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George Bush

29 (17.3%)

John Kerry

71 (42.3%)

Ralph Nader

4 (2.4%)

I'm not a U.S. citizen but Bush

4 (2.4%)

Not a citizen but Kerry

45 (26.8%)

Not a citizen but Nader

5 (3%)

Other

5 (3%)

Undecided

5 (3%)

Total Members Voted: 163

[Sam]

A note to those Americans who criticize the French, German, Russian (and others) position on Iraq because of oil related motivations: you've got some guts... Halliburton anyone?

Nations will do what is in their interest.  The point about France and Russia is that their interests diverged from that of the U.S.  They would never join in an invasion of Iraq because Iraq was a business partner and ally.  The fact that the U.S. could not get the full support of several major nations was a reflection of that reality.  No President could have convinced Chirac or Putin to invade Iraq.  Kerry knows that but pretends otherwise.

I'm not sure what you're insinuating about Halliburton (and Carlyle, in the other post).  Ever since Michael Moore's movie, people have been dropping names like that as if these are evil organizations and that anyone associated with them has done something wrong.  Please enlighten me; I haven't seen the movie.

[KingSparta]

I Am Not Voting, In The Forum Or Real Life.

I Prefer Not To Wast My Time, Since I Don't Like Bush Or Kerry

Laugh out loud.  All your instigation and then this comes out

It goes with my personality to push people’s buttons

I think it is from Shaken Baby Syndrome (SBS)

Or maybe driving my Yugo

[JimH]

It goes with my personality to push people’s buttons

I think it is from Shaken Baby Syndrome (SBS)

Or maybe driving my Yugo

There's a difference?

Listening to: 'Shake Your Groove Thing' from 'The Disco Years, Vol 1: Turn The Beat Around (1974-1978)' by 'Peaches & Herb' on Media Center 11

[lOth]

The point about France and Russia is that their interests diverged from that of the U.S.  They would never join in an invasion of Iraq because Iraq was a business partner and ally.  The fact that the U.S. could not get the full support of several major nations was a reflection of that reality.

I had a lengthy answer, but I guess we'd be getting really off topic. Then I came across this:

http://www.piratesandemperors.com/

that will spare us the trouble of going back to Afghanistan, 1991, Vietnam, WWII, etc, etc. It's a bit schematic but, hey, what can you say in five minutes? That's almost as short as a closing statement in a presidential debate.

I guess that watching the film people might also learn something about "nations doing what's in their interest". If the U.S. as a whole went to war, and as a whole now suffers for that war, the decision was George Bush's alone (well not alone, Perle and Wolfowitz do the actual thinking). And I hope a good part of the nation now sees in whose interest it was done. Making a difference between a leader and the people, that's what some people seem to fail to do: the U.S. went to war against Saddam, guess who received the bombs? So let's be fair to both the Iraqi and the American people and not assume they have anything to do with their compassionate leaders.

[Sam]

Thanks for the link.  That movie certainly explains a lot.  I'm certainly disappointed that there are enough people who believe its message that it got made.  But it's worth noting that it has nothing to do with my post.  It completely ignores the reasons we went to war and makes a simplistic judgement that the U.S. is an empire, and that all emperors are just thieves but with more power.  

And I wish you'd explain your point about Halliburton and Carlyle.  From what I read about the Moore's film, there was a lot of "guilt-by-juxtaposition" without a lot of clear explanation of why being associated with these firms meant that you did something wrong.  I'd like to understand whether there is any valid reasoning behind your Halliburton and Carlyle insinuations.

[lOth]

But it's worth noting that it has nothing to do with my post

Right. It just mentions Saddam and how he used to be a business partner and ally of the U.S. (any idea of who are the people shaking hands on this picture: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38957000/jpg/_38957921_030314saddam_rumsfeld.jpg  ?). The film also tries to explain why a country like the U.S. might go to war for reasons the rest of the world has a hard time understanding.

About Carlyle, check this link:
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Carlyle_Group

When I read that:

"Hoover's Online describes the Carlyle Group as a military-industrial complex"

(...)

"The company has more than $13 billion in assets under management and has invested in such names as: United Defense Industries, of Crusader artillery and Bradley Fighting Vehicle fame; Dr Pepper/Seven Up Bottling Group; and MedPointe Inc..[4] Carlyle owns about 90% of Voight Aircraft Industries, Inc.."

(...)

"Carlyle is keeping an eye on the transportation and healthcare industries as possible candidates for deal making"

Personally, I would think I would have done something definitely wrong if my name was associated in any way with this group...

[Sam]

Personally, I would think I would have done something definitely wrong if my name was associated in any way with this group...

Well, I'm familiar with Carlyle, and you've answered my question.  You just don't trust their kind.  Makes sense.  After all, they own 7-Up and that company that makes the Entertainment coupon book.  

And I know that the U.S. supported Saddam way back.  Still not relevent to my post.  I don't think you read my post.  My point was that Russia and France would never have agreed to attack Iraq because they did business with Saddam.

[GHammer]

"Hoover's Online describes the Carlyle Group as a military-industrial complex"

(...)

"The company has more than $13 billion in assets under management and has invested in such names as: United Defense Industries, of Crusader artillery and Bradley Fighting Vehicle fame; Dr Pepper/Seven Up Bottling Group; and MedPointe Inc..[4] Carlyle owns about 90% of Voight Aircraft Industries, Inc.."

(...)

"Carlyle is keeping an eye on the transportation and healthcare industries as possible candidates for deal making"

Personally, I would think I would have done something definitely wrong if my name was associated in any way with this group...

Oh, against making money in business are you? To each their own.

As for being a military powerhouse, I guess their connections aren't that good. The huge Crusader artillery project was scrapped.

And my goodness! The evil pukes are looking for more business opportunities!

I would stick with Kerry. He has had a run of luck marrying extremely rich women. No messy work, no business choices to make, etc.

As an aside, what do you suggest countries do when they are unhappy with another country?

[KingSparta]

And I know that the U.S. supported Saddam way back.

And We Still Do, Live Long Saddam

I wish He Was Back In Power, Dang

[JimH]

I would stick with Kerry. He has had a run of luck marrying extremely rich women.

Sour grapes?

[cncb]

Personally, I would think I would have done something definitely wrong if my name was associated in any way with this group...

Well, I'm familiar with Carlyle, and you've answered my question.  You just don't trust their kind.  Makes sense.  After all, they own 7-Up and that company that makes the Entertainment coupon book.  

A large point of the movie was that Bush helped many Saudis and particularly members of the Bin Laden family fly out of the country right after September 11.  George Sr. was still meeting with the Bin Ladens as part of the Carlyle group after September 11.  Most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudis.  Bush demands that we go after countries that harbor terrorists but I guess this doesn't apply to countries that Daddy makes a lot of money from...

[TimB]

Personally, I would think I would have done something definitely wrong if my name was associated in any way with this group...

Well, I'm familiar with Carlyle, and you've answered my question.  You just don't trust their kind.  Makes sense.  After all, they own 7-Up and that company that makes the Entertainment coupon book.  

A large point of the movie was that Bush helped many Saudis and particularly members of the Bin Laden family fly out of the country right after September 11.  George Sr. was still meeting with the Bin Ladens as part of the Carlyle group after September 11.  Most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudis.  Bush demands that we go after countries that harbor terrorists but I guess this doesn't apply to countries that Daddy makes a lot of money from...

I'm an ABB type but I don't believe in conspiracy at this depth, while clearly there are (a) greater threats to the US (N. Korea) and (b) better candidates for freedom (Burma who has an elected leader being held against her wishes) I think that this administration were convinced that Iraq had WMD and are simply and understandably unwilling to admit their mistake in invading a sovereign nation without cause.

-=Tim=-

[Sam]

Personally, I would think I would have done something definitely wrong if my name was associated in any way with this group...

Well, I'm familiar with Carlyle, and you've answered my question.  You just don't trust their kind.  Makes sense.  After all, they own 7-Up and that company that makes the Entertainment coupon book.  

A large point of the movie was that Bush helped many Saudis and particularly members of the Bin Laden family fly out of the country right after September 11.  George Sr. was still meeting with the Bin Ladens as part of the Carlyle group after September 11.  Most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudis.  Bush demands that we go after countries that harbor terrorists but I guess this doesn't apply to countries that Daddy makes a lot of money from...

These are examples of the half-truths and insinuations that Moore is criticized for.
 
The Bin Laden family runs a legitimate business organization.  They're not terrorists or criminals, no more so than the DuPont or Heinz families.  They just have an awful brand name now as a result of one moron.  Many of the people who were flown out were students who were scared for their lives, rightly so.

Here's a good article about the Bin Laden family from the New Yorker (a liberal magazine) I read years ago.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?011112fa_FACT3
Keep in mind that Moore was aware of all this when he made the movie.

As for Saudi Arabia, according to the 9/11 Commission Report (page 57), they took away Osama's passport in 1990 or 1991; he fled the country in 1991; and they revoked his citizenship and froze all his financial assets by 1994.  He's never returned.  Al Qaeda operated primarily out of Afghanistan with the explicit cooperation of the Taliban.

It's important to note that Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen, Indonesia, Turkey, Germany, France, Russia, and many other nations that did not join us in the invasion of Iraq have all actively helped the U.S. in capturing Al Qaeda operatives.  They're on our side.

[KingSparta]

[JimH]

[KingSparta]

LOLROF

 

[hit_ny]

Interesting article in the guardian..that talks about possible scenarios if either president is elected.

Many US voters may want George Bush out, but John Kerry may prove to be a devil they already know

[KingSparta]

Presidential race still tight

October 18: The latest round of polls in the US election race shows the presidential candidates more or less tied, with Democratic hopeful John Kerry trailing Republican president George Bush by two or three percentage points, a gap still within a margin of error.


I think they should have a Test to vote, if you pass it you can vote, if not there is a election 4 years off and they can study for it.

Some People Do Not Know Who Is Running With Bush Or Whats His Name

[TimB]

Presidential race still tight

October 18: The latest round of polls in the US election race shows the presidential candidates more or less tied, with Democratic hopeful John Kerry trailing Republican president George Bush by two or three percentage points, a gap still within a margin of error.


I think they should have a Test to vote, if you pass it you can vote, if not there is a election 4 years off and they can study for it.

Some People Do Not Know Who Is Running With Bush Or Whats His Name

That's the joy of democracy and now we're shipping it abroad!!!   I'm in the "its flawed but we don't have a better solution" camp.  Tho' not exactly a ringing endorsement, eh?

-=Tim=-

[glynor]

[Magicland]

I think the current poll numbers are useless. One poll shows Bush ahead, another shows Kerry, and meanwhile there are large parts of the populace who aren't even polled. College students have been registering to vote in record numbers, and those with only cell phones or "do not call" blocking on their phones, or those out working two jobs who aren't sitting around to answer the phone aren't included in polls anyway. Voter registration drives have been unable to handle the demand, and in Florida, the Republican Party has had to employ 3 shifts to stuff the ballot boxes. Oh, excuse me, unvalidated touchscreen voting machines with no paper backup record  (surprise! no recounts!) which were chosen by Jeb Bush's hand-picked Secretary of State, in a state where the majority of the populace are democrats yet due to blatant jerrymandering, it has republicans in charge of both houses of its legislature.

Back to the polling thing, they're about as accurate as TV weathermen. Might as well just put up a big wheel and spin it to see who's ahead and by how much

[TimB]

[Sam]

I think that this administration were convinced that Iraq had WMD and are simply and understandably unwilling to admit their mistake in invading a sovereign nation without cause.

I think we should have taken military action in Iraq during the Clinton administration.  I'm in complete agreement with John Kerry on that point.

Kerry On Iraq video

[KingSparta]

without cause

Funny

I Guess All The Mass Graves Don't Count.

No Genocide Iraq, Nope None At All



Human rights groups believe about 300,000 people were killed during Saddam's 24-year rule, which ended when U.S.-led forces toppled his regime in 2003. Many of the bodies found at the site near al-Hatra are believed to be the bodies of Kurdish women and children thought slaughtered by the Saddam Hussein regime

Source:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/13/iraq.graves/

[JimH]

This is the one that got me:

http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/viewMedia.php/prmTemplateID/8/prmID/4458

[JimH]

I Guess All The Mass Graves Don't Count.

No Genocide Iraq, Nope None At All

Sam,
KingSparta was in Iraq with the U.S. Army (82nd Airborne) in the first war.  So Tread Softly.

[Sam]

I Guess All The Mass Graves Don't Count.

No Genocide Iraq, Nope None At All

Sam,
KingSparta was in Iraq with the U.S. Army (82nd Airborne) in the first war.  So Tread Softly.

What'd I say?
I agree with KingSparta.
And if you watch the video, you'll see that Kerry thought we should stop Iraq too.  

[JimH]

I'm sorry.  I assumed wrong.  And I didn't watch the video.

[GHammer]

in Florida, the Republican Party has had to employ 3 shifts to stuff the ballot boxes. Oh, excuse me, unvalidated touchscreen voting machines with no paper backup record  (surprise! no recounts!) which were chosen by Jeb Bush's hand-picked Secretary of State, in a state where the majority of the populace are democrats yet due to blatant jerrymandering, it has republicans in charge of both houses of its legislature.

Ever been to Chicago? Let's see a Republican elected there...
Even the dead voted for JFK back in 1960.

I like it when people have to create reasons why their candidate lost. Couldn't be that they just lost, nope. There has to be a deep plot to steal the election.

I think Kerry forces rigged the ALCS so that the Yankees lost.

By the way, if Florida is solidly Democrat, why do they have a Republican Governor? Hard to 'gerrymander' that, eh?

[JimH]

I think Kerry forces rigged the ALCS so that the Yankees lost.

Wrong on that.   I wouldn't advise visiting Boston anytime soon.

[Sam]

I'm sorry.  I assumed wrong.  And I didn't watch the video.

No problem.  I should be less subtle...

Saddam was a threat to the world long before 9/11.  Kerry and Bush agree on that.  Or at least they did, before Kerry transformed himself into the anti-war candidate when he realized that most Democrats were against the war.  He's taken a position that he doesn't believe in.  If you don't remember Kerry's positions on Iraq in 2001, 2002, and 2003, you should watch the Kerry On Iraq video.


And if Clinton had been more proactive in fighting terrorism (as Bush is now), we could have avoided 9/11.  In response to the 1993 WTC attack, he went after a handful of individuals who carried out the attack and did nothing against Bin Laden or Al Qaeda.  And after the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000, he did zero.  Instead he tried to use diplomatic pressure to get the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden.  Nice work there.  According the the 9/11 Commission Report, Bin Laden was surprised and likely enboldened by the U.S. inaction.  One year later, he killed 3000 Americans.

Clinton also did nothing as Saddam obstructed UN inspectors, eventually kicking them out.  As you can see in the video, Kerry thought Clinton wasn't doing enough to stop Saddam.  And he was disappointed that Russia and France weren't doing enough.


Because of Bush's active strategy, Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan can no longer threaten the world.  Because of his diplomacy, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are firmly on our side of the fight against terrorism.

I'm worried that Kerry could be our next President because he is averse to war when it's unpopular.  The next time we need to act to eliminate a threat, he might hesitate, and that's scary considering what's at stake.

Kerry is a smart guy, and he can reach the right conclusions.  He had the right position on Iraq, as you can see from the video:
Kerry On Iraq video
But he changed his position because it was unpopular.  That's dangerous.

[KingSparta]

we could have avoided 9/11

Might Have

For Someone Who Tried To Kill Clinton It Always Amazed Me Clinton Did Not Take Him Out, I Guess he was busy With Star, Monica, and Walking the Dog.

I did like clinton, i think he picked the wrong people around him however.

If Kerry Gets In, I have been wondering who will be in the whitehouse with him (Staff)

[TimB]

without cause

Funny

I Guess All The Mass Graves Don't Count.

No Genocide Iraq, Nope None At All

You need to read my entire post and not just those two words.    IF we're concerned about freedom and genocide there are other countries that need invading.  I mentioned Burma, from the 2004 CIA World Factbook:

 

Despite multiparty elections in 1990 that resulted in the main opposition party - the National League for Democracy (NLD) - winning a landslide victory, the ruling junta refused to hand over power. NLD leader and Nobel Peace Prize recipient AUNG SAN SUU KYI, who was under house arrest from 1989 to 1995 and 2000 to 2002, was arrested in May 2003 and is currently under house arrest. Her supporters are routinely harassed or jailed.

but Sudan also comes to mind, from the World Vision website:

More than a million people in the Darfur region of Sudan have been driven from their homes into the deserts of Sudan and neighboring Chad by armed militia groups. Infants are dying of malnutrition and disease. In addition to this conflict, the people of southern Sudan are suffering the effects of years of civil war and drought. They have nothing — they urgently need food and care to fend off starvation and disease. As a result of the ongoing problems in the south, coupled with the current situation in Darfur today in Sudan, more than 2 million people have died.

 

If this invasion to prevent people being killed can we assume that the Administration will be getting involved in other countries now as well?  Nation-building?

This was a mistake, there were no WMD, the Administration is unwilling (again understandably) to admit they were wrong.  I DO think its impressive that they didn't try to fake them.

-=Tim=-

[Sam]

If this invasion to prevent people being killed can we assume that the Administration will be getting involved in other countries now as well?  Nation-building?

Only if it'll make us more secure.

This was a mistake, there were no WMD, the Administration is unwilling (again understandably) to admit they were wrong.  I DO think its impressive that they didn't try to fake them.

That's because after hearing the relentless, repeated accusations of lying, you've come to distrust Bush.  After seeing so many attacks turn out to be baseless, I've come to believe he's a genuinely honest person.

Regarding your suggestion that it was a "mistake":  We set down a set of rules; we gave Saddam a last chance to come clean, in the form of UN Resolution 1441.  And he broke the rules, according to Hans Blix.  So we enforced the rules.  And now the UN Resolutions mean something.

Here's a comparable example:  Let's say a cop comes across a guy waving a gun.  He asks the guy to put the gun down, but he doesn't.  The cop shoots the guy, but it turns out the gun wasn't loaded.  Did the cop make a mistake?  I don't think so.  He took the action that I'd expect him to take.  The fault belongs to the guy with the gun.  You don't go running around pretending to have a loaded gun, especially when you've been sternly warned a dozen times to get rid of the gun.

One last point...  According to the Duelfer report, there were some weapons smuggled into Syria, but they don't know what it was.  They have no evidence that WMD were among the weapons smuggled, but I haven't ruled out that possibility.  I'm surprised that everyone else has.

[hit_ny]

If this invasion to prevent people being killed can we assume that the Administration will be getting involved in other countries now as well?  Nation-building?

Only if it'll make us more secure.

I'm waiting for them to take on N.Korea. Only country in the world that poses a real threat not only to its neighbours but potentially to the US as well.

N.Korea is a great lesson to all that want be a dictator, screw their own citizens and keep the US at bay. OBL does not even come close.

If i recall in the first presidential debate, Bush wanted to have muli-nation talks with Kim, but Kerry wanted only the US involved in there. I did hear that right.

Kim wanted (in fact demanded) that only the US deal with him.

[KingSparta]

I'm waiting for them to take on N.Korea. Only country in the world that poses a real

I have Lived in Korea For Two Years, On The DMZ

Beleave me North Korea Is No Risk, They are Full Of Hot Air

The Leadership Act Like Kids

The US Has Fiber Optics And Night Vision Cameras That Monitor The Border, Every Night We Have Patrols.

1st Of The 506th Inf Is At The DMZ (They Have A Web Site) Some Of My Pictures Of The DMZ Are On The Site.

They Have A Black Market Between The Two Countries, We Watched It Every Day On The Cameras in and around Panmunjeom.

There is some talk of pulling back the US Troops In 2006 But They Have Said That Every Year Since I Wen't There First In 1988.

Camp Liberty Bell Was Home To Me Listening To The Propaganda On Loud Speakers 24\7. As A Mater Of Fact"Propaganda Village" Is Right Across The Street. It Is A Bery Large Village They Build That No One Lives In.

Kim wanted (in fact demanded) that only the US deal with him.

Again This Is The Game They Have Been Playing Since 1953 So They Are Good At It. Most People Do Not Know But What They Are Told In The Media About N. Korea And Most Often The Facts Are Not Always What Is Real.

That Said The Could And Do Have The Men To Start A War, But They Would Need To Fight A War With Broken Down Equipment, The South Koreans Have Better Equipment.

Most Facts About Korea And What Happens There Almost Every Night (Excapes By N. Koreans) Are Kept Secret. If You Have A Top Secret Clearance And A Need To Know Go To The 1st Of The 506Th S-2 Vault Some Good Reading Late At Night On Staff Duty.

Here is a bit of about Panmunjeom

http://www.lifeinkorea.com/culture/dmz/dmz.cfm?Subject=jsa

[hit_ny]

Nice, so you might have a better idea of what's going on there than the rest of us civvies

Beleave me North Korea Is No Risk, They are Full Of Hot Air

- What about the nukes we hear so often in the news ?
- The missiles that could deliver them, i think Saddam bought a few of those Taepodong-1 missiles and used them to good effect in  the first gulf war. I read they had developed the taepodong 2 which could reach the west coast of the US.

- Are you saying they could be handled without losing Seoul ? (which is the heart of S.Korea and a significant player in the region's economy.

[KingSparta]

What about the nukes we hear so often in the news ?

Noth Korea Has Never Tested Any Nukes

Are you saying they could be handled without losing Seoul ?

They Will Not Lose Seoul

We Also Have Nukes For Korea, And They Are In Theater (Not In The Country) They Were Removed  Some Years Back And Are Off Coast. When I Was There Our Unit Had 155 Nukes (Small Nuke Rounds).

Between The DMZ And Seoul Is A Maze Of Blocks And Everything Is Rigged To Be Blown Up, Freedom Bridge Would Be Nothing More Than Dust. My C Battery 1\4 FA Almost Blew It Up Once On A Mistake Put 6 People In The Hosp, 4 Of Them Were South Koreans (This Was I Think 1989). Ever Hear Of It? I Doubt It.

The Libral Media Along With The Leadership In North Korea Like To Use This Propaganda As A Way To Sway Voters, And Some Will Buy Into It.
 
However Nothing Is 100%

[Simple]

...However Nothing Is 100%

Like in the past? There were 0%.

[Sam]

Are you saying they could be handled without losing Seoul ?

They Will Not Lose Seoul

We Also Have Nukes For Korea, And They Are In Theater (Not In The Country) They Were Removed  Some Years Back And Are Off Coast. When I Was There Our Unit Had 155 Nukes (Small Nuke Rounds).

Between The DMZ And Seoul Is A Maze Of Blocks And Everything Is Rigged To Be Blown Up, Freedom Bridge Would Be Nothing More Than Dust. My C Battery 1\4 FA Almost Blew It Up Once On A Mistake Put 6 People In The Hosp, 4 Of Them Were South Koreans (This Was I Think 1989). Ever Hear Of It? I Doubt It.

The Libral Media Along With The Leadership In North Korea Like To Use This Propaganda As A Way To Sway Voters, And Some Will Buy Into It.
 
However Nothing Is 100%

They might not "lose" Seoul, but it'll be hurting pretty badly.  The North has pretty advanced missile technology - though it doesn't need to be very good to travel just 40 to 80 miles.  And their arsenal is huge.

And even with old equipment and poorly-fed troops, a million-man army is hard to stop.

This is why a military invasion is not an option in Korea.  They'll lose tens of thousands of civilians in hours and hundreds of thousands in days.

This is also why it makes no sense to talk about them as a higher priority than Iraq...  There's not much we can do.  We've been just staring at them across the border for 50 years, hoping they collapse.  We've tried paying them to not make nuclear weapons, but clearly that didn't work very well.  We'll probably eventually end up paying them off again...  but this time we want China and Russia at the table to keep them honest.

After Kerry announced that he's willing to have one-on-one talks, North Korea broke off the 6-party talks to wait to see who'll win the election.  Nice work, Kerry.

[KingSparta]

but it'll be hurting pretty badly

I agree

Now Back To Kerry And Bush

[Absurrrd]

  Christianity in politics seems to be quite a different thing than  Chrisianity in the church.  I really don't think the bible's intended use was the forwarding of a Pat Robertson political agenda.  the Moral Majority doesn't seem to speak for the christian majorty.
                                                                 Chris
P.S I hope no one from Florida is going to be counting the poll results.
 

[KingSparta]

P.S I hope no one from Florida is going to be counting the poll results.

They Are Sending Calculators This Week This Gives Them A Week To Train

[TimB]

 Christianity in politics seems to be quite a different thing than  Chrisianity in the church.  I really don't think the bible's intended use was the forwarding of a Pat Robertson political agenda.  the Moral Majority doesn't seem to speak for the christian majorty.

Agreed.

-=Tim=-