Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[sorepinky]

The subwoofer channel is unstable and stops working on (6 channel) albums known to contain an LFE channel (zero output shown in analyzer) after a few tracks are played (including some that may not include a sub channel).  I have output set to 7.1 with no upmixing or downmixing - just rear channel replication.  I.e. I do not mix anything into the sub channel if there is none on the recording.  A restart of Media Server restores sub function but only temporarily.  I'm running ASIO and Focusrite Control "FC" to an 18i20 Gen 2.  Windows 10 Pro. Various Room Correction and PEQ settings etc.  Only playing FLACs.  No output encoding.  If you'd like me to test specific combinations of settings I can do that.

[sorepinky]

Here's something related.  Very bizarre numbers appearing in the sub channel Analyzer display.  This started just after I applied a few PEQ fillters to the sub channel:



And that's on material having no sub channel - as you can see, it's a 4 channel DVD-A rip.

After removing the PEQ filters from the sub channel those big negative numbers stopped showing, but then when I played an album known to have a sub channel (DSotM) then zero sub output again.  See following image:



Must be some bugs around.

[mattkhan]

Post your exact settings for each step in the dsp studio and a snippet of the test track would probably be handy too

[Hendrik]

I would recommend to start step by step to isolate the problem - ie. disable all DSP processing, and see if the sub stays active when you think it should. Then re-enable one by one the DSP steps and see if one in particular causes it to bug out.
If it already stops working without any DSP, then sharing a sample file where this happens might be useful, if possible.

Without knowing your exact setup and which component might be related, its really hard to even start speculating where the problem might be.

[sorepinky]

With both Parametric Equalizer and Room Correction unchecked, I could not replicate the problem. It  is very stable.

Still with Parametric Equalizer unchecked, but with Room Correction checked, the problem surfaces again.

In Room Correction all the Bass Management options are greyed out.  Apart from that, I simply have the speaker distances and attenuation levels set manually.

The reason that the Bass Management options are greyed out is that under Output Format I have selected "No Upmixing or Downmixing" because I don’t like it.  In grey text under Subwoofer it said "Silent (use Room Correction to direct bass to subwoofer)".

I have no reason to direct bass from other channels to a subwoofer, since the front speakers are full-range.

However:

The option "Silent (use Room Correction to direct bass to subwoofer)" is only relevant when JRSS mixing is selected and is simply left there in grey when you turn JRSS mixing off.

My workaround was to temporarily select JRSS mixing to un-grey its subwoofer options, then select "Send all frequencies to subwoofer (external low pass recommended)", then turn JRSS mixing off again by selecting "No Upmixing or Downmixing".

I do have an external low pass for the subs, but it's shallow.  It would be nice to add some slope to it by overlaying a low order filter in Parametric Equaliser.

But the problem is two-fold:

As soon as you go into Parametric Equaliser and add any filter to the sub channel, the sub dropping to zero problem resurfaces.

There are unwanted interactions between the various sections of the program interface.  User's should be able to add a subwoofer filter under Parametric Equaliser without the sub just falling asleep like that.

The problem is reproducible with any 6 channel album.

Edit.  An hor or so later and I find that the above workaround has failed.  On cerain multichannel albums all surround channels randomly vanish, the sub channel randomly vanishes and its really very, very annoying.

[Hendrik]

This sounds very odd. The Subwoofer settings on the output format page should not affect passthrough of a subwoofer signal, hence why its greyed out when you do no mixing.

So just to confirm the various settings, in the most simple case when the problem happens:

- Output Format
-- Channels: 7.1
-- Mixing: No upmixing or downmixing
-- Subwoofer: Silent (even though its greyed out)

- Room Correction: on
-- No Subwoofer related settings, just distance/level

- No other DSP on?

And then the problem goes away when you switch Subwoofer to "Send all frequencies"?
Does that sound correct so far?

Edit:
Just saw your edit. Sounds even weirder. There is no reason for any of this to happen.

[sorepinky]

I'm going nuts with it.  Will leave it a day or so with some more thorough testing and see what I can find.

Right now I have turned off crossfade on track switching.  Maybe that's upsetting things too.

[sorepinky]

Please excuse those typos in a post I made yesterday.

I've tried to be very systematic today.  Step 1 was to disable Parametric Equaliser and disable Room Correction.  This leaves the only DSP settings as Volume Levelling and Output Format.  The Focusrite 18i20 Gen 2 does not auto switch its sample rate to the input.  You must set and forget it in the FC interface.  I chose to set it to 176.4, so I must ensure that MC only sends 176.4 to it, so Output Format converts everything that is not already at 176.4 to 176.4.  SoX was enabled so I disabled it as it is "experimental".

Output Format is set to 7.1 channels with no upmixing or downmixing.  No output encoding of course.

The PC loads a library from a main PC elsewhere in the house.  I use Play from Memory because it works nicely over my wired network.
 
Everything seemed to be working fine.  I only have, 2,  5 and 6 channel material (the three and 4 channel ones are actually 5 with some blank channels (like the the quadraphonic albums and also 3 front channel only albums from Mercury and RCA Living Stereo).  I therefore never see anything output to RL and RR as expected.  I played many different tracks, chopping and changing between stereo tracks, 5 and 6 channel surround tracks, all fine for an hour or so of playing around.

CPU usage hovers around 10% playing multitrack material and jumps to around 80% during most track transition on manually selecting different tracks while the previous track was still playing.  Occasionally it hits 100%.

So I switched Room Correction back on first.  Played many tracks without reproducing the problem.

Then I switched Parametric Equaliser back on.  For the moment this had PEQ filters for FL and FR as well copying SL to RL, and SR to RR.  Everything worked perfectly.  Could not reproduce the problem.

Next step was to add low pass filter to the sub channel.  And the no sub problem appeared again, but just once and for an hour I could not reproduce it again.

It arose after pressing Play to a 6 channel track part way through playing a 5 channel track.  Subwoofer output went to 0.00dB.  I then pressed Stop, then replayed the same 6 channel track and the sub channel returned.  This was much better than yesterday when in order to get the subwoofer back I had to stop Media Server and restart it.

The one last thing that has not been reverted to yesterday's settings is SoX resampling!

Is SoX resampling properly implemented for multichannel use?

[blgentry]

Next step was to add low pass filter to the sub channel.  And the no sub problem appeared again, but just once and for an hour I could not reproduce it again.

Where did you do this?  Output Format > Subwoofer, or Room Correction > Subwoofer, or Parametric EQ?

Brian.

[sorepinky]

That was under Parametric Equaliser.  Add filter - Remove high frequencies - apply to Subwoofer channel.  Frequency 105Hz, slope = 24dB/octave.

Output Format Subwoofer as well as Room Correction Subwoofer settings are all greyed out due to "No upmixing or downmixing" selection under Output Format.

Edit:

I have isolated the combinations that cause problems!

1.  SoX resampling causes the subwoofer channel to go to zero!  No doubt of it.  As soon as you turn it on, the problem of 0.00dB returns immediiately.

Then with SoX turned off:

2.  In Parametric EQ, an individual filter applied to the sub channel doesn't seem to bother things too much.  I got one sub drop-out yesterday that was corrected by pressing Stop then Play again.  With SoX on, a restart of Media Server was required.

But with SoX either on OR off:

3.  I have a series of PEQ filters applied to the Left and Right main front channels for in-room bass node suppression.  If the sub channel is added to these same filters (i.e. apply them to 3 channels instead of 2), then you get those crazy negative thousands of dB showing in the sub channel of the Analyzer display when a track not containing a sub channel is played, and

4.  The application of any low pass filter in PEQ (even with no other filters shared with other channels) to the Sub channel can cause that channel to go to 0.00dB when a 6 channel track known to contain sub channel content is played.

That'll be $1000.   

Addend:  Summary: As long as I leave SoX off and do not apply any filter to the Sub in Parametric Equaliser, things seem stable - so far anyway.  The only problem is when starting Play of a 6 channel track before say a 5 channel track has finished.  Then you can lose the sub channel.  But the sub channel is restored by pressing Stop and then Play again.  Seems some serious debugging is needed.

[sorepinky]

Overnight I decided to do some more experiments and I have found something.

If you are playing a track and then press Stop, wait a second (say), then select a new track, the problem of the lost Sub channel cannot be reproduced - even with SoX back on.

So long as you completely stop playing a track before starting the next one, you cannot lose the sub channel!

The solution would seem easy: Set Switch Tracks to "Standard Gapped" at say 1 second, but as I have raised previously here on the forum, none of the Standard Gapped settings work.  If you select Standard Gapped at 1 second you do not get that second of silence.  You get an immediate transition.  This has been the case for ages and many software updates.

Anyway I'm not here to complain, just to help get it right.

Personally I like crossfade smooth.  It should just work when switching between tracks with different numbers of channels without throwing the sub out.

[sorepinky]

I have found a workaround.

Seeing as it takes a Stop before playing a 6 channel track or else you lose the sub, I added a ZoneSwitch.  The Zoneswitch does not aim at switching Zones as the feature is intended (although is does if you happen to be in the Stereo Zone and play a surround track), but rather simply exploits its optional Stop playing feature.

Now here's the crazy bit:  The Stop is applied by the ZoneSwitch to the Stereo Zone (I tried applying it to the Surround Zone, but it did not save), but nonetheless it prevents the sub getting thrown out in the Surround Zone!

Still it seems to me that something needs to be debugged.  I am astonished that this has apparently not been reported previously.  Like are people simply oblivious or something?

[Hendrik]

I would guess playing multi-channel music isn't the most common of use-cases, and video is typically stopped after playback.
On top of that, many people probably don't use SoX yet - and its marked experimental for a reason, too!

Anyway we'll try to take a look whats up with SoX.

[sorepinky]

Common or not, MC is touted as supporting multichannel playback, so that's what it ought to be capable of doing stably.

I do not think the problem lies solely in SoX as various unpredictable sub channel loss behaviours happen without it.

Addend:

After another hour or so of testing, my workaround has failed.  Subwoofer again randomly lost, but returned on pressing Stop then Play.  This only happened once though.

I think that some more effort could go into the audio side of MC22.  There seems to be a huge continuous effort being put into the video side of it (which many people don't even use), but if the audio side of it is flaky, people might go elsewhere - well... not that there's anywhere better right now, but who knows what might come along?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I do not know what the problem might be.  I have had no problems with subwoofer output in 22 with SoX, much as I did not in previous releases.  My listening is done mostly in Mch, and my Exasound driver has onscreen level incators for all channels.  I perform bass management in JR.

[sorepinky]

That might be the key.  You use bass management (I assume you mean JRSS??) and I do not.  I have no interest in mixing bass from other channels into the subwoofer (or from any channel to any other channel for that matter).  Just want the sub to kick in if there is a dedicated sub channel on the recording.  Thought that ought to be the simplest thing.  There is no doubt that there are issues and these are shown in the screen shots above.  The 0.00dB output in the sub channel is also evident in the Focusrite Control interface which also has on-screen level indicators in which the sub channel indicates silence when there is known to be signifciant content in the channel on the track.  Just pressing Stop then Play confirms it.

Addend (edited):

I just replicated my surround zone and called the new zone "JRSS mix", applied JRSS and the sub still disappears but very occasionally.  Stop, then Play gets it back.

No matter what the settings, it seems (for the most part anyway) that as long as Play is commenced for a 6 channel track while nothing of less than 6 channels is already playing (eg. no track switching from a 5 channel album to a 6 channel album) the problems do not appear.  It therefore seems that wherever the bug is, it's only invoked by switching tracks like that.

[Zhillsguy]

I just started playing with a usb Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround  adapter for laptop use....

My setup is much simpler. I normally use a 48 db/octave high pass filter for ported subwoofer protection. I played one of those surround "test" files such as the one attached both with and without the HP filter in Parametric EQ enabled. With it enabled I was getting some crazy low subwoofer levels when the other channels played, such as noted in previous posts, but none on the other channels with the same filter applied.

I can't verify loss of the subwoofer channel under use, but whatever is causing those weird subwoofer levels only with the PEQ filter applied could potentially be related to malfunction.

[sorepinky]

Yeah my subwoofer plate amps already have that built in, so I just want MC to LP the upper end of the sub band.

Please try playing a 5 channel track then switching tracks to a 6 channel track (with sub channel) in a different album and see if you get 0.00 sub level in Analyzer.  I bet you do.

I suspect that there needs to be some very ingenious correction to the coding to dump the channel configuration from the presently playing track and to load a new channel configuration for the next track when switching tracks from one album to another.  I'm no programmer, but I reckon it's gonna be a minefield with all those track-switching fade options.  It would probably take someone very clever like those at JRiver.    My guess would be that "crossfade smooth" for example cannot be expected to work when switching between tracks of different channel config. and that only the gapped options could work.  Dunnow.

By the way, I noticed that those crazy negative thousands of dB reported by Analyzer for the sub channel (when there is none) zero themselves after a minute or so.

[kr4]

That might be the key.  You use bass management (I assume you mean JRSS??) and I do not.  I have no interest in mixing bass from other channels into the subwoofer (or from any channel to any other channel for that matter).  Just want the sub to kick in if there is a dedicated sub channel on the recording.  Thought that ought to be the simplest thing. 

I do multichannel by default and exactly as you do on one of my systems.  I have not experienced any problems with the LFE being intermittant, dropping out or failing to launch.  Using v22, SoX and exaSound e28.

[sorepinky]

You're lucky, but your settings might not be exactly the same as mine.  I have not posted all my settings.  Maybe there's some "minor" setting somewhere that I've overlooked.

With your post in mind I figured maybe I have a hardware or device driver problem, so I swapped from ASIO to WASAPI and the behaviour remained exactly the same.  Although WASAPI worked, Focusrite makes no mention of it in their literature - just ASIO, so I reverted back to ASIO after the test.

I have also noticed that if I switch mid track from a 5 channel album to a quad album, that the rear channels are lost.  Just like with the vanishing sub channel before, pressing Stop then Play again returns the missing channels.

Thinking maybe there was something wrong with the Focusrite, I went into its interface and swapped the centre channel routing with the sub channel (transposed inputs 3 and 4) to see if it made any difference.  The centre channel has never done the vanishing act, so I figured it was a logical test.  Well of course it would send the sub channel to the centre speaker and vice versa, but it was only a test.  As far as MC22 is concerned there's no change and sure enough the bad behaviour remained.  Randomly lost channels when track-switching.  Fixed after pressing Stop the Play.

Can someone from JRiver please help by suggesting what on earth is possibly causing this if it is anything other than a bug?

Addend:

I did another experiment.  While playing a 5 channel album, I added a 6 channel album to Playing Now to see what happened on the natural transition to the new album at the end of the first one.  The result: no subwoofer channel until Stop, then Play were pressed, so it's not restricted to switching tracks manually mid-track.

Obviously the software is not dumping the channel config. and loading a new album-specific config. unless the Stop and Play buttons are pressed.  Surely this is a bug.  Note: I have gapless selected.

Addend 2:

Another experiment:  Switching form one 6-channel album to another 6-channel album does NOT see the sub channel lost.  This would support my idea that the problem is some kind of previous channel config. retention unless Stop, then Play are pressed.

[kr4]

I am reconfiguring my system tomorrow.  When it is up again, I will try the manouvers you did and let you know.  It is easy to see what is happening with the exaSound Dashboard display.

[sorepinky]

I just keep DSP Studio's Analyzer as well as the Focusrite Control (like your dashboard) open in the task bar.  They agree with each other, but Analyzer is better since it shows low dB output in numbers rather that the graphic bar of the dashboard that might only flicker occasionally unless there is very significant sub output.

Thanks for trying.

[mwillems]

There's alot of text here and seemingly incompatible explanations; it might help to summarize the exact repro steps for the devs.  I'll take a stab, but even after reading all the above I'm a bit confused about some of the finer points.  Please clarify if I've misstated.

As I understand it, you're seeing channel drop outs when you:

1) Disable JRSS mixing,
2) Have some PEQ filtering enabled (just for the affected channels?  Just for the sub channel? which types of filters?  All?).
3) Transition from media with one channel count to media with a different channel count in the same continuous playlist (only when going from a higher to lower channel count?  Or any change?)

As I said, I'm not really certain what the exact repro steps are, and I haven't been able to reproduce what you're seeing myself (but I'm not a dev).

[sorepinky]

What I will try to do later today is upload screenshots of all my present settings including the filters.  If there have been inconsistencies in what I've posted, these have simply reflected what has occurred on different days in what might be an inconsistently behaving bug or other problem. There are then only a very limited number of steps required to reproduce the problem (have Analyzer open and minimized to the task bar, double click a 5 channel track and let it play a while, maximize Analyzer, see no sub channel - OK that's good, minimize Analyzer, then double click a 6 channel track while the 5 channel track is still playing, maximize Analyzer to see sub at 0.00 dB, click Stop (this will minimize Analyzer), click Play to restart the same 6 channel track, maximize Analyzer to see sub channel working).

OK

Features:



Audio Settings:



Room Correction:



Parametric Equalizer:



Output Format:



And system summary txt file is at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82233154/Reporter.txt

This same configuration sees the displayed subwoofer output level in Analyzer (for tracks with no sub channel) slowly plummet to about-2,900dB before zeroing itself.  I think it's the subwoofer filters in PEQ causing that one, but it seems to happen only after a 6 channel track has been played.

[JimH]

You're using the ASIO driver that presumably comes from the manufacturer of the DAC.  What happens if you use WASAPI?

[sorepinky]

Correct.  As mentioned on the 24th, switching to WASAPI didn't help.  I'll try again today and if that changes anything I'll report back.

BTW I have no third party antivirus - just what is built into Windows 10 Pro.  The PC is dedicated to Media Center, so has very little third party software on it - just Firefox, Veeam Endpoint Backup and MC.  Even stopped the Veeam background service - no difference.

Addend:

Tried WASAPI again (this time closing Media Server and then restarting MC just to be sure) and the behaviour is unchanged.

BTW even with Room Correction and Paramettric Equaliser UN-checked the sub still does its vanishing and reappearing act on the steps described.

[Zhillsguy]

You're using the ASIO driver that presumably comes from the manufacturer of the DAC.  What happens if you use WASAPI?

Jim,

See my post #16 above. I am using Win 8.1 x64 Enterprise with no Creative software or driver installed, only straight Plug 'N Pray with WASAPI. I see the crazy low subwoofer levels in Analyzer anytime the PEQ high pass filter is engaged for the subwoofer channel, but not the other channels when applied to them.

Thanks.

[JimH]

In the second picture in post #23, it says ASIO.

If you're truly using WASAPI, try exclusive mode.

[sorepinky]

Exclusive mode is the default setting when WASAPI is selected.  That's what I tried (more than once).  It makes no difference to the misbehaviour.   I reverted to ASIO because Focusrite Control installed the specific ASIO drivers and they make no reference in their literature to WASAPI.  The problem seems to be within MC.  Zhillsguy confirms one of the problems while using WASAPI too.

[sorepinky]

Sorry... I thought I had solved the problem, but it all went pear-shaped again, so I just deleted the previous content of this post (which could only have caused confusion).

[Zhillsguy]

I just confirmed there are definitely issues when changing between tracks with different channel configurations. A few weeks ago I noticed the center channel didn't always come on without stopping then starting playback, just thought is was an intermittent fluke with the files I was playing. I am using the same hardware setup as stated in prior posts.

Using the surround sound file attached to post #16 above, create a playlist with it and any standard 2 channel music file, set to repeat and check the box for "Move center to front L/R". Play the 2 channel music track and either let it play or manually switch to the 5.1 audio track. The center channel will not play to the front speakers unless the 5.1 track is played from stop. I tried all kinds of settings (gapped, crossfade, with or without JRSS mixing, with or without PEQ, Play a little silence on DoP, etc.) always with the same results.This is easily repeatable.

[Matt]

You're right that it's screwy with the option "Move center to front L/R" checked.

Interesting!

[sorepinky]

I can also report loss of centre channel when switching tracks from any 2 channel track to any 3 channel track.  Centre reappears after pressing Stop then Play.  Settings same as my previous screenshots - i.e. even without "Move center to front L/R".

[Hendrik]

We have a potential fix in the next version, hopefully it can resolve all of the issues with missing channels in one swoop. Please let us know once build 32 or newer is available.

[Zhillsguy]

You guys are awesome, but that's been said before.....

[sorepinky]

 

[sorepinky]

Just installed build 22.0.32 and it's awesome.  So far everything is behaving as it ought to with any settings I like.  Thank you so much. 

THIS is why I choose JRiver!

PS. Sorry for being verbose, but I thought nobody was believing me there for a while.

[Zhillsguy]

Same here.... no issues with missing channels, with both external usb and Realtek on-board audio. Great job guys!

[Hendrik]

Glad to hear the fix worked for all of you!

[sorepinky]

Running 22.0.32 there are no longer any lost channels, but today I noticed when running the audio calibration some big negative numbers still showing in DSP Studio's Analyzer.  This for example when playing Track 3 "Center (Channel 3)" of the live narrow band pink noise test for 7.1:



Unchecking Parametric Equalizer clears those big negative numbers.

FYI, this gives an idea of the filters:



It doesn't matter. Audibly everything seems fine.  This is just FYI.