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Yes that's why I am always here to test these niche features as improvements are made, difficult to be confident madvr will be available in future and the envy is a) enormous, and b) off the chart expensive so need a backup plan!
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Thanks matthkan for your help. FWIW, I've been working with Murray off line for some time but my knowledge and experience with Anamorphic Lens is 0!
I've moved on from madVR as JRVR does everything I need and is under active development and support.... but I'm interested to see how Murray goes as his Theatre Setup is another level and already fine tuned around madVR.
FWIW, one big incentive to move is that madVR is suffering "software rot" with the the last official release is coming up to 4 years old (and the last non expiring beta is Feb 2020?? so that is now coming up to 3ish? years old). I've moved to Win11 across the board. Plenty of discussion is that Win11 and madVR is not a great combo (though I've found no issue in testing). Who knows how it will perform over time as the PC environment changes....
Nathan, this is the very reason I'm trying to move away from madvr since all development stopped on madvr PC ages ago. The Envy is the hot topic these days but who wants to spend way over 20K when you have spent 40K on a projector!
Ive just moved from MC29 to MC30 as I wanted to also follow the development of JRVR which Ive been testing again over the last 24hrs. I have to admit Im liking it both for SDR and HDR files. Actually I dont think it should be pushed for just people with low powered PCs or Nucs, I have the 3080ti card in my dedicated theatre PC, thats exactly the same card in the new Envys.... People like me are looking for an alternative to madvr, I read the madvr forum everyday for years and the folk say this all the time.... Really JRVR for me only needs two last things built in, A stretch and enhancements like sharpen, crispen edges etc etc... There are still many of us left that do use projectors and anamorphic lenses, we are still here alive and kicking!
I have over 3000 ripped discs BD and HDR on my Nas and JR for me is the icing on the cake, I want to see further advancements on JRVR..... Having a simple (manual) working anamorphic stretch built into it would certainly enhance it for me. All I need is to see it work in a manual way with hotkeys, one for Stretch another for normal 16:9. For those that need an automatic system that may take extra time to develop, but as I say to each there own.
Im very happy to be a beta tester for an A stretch in JRVR if anyone wants me.
BTW. Was chatting to my friend last night who also has a pretty impressive HT who I put onto JR years ago. I was telling him how good JRVR is now and I want him to move from MC25 to MC30 so he to can start testing JRVR. I know he will like it as hes always having issues with madvr, it can take years to master....
Below are two images taken through the porthole into my projection room. JVC NZ9 with Isco IIIL anamorpic lens and Cineslide. On 150" curved acoustic scope screen the results are impressive, I only use my oleds for watching the news. Lens in for scope, out for 16:9.
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Doing some more testing on a 1080p All in One (Intel Xe iGPU), I've found that Downscaling UHD content for this device is really blows out the rendering times making such content unwatchable. Did all the usual fiddling around and found that (oddly) Jinc was the fastest not Bilinear (but still no quick enough). No issues with upscaling. Am I missing something, as I would have thought that downscaling would be much easier?
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Did some testing (see this thread (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,134761.0.html)) on a NUC12i5 . Looks like there is something up with the "Allow HW decoder direct rendering on mismatched size" option, especially on high frame rate content. With it checked I get rendering time jumping from 3 to 20ms and random dropped frames all over the place. With it unchecked rendering stays around 3-5ms and it looks pretty good. Need to check the older NUCs to again to see it this option still helps them but you certainty don't want this checked on Xe iGPUs!
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Did some testing (see this thread (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,134761.0.html)) on a NUC12i5 . Looks like there is something up with the "Allow HW decoder direct rendering on mismatched size" option, especially on high frame rate content. With it checked I get rendering time jumping from 3 to 20ms and random dropped frames all over the place. With it unchecked rendering stays around 3-5ms and it looks pretty good. Need to check the older NUCs to again to see it this option still helps them but you certainty don't want this checked on Xe iGPUs!
Did some more testing, and the following seems to work best for me:
- Intel Iris Xe iGPU : Turn OFF "Allow HW decoder direct rendering on mismatched size"
- Intel Iris Plus iGPU : Turn ON "Allow HW decoder direct rendering on mismatched size"
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On the other end of the scale. Here is JRVR running a BD to a UHD screen on the 4090. Please Sir I Want Some More (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tOkpntQtBM&ab_channel=CreativeInventions).
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In recent days I finally replaced the motherboard, processor and ram, and then I upgraded to Win 11.
I must say that now everything is much smoother, despite having kept the Rx 580 video card, and I had the pleasant surprise of being able to activate pass-through HDR more easily, something I couldn't do with win10.
At first glance the image looks brighter and more three-dimensional, but I'm still not sure if it's better than tone mapping, especially in the case of video with a lot of nits.
In your experience, is pass-through or tone mapping better for video projection?
Another little problem. In case of pass-through, the refresh change is slower than the TM, despite having set "wait after changing" to 5 seconds: how can I improve?
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FWIW, I'm using HDR Passthrough to all my hit NIT Flatscreen, and Tonemapping for the PJ (as it has low nits). At the end of the day, I guess it will depend on how well the displays handles HDR natively to whether it makes a noticeable difference to do it in the HTPC instead. Given the Envy exists, it would seem so. I certainly do like (on my flat screens) having everything always in HDR mode so there is no switching apart from frame rate (which seems as quick / slow as before). It seems to make it much more reliable and whatever MS is doing to go SDR --> HDR seems to work pretty well. On my PJ it is always in SDR mode. I do not switch between SDR <--> HDR modes on any device. It is all one or the other.
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Setting up some profiles based on FPS (for new NUC) and found that Live TV was not trigging it (must not have a FPS in the DB). I had to modify the Rule to be if >"24" OR ""
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Now I've got the profiles sorted with the 1240p Xe based NUC, I went back to check out the impact of "Allow HW decoder direct rendering on mismatched size". The testing was using JRVR's Quality Preset playing a std UHD HDR BD Rip in HDR Passthrough mode. I reset the stats after 10sec and let it play for about 5 minutes each.
Set to "On"
- peak rendering times moved around by 15ms or so
- there is the occasional single dropped frames (but it did not seem to be correlated to movement in the peak rendering time)
Set to "Off"
- peak rendering times only moved around by 1ms or so though overall rendering time is about 10% higher than when set to "On"
- no dropped frames
Let me know if you want frame logs etc.
Thanks
Nathan
Edit: also FWIW, it seems much better behaved with Intel's latest driver.
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Intel Xe does not natively support D3D11, they emulate it in some fashion, so some peculiar behavior might be expected. I assume it might get better over time with drivers. Not much to do here.
You might get a smoother result if you used Vulkan in JRVR, but then you don't get hardware accelerated decoding for now. (and of course there is no button to actually make it use Vulkan, although it could).
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Thanks! I wanted to check to make sure I was not suffering early onset Alzheimer's as this option has always worked great on earlier Intel iGPUs. I was just completely thrown how bad it was initially till I tracked down the "peculiar behaviour" could be fixed by turning off "Allow HW decoder direct rendering on mismatched size" and updating to the newer drivers. Anyway, as you say there is nothing to do, just to config JRVR correctly for this HW (it may be worth noting next to the option not to use if you are on Xe?).
I'm really happy / surprised with how well the Xe performs for such a low powered GPU. Or should I say I'm really happy how efficient JRVR is on such iGPU. :) Playing std UHD BD content using JRVR Quality Preset on such an entry level chip is pretty phenomenal.
Edit - I'll test Vulcan tomorrow but don't expect it will work well without HW accelerated decoding support.
Edit 2 - Could not work out how to use Vulcan to test (apart from TheaterView where GPU was pegging around 80%). Reread your comment above that you can't enable Vulcan on Windows JRVR anyway!
Edit 3 - Just read that Vulcan HW Acceleration has only just been introduced for H264 & H265. VC1 (and VP9) is in the TBA department.
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Fair enough. Win11 HDR On seems to do an OK job, just figured that (at some point) a "better" 3rd party implementation may be available.
FWIW - I found this doco from Dolby on HDR Inverse tone mapping - upscaling SDR content to HDR (https://professionalsupport.dolby.com/s/article/Inverse-tone-mapping-upscaling-SDR-content-to-HDR?language=en_US) and the good thing is that it includes the “MovieLabs Best Practices for Mapping BT.709 Content to HDR10 for Consumer Distribution (https://www.movielabs.com/ngvideo/MovieLabs_Mapping_BT.709_to_HDR10_v1.0.pdf)” which has the sequence of transformations required to make SDR content on an HDR display look identical to SDR content on a SDR display.
I'm "assuming" this is the process that Win11 is using but it still would be unique to have this in JRVR for non Win11 users with HDR screens that don't want to do SDR/HDR switching.
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When I play ATSC 3.0 1920x1080 HEVC & AC-4 files (or live tv), I get 4-6 chunk frame drops every 2 seconds. I have setup a profile that uses the JRVR "Performance Preset". It's even worse if I try my custom JRVR profile, that I use for normal tv/video mpeg2/h264. Is it the HEVC? Is it the AC-4 audio?
Win10 64bit
i7-7700@ 3.6GHz
16GB RAM DDR4
ADATA SX7000NP PCIe Gen3x4 M2
GTX 1660Ti 6GB 4k@59Hz
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There is a good chance its the audio, there is a sync issue with AC-4 I think, and the dropped frames are it trying to re-sync, but its hard for me to fully test since I only have very short samples.
If thats the case, it should get better in a future build.
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There is a good chance its the audio, there is a sync issue with AC-4 I think, and the dropped frames are it trying to re-sync, but its hard for me to fully test since I only have very short samples.
If thats the case, it should get better in a future build.
Thanks, more samples posted yesterday...
Maybe longer clips will help, so I'm posting 10 minute sample file links from each of my local stations....
NBC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ShWfZyWSrPi0Vh6JAVs0z4IntCK0gEVf/view?usp=share_link
MyTv:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SmkPcif24lxKJuvCH3F-E_6dLwvIiMmK/view?usp=share_link
FOX:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SsIeAopUFbRVU8gLLrTaXWSDiXp20J1b/view?usp=share_link
CBS:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SjcYwXt4Y63T9jo8gZxJsYHXLCK2_vE6/view?usp=share_link
ABC:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Siq7hHMUObYnVmZ02hWmbWnivtkBTv4s/view?usp=share_link
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First off you've done a great job with JRVR. So kudos there. I have a request. What are the chances of adding Adaptive Sharpen? It does wonders after using SuperRes or after FSRCNNX scaling. It's from igv, same as the glsl shaders being used now.
https://gist.github.com/igv/8a77e4eb8276753b54bb94c1c50c317e
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First off you've done a great job with JRVR. So kudos there. I have a request. What are the chances of adding Adaptive Sharpen? It does wonders after using SuperRes or after FSRCNNX scaling. It's from igv, same as the glsl shaders being used now.
https://gist.github.com/igv/8a77e4eb8276753b54bb94c1c50c317e
I'm hugely excited for the possibility of custom shaders in the future tbh
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Good work on JRVR. I will continue to buy jriver only because of this and for the dolby vision Full EL release.
The scaling is good but have room for improvement to reach the old madvr.
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Good work on JRVR. I will continue to buy jriver only because of this and for the dolby vision Full EL release.
The scaling is good but have room for improvement to reach the old madvr.
Does JRiver support full DV/EL layer? I missed this announcement.
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I'm hugely excited for the possibility of custom shaders in the future tbh
Yep. Would be a great feature or at least add more shaders. Another good one would be ravu-zoom-r3 so if your upscaling 720p on a 1080p monitor you could use fractional scaling instead of doubling then downscaling.
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is this the correct way to configure JRVR to use a 3D LUT where I have 2 display modes
1) SDR : display targets REC709
2) HDR tonemapped to SDR : display targets DCI-P3 D65
using displaycal to generate the LUTs, see sdr_lut.png and sdr_jrvr.png for SDR + hdr_p3_lut.png & hdr_p3_jrvr.png for tonemapped HDR
I would then need to create 2 profiles to select between them using a rule like
SDR : IsEmpty[HDR Format])
HDR : !IsEmpty[HDR Format])
and I would need to make sure I've run video analysis on my entire library so the rule works correctly
for HDR, JRVR would then do the gamut conversion if necessary to DCI-P3 before the LUT is applied and output as SDR in a P3 container
correct?
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You don't need to use the HDR Format field, you can use one of the JRVR special fields, which will tell the profile if the video is HDR without prior analysis, based on the currently running video metadata.
Check the JRVR Profile thread for details on the special fields:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133480.0.html
So basically, use [JRVR Video HDR] instead, or even [JRVR Video Gamut] to properly select between different output settings.
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You don't need to use the HDR Format field, you can use one of the JRVR special fields, which will tell the profile if the video is HDR without prior analysis, based on the currently running video metadata.
Check the JRVR Profile thread for details on the special fields:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133480.0.html
So basically, use [JRVR Video HDR] instead, or even [JRVR Video Gamut] to properly select between different output settings.
thanks, I'd forgotten about those (not mentioned on the wiki either that I can see, probably wiki needs a refresh)
is the rest of the post correct?
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It looks OK to me, but I'm not an expert on calibration myself, so always verify the image looks as expected.
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I still would like to see comprehensive aspect ratio controls implemented with presets like this:
I asked for this years ago, and it now appears others here need support for positioning and sizing different aspect ratios.
Not sure if JRVR support allows this as I haven't got around to installing it on my system yet.
The last time I experimented with it, the existing scaling implementation was not granular enough and doesn't allow positioning of the scaled image within the preset.
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is this the correct way to configure JRVR to use a 3D LUT where I have 2 display modes
1) SDR : display targets REC709
2) HDR tonemapped to SDR : display targets DCI-P3 D65
using displaycal to generate the LUTs, see sdr_lut.png and sdr_jrvr.png for SDR + hdr_p3_lut.png & hdr_p3_jrvr.png for tonemapped HDR
I would then need to create 2 profiles to select between them using a rule like
SDR : IsEmpty[HDR Format])
HDR : !IsEmpty[HDR Format])
and I would need to make sure I've run video analysis on my entire library so the rule works correctly
for HDR, JRVR would then do the gamut conversion if necessary to DCI-P3 before the LUT is applied and output as SDR in a P3 container
correct?
mattkhan. Did you get this to work. I need to create two 3dlut profiles too. Any chance you could show your workings?
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it's basically as I wrote above, I have 4 profiles to select between all 4 combinations of HDR/SDR + 16:9/scope and which are based on the following 2 fields. This one is HDR 16:9
-[HDR Format]=[] [=[Compare([CropAR],<,2.2)]=1
CropAR is a custom field based on Video Crop
formatnumber(math(math(listitem([Video Crop],2,x) - listitem([Video Crop],0,x)) / math(listitem([Video Crop],3,x) - listitem([Video Crop],1,x))),2)
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it's basically as I wrote above, I have 4 profiles to select between all 4 combinations of HDR/SDR + 16:9/scope and which are based on the following 2 fields. This one is HDR 16:9
-[HDR Format]=[] [=[Compare([CropAR],<,2.2)]=1
CropAR is a custom field based on Video Crop
formatnumber(math(math(listitem([Video Crop],2,x) - listitem([Video Crop],0,x)) / math(listitem([Video Crop],3,x) - listitem([Video Crop],1,x))),2)
Thanks, Matt. Think I'm even more confused than before :-[. I'll have a play and see if I can get my head round this.
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Planned
- (Maybe) Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer support (for UltraHD Blu-ray discs) (under investigation)
Is there any news regarding full DV support?
Yesterday I got to watch Top Gun Maverick in mkv format with Dolby Vision, and my UltraHD Blu-ray discs couldn't stand the comparison :(
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sorry not very good with the geek speak.
Can I bitstream Dolby vision as yet?
Seems to be a lot more out there in that format
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I have the exact same problem.
Hi,
I found a solution to this problem. This problem of the screen going black, was also when using a single monitor. I originally thought it was because I use 2 monitors, but using a single monitor it also happened.
Anyway, untick Hardware Acceleration. This fixed the issue and I've had no other issues when using JRVR. Not sure if this is an issue in JRiver 31.
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Probably a driver problem.