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Author Topic: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R  (Read 1016 times)

boss_hogg

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DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« on: April 29, 2020, 07:13:54 am »

Hi to all, I have been using for years MC18 and just upgraded to MC26. I’m writing this to establish a problem with Samsung TVs and improve the solution I have found.

The problem: my laptop manages to output Dolby Digital but no DTS to my amp. Here is the setup:
Source is a Lenovo Yoga 730-15IKB laptop, outputting audio and video via HDMI; sound device is Intel Display Audio (from the onboard Intel UHD 620 gpu). The laptop connects via HDMI to a splitter that outputs HDMI to a Samsung Q60R tv (2019 model) and a TOSLINK cable that connects to a Denon AVR-1705 amp, a 2005 model capable of decoding DTS 96/24, DTS-ES Discrete 6.1, DTS-ES Matrix 6.1, DTS-ES decoder, Dolby Digital, etc. The amp connects to a Klipsch 5.1 speakers system.

The splitter is this one https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HDMI-to-HDMI-Audio-Video-Extractor-Optical-SPDIF-L-R-Adaptive-Separator-V2-0/223545542831?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Video files with codecs eac3, aac or ac3 sound as they should; for any video files with any DTS codec, there is either no sound at all or the output is, I’m guessing, stereo which gets converted to Dolby PL IIx by the amp.

A few years ago, using a desktop PC with Windows 7, MC-18 and TOSLINK direct from the PC to the amp, I had no problem hearing DTS audio streams.

I searched a lot and I have settled to the idea that it’s not Windows 10 to blame, it’s not MC26, it’s the Samsung TV that does not support DTS any more. I cannot bypass the TV because my laptop has no optical output, so I have to use the splitter. In theory, the Samsung should not affect the audio from the splitter to the amp but it seems it does.

So I ended up on the following setup on MC26 that enables DD on the amp, no matter what the source codec: Audio device is Samsung WASAPI, bitstreaming is none and DSP & output format settings are as shown in the attachment.

My question is, is my setup correct? To my understanding, MC26 converts ALL stereo, DD & DTS variants to DD 5.1, right? Am I loosing sound quality from this conversion? Plus, I still have the problem of stereo sources being audible from just the FL & FR speakers, the amp cannot convert them to "virtual surround" Dolby PL IIx.

Thanx in advance,
Alkis

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~OHM~

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2020, 07:19:57 am »

have you tried the output encoding to none and the channels to stereo? or test one type of each at a time to see if anything will work?
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tij

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2020, 09:51:13 am »

As OHM suggested best to put at “none” ... then MC outputs as PCM ... so you don’t loose any quality

DTS and DD are lossy encoding ... so if your original tracks are DTS or DD ... MC decodes then to PCM ... does it’s DSP ... then convert to DD as per your settings introducing more losses to original lossy track
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boss_hogg

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2020, 11:05:18 am »

I set output encoding to None and Channels to "source no of channels". Check the screenshots for settings during playback. the amp is getting 2 channels and thus using Dolby PL IIx

What does the "not using enough bits to output the input directly" in the Output note mean?
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tij

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wer

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 01:44:04 pm »

I searched a lot and I have settled to the idea that it’s not Windows 10 to blame, it’s not MC26, it’s the Samsung TV that does not support DTS any more. I cannot bypass the TV because my laptop has no optical output, so I have to use the splitter. In theory, the Samsung should not affect the audio from the splitter to the amp but it seems it does.

So I ended up on the following setup on MC26 that enables DD on the amp, no matter what the source codec: Audio device is Samsung WASAPI, bitstreaming is none and DSP & output format settings are as shown in the attachment.

My question is, is my setup correct? To my understanding, MC26 converts ALL stereo, DD & DTS variants to DD 5.1, right? Am I loosing sound quality from this conversion? Plus, I still have the problem of stereo sources being audible from just the FL & FR speakers, the amp cannot convert them to "virtual surround" Dolby PL IIx.

Boss Hogg, there are several misconceptions in your analysis.

First, in theory, the Samsung WILL affect the audio, because the Samsung controls the HDMI handshaking.  If the Samsung doesn't support DTS, DTS will not be allowed by the handshaking.  The capabilities of your receiver are irrelevant, because it cannot participate in the handshake because it is on TOSLINK.

Toslink supports a maximum of 2-channel PCM audio; for anything more than that, you must move to a compressed format, like Dolby Digital.  So converting everything to PCM in MC won't work.  That idea is not correct. There is insufficient bandwidth on the Toslink connection to allow 5-channel PCM audio, so MC would have to downmix 5-channel content to 2-channel, and then you lose the surround placement.  That's bad.  That's what you get if you select output encoding as none and channels=2 in MC.  That's not a good solution.

You ARE losing audio quality with the method you arrived at, because converting everything to Dolby Digital is lossy.  I don't know if your ears can hear it, but mathematically, the sound is degraded.

The best thing you could do is replace your receiver with something that has an HDMI input.  Then you run from the PC to the receiver via HDMI (no splitter), and then HDMI the video from the receiver back to the Samsung.  That would solve all your problems.

Short of that, your current solution is still sub-optimal.

The best thing you could do without replacing equipment is set up zones, and use ZoneSwitch to auto select zones based on the material content.

In one zone, for 2-channel audio, you leave the audio unmolested as 2-channel PCM.  This will maintain audio quality, and allow your receiver to apply virtual surround environments.

In the second zone, for multi-channel content, you convert everything to Dolby Digital.  For DTS this will still be lossy and degrade the sound somewhat, but it's better than no sound at all from DTS.  And by not routing PCM through this zone, your regular audio will not be degraded.

You can google "JRiver zoneswitch" for more information on how to do that.  It's not trivial, but neither is it extremely difficult.

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boss_hogg

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2020, 02:16:20 pm »

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74993.0

So "not using enough bits to output the input directly" is irrelevant, thanks
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boss_hogg

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2020, 02:19:51 pm »

Boss Hogg, there are several misconceptions in your analysis.

First, in theory, the Samsung WILL affect the audio, because the Samsung controls the HDMI handshaking.  If the Samsung doesn't support DTS, DTS will not be allowed by the handshaking.  The capabilities of your receiver are irrelevant, because it cannot participate in the handshake because it is on TOSLINK.

Toslink supports a maximum of 2-channel PCM audio; for anything more than that, you must move to a compressed format, like Dolby Digital.  So converting everything to PCM in MC won't work.  That idea is not correct. There is insufficient bandwidth on the Toslink connection to allow 5-channel PCM audio, so MC would have to downmix 5-channel content to 2-channel, and then you lose the surround placement.  That's bad.  That's what you get if you select output encoding as none and channels=2 in MC.  That's not a good solution.

You ARE losing audio quality with the method you arrived at, because converting everything to Dolby Digital is lossy.  I don't know if your ears can hear it, but mathematically, the sound is degraded.

The best thing you could do is replace your receiver with something that has an HDMI input.  Then you run from the PC to the receiver via HDMI (no splitter), and then HDMI the video from the receiver back to the Samsung.  That would solve all your problems.

Short of that, your current solution is still sub-optimal.

The best thing you could do without replacing equipment is set up zones, and use ZoneSwitch to auto select zones based on the material content.

In one zone, for 2-channel audio, you leave the audio unmolested as 2-channel PCM.  This will maintain audio quality, and allow your receiver to apply virtual surround environments.

In the second zone, for multi-channel content, you convert everything to Dolby Digital.  For DTS this will still be lossy and degrade the sound somewhat, but it's better than no sound at all from DTS.  And by not routing PCM through this zone, your regular audio will not be degraded.

You can google "JRiver zoneswitch" for more information on how to do that.  It's not trivial, but neither is it extremely difficult.

Indeed, getting a modern amp with HDMI and support for the latest versions of DD and DTS is the ideal solution. Probably going to do that by the end of the year.

Thank you all for the super prompt and detailed analysis, I understand now how things work much better than before. I'll try applying the 2 zones solution and get back to you :)
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~OHM~

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2020, 03:06:58 pm »

goggle  usb to toslink.....lots of converters. then you can skip the tv altogeter
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wer

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2020, 03:13:43 pm »

What does that get him except an extra audio device to configure?  It won't get 5-channel PCM over Toslink.  He'd just have the complexity of sending video to one device and audio to another.
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~OHM~

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2020, 04:41:11 pm »

What does that get him except an extra audio device to configure?  It won't get 5-channel PCM over Toslink.  He'd just have the complexity of sending video to one device and audio to another.
it was just a thought...
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boss_hogg

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2020, 03:18:37 am »

One more thing: I just noticed that during play the output in Audio Path is still 2 ch. Amp shows DD and I can hear surround sound from all 5 speakers; am I still hearing 2 ch upmixed?

It's the same either I enable JRSS or I choose "no up/down mixing"

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wer

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2020, 03:53:14 am »

I'm not going to spend my time diagnosing anything to do with those earlier screenshots or advice about source number of channels or upmixing/downmixing.  You were on the wrong track with all that.  Don't do JRSS.

I told you how to get proper sound, both for 2 channel audio and multichannel video, so get that setup correctly and you'll hear what you're supposed to hear.  If multiple zones is too complicated for you, you can turn on bitstreaming for DolbyDigital and DTS.  Audio quality will be preserved for all formats, but you will lose volume leveling and DSP processing for movies, so that is not recommended.

If you can't tell if you're hearing 5 discrete channels or not, don't waste time guessing what you're hearing. 

Go here and download the mpeg4 5.1 surround test file and play it in MC.  It has 5 channel audio with a video guide.
https://archive.org/details/5.1SurroundSoundTestFilesVariousFormatsAACAC3MP4DTSWAV


Or you can download this, which is audio only encoded in Dolby Digital AC3
https://archive.org/download/5.1SurroundSoundTestFilesVariousFormatsAACAC3MP4DTSWAV/surroundTest.ac3

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boss_hogg

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2020, 04:18:55 am »

All sounds come from the respective speakers, so it seems to be ok.  Shouldn't the output in Audio Path show 6 ch though?
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boss_hogg

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Re: DD yes but no DTS on MC-26 output to Samsung Q60R
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2020, 04:01:53 pm »

I managed to get 2 zones with zoneswitch working correctly, one for up to 2 channels and one for more than 2 channels. Very simple set up, now all my audio and video files sound the way they should. Thanks for all your help  :D
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