Topic: Streaming, whatever (Read 4202 times)

AndyU · « **on:** October 24, 2019, 04:45:03 am »

Streaming. Amazon, Qobuz, whatever. But streaming. CD now sells less than vinyl. They are both legacy media. There is no future in serving collections of ripped CDs. So streaming. You don’t need to do anything fancy, just get it working, and allow a user to add a track or album to his/her library just as though it were a cd he/she owned.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #1 on:** October 24, 2019, 05:32:57 am »

Quote from: AndyU on October 24, 2019, 04:45:03 am

There is no future in serving collections of ripped CDs.

I couldn't disagree more.

tij · « **Reply #2 on:** October 24, 2019, 05:49:23 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on October 24, 2019, 05:32:57 am

I couldn't disagree more.

I second Donkey opinion ... whole reason I use MC is to serve myself my collection of ripped CDs, BDs, and DVDs ... streaming my collection to my mobiles is nice

But if I just wanted convenient streaming low quality media ... I would skip MC and just use Netflix and Spotify apps

Albeit ... highest quality media I could get my hands on is my goal ... so MC is for me ... hope JRiver never forgets that serving user media collection was always primary goal of MC

AndrewFG · « **Reply #3 on:** October 24, 2019, 05:55:36 am »

AndyU · « **Reply #4 on:** October 24, 2019, 07:59:53 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on October 24, 2019, 05:32:57 am

I couldn't disagree more.

What is your evidence?

CD sales in the U.S. have declined 94% from a maximum of 943 million units in 2000 to 52 million units in 2018. There is no reason to suppose they will ever increase. If you want JRiver to flourish, and it’s employees to prosper, then surely it must follow where people get their music from. Back in the day, it led the way into home-streamed music. Nothing stopping it doing the same again with music from streaming services. I happen to use Qobuz, it a fantastic service, like having unrestricted access to the worlds biggest record store, but their software is poor. Amazon HD has at least as big a choice, with even worse, close to unusable, software. I jumped from JRiver to Roon so I could get my own music and Qobuz through the same app. Happy to pay lots of money for that. JRiver can make really good software, and I am sure they could make a great job of integrating with at least one of the streaming services. Might take them out of their comfort zone for a bit, but I am sure they are up to the challenge. Otherwise JRiver gonna fade away with each release bringing ever more esoteric finnicky refinements to obscure corners of the UI to please two or three old-time users.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12950/cd-sales-in-the-us/

BryanC · « **Reply #5 on:** October 24, 2019, 08:31:00 am »

Quote from: AndyU on October 24, 2019, 07:59:53 am

What is your evidence?

CD sales in the U.S. have declined 94% from a maximum of 943 million units in 2000 to 52 million units in 2018. There is no reason to suppose they will ever increase. If you want JRiver to flourish, and it’s employees to prosper, then surely it must follow where people get their music from. Back in the day, it led the way into home-streamed music. Nothing stopping it doing the same again with music from streaming services. I happen to use Qobuz, it a fantastic service, like having unrestricted access to the worlds biggest record store, but their software is poor. Amazon HD has at least as big a choice, with even worse, close to unusable, software. I jumped from JRiver to Roon so I could get my own music and Qobuz through the same app. Happy to pay lots of money for that. JRiver can make really good software, and I am sure they could make a great job of integrating with at least one of the streaming services. Might take them out of their comfort zone for a bit, but I am sure they are up to the challenge. Otherwise JRiver gonna fade away with each release bringing ever more esoteric finnicky refinements to obscure corners of the UI to please two or three old-time users.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12950/cd-sales-in-the-us/

CD sales have decreased, but that doesn't mean that people aren't managing their own music files. There's no point in appealing to the "average" consumer that willingly buys music with DRM so that it can only be played through a crappy streaming app, they are already lost. I think JRiver has done a good job of playing the middle-field by introducing high-quality streaming via CloudPlay.

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #6 on:** October 24, 2019, 08:41:47 am »

Disclaimer, I still buy CDs. In fact, the majority of the CDs I buy are from the used market which are not counted in any sort of sales statistics so I'm sure the used CD market is doing quite well. As of right now, new albums are still released on CD so they're still obtainable. People thought vinyl was dead and buried until it started getting popular again, who's to say that won't happen with CDs as well? That's besides the point, there's always going to be a market for media players that play files ripped from physical media.

Look, I don't care about the statistics. I care about having owning the physical media. I care about having the music in my hands and ripping the music myself and adding it to my own library. Eventually I know that some music will only be obtainable via digital downloads, and I'm okay with that as long as they're lossless.

Streaming on the other hand? Not for me... I don't want to be a slave to the DRM used on streaming platforms. I also have no desire in being locked down to specific apps that support said streaming service. And the worst thing is that ALL streaming services have one fatal flaw... they don't have everything you'd ever want for whatever reason(s) be it licensing, artists refusing to be on streaming services, it's simply not available anymore, etc. The only way you could have a "streaming service" with everything you want is to essentially make one yourself, which is exactly what I did. I have JRiver Media Center running 24/7 on a Raspberry Pi, which services (or streams) lossless music from my NAS to any devices in my house. I don't need or want a streaming service... I already have enough lossless music that could rival smaller streaming services right now.

I don't think CDs are going anywhere anytime soon regardless of the decline of sales. Even if CD manufacturing was ceased completely, there's still going to be plenty of CDs available in the used market.

DJLegba · « **Reply #7 on:** October 24, 2019, 09:16:54 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on October 24, 2019, 08:41:47 am

And the worst thing is that ALL streaming services have one fatal flaw... they don't have everything you'd ever want for whatever reason(s) be it licensing, artists refusing to be on streaming services, it's simply not available anymore, etc.

Unfortunately, the reverse is becoming more common. You can buy mp3 downloads, but lossless FLAC copies of some recent albums can only be streamed. Perhaps it's just a strategy the streaming services have negotiated for some new releases, but new albums by Monty Alexander and Nick Cave are streaming only right now, unless for some reason you're willing to buy the mp3s. I suppose the lossless FLAC downloads will become available at some point, but I'm finding it more and more difficult to buy content.

One big reason CD sales have dropped so much is that in many places it's impossible to buy them. The boutique stores are closing, and the online retailers have disappeared from Canada. Used CD shops seem to have a narrow selection. Lots of albums from the 80s, but almost no classical or jazz.

I prefer to buy music, but I've subscribed to Tidal for a while and I'm using it a lot more than I expected.

blgentry · « **Reply #8 on:** October 24, 2019, 01:13:01 pm »

We, the customers and users of JRiver MC, are a niche market. We are collectors, music lovers, (media) librarians, film enthusiasts, and the like. The key words here are collector, collection, and library. This is what MC is good at. This is why we use it.

Streaming is almost certainly the future. Whether or not MC ever supports it well is an open question. But, despite the historical financial reality (that most streaming services don't make a profit), I think it's here to stay. It's just too popular to go away.

We, the collectors will still be here with MC. I don't use any music streaming services at the moment. I use numerous video streaming services. I also have my own video collection being served to my TV by another platform. So, on the video side I do both. I suspect lots of people here listen to their own collections and to streaming services. You don't have to have one thing that does it all. In some cases a single solution might be advantageous. In other cases, not so much.

I don't think MC is really positioned very well to become a one stop shop for streaming services. That's just my opinion.

More importantly, MC's functionality for the collector is quite good, always has been, and hopefully will continue to be. Long live MC.

Brian.

amdismal · « **Reply #9 on:** October 24, 2019, 03:29:13 pm »

I use Qobuz, and haven't bought a CD in over a year. I have a variety of playback systems - three digital active systems that use MC to host the convolver, and a few Squeezeboxes.

One of the digital active systems is mostly headless. I have decided to use a Squeezebox system for playback on that one, and MC just for processing, as the Squeezebox system can play Qobuz (as well as Spotify and Tidal), so I can play both Qobuz and my owned music. My preference would have been just to use MC, but it doesn't have the required functionality. But if Squeezebox can do it, why can't MC?

I'm guessing that customers like me are not a target? Tbh it seems really odd to read the comments above, which basically say that streaming us the future, but JRiver won't be doing it. Seems a rather doomed business model.

upallnight · « **Reply #10 on:** October 24, 2019, 04:01:16 pm »

Video Streaming services.

I'm on MC25 and I don't think I'll be upgrading until streaming services beyond youtube are included.

1) Netflix 4k/HDR/Atmos
2) Amazon 4k/HDR/Atmos
3) Disney+ 4k/HDR/Atmos

When those 3 services with full 4k/HDR/Atmos are tiles on the Theater View interface, I will upgrade.

upallnight · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2019, 04:09:03 pm »

Video Streaming services are a huge feature gap in MC.

I have used MC for many years. I chose it because it brought a unified interface to all of my media; music, movies, pictures and OTA TV. But times have changed. Streaming is now just as important as those other features. I really don't like having to change applications and use a keyboard or switch to a different device all together when I want to watch Netflix or Amazon. Disney+ will be in the lineup soon as well.

I loved the unified UI experience that JRiver brought, please bring it back, add streaming video sources.

Moe · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2019, 04:31:30 pm »

Quote from: upallnight on October 24, 2019, 04:01:16 pm

Video Streaming services.

I'm on MC25 and I don't think I'll be upgrading until streaming services beyond youtube are included.

1) Netflix 4k/HDR/Atmos
2) Amazon 4k/HDR/Atmos
3) Disney+ 4k/HDR/Atmos

When those 3 services with full 4k/HDR/Atmos are tiles on the Theater View interface, I will upgrade.

This is why you won't see that happen https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,122286.msg848884.html#msg848884

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2019, 04:52:13 pm »

I think hell has a better chance at freezing over, than supporting those DRM locked down video streaming services with private APIs.

kaczor47 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2019, 06:06:26 pm »

'proper' Spotify support

(ie, not web-based).

This is what is stopping me from upgrading at the moment.

Josh358 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 24, 2019, 07:00:16 pm »

Concur on streaming! I know that you were concerned about the financial stability of streaming services like Tidal and Qobuz, but Amazon is certainly here to stay. And from a business perspective, I think it's safe to say that we customers are increasingly shifting to streaming.

I'm another one who's using Roon to stream Qobuz. I prefer JRiver and continue to use it to play my own library (IMO, Roon's UI is a disaster) and needless to say I'd prefer not to have to pay for a Roon subscription as well, or switch between programs.

Another thing I like about Roon is the ability to use it with HQPlayer on the output. I know you're interested in adding some reconstruction filters but it's hard to imitate HQPlayer's features in this area. I know, though, that relatively few of us would use that option, so unlike streaming support, I don't see it as of great importance.

Finally, it would be great if linked zones were more stable, and had an option for a common level control. I use them to compare DACs, and they sometimes unlink on their own, and occasionally freeze the program.

Gl3nn · « **Reply #16 on:** October 24, 2019, 07:55:19 pm »

Add streaming functionality if you wish but there are those of us out here who value our music/video collections in a non-cloud based or connected environment.

gtandzi · « **Reply #17 on:** October 24, 2019, 09:55:35 pm »

Presuming that Amazon HD will eventually be released in Australia, I'd like to see JRiver support hi-rez streaming from that source.

I currently have a Hi-Rez Tidal account, and while it's only 3rd in my pecking order (I'm more likely to play Hi-Rez and CD-Rez files from my NAS, or from LP on my analog front end), I do use Tidal to audition new music. Which I eventually buy if I like - principally because I know a lot of musicians and they can use all the income they get - and streaming pays them peanuts - even if the Hi-Rez services tend to pay more.

Given JRiver's problems with Tidal and MQA, that forces me to subscribe to both JRiver and Roon so I can stream Tidal. But I'm more used to JRiver, and would prefer to use it, so if JRiver enabled me to stream Amazon HD, and Amazon HD had a big enough selection in CD or higher Rez (which, given their power in the marketplace I'd expect) I'd likely move back to JRiver + Amazon HD entirely.

DJLegba · « **Reply #18 on:** October 24, 2019, 10:58:22 pm »

Quote from: gtandzi on October 24, 2019, 09:55:35 pm

Given JRiver's problems with Tidal and MQA, that forces me to subscribe to both JRiver and Roon so I can stream Tidal.

I stream Tidal through JRiver via BubbleUPnP. I don't care about MQA. If you're using Tidal to audition new music, you won't miss the tags that Bubble doesn't pull from Tidal. And if you do want to see the tags, you can run Tidal and Bubble at the same time on your Android phone or tablet. No need to pay for Roon.

Absinthe · « **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2019, 11:13:29 pm »

Quote from: AndyU on October 24, 2019, 04:45:03 am

CD now sells less than vinyl. They are both legacy media. There is no future in serving collections of ripped CDs.

I think that's a terribly short sided statement. Take for example vinyl; everyone said that CD's would be the death of vinyl yet here we are 36 some odd years after the CD came on the scene and people are still buying vinyl. Now people are prognosticating the end of CD's because the new thing "better than sliced bread" is streaming. Audiophiles occupy a smaller percentage of Americans who listen to music, but they spend an inordinately larger percentage of money on equipment and yes, vinyl and CD's. Then you've got the collectors that have such a substantial number of Albums, CD's and such that no streaming service could compare; especially if the collection is at all esoteric. I've got the 90 day trial of Amazon running but honestly, I still prefer my own library. There are recordings in my library that you will never hear on a streaming service and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Is streaming neat - yeah,
Is it convenient - yeah,
Is it exposing Americans to a greater collection of music - maybe
Will it replace physical media - doubtful

tij · « **Reply #20 on:** October 25, 2019, 12:15:30 am »

If streaming services could be added to MC it would have been done. It’s not JRiver fault that streaming services do not provide API (basically interface that programmers can use to integrate that service in their programs). Streaming services cherry pick who gets their API (Apple, LG, Samsung, other big names).

Netflix used to work in MC till they decided to pull plug on small developers.

Same situation with Dolby Vision ... it’s not that ppl don’t want to integrate it into their products/specs ... Dolby just chose to keep this under closed doors.

PS. I still buy CD and BluRay ... some new ... mostly used (for lack of new ones)

PSS. Biggest grudge I have against streaming ... stop paying subscription fee and you left with nothing ... whether if I stop buying CD, I still got my old CDs

upallnight · « **Reply #21 on:** October 25, 2019, 09:13:15 am »

Quote from: Moe on October 24, 2019, 04:31:30 pm

This is why you won't see that happen https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,122286.msg848884.html#msg848884

That isn't true. Windows 10 has a Netflix app in the Windows app store. Microsoft doesn't control the hardware, it can be installed on ANY Windows 10 PC.

tij · « **Reply #22 on:** October 25, 2019, 09:52:53 am »

Quote from: upallnight on October 25, 2019, 09:13:15 am

That isn't true. Windows 10 has a Netflix app in the Windows app store. Microsoft doesn't control the hardware, it can be installed on ANY Windows 10 PC.

That app is probably developed by Netflix ... and they thought they can control the runtime environment through intel sgx (so other programs cannot peep at how Netflix accesse and decodes their content) ... UHD ppl thought they can do same with PowerDVD

That Intel security bug is probably the reason ppl can rip Netflix and UHD now ... Dolby is probably glad they did not license DV to PowerDVD and likely never will

Now Netflix and UHD probably regretting ever releasing their app on Windows lol

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Author Topic: Streaming, whatever (Read 4202 times)

Absinthe