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Author Topic: DVD content  (Read 4515 times)

stavrosh

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DVD content
« on: September 17, 2015, 07:24:39 am »

I recently discovered that I could not open TS_VIDEO folders on my Mac.... so I have a question / request  to the developers and the older FORUM members ... is going to be any future DVD support for the MAC ? We need a unique solution to all our media ... not other programs (i.e. VLC) to do the job..

Thanks

Stavros
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JimH

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2015, 07:32:31 am »

Was it on a local drive?
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Hendrik

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2015, 07:44:27 am »

Ideally we also want to support everything everywhere, but as it stands right now, there are no concrete plans for DVD support on the Mac, so its not going to happen very soon.
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stavrosh

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2015, 08:26:37 am »

The content was on a local drive and MC21 reported errors opening the IFO file ..
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blgentry

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2015, 08:32:04 am »

Do MKV's work with MC21?  I don't have any to test with.  I rip all DVDs down to M4V files. 

Will MakeMKV (or similar software) convert IFO/Video_TS ?  I think it will.  But that only helps if MKV is totally supported in MC21.

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2015, 08:41:52 am »

Do MKV's work with MC21?  I don't have any to test with.  I rip all DVDs down to M4V files.  

Will MakeMKV (or similar software) convert IFO/Video_TS ?  I think it will.  But that only helps if MKV is totally supported in MC21.

The answers are yes and yes (to my knowledge).  I've never found an .mkv file that won't play in MC21 (admittedly on Windows and Linux, but Mac and Linux are pretty close in feature parity).  Makemkv can definitely convert .ifo folder structures to .mkv.

Makemkv is actually one of the best ways to do that conversion as it's completely lossless unlike other popular tools, like handbrake.
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blgentry

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2015, 08:53:07 am »

I've been meaning to start a thread about the "best" way to rip DVDs and BDs, but I can't figure out where it will get the most/best attention.  MC21 for Windows forum?  TV forum?  What do you guys think?

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2015, 09:01:52 am »

I've been meaning to start a thread about the "best" way to rip DVDs and BDs, but I can't figure out where it will get the most/best attention.  MC21 for Windows forum?  TV forum?  What do you guys think?

Brian.

Not sure where the best spot would be, but if you want quality, makemkv is the answer as it's lossless, free, supports lossless audio compression, and allows saving titles atomically.  If you're space constrained, it's not the "best" option, but for pure quality and convenience (unconstrained by space limitations) it's very hard to beat.

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blgentry

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2015, 09:13:43 am »

Well, I'll start here since we're having a good discussion.  I'm interested in high quality.  Space matters, but I'm going to ignore that for now since space keeps getting cheaper and cheaper.

My big thing is, DVD menus.  I pretty much hate them.  I actually consider the DVD as a whole to be an art form.  The menus and layers, transitions, flow and everything associated... it's art.  Not high art, but still art.  Even so, I HATE navigating DVD menus.  When I want to watch a movie, I don't want to wait 2 minutes, or select, or hit buttons for 30 to 60 seconds.  I want the movie to start right away.

With that in mind, M4V files are just about perfect.  The only problems are:

1.  Not full quality.  Maybe there's a codec or setting I'm missing which would give me full quality rips.
2.  No special features.  On a VERY few DVDs I seek out the special features and rip them as separate videos.  That's quite rare and it's very time consuming.
3.  Audio tracks and subtitles.  I've gotten pretty good at figuring out which ones to include, but it's still time consuming.
4.  Multi-episode DVDs like TV series.  Very time consuming to ID the DVD title that contains each episode, name it, set the audio options, and queue it up.  I've gotten much faster at this, but it's still a pain.

I probably want something that doesn't exist.  I'm asking because people here are bound to know more than I do about this subject.

I was recently researching digital downloads of movies instead of ripping DVD or BDs.  They seem to be largely confined to mobile devices and locked up in some way.  I.E., streaming only, or only playable on a certain app on a certain device, etc.  My idea was an easier path to obtaining (legally) the movies I want to watch.  Digital downloads don't seem to be there yet, so I'm back to ripping optical (DVD and BD) discs.

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2015, 09:45:23 am »

Mods feel free to split this if it's too threadjacky, but OP could benefit from this discussion if he wants to convert his .ifos

Well, I'll start here since we're having a good discussion.  I'm interested in high quality.  Space matters, but I'm going to ignore that for now since space keeps getting cheaper and cheaper.

My big thing is, DVD menus.  I pretty much hate them.  I actually consider the DVD as a whole to be an art form.  The menus and layers, transitions, flow and everything associated... it's art.  Not high art, but still art.  Even so, I HATE navigating DVD menus.  When I want to watch a movie, I don't want to wait 2 minutes, or select, or hit buttons for 30 to 60 seconds.  I want the movie to start right away.

Makemkv will solve your DVD menu problem (about like your current solution).

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With that in mind, M4V files are just about perfect.  The only problems are:

1.  Not full quality.  Maybe there's a codec or setting I'm missing which would give me full quality rips.

If you're using handbrake there is no way to get lossless quality, and because it transcodes/remuxes everything it takes a million years and CPU cycles.  By contrast, makemkv just moves over what's already there losslessly, and because it doesn't transcode it takes much less time and many fewer CPU cycles.  It can compress lossless audio tracks to FLAC (optionally) which will provide some space savings (meaingingful amounts, but not game-changing amounts).

Quote
2.  No special features.  On a VERY few DVDs I seek out the special features and rip them as separate videos.  That's quite rare and it's very time consuming.

Makemkv will show you all the titles along with their lengths and some other details.  I've found that it's relatively easy to some specific special features/featurettes by looking at their running time (there might only be one or two half-hour features).  But it's not automated and if you're looking for a 5 minute special feature in a sea of 5-minute features, it's easiest just to pull them all and sort through later.

Quote
3.  Audio tracks and subtitles.  I've gotten pretty good at figuring out which ones to include, but it's still time consuming.

Makemkv allows you to specify using rules which tracks you want to include; so, for example, if you want only the main multitrack English audio and only the various English subtitles, you can set it up so those (and nothing else) are already pre-selected each time.

Quote
4.  Multi-episode DVDs like TV series.  Very time consuming to ID the DVD title that contains each episode, name it, set the audio options, and queue it up.  I've gotten much faster at this, but it's still a pain.

This is tough.  95% of the time Makemkv pulls the titles in the same order they are on the DVD label/packaging.  So I always start with the assumption that that will be the case.  That 5%, though, are a pain.  

Naming them with episode names isn't necessary and will waste a lot of typing, you just need the series name, season number and episode number for MC to generate all necessary info (including the episode name).  So your filename for the first episode will be something like "Series Name S1E1".  You can set up Makemkv to iteratively number (I think), but I mostly just copy, paste, change the single digit that needs to be changed, press the down key on the keyboard, and repeat.  As noted, the audio track selection can be pre-configured. Usually takes me about 60 seconds worth of data entry per disc.

Once you get things setup you can ingest things pretty quickly, which I always found to be a pain with handbrake (even after setting things up).

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I probably want something that doesn't exist.  I'm asking because people here are bound to know more than I do about this subject.

I was recently researching digital downloads of movies instead of ripping DVD or BDs.  They seem to be largely confined to mobile devices and locked up in some way.  I.E., streaming only, or only playable on a certain app on a certain device, etc.  My idea was an easier path to obtaining (legally) the movies I want to watch.  Digital downloads don't seem to be there yet, so I'm back to ripping optical (DVD and BD) discs.

Other folks will certainly have other more automated methods.  Mine is relatively manual, but fast enough for my needs.
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blgentry

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2015, 04:33:05 pm »

Thanks for all the information.  I've just done a few test rips with MakeMKV and it works fairly well.  I still have to do manual lookups for TV shows, but I don't think there's much of a way around that.  By "lookups", I mean figuring out which Titles correspond to which episodes and then typing the episode number into the file name.  It's actually quite a bit easier to do this after the fact, rather than how I was doing it, by previewing the DVD with VLC.

I know I said that space wasn't really a consideration, but I'm going to mention it anyway.  The MKV files seem to be roughly 3x the size of the corresponding rip made with HandBrake on "fast" or "medium".  I'm surprised at the difference in size.  I need to do some quality comparisons and see how much difference there is, and where you need to set Handbrake to get comparable quality.  I know MPEG4 is FAR more efficient than MPEG2, so I guess this is to be expected.

Now a few inline comments below:

Makemkv allows you to specify using rules which tracks you want to include; so, for example, if you want only the main multitrack English audio and only the various English subtitles, you can set it up so those (and nothing else) are already pre-selected each time.

For subtitles and audio tracks this seems mostly automatic.  I don't see a way to create any more specific preferences than selecting a language preference and whether or not the audio is saved as FLAC or AAC.  But there seem to be profiles.  5 minutes of research says that you need to edit a configuration file manually if you want to change this.  Am I on the right track?  It doesn't seem worth doing so far.

Quote
Once you get things setup you can ingest things pretty quickly, which I always found to be a pain with handbrake (even after setting things up).

It seems to be right at the same speed as Handbrake.  Roughly 3 to 4 x speed compared to real time.  So around 35 minutes for a 2 hour movie.  However, the processor is barely used with MakeMKV.  With Handbrake, since it's recompressing everything to MP4, it pegs my CPUs the entire time.  With my Macbook Pro, this means fans running full speed for the entire time.  Which shouldn't be a big deal, but I'm a tad concerned about heat with this machine, as it had a motherboard failure some time ago.  <shrug>

Anyway, thanks again.  This is setting me off in a new direction.  My only "problems" right now are the file size and deinterlacing.  Since MC21 doesn't do deinterlacing *yet*, anything that's TV based that I rip with MakeMKV won't look good in MC.  It's amazing how bad interlaced video looks actually!  Motion is just a mess until it's properly deinterlaced.  Handbrake does a good job, but then it's "burned in" to the video file.

I'm going to be patient and see what happens with deinterlacing and MC21.  ...and I'm going to re-evaluate my storage allocation for movies.  Can I handle 3x the space?  Or is there a post processing option that will take me back down to close to 1x space and loose no perceptible video resolution?  Hmmmm...

Brian.
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mwillems

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Re: DVD content
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2015, 05:23:37 pm »

I know I said that space wasn't really a consideration, but I'm going to mention it anyway.  The MKV files seem to be roughly 3x the size of the corresponding rip made with HandBrake on "fast" or "medium".  I'm surprised at the difference in size.  I need to do some quality comparisons and see how much difference there is, and where you need to set Handbrake to get comparable quality.  I know MPEG4 is FAR more efficient than MPEG2, so I guess this is to be expected.

The issue is that any reencoding is lossy, even if it produces files of the exact same size because commercial video encoding is already lossy (so you get generational loss).  MakeMKV literally just copies what's there, so you'll have 20-30GB blu rays and 4-7GB DVDs.  That's just how much space they take up on the disk.  My experience was that "comparable quality" depends entirely on your resolution and screen size. What looks great on a laptop screen can look terrible on a 55" TV.  You can find handbrake settings that actually produce larger files than the original with (necessarily) worse quality.

That, in short, is why I gave up on handbrake because I wound up needing to redo everything when I got a bigger screen.

Quote
Now a few inline comments below:

For subtitles and audio tracks this seems mostly automatic.  I don't see a way to create any more specific preferences than selecting a language preference and whether or not the audio is saved as FLAC or AAC.  But there seem to be profiles.  5 minutes of research says that you need to edit a configuration file manually if you want to change this.  Am I on the right track?  It doesn't seem worth doing so far.


My recollection was that there were a few more options once you ticked the "advanced option" box.  But you might need to dig into the profiles if you want anything very fancy.

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It seems to be right at the same speed as Handbrake.  Roughly 3 to 4 x speed compared to real time.  So around 35 minutes for a 2 hour movie.  However, the processor is barely used with MakeMKV.  With Handbrake, since it's recompressing everything to MP4, it pegs my CPUs the entire time.  With my Macbook Pro, this means fans running full speed for the entire time.  Which shouldn't be a big deal, but I'm a tad concerned about heat with this machine, as it had a motherboard failure some time ago.  <shrug>

Using handbrake to get comparable quality at a decent space allocation will often be longer than the running time of the original video (depending on your settings and CPU).  My "good" handbrake settings often took about 1.5x running time with all cores on an i7 pegged the whole time.  Makemkv transfers as fast as your drive can read so it's about as fast as possible.

Quote
Anyway, thanks again.  This is setting me off in a new direction.  My only "problems" right now are the file size and deinterlacing.  Since MC21 doesn't do deinterlacing *yet*, anything that's TV based that I rip with MakeMKV won't look good in MC.  It's amazing how bad interlaced video looks actually!  Motion is just a mess until it's properly deinterlaced.  Handbrake does a good job, but then it's "burned in" to the video file.

I'm going to be patient and see what happens with deinterlacing and MC21.  ...and I'm going to re-evaluate my storage allocation for movies.  

Hendrik suggested that basic deinterlacing was coming this cycle so you may be better off waiting a bit

Quote
Can I handle 3x the space?  Or is there a post processing option that will take me back down to close to 1x space and loose no perceptible video resolution?  Hmmmm...

Again it depends on your screen size and tolerance for video loss.  After I was faced with the prospect of having to redo everything once I decided to pay for a few more drives and future-proof myself.
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