INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 19 for Windows => Topic started by: DHF on July 27, 2014, 08:05:03 pm
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I currently have a Marantz 8801 as my prepro. Everything playing through HDMI, and I was happy up until I heard an outboard DAC with a volume control - actually heard two different ones - and I really liked the sound. They were playing though the USB port. These DACs were wired straight to the amp - they have volume controls on them. However, they were 2 channel only DACs - so if I wanted to watch TV or listen to a movie - or a multichannel sound source - I would have to power down the system and run wires back to the prepro. Not so bad for me - but this has a very low WAF. I noticed when I played the DACs through the Marantz - meh.... just OK sounding. Straight to the amp - wonderful sound. My theory is that the miles and miles of DSP inside the AVR has a detrimental effect on SQ.
So I see that exasound - and some others - have multichannel DACs - that can take both PCM and DSD files. But not Dolby and DTS - nor Dolby HD and DTS-MA. Can J River take in the DTS MA and Dolby HD streams and output PCM without being lossy?
I see some motherboards and video cards have HDMI inputs on them - this would be handy for the DirecTV receiver. Can JRiver take input from an external HDMI audio and video connection if the hardware is so equipped - and put the video to the monitor and the audio out through USB?
The reason for my many questions is - as the subject line suggests - I am interested in perhaps not having an AVR anywhere in the loop. I use JRiver most of the time anyway for music and movies.
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Sure, but it depends on your needs/current setup (do you have all the amps?)
Personally I'd rather go with a pre/pro like the new emotiva. This gives you a feature set like an AVR (EQ, room correction, etc) and HDMI connection. Why do you NEED USB? I currently run hdmi out to an AVR, using jriver to decode. When the AVR sees a true multichannel it doesn't decode, just let's the signal come through the hdmi. USB and HDMI are digital, there will be no sound quality difference.
When I've saved up a bit I'm going for the emotiva so I can go back to using my block amps rather than an AVR...although I must say my onkyo nr838 sounds darned good and has a wicked feature set, all at a cost less than half of the exasound (for example)
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I currently have a Marantz 8801 as my prepro. Everything playing through HDMI, and I was happy up until I heard an outboard DAC with a volume control - actually heard two different ones - and I really liked the sound. They were playing though the USB port. These DACs were wired straight to the amp - they have volume controls on them. However, they were 2 channel only DACs - so if I wanted to watch TV or listen to a movie - or a multichannel sound source - I would have to power down the system and run wires back to the prepro. Not so bad for me - but this has a very low WAF. I noticed when I played the DACs through the Marantz - meh.... just OK sounding. Straight to the amp - wonderful sound. My theory is that the miles and miles of DSP inside the AVR has a detrimental effect on SQ.
So I see that exasound - and some others - have multichannel DACs - that can take both PCM and DSD files. But not Dolby and DTS - nor Dolby HD and DTS-MA. Can JRiver take in the DTS MA and Dolby HD streams and output PCM without being lossy?
I see some motherboards and video cards have HDMI inputs on them - this would be handy for the DirecTV receiver. Can J River take input from an external HDMI audio and video connection if the hardware is so equipped - and put the video to the monitor and the audio out through USB?
The reason for my many questions is - as the subject line suggests - I am interested in perhaps not having an AVR anywhere in the loop. I use J River most of the time anyway for music and movies.
Yes you can decode DD True HD and DTS-MA with JRiver. Also JRSS is preferred by many to DD Prologic II if you need to expand to additional channels. You can also do room correction with several methods including Dirac Live.
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I currently have a Marantz 8801 as my prepro. Everything playing through HDMI, and I was happy up until I heard an outboard DAC with a volume control - actually heard two different ones - and I really liked the sound. They were playing though the USB port. These DACs were wired straight to the amp - they have volume controls on them. However, they were 2 channel only DACs - so if I wanted to watch TV or listen to a movie - or a multichannel sound source - I would have to power down the system and run wires back to the prepro. Not so bad for me - but this has a very low WAF. I noticed when I played the DACs through the Marantz - meh.... just OK sounding. Straight to the amp - wonderful sound. My theory is that the miles and miles of DSP inside the AVR has a detrimental effect on SQ.
So I see that exasound - and some others - have multichannel DACs - that can take both PCM and DSD files. But not Dolby and DTS - nor Dolby HD and DTS-MA. Can J River take in the DTS MA and Dolby HD streams and output PCM without being lossy?
I have exactly the setup you're describing: I use a multichannel DAC from the PC directly hooked to power amps. I love it, and wouldn't go back to an integrated receiver in a million years. JRiver offers tremendous flexibility and the sound quality is quite good. JRiver can decode Dolby HD out of the box, but needs a third party dll to decode DTS-MA because there is no open DTS decoder. Once you have the dll it works a treat. See here for more details http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Blu-ray#HD_Audio
I'm not sure about your questions in re: HDMI inputs, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in.
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Mwillems:
Obviously you do video as well as audio. How do you do switching of sources? HDMI switch?
I saw some HDMI switches that separate out the audio - fiber optic - so that could work. Kinda hoping somebody with a setup like this can let me know how they handle video switching. And if J River can "recognize" an HDMI input from a hardware source.
Ferday - I understand how you feel. I use a separate amplifier so that part is taken care of. I had listened to several DACs through the Marantz and was convinced there was not much to be gained. The Marantz is no slouch, but wow, playing the DAC straight to the amp really sings.
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Take a read: fascinating stuff and may help you
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/2013/2/11/deconstructing-the-home-theater-pre-processor.html
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Hey ferday!
Great find! Thanks - it's good to know I'm not the only one trying it. :P
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Fer day
I didn't respond to the whole USB vs HDMI thing, because as soon as somebody starts talking about dedicated clocks and jitter and asynchronous communications my eyes glaze over ::)
I don't believe the difference in SQ is the type of digital connection, although it could be. I think there is something to the path being as simple and short as possible - which is my completely unscientifically founded hypothesis as to why it sounds so different.
Apologize for the OT reply.
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Obviously you do video as well as audio. How do you do switching of sources? HDMI switch?
I don't switch sources (avoiding the HDMI input issue altogether). My HTPC with JRiver is my source for all video content. I have a cablecard TV tuner (an HDHomerun Prime) that's connected to the PC by ethernet, and I use that to watch Cable TV or record TV using JRiver directly. I have a blu-ray drive in the PC, so I use JRiver for optical disc playback as well.
About the only A/V "component" that I still have that isn't integrated into the HTPC is my phonograph. It has a USB output, so I can connect it to the PC, but routing the phono output into JRiver requires a little fiddling (but is doable).
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Hi,
keep in mind that there is no possibility to play back 3D content in JRiver, thats the reason why I am not using it in my home cinema.
BR
Erich
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Hi,
keep in mind that there is no possibility to play back 3D content in JRiver, thats the reason why I am not using it in my home cinema.
BR
Erich
That's not entirely true.
You can use SBS 3D just fine if you convert from frame packed video to SBS. You can even do this conversion lossless with DVD FAB with no video or audio degradation.
(http://public.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pefEbgV8oQYRaEr8-gYBtIfGhc202Yr30AvdD1ry4fpWgqqNBVh8m-qwlKPS9QJPPEQE1MatPSRJNKK3_5imub6GXzpGC3cH9UcHrVXZ5hgc/3D-SBS.png)
You can also use MC19 as your front end for your 3D library and use an external player such as Total Media Theatre 6.5 with full native frame packing. This is what I currently do with some scripting to auto-detect 3D ISO images, mount them and play them in TMT6.5 with full Bluray menu and 3D Frame packing. When the 3D movie finishes it goes back to MC19.
PS. I just did a quick test and live loopback WASAPI audio also works with TMT6 doing native 3D video framepacking and MC19 doing audio. The audio was out of sync, but it is possible to adjust live loopback latency within JRiver MC19 which I didn't fiddle with.
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Note that this 3D conversion is not lossless, to convert a 3D BD to 3D SBS, you need to decode it and re-encode it, this process is inherently lossy.
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Note that this 3D conversion is not lossless, to convert a 3D BD to 3D SBS, you need to decode it and re-encode it, this process is inherently lossy.
I'm just testing this theory as I haven't actually used it to convert to SBS. I'll let you know what DVD Fab does in the conversion.
It's converting it to SBS at 12MB/s with CUDA processing, so yes its decoding and recoding but its pretty darn quick and I cant see the difference. Its still reencoded at 35Mbit up to 45Mbit a sec with Half resolution @ 1920x1080. I'll check the final file when its finished.
General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : X:\Video\FullDisc\UNIVERSE 3D\BDMV\STREAM\00000.m2ts
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 5.34 GiB
Duration : 21mn 12s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 36.1 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 48.0 Mbps
Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 21mn 12s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Maximum bit rate : 45.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : DTS
Format/Info : Digital Theater Systems
Format profile : MA / Core
Mode : 16
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Muxing mode : Stream extension
Codec ID : 134
Duration : 21mn 12s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : Unknown / 1 509 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Compression mode : Lossless / Lossy
Text #1
ID : 4608 (0x1200)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : 144
Duration : 21mn 10s
Delay relative to video : 1s 1ms
(http://public.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pr2V_Sw2jrkKaKS-FsPrWy03f9a2oeu2GCnmnqtjvPwoQ0CLIp3quvWOpouqim3A97HEBEj6qB_o91HSgiSX49PyQrOP2X3ZZ-WpT1xGbM84/3D-SBS-2.png)
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Definitely Half-SBS. But done in 14 mins.
However it is possible to do Full-SBS manually to preserve the detail.
I've done side by side comparisons with cropped photos and its actually very hard to see the difference in 3D between full and half res SBS so the extra file size and resolution isn't warranted.
(http://public.dm2301.livefilestore.com/y2pI2iTgL8Mz4Q5z0_YZzQix4BMOYwrRRy9pl89YlqbAKXyyf-W6lN4C3UxnzF3MYqByXjEd4uvQqyqO2FAdMTk3fuaE7ns7OP_ikUSe1DcOl4/3D-SBS-Full.png)
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The CUDA encoder is also not very high quality, but it can probably be argued that at these high bitrates, encoder efficiency is not all that important.
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The CUDA encoder is also not very high quality, but it can probably be argued that at these high bitrates, encoder efficiency is not all that important.
Yes Agreed, I cant see the difference between CPU and CUDA at these bitrates.
I can still do a recode with CPU only and no CUDA in about 40mins with my 6core 4960X :)
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I recently bought a Scarlett Focusrite 18i20. I use it to power multiple channels to a power amp. I love it.
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Does anybody know whether JRiver can take an HDMI input?
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I recently bought a Scarlett Focusrite 18i20. I use it to power multiple channels to a power amp. I love it.
Nice bit of kit Matt with some great specs. Pity it doesn't do some other bit rates too, but it would be perfect for multichannel 8ch DTS-MA with MC19 converting to LPCM to go out to your AMPs.
Do you have another 2Ch DAC / Pre for hi res?
Last year when I blew a channel on my AVR I was looking at doing a similar thing with Emotiva AMPs and looked at various MiniDSPs, but none of them managed to do what I wanted and I managed to repair my AMP myself, so it never happened.
I think that Scarlett Focusrite 18i20 with Emotiva XPR-2 and XPR-5 with MC19 front end processing would kick-ass. ;D
This cheap $250 HDMI A/V splitter would do the job too. HDMI in - HDMI video out and multi-channel analogue audio out. Don't know how good the DACs are...
http://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/evolve-hdmi-multi-channel-dac/
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Does anybody know whether JRiver can take an HDMI input?
You can use the Hauppauge Colossus (http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_colossus.html) or their HD PVR to receive the signal via HDMI from a source without HDCP copy protection. This lets you route some satellite TV sources through JRiver.
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Nice bit of kit Matt with some great specs. Pity it doesn't do some other bit rates too, but it would be perfect for multichannel 8ch DTS-MA with MC19 converting to LPCM to go out to your AMPs.
The Steinberg UR824 (https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/audio_interfaces/ur_serie/modelle/ur824.html) supports up to 24 bit/192kHz and is one of the best all around audio devices I've used. It automatically switches sample rates with no clicks and has no pops on turn on/off even if the amps are on.
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Do you have another 2Ch DAC / Pre for hi res?
Yes. I have studio monitors and headphones hooked up to a Proton USB.
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Hi,
sorry but Half HD in 3D is not acceptable in terms of quality.
I look with a JVC beamer in 3m wider cinemascope screen in an black dedicated room and the difference between SBS und Full-HD ISO is so much that SBS is no possible solution for me.
Th use an other program for 3D ISO is also not good, I definitly want to use convolving in the cinema, otherwise there is no upgrade to my current solution (Top Pioneer Receiver with Mono Amps for front and Dune HDI player).
BR
Erich
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Hi,
sorry but Half HD in 3D is not acceptable in terms of quality.
I look with a JVC beamer in 3m wider cinemascope screen in an black dedicated room and the difference between SBS und Full-HD ISO is so much that SBS is no possible solution for me.
Th use an other program for 3D ISO is also not good, I definitly want to use convolving in the cinema, otherwise there is no upgrade to my current solution (Top Pioneer Receiver with Mono Amps for front and Dune HDI player).
BR
Erich
I guess it depends on the 3D technology being used to view it. With passive half SBS 3D you will see the difference because the final resolution is only 960x540 (per eye), but I swear I cant see the difference with my active 3D DLP setup @ 960x1080 (per eye) and full frame packed 1920x1080 3D.
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Hi,
I have active (RF) glasses for 3D.
BR
Erich
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Ok fair nuff Eric! :)
Back on main topic....
How about this for a PC 7.1 multichannel DAC and putting it in an external PCIE enclosure for better noise isolation with a separate power supply.
Its already shielded though so you could just install it in your PC and call it a day.
This was you do away with HDMI, USB and your AVR and go straight from PCIE > DAC > analogue out to AMP.
ASUS Xonar Essence STX II 7.1 Sound Card
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=211&products_id=27791
PCIE to PCIE external enclosure. (maybe get a better power supply)
I have one of their expresscard to PCIE1 adapters that I played around with to run an external GTX580 connected to my Vaio laptop via expresscard. :)
http://www.hwtools.net/Adapter/PE4H%20V3.2.html
PS. I just ordered the ASUS Xonar Essence STX II 7.1 Sound Card - I'll let you know how it sounds direct to my AMP analogue in. :)
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This enclosure seems like a bad idea. PCIe itself is not designed to be used like this. If you want external PCIe, use something officially designed for it, like Thunderbolt.
Otherwise, what was the reason not to go USB?
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This enclosure seems like a bad idea. PCIe itself is not designed to be used like this. If you want external PCIe, use something officially designed for it, like Thunderbolt.
Otherwise, what was the reason not to go USB?
Maybe so, I was one of very few that played around with this technology though, and I got my Vaio laptop running games at 50FPS with the external PCIE x 1 adapter and my GTX580, this was compared to 8FPS with the onboard GPU. It worked flawlessly so I trust in the companies designs.
This is my setup for my laptop: http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=988062
This was also way before thunderbolt came to market. If they release a thunderbolt 7.1 Asus xonar I'd be all over it!
$5k for professional thunderbolt audio that only works with MAC is a bit extreme even my deep pockets. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SymphIO8x8x8TB/
As for USB 7.1 well, there were a couple of interesting options posted above by Matt and Mojave but they ultimately still fall a little short.
It also has too many analogue pots, is designed for studio use, and the noise specs aren't that impressive when compared to the Asus.
The Asus Sonar U7 almost fits the bill too, but it uses 3.5mm jacks and the DACs are far from anything resembling high quality, YUK. Not to mention USB noise that I've heard in my own system with my external USB DAC.
PS. we each have our own preferences and biases at the end of the day! :)
BTW: External PCIE is within the PCIE Spec up to 23feet. This is how many of the early High Performance Computing clusters were deployed and some still are today.:) http://www.rtcmagazine.com/articles/view/101003
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and the noise specs aren't that impressive when compared to the Asus.
The ASUS noise specs (and those of most consumer devices) are based off the DAC chip's SNR rather than the actual measured SNR from the analog outputs. Stereophile (http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xonar-essence-ststx-soundcards-measurements) measured the Essence STX at 114 dB and the ST at 102 dB. I'm using the ASUS Essence ST with H6 daughtercard on my work computer.
Speaking of Thunderbolt, my Lynx Aurora 16 Thunderbolt (http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=1) arrived yesterday. I still need to upgrade to a motherboard with Thunderbolt ports.
(http://tradingpost.sweetwater.com/upload/69508359637420891.jpg)
Maybe I should also get some LaCie 8Big (https://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10622) Thunderbolt 48TB 1U hard drive arrays. ;D
Thanks to dual Thunderbolt 2 ports, you can daisy chain up to six devices to a computer via a single cable (included in the box). For example, you could connect a total of 36 LaCie 8big Racks via the six Thunderbolt 2 ports on a single Mac Pro®, enabling more than 1.7PB (1728TB) and more than 3000MB/s – in a mere 36U. Compared with Fibre Channel solutions, the LaCie 8big Rack delivers outstanding scalability in half the space, a much simpler setup, and unprecedented performance.
(http://www.excaliberpc.com/images/resources/631463/4252be9e50624af19b74da09ff325f05.png)
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For the record, you'd almost certainly be far better off going with:
http://www.attotech.com/products/product.php?scat=28&prod=105&sku=TSSC-3808-D00
If you really want to scale to massive amounts of storage. There's a version without built-in RAID as well, if you don't want that feature.
Then, you can use a standard SAS RAID expander box (or boxes) to scale to whatever storage size you want, without having to buy things specifically from Lacie. I'm also not super-excited by the quality of storage systems I've seen from them in the past.
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The ASUS noise specs (and those of most consumer devices) are based off the DAC chip's SNR rather than the actual measured SNR from the analog outputs. Stereophile (http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xonar-essence-ststx-soundcards-measurements) measured the Essence STX at 114 dB and the ST at 102 dB. I'm using the ASUS Essence ST with H6 daughtercard on my work computer.
Yep. I have an Asus ST/H6 and a Steinberg and can confirm that the real world noise performance of the Asus is decidedly inferior to the Steinberg (At least 15dB worse, or more depending on the PC). I have some 113 dB sensitivity horn drivers, so a DAC's noisefloor is very audible in my setup. I initially grabbed the Asus based on the rated specs, but was disappointed. It's still a nice card for less sensitive speakers, and I use the Asus in a satellite system, but based on my experience (and stereophiles measurements) it is not likely to outperform the dedicated USB solutions described above.
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The ASUS noise specs (and those of most consumer devices) are based off the DAC chip's SNR rather than the actual measured SNR from the analog outputs. Stereophile (http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xonar-essence-ststx-soundcards-measurements) measured the Essence STX at 114 dB and the ST at 102 dB. I'm using the ASUS Essence ST with H6 daughtercard on my work computer.
Speaking of Thunderbolt, my Lynx Aurora 16 Thunderbolt (http://www.lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=1) arrived yesterday. I still need to upgrade to a motherboard with Thunderbolt ports.
Maybe I should also get some LaCie 8Big (https://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?id=10622) Thunderbolt 48TB 1U hard drive arrays. ;D
I have an ST/H6 combo and have installed EMI shielding around both cards, the molex power lead and secure grounding on the back-plate. I now measure the SNR of all channels using RMAA around 120db from 20hz-20khz (rises to 112db below 20hz). Sounds cleaner as well. :)
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I have an ST/H6 combo and have installed EMI shielding around both cards, the molex power lead and secure grounding on the back-plate. I now measure the SNR of all channels using RMAA around 120db from 20hz-20khz (rises to 112db below 20hz). Sounds cleaner as well. :)
Interesting, this was the point of me considering an external enclosure with a separate power supply. That's quite an improvement.
I think measurements and real world performance for PC based sound cards are subject to so much variability depending on the system its used in.
The review here got up to 118dB SNR using RMAA measurements with the Asus Xonar Essence STX II
http://www.reviewstudio.net/1744-asus-essence-stx-ii-soundcard-review-pc-s-high-end-audio/testing-amp-performance
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The ASUS noise specs (and those of most consumer devices) are based off the DAC chip's SNR rather than the actual measured SNR from the analog outputs. Stereophile (http://www.stereophile.com/content/asus-xonar-essence-ststx-soundcards-measurements) measured the Essence STX at 114 dB and the ST at 102 dB. I'm using the ASUS Essence ST with H6 daughtercard on my work computer.
Speaking of Thunderbolt, my Lynx Aurora 16 Thunderbolt[/url] arrived yesterday. I still need to upgrade to a motherboard with Thunderbolt ports.
Maybe I should also get some Thunderbolt 48TB 1U hard drive arrays. ;D
Nice kit the Lynx Aurora, the 48TB might be a bit overkill though :)
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Interesting, this was the point of me considering an external enclosure with a separate power supply. That's quite an improvement.
I think measurements and real world performance for PC based sound cards are subject to so much variability depending on the system its used in.
The review here got up to 118dB SNR using RMAA measurements with the Asus Xonar Essence STX II
http://www.reviewstudio.net/1744-asus-essence-stx-ii-soundcard-review-pc-s-high-end-audio/testing-amp-performance
For reference it used to be about 112db for the LR & 108db for surrounds before any shielding (& I forgot to mention shielding the ribbon cable that connects the H6 adds another 2db SNR.
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Got the Asus Essence STX II 7.1 today with some high quality cables.
I'll let you know how it sounds direct to the analogue inputs on my AMP.
I'm also organising the external enclosure I mentioned above which I should have in a couple weeks.
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As usual you guys are piquing my curiosity.
I'm moving house soon and want to rethink our audio and HT set up. We don't currently have a multi channel receiver, and route everything through a good stereo integrated amp.
I want to make the move to multi channel, but don't want to dilute my audio listening experience.
Aside from MC on the HTPC we have a few separates components, a digital radio tuner and a back up blu ray player/TV tuner.
If we go the USB DAC + power amps route for MC, what do I need to fill the gap for my couple of separates? Do I need a separate pre-amp between theand the power amp? Or can I route line level back to MC? Buying a separate pre-amp would be a pain and not elegant.
Appreciate your wise thoughts
Z
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I am pleased to see that the question of the utility of a pre-pro is dicussed :)
With a Lynx AES16 or RME HDSP AES (better drivers imho), you can use up to 8 stereo DACS (AES/EBU) and up to 192 kHz. With the hardware routing features, you can send all sounds that travel in the system to an audio application, like Plogue Bidule, for processing.
The main limitation in the HTPC world today, is the lack of Dolby Atmos or Auro-3d support.
The other limitation that I see, is the lack of DACs that support more than 8 channels at 384 kHz (maybe the Myteks with the sync clock feature, but it's a too pricey solution). Anyway, I can live with my DSDs at 192 kHz :)
It's because of the Dolby Atmos that I'm looking in a pre-pro now. But, it's not an ideal solution, because we don't know the internal sound path in hardware (resolution, etc..). That's why I cross my fingers to see an Atmos solution on PC.
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Got the Asus Essence STX II 7.1 today with some high quality cables.
I'll let you know how it sounds direct to the analogue inputs on my AMP.
I'm also organising the external enclosure I mentioned above which I should have in a couple weeks.
Up and running. Sounds GREAT!
Can't do any serious listening tonight, but first impressions are that the sound is fuller, a little warmer with greater detail than the Sony STRDA 5200ES DACs.
Tomorrow I'll run some tests with the AMP at zero DB using JRiver internal volume which is how you,d have to use it if going straight to a dedicated power amp.
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I've shared the exact same thought, talked a lot with george, from Exasound, and was about to order an E28.
But then again, great great solution for an htpc, but then, I thought, what about the rest...
I mean, my marantz AV8801 is great, really, and I know I could go even further with the E28. but, for daily use, I have my PS4 and my Sat connected to my AV8801, I can use airplay (and for easy use, that's perfect).
Compared to that, the PHCH + E28 seems a bit more dedicated to a specific system, or maybe...paired with a parasound halo P7, with it's 2 set of 7.1 analog input, you can have both a standar av processor, for everthing else, connected in the halo P7 main 2, and both system can co exist.
but that's a road I chose not to follow, instead my pchc send decoded PCM via hdmi to the AV8801, and it's good, not perfect, but good enough; sad I couldn't get the E28 though, because it's a great HIFI stéréo dac too.
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Up and running. Sounds GREAT!
Can't do any serious listening tonight, but first impressions are that the sound is fuller, a little warmer with greater detail than the Sony STRDA 5200ES DACs.
Tomorrow I'll run some tests with the AMP at zero DB using JRiver internal volume which is how you,d have to use it if going straight to a dedicated power amp.
Wow!
Black silence with AMP at 0dB, punchy, tight and warm with just the right vocal and high hat cut through. A little laid back, but gorgeous sound!
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There is another solution instead of the costly Parasound that is I/O limited. A simple DIY mechanical multi-channels switch. In my case, I have active speakers with XLR ins, the e28 has XLR outs and the AV8801/2 has XLR outs. With that, I can build a directly 100% XLR connected system.
But, to upmix with Atmos, no other solution than sending audio to AV8801/2 with its hardware limitations...
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I am delighted to see I am not alone in this pursuit. Not pushing the Exasound, as I have never heard it, but it can do very high bitrate multichannel through USB. There look to be 3 paths out there:
Exasound e28 8 channels north of $3K
Multiple Mytecs 2 channels at a time $1K per channel
Pro audio DACs 8 channels $500-$1000
I see, digging through the archives, that Matt had an Exasound e18 for evaluation, but has gone the pro audio DAC route in his current setup. I wonder why? Cost? No SQ improvement in the e18 over pro audio gear?
I see the Exasound has found a way to use J Remote to control DAC volume. Pretty cool, as I use J Remote and iRule and my dain bramaged iPad can't run both simultaneously.
Is Atmos that much of a game changer? I thought Audyssey was a game changer, but I find myself bypassing it in 2 channel mode. With all the capabilities of J River DSP with regard to speaker levels, timing, and frequency based room correction, I am still thinking a MCH DAC and a decent HDMI switch could kill my prepro. I am of the opinion that the Marantz implementation of Audyssey is more mid fi - dumbing everything down to 48 kHz.
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My Sony 5200ES doesn't have any of the latest Codecs (DTS-HD MA) or Audyssey processing so JRiver DSP's are my best friend. :)
The Asus STX II 7.1 sounds a lot less processed and cleaner than the HDMI-in on my AMP even with all the AMP processing turned off.
In my less than optimal HTPC, the Asus STX II 7.1 in 2ch mode measured @ 110db SNR in RMAA with a cheap 60cm cable looping from RCA out to a 3.5mm>6.5mm adapter on the inputs.
I've found quite a few external PCI-E enclosure options now, varying from $200 to $500.
I'm leaning towards 2 options to try out, the cheaper $200 PCI-E enclosure from Bplus I linked to above and a Netstore NA221A for ~$500.
http://www.netstor.com.tw/_03/03_02.php?OTk=
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Hiltonk
I am curious if you have tried bypassing the Sonys preamp and gone straight into the amp using j rivers volume control yet? I had a Sony ES years ago, and iirc, it had a preamp input on it. Just curious if you hear any big difference.
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Hiltonk
I am curious if you have tried bypassing the Sonys preamp and gone straight into the amp using j rivers volume control yet? I had a Sony ES years ago, and iirc, it had a preamp input on it. Just curious if you hear any big difference.
Yes you can see my posts a couple above where I talk about it being Black Silence. I cant bypass the pre-amp though I can only use the 7.1 Analogue in and set the volume to 0dB.
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If we go the USB DAC + power amps route for MC, what do I need to fill the gap for my couple of separates? Do I need a separate pre-amp between theand the power amp? Or can I route line level back to MC? Buying a separate pre-amp would be a pain and not elegant.
Appreciate your wise thoughts
Z
Any feedback on my question about how to integrate separates components into a MC-external multichannel DAC-power amp set up?
Cheers
Z
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Z0001
I am not sure I understand your questions, but I will give it a shot.
Many DACS on the market have a volume control on them - which gives them the capability of going straight into a power amp. I heard wonderful things when this was done.
Many of the DACS have multiple digital inputs - so multiple sources can be used.
Video is a hopefully solve able challenge.
So, in this setup, there would be no need for a preamp. Just an amplifier. It would be limited to digital sources only,
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Thanks DHF
I guess my thinking is that I need source switching and volume control. Which you point out is often found in DACs so thanks for explaining.
So with DACs I'm guessing that they need a processor to have processed the audio before they convet to analogue, of course MC does this processing, but I don't know for example about the digital tuner or the blu ray player. Will these likely deliver a decoded digital signal eg out of SPDIF or HDMI? I am assuming so.
Thanks
Z
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Thanks DHF
I guess my thinking is that I need source switching and volume control. Which you point out is often found in DACs so thanks for explaining.
So with DACs I'm guessing that they need a processor to have processed the audio before they convet to analogue, of course MC does this processing, but I don't know for example about the digital tuner or the blu ray player. Will these likely deliver a decoded digital signal eg out of SPDIF or HDMI? I am assuming so.
Thanks
Z
You might find something like the NuForce MCP-18 Multichannel Analog Preamplifier of use for input switching.
A reasonable review of it here but it only has a SNR of 105dB.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/nuforce-mcp-18-multichannel-analog-preamplifier/
Or an Emotiva UMC-200 7.1 Channel AV Preamp
http://hometheaterreview.com/emotiva-umc-200-71-channel-av-preamp-reviewed/
Using either of the above creates a bit of a compromise in terms of the raw purist Source > DAC > AMP setup, but if you want flexibility for other components you need to compromise somewhere.
Where multi-channel is concerned with multiple input requirements your heading back into AV territory anyway and have to decide what you want to compromise on.
You could go for a high end AV preamp, with either, all the bells and whistles, or with a less is more approach, or live with the limitation of multichannel and 2channel DACS and have a separate AV system.
It really depends on all the variables in the components you could choose from.
One approach is to get a multichannel or 2 channel DAC with volume control and an AMP with 2 sets of switchable inputs so you can switch between the DAC setup on one set of AMP inputs and an AV preamp on the other for all your other gear.
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I use an Exasound e28 with upgraded clock and mini XLR outputs and I can tell you it will beat the sound of anything mentioned so far.
I own Theta Casablanca and Meridian 861 with XLR outputs and my e28 totally destroys them soundstage wise in my theater. There is no comparison.
I demo'd MX151 and including Datasat in my home. I ended up sending back the Datasat and paying a demo fee on the MX151. All in all, the e28 beat them all, using my HTPC, JRiver 19 and Dirac Live software all running on the one HTPC. (just in case you ask, because I know you want to :), my Meridian 861 was the second place, beating out both the Datasat and Theta Casablanca). This is/was confirmed by my wife, friends and even the salesmen. They were nice enough to bow out graciously since we did a complete 1 to 1 showdown for a 5 week period (I ran each a week, mastered them, then brought in the other). So I had all of these in my home at the same time.
It took me a lot of time, aggravation and troubleshooting to get it all done and balanced but the results are nothing less than better than anything I have ever owned or used.
There are only a few issues I have with the system and had to just "move on" and get over it. I am not completely happy about it but I decided to stay with it because during movies and music the sound is so amazing.
1. 3D playback. Forget about it with this setup.
a. JRiver doesn't playback 3D movies natively. This causes issues that are simply just to complex for the average and well above average user.
b. You can use use something like TMT6 to play the 3D movie, and send sound through JRiver but the lip syncing is a pain in the ass to get right, and
not every movie would even sync up. Worst yet, if I would pause the movie, then hit play again the lip sync was all wrong again. This was
a nightmare.
c. George simply has no interest in writing a WDM driver for the e28 which would allow me to just watch the movies directly in TMT6 and bypass all
of these issues (TMT6 and PowerDVD will not use ASIO drivers).
2. No inputs. This setup does not give any type of input system. So my only current hopes of playing things through that DAC must come from my PC.
This is a big change coming from my Theta Casablanca and Meridian 861. You just don't consider this until you are hit with how inconvenient it is.
3. Limited channels of 8. I have a 7.2 system and want to upgrade to more of an 11.2 but that's not possible. George says that it's a bandwidth issue of
the USB ports as he is already using the maximum bandwidth of it. I said, why not write a driver to facilitate two e28's, using two separate USB
controllers? *crickets*
So all I can say is, the actual sound quality and video quality is better using JRiver and my e28 than any hardware processor that has ever been in my home (by the way, Datasat personally setup my unit so there's no saying I am a dumbshit and don't know what I am doing. Each rep setup their own equipment). I setup my own Dirac Live on the PC and it's simply astounding in my room. It's night and day.
Good luck with your choice and if someone has actually come out with a product that will fix any of my above issues I am listening.
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Thanks for an excellent and detailed response.
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I've heard that Atmos is not probably going to be ever decoded by JRiver. I was thinking into something that I think is not really possible but I will ask...what if I buy a atmos reveiver connected by HDMI and a sound interface like the Aurora 16 connected to JRiver. I output a regular 7.4 to JRiver through the Aurora and I connect the analog outputs from my receiver for the ceiling speakers back to the aurora....(i know, that would be an extra DA conversion but at least the main channels are decoded only once)...
Otherwise I had thought about connecting the analog outputs from the receiver directly to the speakers but for sure there will be a lot of issues for synchronising the channels...
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I doubt that ATMOS will ever be available in JRiver.
There is no way that I know of right now to decode Dolby from a Satellite receiver.
So - this is the downfall of the JRiver AVR replacement.
Dolby encoded soundtracks work fine - but an external source of Dolby is a no go.
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Yeah that's what I understood too but what about my proposals? should they work?
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Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that Steinberg UR824 can change sample rate without playback stopping
Can anybody confirm if that is the case with Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (2nd gen) as well (using latest driver and firmware)?
Thank you