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[tyler69]

use case: i use the wdm driver when listeining to amazon music through amazon's app. then i open up mc in order to tag/import/export something. upon closing the client, the sound stops for some seconds before it starts again.
is it possible to let the wdm driver run idependently from the client? i belive this topic is related to: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,106312.msg742315.html#msg742315

[JimH]

Try running Media Server. 

[tyler69]

thanks, i have media server running on startup.

[RD James]

Try running Media Server.

Jim, the topic linked to in the original post details this exact issue:
Media Server does not act like a server, it kills playback in all zones when you close the Media Center client window rather than keeping playback active. (like a server would)

[JimH]

Media Server doesn't kill playback. 

[RoderickGI]

Did anyone try doing this?

It is possible to use MC as a client and server on the same machine.  I don't know whether it would affect this.

It may achieve exactly what you want. There were no comments on it in the linked thread.

[RD James]

Media Server doesn't kill playback.

• Enable Media Server.
• Open Media Center on that PC and play music.
• Close Media Center.
• Music stops playing in all zones. Media Server is still "running" in the tray.

Alternatively:

• Start PC with Media Server running.
• Start playback in multiple zones around the house via remotes.
• Open Media Center on PC.
• Close Media Center.
• Playback in all zones stops.

Opening/closing Media Center should not affect playback when Media Server is running.

[JimH]

If MC is playing to zones, and you close it, you still expect playback to continue?

Media Server is a server.  If you start playback from clients, closing Media Center on the server has no effect.

If you're using a remote, use it to control the client to get playback without running Media Center on the server.

[RD James]

If MC is playing to zones, and you close it, you still expect playback to continue?

That is exactly what I expect when I close Media Center and still have Media Server running.
I can play content on that PC with Media Center closed, but as soon as I open Media Center to manage content or watch video on that PC locally and then close it, it kills all playback.

Media Server is a server.  If you start playback from clients, closing Media Center on the server has no effect.
If you're using a remote, use it to control the client to get playback without running Media Center on the server.

The problem is that it only acts like a server in a multi-PC environment.
I want a centralized high-end PC that serves content to all zones. Not a separate PC in every zone.
Opening/closing Media Center should have no effect on Media Server on any of the PCs.

[tyler69]

Did anyone try doing this?

It may achieve exactly what you want. There were no comments on it in the linked thread.

Can you elaborate on this please? How is that different from having mc server in windows startup?

[tyler69]

While we seem to be in the same discussion and arguments that have been laid out in my linked thread, I wonder if there is a way to keep the wdm driver running at least since as far as i remember, jim does not want to change the client / server behaviour with regard to having an independent server from the client (on the same machine).

[RoderickGI]

Can you elaborate on this please? How is that different from having mc server in windows startup?

My consulting rates are...

Oh, okay. I haven't tried this at all. I just thought about Jim's comment and thought it may make a difference.

• On the PC operating as a MC Server, change the Startup option to only include Media Server.
• Also under Startup options, turn off "Always load default library". This will ensure that the MC Client always connects to the library previously loaded when MC is opened.
• On the same PC, make sure that Media Network is turned on, and you have an Access Key for the MC Server.
• Under Playing Now, add a new library, and use the Access Key from above to connect to that library.
• Reboot your PC. Only the MC Media Server should start with Windows, and not the Client.
• Start MC and connect to the new library you just created. This instance of MC will be a Client of the MC Server running on the same PC.
• Check that the MC Client is working. Note that in this configuration MC will be acting as a Client, and so will have the restrictions of a Client, such as not being able to add Cover Art. You will need to switch to the local library in order to do such maintenance tasks. You could get around this I suspect because the Client has direct access to the hard drive on which the library and Cover Art is stored, but I'm not sure.
• To be thorough, close MC and restart the PC, then open MC. It should be connected via the Access Key as a MC Client.

Test all your scenarios from above. Does it work as you require?

• Once you are happy that works, try turning starting both Media Center and Media Server in the Startup options. Check that Media Center still connects as a Client via the Access Key for the new library you defined.
• To do maintenance tasks in future, connect to the local library directly, then when finished, connect as a Client again to preserve the functionality you want.

[RD James]

That doesn't seem to work.
The 'networked client' just acts like a new instance of Media Center and still plays the files locally instead of controlling playback on the server.
So if I use it to start playing music in all zones and then close it, playback still stops because they were playing on the 'networked client' and not the 'media server'.
 
I can use JRemote to start playback on the 'media server' via my phone, but then I cannot manage playback on the server at all, it has to be done via JRemote - because opening up Media Server to manage playback and then closing it when I'm done still kills all playback.

[RoderickGI]

That doesn't seem to work.

Oh well. Worth a try.

Did you use the Client to play "There" rather than using the default local "Player" zone, or any other zone?

[RD James]

Oh well. Worth a try.
Did you use the Client to play "There" rather than using the default local "Player" zone, or any other zone?

There are no "play there" options, only local zones.

[JimH]

When you use Media Server and connect to it from another machine, there are always two choices for playback:

1.  On the server itself (there or player)

2.  Locally on the client (here)

If you don't see both, then something is tangled.

[RD James]

When you use Media Server and connect to it from another machine, there are always two choices for playback:
1.  On the server itself (there or player)
2.  Locally on the client (here)
If you don't see both, then something is tangled.

That doesn't seem to apply when both instances are running on the same PC.

[JimH]

What is the "Main Library as Client"?  Are you loading a DLNA library?  Not advised.

[RD James]

What is the Main Library as Client?  Are you loading a DLNA library?  Not advised.

It's another instance of JRiver connecting to the server via the access key as RoderickGI suggested.

[JimH]

Without re-reading the whole thread, why two instances?   

I use this functionality a lot and it works, but I'm having trouble following what you are doing.  Try simplifying.

[RD James]

Without re-reading the whole thread, why two instances?   

I use this functionality a lot and it works, but I'm having trouble following what you are doing.  Try simplifying.

One which is acting as the "media server", and one to control playback on the server, so that it doesn't kill playback in all zones (i.e. whole-house audio) when I close the media center application on that PC.
Not that it worked anyway, and it would still be a terrible solution to a problem that shouldn't exist.
 
I just don't understand why closing Media Center should have any effect on playback when Media Server is running.

[RoderickGI]

Without re-reading the whole thread, why two instances?   

I use this functionality a lot and it works, but I'm having trouble following what you are doing.  Try simplifying.

Jim, my rather complex suggestion was my best attempt at understanding what you meant but the following, in terms of potentially solving the issue people are having.

It is possible to use MC as a client and server on the same machine.  I don't know whether it would affect this.

I can understand why people are asking for this functionality change. If a server is running, and music playback is started on the server using one Client, it seems a bit strange that starting another MC Client and then closing it stops playback. I would expect that if someone wanted to stop playback, they would open a Client, select the zone that is playing, and then select Stop to stop playback.

I tested a small player a long time ago that allowed just that. You could set it to run as a service, in which case the GUI acted as just a UI and could be opened and closed at will without stopping playback. I had to open the GUI and hit stop to stop playback or kill the service. I can't even remember what that software was now, but it was neat on a low powered PC that used very little resources as a service manually.

But I can also understand JRiver's position that closing an application should stop playback, sort of. Mainly because software needs to be KISS or people won't use it. If the doorbell or phone rings, and you have music playing loud from the server, then you want to be able to stop or pause it quickly, and if you can't work out what software is playing the music, or what zone it is in, then opening a Client and closing it is an easy option to kill the sound. Certainly with web pages randomly playing videos and audio ads on open tabs in a browser, it can be a pain to find what is playing and kill it. Which is why Google Chrome shows on the tab which page is playing.

But I still tend to support what these guys are asking for, even if I don't need it.

Of course, if it is architecturally difficult or impossible, then the question is mute.

[mattkhan]

surely this is just an extra option in, or alongside, "General/Interface/Minimise to System Tray"? i.e. "close to system tray" (or words to that effect).

[blgentry]

All of this effort, argument, experimentation, and hand wringing over what?  Closing a program that you could JUST LEAVE OPEN.  How about just leaving MC running?  Problem solved.

I'm an IT guy.  I understand how servers and server applications work.  It would be neat if MC was a true server app with true client apps.  But it's not and JRiver has said they don't want to re-engineer it.  So why not the ultra simple solution of just leave it running?

Brian.

[RoderickGI]

Okay, nevermind all that stuff below.

Playback continues fine in the scenario I described. I hadn't tested what the other guys were saying regarding using JRemote and a PC Client, as I don't have JRemote. I had some trouble getting WebGizmo working after some IP address changes, but now have, and tested my scenario. Works fine. In fact, I had to change to the HTPC Player Zone in order to stop playback from my Workstation PC, as I would have expected.

The problem only occurs when MC is closed on the Server, and in that case, minimising, or minimising to the system tray, is a satisfactory compromise.

Sorry for sticking my nose in without testing exactly what MC does. 


It's just discussion Brian.

Simple scenario:
1. I wake up, start WebGizmo on my phone, and start playing a playlist on my HTPC as background music. Close WebGizmo.
2. Start work on my Workstation PC in my office.
3. Take a break. Decide to check some movie information in MC. Open a Client on my workstation PC. Finish. Close Client. Music playback stops. Oops.

Is it reasonable that once I have opened a MC Client on my Workstation, I have to leave it open from then on if I want playback to continue? No.
Is it reasonable that after closing the MC Client on the workstation PC, I have to reopen WebGizmo on my phone (or the PC) and restart playback? No.


I don't really care that much, but as I started using, implementing, and training people on Client/Server applications in 1987, I know what people will do and what they expect. WAF is important. I believe that a system should be as complex as it needs to be to ensure that the User experience is simple. The above scenario isn't logical, and therefore it is a problem.

Besides, I don't think this is a Client/Server issue. I think it just needs an option for MC not to send Stop commands when it is closed. Or only send them to the Zone that is currently selected. Users would then need to explicitly hit Stop on any Client to stop playback on a MC Server. They would probably also need to select the playing Zone, but the Stop button could just as easily stop playback in all Zones.

[JimH]

No problem, RoderickGI.  I love it when someone else is wrong once in a while.  Thanks for helping out.

[RD James]

surely this is just an extra option in, or alongside, "General/Interface/Minimise to System Tray"? i.e. "close to system tray" (or words to that effect).

Yep.
In fact, Media Center already has this option. They call it "Media Server".
This already does "close to tray" - with two differences.
 
1. It uses a separate icon from Media Center's minimize to tray. I'm not sure why, but that's fine.
2. It issues a stop command to all zones when you use it.
 
All that needs to change to fix this, is to not issue those "stop" commands when Media Server is running.
 

All of this effort, argument, experimentation, and hand wringing over what?  Closing a program that you could JUST LEAVE OPEN.  How about just leaving MC running?  Problem solved.
I'm an IT guy.  I understand how servers and server applications work.  It would be neat if MC was a true server app with true client apps.  But it's not and JRiver has said they don't want to re-engineer it.  So why not the ultra simple solution of just leave it running?

1. Force of habit closing applications once I'm done with them - intentional or not.
2. Not wanting to keep another window open to get in the way of things when I'm using the PC for other tasks. It's not dedicated solely to running Media Center.
3. Every other "server" type application behaves this way. Closing the GUI/management interface should not interrupt the "server" tasks; i.e. playback.
 
I'm not looking for a complicated solution of running multiple instances of Media Center so that one acts as a server and another is acting as a client to connect to a server on the same PC, or a separate Media Server application that behaves in a meaningfully different way from Media Center.
I only tried that because RoderickGI said that it might work.
 
Remember, Media Server works exactly as I would like it to when it is closed and running in the system tray, as long as you control it via a remote or a separate client PC.
It plays media to all zones just fine.
The issue is when you interact with the GUI on that same PC.
You can open it and make changes without interfering with playback at all, but once you're done and close the window it stops all playback.
 
If Media Center did not issue stop commands when Media Server was running and you hit the close button to close the GUI, this would be fixed.
Maybe adding a "stop playback in all zones" option to the context menu for the tray icon would be useful too.
That's all we're asking for. It doesn't have to be a complex solution.

[tyler69]

i'm 100% d'accord with RD James and i'd like to emphasize that this probably also applies to the use of the wdm driver (which is why i linked the old thread in my first post).

[blgentry]

2. Not wanting to keep another window open to get in the way of things when I'm using the PC for other tasks. It's not dedicated solely to running Media Center.

Surely you know how to minimize windows so they go to the task bar.  Or is an extra icon on the task bar too intrusive also?

Brian.

[RD James]

For one thing, minimized windows still show up with WIN+TAB or ALT+TAB.
When you have more than a handful of windows open, that big Media Center window gets in the way, since I always have it maximized when I'm using it.
I have WIN+TAB assigned to my mouse wheel's tilt action, and typically use middle click to close windows. No minimize option there.
 
Media Center does not prompt you to confirm this action if it is going to stop active playback. (while clearing the playlist does)
I am not always aware that it is currently being used, until someone yells about it from another room.
 
When you choose to put the software into "Media Server" mode, a reasonable expectation is that something like closing the GUI/Management interface would not interrupt playback, since the "server" is still running.
If anything, I would expect Media Center to prompt for confirmation if something is currently playing and you hit close, while I would expect Media Server to silently close to the tray without affecting playback at all, since you already made the decision to put it into server mode.
 
We're only asking for a very small tweak to the current behavior to rectify this, not major changes.

[tyler69]

i also do not want to have a server icon and a client icon in my tray, it has been already mentioned/discussed in my linked thread. also is the first application i know of that works this way. if this is how server/client applications work, please enlighten me.