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[wardsweb]

When I use JRiver 20 and go to tools>options>audio device> there is a JRiver Media Center 21 [ASIO] option. This does not appear when I use JRiver 21.

I am trying to use a Schiit Loki DSD only DAC. I don't see this DAC available under audio device, so I chose the JRiver Medai Center 21 [ASIO]. When I try and play the song, it shows it buffering, but then JRiver 20 closes and JRiver 21 opens. There are no options in 21 to allow me to play music over USB to the Loki.

What am I doing wrong?

[Matt]

We don't show our own device on the page because it would make a strange circular loop running it.

[wardsweb]

We don't show our own device on the page because it would make a strange circular loop running it.

OK, what do I choose under devices to use the Loki dac in MC21?

[Matt]

OK, what do I choose under devices to use the Loki dac in MC21?

Pick the Loki for ASIO output (if it has an ASIO driver) otherwise pick it for WASAPI ouput.

You do the device selection in Options > Audio.

[wardsweb]

When choosing Schiit Audio DSD [WASAPI] and Bitstreaming DSD, I get a popup that says, "Playback could not be started on the output "WASPI" using the format "DoP 5.6MHZ 2ch."

When choosing ASIO For C-Medai USB device, enabling DSD bitstream in DoP Format and Bitstreaming DSD, I get a popup that says, "the ASIO device does not support the sample rate of 352800 Hz.

In DSP studio, changing from DoP or ASIO 1X to match the Loki dac, still garners the popup errors.

[brgreg]

I use a Schiit Loki without problems.
My settings are:
Schiit Audio DSD Device - WASAPI  (no ASIO driver)
DSD and output format:
    output encoding: DSD in DoP Format (requires DSD capable DAC)

Note that the schiit website product description for the Loki states "DSD64 decoding"

[blgentry]

Note that the schiit website product description for the Loki states "DSD64 decoding"

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  DSD64 is regular "single speed" DSD at 2.8 MHz.  The OP is trying to run 5.6 MHz DSD to the Loki and Loki doesn't support it.

Brian.

[wardsweb]

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  DSD64 is regular "single speed" DSD at 2.8 MHz.  The OP is trying to run 5.6 MHz DSD to the Loki and Loki doesn't support it.

Brian.

How do I change it to 2.8 MHz?

[brgreg]

In Options -> Audio -> DSP & Output format -> Output Encoding
   select the entry "DSD in DoP"

[wardsweb]

In Options -> Audio -> DSP & Output format -> Output Encoding
   select the entry "DSD in DoP"

That is what I am using but still getting the 5.6MKz error. It's like it is stuck and won't change.

Schiit Audio DSD Device [WASAPI]
Bitstreaming - DSD and
DSD in DoP Format (requires DSD capable DAC)

[brgreg]

The Loki is working on my system, which is a Windows 7 platform.  Have you followed the DSD setup instructions on the Schiit website in the Guides tab to set it up?  There instructions for MC should work.

Bill

[blgentry]

DSD is really complicated and sort of confusing.  I'm going to try to explain a little and make some guesses.

First, is Loki your only DAC?  Or do you have a PCM DAC *and* Loki?  Because, as you know, Loki is DSD only, so it can't support PCM files in any way.  Only DSD can be played by Loki.

That is what I am using but still getting the 5.6MKz error. It's like it is stuck and won't change.

What rate are the DSD files you are trying to play?  If you show the [Sample Rate] field it will show you the sampling frequency.  2822400 is "normal" single rate DSD.  If you see double that, you have double rate (2X) DSD files.  It might be that you haven't tried playing any single rate files, or you don't have any.  Just guessing.

Bitstreaming - DSD and
DSD in DoP Format (requires DSD capable DAC)

Here's part of the confusing thing about DSD and JRiver.  There are two ways to use a DSD DAC natively.  That is, two different modes of sending real DSD data to the DAC.  Actually more than two, but let's just talk about these two:

Bitstreaming:  When you set this option to DSD, JRiver takes any DSD file and just sends it along to the DAC without manipulating it.  No DSP will be applied and no format conversions will happen.  No Volume changes, etc.  It just sends it.  This is designed to be used when you have a DAC that does PCM *and* DSD in the same system.  For PCM files, it does it's normal processing.  But when it sees DSD, it just passes it.

Output Format as DSD.  This is in the DSP Studio under Output Format > Output Encoding.  This can be set to DSD, 2x DSD, or 4x DSD.  This setting resamples *everything* it gets into DSD.  If you try to play a PCM file, it resamples it to DSD.  This is designed for situations where you only have a DSD DAC, but you still want to play PCM files.  I guess it could also be used to down sample 2x DSD to 1x DSD, for cases like your Loki, which is only a 1x DSD DAC.

I would recommend only setting one of these options.  If you only have the Loki and no PCM DAC, use output format.  If you have a PCM DAC too, then use bitstreaming.  But ONLY if your DSD files are all single rate DSD.

If none of this works, I have no idea where to go. But maybe I gave you some new info and/or a place to start.

Good luck!

Brian.

[brgreg]

Brian,

Wanted to confirm your recommendation on setting DSD options.
I just changed Bitstreaming from DSD to none.  Output Encoding remains DSD in DoP Format.  Interestingly, Schiit's guide for the Loki DSD setup only configures Bitsreaming for DSD. Their guide actually configures an older version of Media Center, as Bitstreaming choices under Custom included both DSD and DSD over PCM (DoP), where they chose DSD over PCM.  They don't mention Output Encoding. 

Setting Output Encoding to DSD in DoP Format with no Bitstreaming worked fine.
Schiit's Loki faq describes how they handle DSD:  Loki accepts the DSD over PCM (DoP) USB packet spec, sending the DSD without conversion to PCM. It
then unpacks and reassembles the bit-perfect DSD datastream with custom Schiit code implented on a 32-bit microchip controller.

Bill

[brgreg]

Brian,
a follow-up.  All my DSD files are single rate.  Only buy single-rate due to the Loki.  He may very well have double rate files.

Bill

[wardsweb]

Thanks Brian and Bill!  I really do appreciate your help. This helps to get me up to speed and understand what is going on. I will try it with no Bitstreaming.

I did go through the setup from the Schiit site. I have been working with Nick in customer support there for a few days. He has been very patient with me.

I do have a PCM DAC but I took it out of the system and left the Loki in to try and see if I could get it to work with MC21. I have left all setting in MC20 as they are, as it works well with my PCM DAC. My DSD files are 24/128.

[blgentry]

My DSD files are 24/128.

I know that DSD64 is one name for "regular" "single rate" DSD, and DSD128 is the name for "double rate" DSD.  I don't know what 24/128 would mean, as DSD is a 1 bit system.  If you are simply saying that all of your DSD files are DSD128, which is double rate DSD, then it makes sense that you can't bitstream them to Loki.  Loki only understands DSD64 (single rate).  So you would need to use Output Encoding to transcode down to regular DSD, which is labeled "DSD in DoP format" in the pulldown menu.

Hopefully this gets you closer to a solution.

Brian.

[wardsweb]

I know that DSD64 is one name for "regular" "single rate" DSD, and DSD128 is the name for "double rate" DSD.  I don't know what 24/128 would mean, as DSD is a 1 bit system.  If you are simply saying that all of your DSD files are DSD128, which is double rate DSD, then it makes sense that you can't bitstream them to Loki.  Loki only understands DSD64 (single rate).  So you would need to use Output Encoding to transcode down to regular DSD, which is labeled "DSD in DoP format" in the pulldown menu.

Hopefully this gets you closer to a solution.

Brian.

Thanks again Brian. "DSD in DoP format" is what is set up now. I just need to try it without the Bitstreaming, as Bill suggested.

[wardsweb]

EUREKA!  Just had to set Bitstreaming to NONE. With Schiit audio DSD chosen under audio devices and DSD in DoP format set in the DSP studio, it works great.

Thanks Brian!    Thanks Bill!  I really do appreciate your time and effort, not only get me up and running, but to understand what's going on.

[blgentry]

Alright!  Good to hear you got it working.

Brian.

[brgreg]

Great!
yesterday I downloaded a 2xDSD test file which played successfully through the Loki with the above setting.  Errors out when Bitstreaming is set to DSD.

I also sent an email to Nick of Schiit Audio with changes which must be made to the DSD Setup guide.  Since the guide currently has you setting Bitstreaming to DSD but does not mention Output encoding, this muddied the waters.

enjoy!
Bill

[wardsweb]

Great!
yesterday I downloaded a 2xDSD test file which played successfully through the Loki with the above setting.  Errors out when Bitstreaming is set to DSD.

I also sent an email to Nick of Schiit Audio with changes which must be made to the DSD Setup guide.  Since the guide currently has you setting Bitstreaming to DSD but does not mention Output encoding, this muddied the waters.

enjoy!
Bill

Yes Bill, mis-information makes it tough for a newbie to get things set right.

By the way, on the JRiver Wiki, it also says to set Bitstream to DSD when using DSD over PCM. This may work for other DACs but not the Loki.

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD#DSD_over_PCM_.28DoP.29 

[blgentry]

By the way, on the JRiver Wiki, it also says to set Bitstream to DSD when using DSD over PCM. This may work for other DACs but not the Loki.

I think you're making an improper conclusion.  Bitstreaming of SINGLE RATE DSD to your Loki should work fine.  The problem is, all of your DSD files are DOUBLE RATE.  ...and Loki doesn't support Double Rate DSD (DSD128).  So JRiver has to convert DSD128 to DSD64, then send it to the Loki.  Conversion is not bitstreaming.  Bitstreaming doesn't change the data.  Conversion does change it.

In fact, (and I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here), this conversion process, in this case, makes using DSD pretty much useless.  Why?  Because conversion from DSD128 to DSD64 goes through PCM as a middle conversion stage.  So what's the point of outputting DSD to the DAC if it was just turned into PCM along the way?  In my mind, there's no reason to do so.  I would just use a PCM DAC at that point and be done with it.

Single Rate DSD, being bitstreamed to Loki makes sense.  Converting DSD128 to PCM, then back down to DSD64 to be sent to Loki doesn't make sense.  To me.

Again, not trying to negative about this.  I'm just discussing the technical aspects of this process and how they might influence the outcome.

Brian.

[wardsweb]

I just borrowed this Loki, as an experiment. It has done it's job and shown me that I need to buy a better DAC. Then I can avoid all this converting and just play native DSD with the right DAC.

I understand your point and I do want to play my high resolution files as written. Otherwise, like you said, why bother?

Thanks again and happy listening.

[blgentry]

On the other hand, some people say that a very high quality PCM DAC does a better job, playing DSD converted to PCM, than most DSD DACs playing native DSD.  I guess it all depends on what your expectations are and your budget.

For me, the small amount of DSD I've heard on my system, converted to PCM at 192kHz/24bit sounds pretty nice.  My number of DSD titles is so small that I can't really be sure, but I've liked the very small number I have heard.

Brian.