INTERACT FORUM

Devices => Sound Cards, DAC's, Receivers, Speakers, and Headphones => Topic started by: InflatableMouse on August 27, 2013, 09:35:22 am

Title: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 27, 2013, 09:35:22 am
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, I'm not sure.

I'm using the latest Teac ASIO driver. It works for 1xDSD and it works bitstreaming both 1x and 2xDSD. Display on the Teac shows 2.8 and 5.6 mHz.

But when I set output to 2xDSD I get the 'something went wrong with playback' popup. Message says playback could not be started using the format 352,8kHz 64bit 2ch. Below that, ASIO device does not support the sample rate of 705600 Hz.

TIA!
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 28, 2013, 02:25:58 am
 :'(

Is it supposed to work? I assumed it would as bitstreaming DSD128 works fine, or is that different than 2xDSD native output?
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 28, 2013, 05:00:54 am
I've been experimenting and  I tried the Teac HR audio player as well.

The Teac player can be configured as DSD over PCM and DSD Native. In both modes playing a DSD64 or DSD128 file shows 2.8mhz and 5.6mhz in both the player and on the DAC's display respectively.

With MC, when I enable bitstreaming and tick DSD (not DoP) and disable all DSP functions including output format it should simply play (uncompressed) DSD files. However, I get the message 'playback could not be started on ASIO using format DSD 2,8MHz 1bit 2ch', or 'playback could not be started on ASIO using format DSD 5,6MHz 1bit 2ch'. ASIO device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.

When I enable bitstreaming with DoP, playing DSD64 and 128 works as expected, with display on the DAC showing 2.6 and 5.8MHz. Obviously this bypasses all DSP and volume processing but it shows DoP supports DSD128.

When I enable DoP in Output format, disabled bitstreaming (none). Playing DSD64 and 128 works and as expected both show 2.6MHz on the DAC's display.

When I enable 2xDSD in native format in output format, I can't play anything. The message is essentially the same as I got with ticking DSD in bitstreaming:
DSD128: playback could not be started on output ASIO using format 705,6kHz 64bit 2ch. Device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.
DSD64: playback could not be started on output ASIO using format 352,8kHz 64bit 2ch. Device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.
16/44 Flac: playback could not be started on output ASIO using format 44,1kHz 64bit 2ch. Device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.

Not, I'm still a bit of a nitwit with all this, but I find the 64bit confusing. First, the DAC doesn't support 64bit (and I can't configure or force it to 32) and secondly 2xDSD in native format shouldn't do anything with 352,8 or 705,6 kHz. Native 2xDSD should send 1bit 5644800 Hz. If native is misleading and in reality it tries 2xDSD over DoP, it should do 352,8 kHz in 32bit, simply double the sample rate as it uses for 1xDSD.

Now the fact that the Teac player does both DoP and native for both 1x and 2xDSD, I think somehow MC is doing something wrong. At least as far as Teac is concerned  ;).

I would really like to get 2xDSD working, DoP or native I don't care but its more or less the reason I chose this DAC (and the fact it was the only sub $1000 supporting it ;D).
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: 6233638 on August 28, 2013, 05:20:51 am
Not, I'm still a bit of a nitwit with all this, but I find the 64bit confusing.
64-bit shows up in the error message when sending any device a format it does not support. (I'm sure I reported this months ago)
Media Center is probably working down a list of 64 > 32 > 24 > 16 with the auto bit-depth option, but something else (e.g. sample rate) is causing it to stop before it evaluates bit-depth.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 28, 2013, 05:39:14 am
Yeh I think you're right. I guess its reporting 64bit because that's how its processing the files internally. I think audio path is confusing too with DSD, I'll make a separate post for that.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 28, 2013, 01:32:12 pm
Matt? If its not too much to ask ... could you help out here please?
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2013, 11:34:28 am
Quote
I'm using the latest Teac ASIO driver. It works for 1xDSD and it works bitstreaming both 1x and 2xDSD. Display on the Teac shows 2.8 and 5.6 mHz.

Quote
With MC, when I enable bitstreaming and tick DSD (not DoP) and disable all DSP functions including output format it should simply play (uncompressed) DSD files. However, I get the message 'playback could not be started on ASIO using format DSD 2,8MHz 1bit 2ch', or 'playback could not be started on ASIO using format DSD 5,6MHz 1bit 2ch'. ASIO device does not support sample rate of 705600 Hz.

I'm confused.  You start by saying it works, then follow-up by saying it doesn't work.

Does it ever work in MC using ASIO?

(ps. there's no need to manually disable DSP when bitstreaming -- it happens automatically, since it's impossible to use DSP with bitstreaming)
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 11:49:54 am
As output format in DSP: DoP works, 2xDSD native does not work.

Bitstreaming: DSD doesn't work, DoP works.

I'm mostly interested in outputting 2xDSD, either native or via DoP (but both should work).

Thanks Matt.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2013, 11:56:34 am
Bitstreaming: DSD doesn't work, DoP works.

Start there.

It sounds like the ASIO driver doesn't do native DSD.  ASIO v2.1 adds a custom format kASIODSDFormat that the driver must support for native DSD.  Many drivers don't support native DSD, but instead only DoP.

Does this sound correct?
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 12:12:08 pm
Sorry I don't think that's it.

According to the website (http://audio.teac.com/product/hr_audio_player/reviews/):
Quote
ASIO 2.1 and DoP modes for DSD 2.8/5.6MHz playback
A combination of the UD-501 and a Windows PC supports DSD Native playback, processing DSD data into analog audio signal directly, without prior PCM conversion. Both ASIO 2.1 and DoP (DSD over PCM) modes, as well as both 5.6MHz and 2.8MHz DSD files are also supported with this configuration.

If you look at the attached screenshot, you can see the Teac player has ASIO selected, DSD native and is playing a DSD128 file (5.6MHz in display).

That same device is selected in MC.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2013, 12:14:30 pm
There's some disagreement about how to report bit sizes and sample rates with ASIO when using DSD.  We try to support both methods, and it works with a wide range of hardware.

But maybe there's something special about the Teac?

Maybe you could contact Teac?  We'd be happy to work with them.  I'm matt at jriver if you'd like to share my contact details.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 12:19:32 pm
Thanks for the help Matt, I'll do that.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2013, 12:27:43 pm
You could also share a log showing ASIO playback failing to start.  The logging is pretty good, so it'll probably get us close to the issue.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 12:33:57 pm
Now were talking ;D

Output set to 2xDSD native. First file is from 1xDSD file, second file is a 2xDSD file.

PS. I sent a support request to Teac, hopefully they get back with positive news too.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2013, 12:37:27 pm
Now were talking ;D

Output set to 2xDSD native. First file is from 1xDSD file, second file is a 2xDSD file.

PS. I sent a support request to Teac, hopefully they get back with positive news too.

The logs are empty.  Did you turn logging on?

To start, make sure you're bitstreaming DSD (which means all of DSP Studio is irrelevant).
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 12:45:32 pm
Oh sorry, I should have checked the files.

I made new ones but they are empty too. Logging is enabled, I reset the log, reproduce the problem, report problem under logging (file is created on desktop) and I reset it again.

 :-\
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 12:47:34 pm
And yes, bitstreaming with DSD enabled, I was typing too hard and not thinking enough  ;).
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 01:32:36 pm
That was weird, took me a few tries but finally I have a log with hopefully some useful info.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2013, 01:36:07 pm
We put it in DSD mode, then it created buffers of type ASIOSTInt32LSB (32 bit integer).

However, in DSD mode we expect either buffers of type ASIOSTDSDInt8LSB1 or ASIOSTDSDInt8MSB1.  I'm not sure what ASIOSTInt32LSB would mean in this case, and I've never seen it from any other devices.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: JimH on August 29, 2013, 01:38:04 pm
You could offer Teac a license if they would like to test or work with us.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 01:41:19 pm
I would if it makes a difference, first lets see what they come back with ;).

I found a piece of CPP code implementing ASIO with those buffers. No idea if that would help  ;).

http://kmt.hku.nl/~pieter/SOFT/CMP/src/portaudio/pa_asio/pa_asio.cpp

Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 01:51:14 pm
Or maybe this helps?

Code: [Select]
Found 3 ASIO driver(s).
======================================================================
Name: cmasiopPCIX
CLSID: {71E563BB-2BEB-4AF6-9F4B-2629AC49314F}
Path: c:\windows\SysWow64\cmasiop.dll
Version: 1
Input channels: 2
Output channels 8
Buffer sizes: min 4, max 15360, preferred 2400, granularity 64
Current sample rate: 48000.00Hz
Supported rates: 44100Hz, 48000Hz, 88200Hz, 96000Hz, 176400Hz, 192000Hz
ASIOOutputReady: supported
Latencies: input 2400, output 4800
CanInputMonitor: No
CanTimeInfo: Yes
CanTimeCode: Yes
CanTransport: No
CanInputGain: No
CanInputMeter: No
SupportPCMFormat: No
CanOutputGain: No
SupportDSDFormat: No
CanOutputMeter: No
Input channel 0 not active
Name: IN-00
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 1
Input channel 1 not active
Name: IN-01
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 1
Output channel 0 not active
Name: L
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 1 not active
Name: R
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 2 not active
Name: Ls
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 3 not active
Name: Rs
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 4 not active
Name: C
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 5 not active
Name: Sub
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 6 not active
Name: Lb
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 7 not active
Name: Rb
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
======================================================================
Name: JRiver Media Center 19
CLSID: {FBD8E51C-6638-4867-A3C9-D0C099CC51E0}
Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\J River\Media Center 19\Drivers\JRiverASIODriver.dll
Version: 1
Input channels: 0
Output channels 16
Buffer sizes: min 512, max 512, preferred 512, granularity 0
Current sample rate: 44100.00Hz
Supported rates: 8000Hz, 11025Hz, 22050Hz, 32000Hz, 44100Hz, 48000Hz, 88200Hz, 96000Hz, 176400Hz, 192000Hz, 4128831Hz, 63Hz, 7209045Hz, 6422625Hz, 6619244Hz, 7602208Hz, 2097263Hz, 6619239Hz, 2097268Hz, 6815843Hz, 7209057Hz
ASIOOutputReady: not supported
Latencies: input 512, output 1024
CanInputMonitor: Yes
CanTimeInfo: Yes
CanTimeCode: Yes
CanTransport: No
CanInputGain: No
CanInputMeter: No
SupportPCMFormat: No
CanOutputGain: No
SupportDSDFormat: No
CanOutputMeter: No
Output channel 0 active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 1 active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 2 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 3 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 4 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 5 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 6 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 7 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 8 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 9 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 10 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 11 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 12 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 13 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 14 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 15 not active
Name: Channel
Sample type: 19 (ASIOSTFloat32LSB)
Channel group: 0
======================================================================
Name: TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER
CLSID: {6C873568-0360-481D-AF2F-C60DF0BF508C}
Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\TEAC\AsioUsbAudio\TeacAsioUD.dll
Version: 1
Input channels: 0
Output channels 2
Buffer sizes: min 3528, max 3528, preferred 3528, granularity 0
Current sample rate: 176400.00Hz
Supported rates: 44100Hz, 48000Hz, 88200Hz, 96000Hz, 176400Hz, 192000Hz
ASIOOutputReady: supported
Latencies: input 3528, output 4610
CanInputMonitor: Yes
CanTimeInfo: Yes
CanTimeCode: Yes
CanTransport: No
CanInputGain: No
CanInputMeter: No
SupportPCMFormat: Yes
CanOutputGain: No
SupportDSDFormat: Yes
CanOutputMeter: No
Output channel 0 not active
Name: TEAC USB AUDIO DEVICE Out 01
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
Output channel 1 not active
Name: TEAC USB AUDIO DEVICE Out 02
Sample type: 18 (ASIOSTInt32LSB)
Channel group: 0
======================================================================
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2013, 02:14:14 pm
I found a piece of CPP code implementing ASIO with those buffers. No idea if that would help  ;).

We support all ASIO buffer types.  However, some are appropriate for PCM and some for DSD.

The problem here appears to be that the driver is using a PCM buffer type while in DSD mode.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on August 29, 2013, 02:16:10 pm
Right. But you can fix it?  :-*
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on August 29, 2013, 02:24:09 pm
Right. But you can fix it?  :-*

No.  We need Teac's help.  It looks like a driver bug to me, but they might have a better explanation.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 04, 2013, 07:33:02 am
I've chased Teac for a reply as I hadn't heard from them yet.

If they contact you (which I requested) please let me know so I can stop bugging them.

Thanks.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on September 04, 2013, 10:10:04 am
I've chased Teac for a reply as I hadn't heard from them yet.

If they contact you (which I requested) please let me know so I can stop bugging them.

Thanks.

Nothing yet.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 05, 2013, 01:07:10 am
I actually got a reply this morning that they are looking into it.
Title: Another way to get upsampling 2xDSD on TEAC (and others)...
Post by: Archimago on September 07, 2013, 03:15:23 am
Been looking into this this evening...

Here's another way to get PCM --> 2xDSD upsampling in realtime.

Get ASIOProxyInstall here (it's also part of the foobar foo_input_sacd package):
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_dsd_asio/

Install that. Now you select "foo_dsd_asio" as the ASIO driver rather than "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER" under Player/Playback Options.

Go into "Device settings..." and "Open Driver Control Panel". A window opens, make sure ASIO Driver is "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER", DSD Playback Method either "ASIO Native" or "DoP Marker 0x05/0xFA", and set PCM to DSD Method to "SDM Type A" (I assume all would work), Fs as "DSD128".

In Player/DSP Studio settings don't use DSD output encoding (we're letting ASIOProxy doing this after all), set it to "None".

Now play your PCM file and you'll see the TEAC will be playing 5.6MHz DSD. The downside to this is that JRiver isn't going to bitstream true DSD properly; neither DSD64/128 .dff/.dsf will play properly in JRiver.

Since ASIOProxy seems to play PCM --> DSD128 with both ASIO native and DoP, maybe Matt can have a look at the source code and see what they're doing with the buffers, especially if TEAC doesn't come through with a fix!?

DSD128 sounds good BTW  8)
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 07, 2013, 03:32:03 am
This is great! Just got it to work too.

Thanks for sharing this, awesome to have this working.

Not sure if there would be any difference apart from who's doing the encoding, but you can set MC to 2xDSD native too and you can leave the PCM to DSD method in ASIOProxy to None. You would have to configure ASIOProxy for DoP output and set FS to DSD128.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Archimago on September 07, 2013, 01:17:45 pm
Yup, you're right, I was using an older version of ASIOproxy and I just tried the newest version 0.6.5 and set it to:
ASIO Driver "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER", DSD Playback Method "DoP Marker 0x05/0xFA", PCM to DSD "None", Fs "DSD128", DSD/PCM Transition: 0ms

MC's Output Encoding to: "2xDSD in native format"
MC's Bitstreaming: "Yes (DSD over PCM (DoP))"

Now all PCM is converted to 2xDSD. And DSD files are streamed proper as either DSD64 or DSD128 in DoP. Cool... Everything works   ;D

Would ideally prefer not to use the ASIOProxy kludge so hopefully TEAC/JRiver can work this out to also have ASIO native working eventually...

Addendum: Thought I'd put up a little HOWTO for this on my blog:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/howto-getting-jriver-mc19-2xdsd.html (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/howto-getting-jriver-mc19-2xdsd.html)

Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 07, 2013, 01:25:00 pm
If you set MC to bitstreaming, DSP output is bypassed. I assume you know this and its what you want because it won't convert your DSD files to PCM to process them, but you'll loose volume leveling etc.

Thought I'd point that out just in case.

Another thing, I noticed when I let ASIOproxy do the encoding it's not accepting 48khz or multiples thereof. I suppose this is another reason to use 2xDSD output from MC :P.

Either way, its great to be able to use this finally. It was one of the features I was looking forward to, so I was a little dissapointed when it didn't work as I expected.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Archimago on September 07, 2013, 01:58:01 pm
Good reminder about bitstreaming and loss of MC processing. Didn't notice earlier about the loss of 48kHz upsampling with ASIOProxy before! Better to let MC19 do the upsampling in any case  ;)
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: lmf22 on September 07, 2013, 02:28:33 pm
Thanks Archimago!  I got DSD128 upsampling to work using your method.  Works fine with all sample rates from 44.1kHz to 192kHz.  The TEAC's display confirmed that it is receiving 5.6MHz and using DoP method.

In the past couple of days I have been playing with it, and found a similar workaround, but using JPlay ASIO as the Audio Device.  However, with JPlay ASIO, I had to set the buffer to at least 100 milliseconds (stuttering if set lower than that).  With your method using ASIOProxy, I can set buffer to "Minimum hardware size."  I found that lower buffer settings sound better.  Also, using the JPlay ASIO method, the bass and mid-bass sounds bloated and muddy.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Archimago on September 07, 2013, 06:22:01 pm
Hi lmf22.

Glad it works for you. Interesting. I'll have to play with the buffers to see what happens.  ;)

The middle class man's EMM DAC2X with the added ability to accept native DSD128 thru USB ;D
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Archimago on September 07, 2013, 07:22:01 pm
Just tried the "Minimum hardware size" setting. Yup, works good, sounds good. My CPU utilization went up to 15-20% from 10-15%.

No snap/crackle/pops.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 08, 2013, 11:47:57 am
Psst. Buddy ...

Quote
PM could not be sent to 'Archimago' as their inbox is full!

 :P
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on September 09, 2013, 09:14:53 am
Please let me know if you hear from Teac.

I also asked Maxim, the author of ASIO proxy, about supporting 32-bit PCM integer buffers when playing as DSD.

I'll follow-up if I learn anything more.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 09, 2013, 09:41:03 am
Will do.

Thanks Matt!
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Archimago on September 13, 2013, 07:06:55 pm
Psst. Buddy ...

 :P

Sorry dude... Forgot to delete the messages!   :-[

So... Anyone interested in some objective measurements and subjective impression, here's my take:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html)

Cheers!
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on September 13, 2013, 09:00:24 pm
Sorry dude... Forgot to delete the messages!   :-[

So... Anyone interested in some objective measurements and subjective impression, here's my take:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html)

Cheers!


That was fascinating.  Thanks for doing all those tests and for sharing.

I'm happy to see our DSD encoder instrument test well.  DSD encoding has some "squish" since there's no tightly defined noise shaper, dither, or upsampler.  I think we made good decisions, and we do everything with 64bit precision, but it's always nice to see tests back it up.

As for the subjective opinion part, it would be fun to create a filter in Parametric Equalizer that added DSD-like high frequency noise to high sample rate PCM and compare it to native DSD.  If your theory that high frequency fuzz might be the thing that people find pleasing, then I would expect doing it in PCM to give all the same "benefit."

Anyway, thanks again.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: lmf22 on September 13, 2013, 10:44:16 pm
So... Anyone interested in some objective measurements and subjective impression, here's my take:
http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html (http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html)

Archimago, thanks for doing the measurements!  I posted my impressions of PCM2DSD in the comments section of your blog. 
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 14, 2013, 10:35:38 am
Thanks for sharing!

I am wondering ... is the type of distortion we're seeing in DSD something similar to the distortion in a vacuum tube amp?
Title: Re: Another way to get upsampling 2xDSD on TEAC (and others)...
Post by: Bigguy49 on September 15, 2013, 12:11:02 pm
Been looking into this this evening...

Here's another way to get PCM --> 2xDSD upsampling in realtime.

Get ASIOProxyInstall here (it's also part of the foobar foo_input_sacd package):
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/foo_dsd_asio/

Install that. Now you select "foo_dsd_asio" as the ASIO driver rather than "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER" under Player/Playback Options.

Go into "Device settings..." and "Open Driver Control Panel". A window opens, make sure ASIO Driver is "TEAC ASIO USB DRIVER", DSD Playback Method either "ASIO Native" or "DoP Marker 0x05/0xFA", and set PCM to DSD Method to "SDM Type A" (I assume all would work), Fs as "DSD128".

In Player/DSP Studio settings don't use DSD output encoding (we're letting ASIOProxy doing this after all), set it to "None".

Now play your PCM file and you'll see the TEAC will be playing 5.6MHz DSD. The downside to this is that JRiver isn't going to bitstream true DSD properly; neither DSD64/128 .dff/.dsf will play properly in JRiver.

Since ASIOProxy seems to play PCM --> DSD128 with both ASIO native and DoP, maybe Matt can have a look at the source code and see what they're doing with the buffers, especially if TEAC doesn't come through with a fix!?

DSD128 sounds good BTW  8)

I see from this post the mention of "...(and others)".  I am interested in the "other being the Mytek DAC after reading about this concept in Archimago's Musings.

Has anyone developed a process for doing PCM to DSD upsampling with the Mytek?  I understand that I would need to upgrade the MC18 I am using now to MC19Beta.

Is this upsampling something that can be implemented readily and painlessly for us less technically inclined?

Does implementation of this upsampling interfere with playback of DSD and 2XDSD files which is working fine for me right now?

Thanks.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: pete321 on September 17, 2013, 02:12:23 pm
Thanks for the ASIOProxy solution. My DSD dsf files are now playing native at 2.8MHz using DoP and my FLAC files at DSD 5.6MHz. All possible with an Intel E6750 core2duo CPU overclocked to 2.97GHz + 4GB DDR2 RAM. My JRiver benchmark rating is a lowly figure just short of 2000.

My initial thoughts on the PCM to DSD conversion is positive, music sounds more natural and some tracks which could sound a little harsh through my Naim Nait XS amp & Monitor Audio RX6 speakers have smoothed out.

I like to create playlists on the fly with JRiver, these include PCM FLAC and DSD dsf files, the volume levelling works on the PCM files converted to DSD, but not the native DSD, is there something I can do to fix this? Thanks
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 25, 2013, 02:16:59 am
I've sent Teac another mail with hopefully some convincing arguments why they should help me :P.

Hope you don't mind but I've added you to the cc Matt.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on September 25, 2013, 05:49:30 pm
I've sent Teac another mail with hopefully some convincing arguments why they should help me :P.

Hope you don't mind but I've added you to the cc Matt.

I replied to them too.

It's depressing how hard it often is to find someone that cares at a big company.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on September 26, 2013, 01:16:38 am
Yes indeed.

I'll wait a bit more and then I'll start calling them or emailing HQ in Japan. They'll fix it if only to get rid of me :P.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on October 02, 2013, 05:38:53 pm
I just got an email from an engineer at TEAC, so I'm hopeful we'll be able to get this going soon.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on October 03, 2013, 01:29:16 am
(http://www.cravingtech.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/120px-dancing_banana.gif)
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Matt on October 03, 2013, 12:46:22 pm
The issue was that their driver doesn't support kAsioGetIoFormat or kAsioCanDoIoFormat.  Luckily we can work around this without causing too much trouble.

Next build:
Fixed: 2x DSD playback was not working on the TEAC UD-501.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: bobjr on October 03, 2013, 02:33:08 pm
Matt,

I'd like to thank you on your attention to this matter.  I am new to JRiver and am trying to move to a computer-based system that handles DSD/FLAC/MP3(I know).  Using a CAPS media server/TEAC UD-501 along with a Nexus 7 and Gizmo, I'm able to fully customize how I want to listen to music in its native format.  I'm getting VERY close to having a system capable of playing high-resolution content that was not possible a few years ago.  And I'm doing it for a reasonable price without hours and hours of configuration.  That is if you don't count the time spent ripping of my CD/SACD collection.  For ripping, Vortexbox was a great piece of software as well.

Thanks again, and you are a credit to the software development community!  I look forward to the release.

Regards,
Jr!
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on October 03, 2013, 03:10:53 pm
Awesomeness!

Thanks a bunch!
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: lmf22 on October 03, 2013, 10:38:51 pm
Thanks for working on this!  Does it mean the next build can also do native DSD (not DoP DSD) when using PCM to 2xDSD?
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: 6233638 on October 04, 2013, 09:48:41 am
While it took some effort, it's good to hear that some manufacturers are willing to work with you on problems like this.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: lmf22 on October 05, 2013, 09:20:51 pm
I just downloaded the latest build of JRiver (19.0.51).  PCM to 2xDSD using the TEAC ASIO drivers now works!  The "DoP" indicator on the TEAC's display is OFF, which indicates the stream is native, not DoP.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: rael71 on October 07, 2013, 12:09:38 pm
Does it means that now you can play DSD files in native mode (bitstreaming DSD) and not in DoP with the Teac?
I've read that the DSD files sound better in native mode than in DoP...

P.S I cannot try it because I'm waiting for my Teac to arrive.... :P

Bye

Andrea
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: 6233638 on October 07, 2013, 02:27:54 pm
Does it means that now you can play DSD files in native mode (bitstreaming DSD) and not in DoP with the Teac?
I've read that the DSD files sound better in native mode than in DoP...
DoP and DSD are the same as far as playback is concerned, it's just a different method of transferring DSD to the DAC.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: rael71 on October 08, 2013, 02:11:09 pm
Quote
DoP and DSD are the same as far as playback is concerned, it's just a different method of transferring DSD to the DAC

I know but I've read that thing from some owners of the Teac, maybe psychoacoustics....?
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: DZetye on November 24, 2013, 12:09:56 pm
I understand that these problems have been fixed with native 2xDSD playback.  Can someone give me all the proper configuration details I need to know when setting up my Teac this way?  Will I need to load any drivers on my new Teac I will get Tuesday next week?
What is the output format setting?  What about bit streaming?  It would be nice if someone could provide all the important settings to make this work on the newest version of JRMC19 OSX Mavericks.  It might clear up the confusion once and for all.  If someone familiar enough with the settings could list them, it would be appreciated.  thanks.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: 6233638 on November 28, 2013, 05:33:48 am
I understand that these problems have been fixed with native 2xDSD playback.  Can someone give me all the proper configuration details I need to know when setting up my Teac this way?  Will I need to load any drivers on my new Teac I will get Tuesday next week?
What is the output format setting?  What about bit streaming?  It would be nice if someone could provide all the important settings to make this work on the newest version of JRMC19 OSX Mavericks.  It might clear up the confusion once and for all.  If someone familiar enough with the settings could list them, it would be appreciated.  thanks.
You will have to install the drivers and likely use ASIO output from Media Center.
In the DSP Studio (Player > DSP Studio) under Output Format you can enable "Output Encoding" and set that to 2x DSD.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: bjas on January 29, 2014, 05:27:35 pm
I've followed this thread as best I can but am still confused as to whether the latest version and build of JRiver can bitstream, without any digital signal processing (DSP) of any kind, DSD1 and DSD2 to the Teac UD-501 using ASIO, not WASAPI/DoP. In other words, if JRiver is configured pursuant to the JRiverWiki entry below, then will the Teac UD-501 be able to receive the non-DSProcessed stream and convert it to analog?

"ASIO 2.2
This uses the native DSD bitstreaming support built into ASIO 2.2. The ASIO driver for your DAC must support it.
To bitstream using this method:
Select 'ASIO' in Options > Audio > Output mode (and configure 'Output mode settings...' as necessary)
Select Options > Audio > Bitstreaming > Custom... and check _only_ 'DSD' (in MC17 and earlier, Bitstreaming is under Options > Video)"


Thanks to anyone who has the answer to my question and is willing to share it.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: David R. Williams on January 29, 2014, 05:49:40 pm
I can't vouch for the internals of how MC processes DSD files, but yes, if you set up your UD-501 via USB with the Teac ASIO driver as described above, you should be able to drive both native DSD and DoP DSD at both 2.8 and 5.6MHz.

My system is having a slight problem with something like a sampling noise leaking through to my system when I use native 2xDSD conversion on PCM files, as I was getting a low-level burbling sound when there's low/no volume in the file, but this goes away as soon as I switch to DoP.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: bjas on January 29, 2014, 08:15:06 pm
I can't vouch for the internals of how MC processes DSD files, but yes, if you set up your UD-501 via USB with the Teac ASIO driver as described above, you should be able to drive both native DSD and DoP DSD at both 2.8 and 5.6MHz.

My system is having a slight problem with something like a sampling noise leaking through to my system when I use native 2xDSD conversion on PCM files, as I was getting a low-level burbling sound when there's low/no volume in the file, but this goes away as soon as I switch to DoP.

Thanks for your reply, David. It sounds as though you are having an issue when you stream to the Teac a file that has been subjected to JRiver MC digital signal processing (2xDSD conversion on PCM files), not a file that JRiver MC simply passed through with no DSP. Is this correct? It is my understanding that JRiver MC can pass through and stream both DSD1 and DSD2 with no DSP to a DAC via USB.  
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on January 30, 2014, 12:39:48 am
I've followed this thread as best I can but am still confused as to whether the latest version and build of JRiver can bitstream, without any digital signal processing (DSP) of any kind, DSD1 and DSD2 to the Teac UD-501 using ASIO, not WASAPI/DoP. In other words, if JRiver is configured pursuant to the JRiverWiki entry below, then will the Teac UD-501 be able to receive the non-DSProcessed stream and convert it to analog?

Yes. Bitstreaming has no processing whatsoever.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: InflatableMouse on January 30, 2014, 12:43:50 am
My system is having a slight problem with something like a sampling noise leaking through to my system when I use native 2xDSD conversion on PCM files, as I was getting a low-level burbling sound when there's low/no volume in the file, but this goes away as soon as I switch to DoP.

This sounds to me like intermodulation.

Which filter setting do you have your TEAC set to?

Can you check Tools/Options/Audio, scroll down to the bottom to Advanced. Click Configure Input Plugin and choose DSD input plugin. What is it set to there?
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: David R. Williams on January 30, 2014, 10:36:38 pm
Agreed - it's one of those "happens sometimes, sometimes not" things that was driving me a little nuts trying to diagnose.  When it was there it didn't matter whether I used FIR2 or FIR3, but as soon as I switched from native 2xDSD to DoP 2xDSD it went away, so although it wasn't conclusively the solution, it seemed to help at the time.

I switched the output stage tubes in my preamp and haven't heard it again, so it's likely not related to the pcm to dsd conversion and may have been some form of interaction between the dac and my pre-amp.  Who knows - it's gone and sounds great, so I'm happy.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: rael71 on August 14, 2014, 10:10:10 am
I tried today to enable PCM to DSD real time conversion but I got a distorsion in sound.

MC 19.0.163 and TEac UD-501 connected with USB.

I tried with every setting (ASIO or wasapi and 1x, 2x Native or DoP) but with the same results.

I tried also every DSD filter on my DAC but with same results.

Any thoughts about it?

P.S. I tried with another player and and the conversion works without any noise or distorsion

Thanks

Andrea
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Karl78 on September 19, 2014, 08:48:40 am
Have you solved the problem Andrea? In my case (but i'm on teac ud 301, not 501) i have to set buffering (under play options --> audio --> audio device -->device settings) on 50 ms. Below (by default i use minimum hardware size on ASIO), PCM to 2xDSD output sound is distorted and slowed. But i've another problem. I'm on TEAC UD 301 (and MC 20.0.16) via ASIO (drivers are the same of UD 501, 1.0.3), Bitstreaming: Yes (DSD), Output Encoding: 2xDSD in native format, Audio Path Output: DSD 5,6Mhz 1bit 2ch using ASIO (not using enough bits to output the input directly). Why this last message? No problem instead with 2xDSD in DoP format.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: rael71 on September 19, 2014, 02:38:44 pm
Hi Karl, I didn't solve the problem, I simply disabled pcm2dsd....

I played a bit with buffering on device settings but for me it didn't work.
Maybe i will create a post about this in Jriver20 board because more people read that than this....

For the messages in audio path mine are the same as yours, I don't know if that message for 2xdsd in native format means something wrong or not

Thanks anyway and bye

Andrea
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Karl78 on September 19, 2014, 04:30:17 pm
Maybe i will create a post about this in Jriver20 board because more people read that than this....

Good idea. I'll follow the new thread too.

Have you tried to change sample buffer size in teac driver control panel? (Device settings --> Open driver control panel). I use either this setting or the 50ms option, not both. But i wonder why, since i don't think there is a question of hardware requirements (i'm on i7, 16GB RAM). Maybe USB issue, but i changed usb port, cable (now i'm on audioquest pearl), i tried also with usb hub, but with no results.
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: rael71 on September 19, 2014, 04:36:03 pm
I tried but nothing changed....
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Karl78 on September 19, 2014, 04:48:21 pm
 :(

Edit: About the audio path message, i found the answer (i searched on forum before, but i didn't see it): http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82074.msg582463#msg582463 (it's what i was thinking but i wasn't sure at all).
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: Notrevo on August 09, 2015, 11:55:10 am
Good afternoon JRiver forum-ites: I read through a number of these threads and choose settings suggested but still no joy for me using the JR 20 and DSD (1X or @X DSD) with the TEAC UD-501 using the latest TEAC ASIO driver.  Constant popping and clicking is heard whether I play MP3, WAV, or DSF files. I am running JR 20 on a XPS with an i7 @3.4GHz on Windows 10...hoping there is sufficient horsepower there to support the processing needed. I am tempted to try a AudioQuest USB cable to see if that makes any difference.

Edit: ==> I adjusted the buffer from 50Ms to 500Ms and all seems to be working well. Joy to the world!! No more pops or clicks!

Edit: ==> II added benchmark data.

=== Running Benchmarks (please do not interrupt) ===

Running 'Math' benchmark...
    Single-threaded integer math... 3.793 seconds
    Single-threaded floating point math... 2.336 seconds
    Multi-threaded integer math... 1.248 seconds
    Multi-threaded mixed math... 0.812 seconds
Score: 2320

Running 'Image' benchmark...
    Image creation / destruction... 0.312 seconds
    Flood filling... 0.313 seconds
    Direct copying... 0.442 seconds
    Small renders... 1.050 seconds
    Bilinear rendering... 0.827 seconds
    Bicubic rendering... 0.485 seconds
Score: 6416

Running 'Database' benchmark...
    Create database... 0.183 seconds
    Populate database... 2.067 seconds
    Save database... 1.398 seconds
    Reload database... 0.521 seconds
    Search database... 0.781 seconds
    Sort database... 0.938 seconds
    Group database... 0.709 seconds
Score: 3259

JRMark (version 20.0.131): 3998
Title: Re: 2xDSD output not working with Teac UD-501
Post by: felix2 on October 22, 2015, 10:24:32 pm
Maybe I'm doing something wrong, I'm not sure.

I'm using the latest Teac ASIO driver. It works for 1xDSD and it works bitstreaming both 1x and 2xDSD. Display on the Teac shows 2.8 and 5.6 mHz.

But when I set output to 2xDSD I get the 'something went wrong with playback' popup. Message says playback could not be started using the format 352,8kHz 64bit 2ch. Below that, ASIO device does not support the sample rate of 705600 Hz.

TIA!

I also have a TEAC UD-501 and it plays DSDx1, DSDx2 native files or DoP perfectly. Supplied ASIO driver used. Must not use WASAPI.
BTW the TEAC Hi-Res Editor converts PCM to DSD better then JR Media Center. Subjective listening tests.