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Author Topic: OT - Universally DRM-Free...  (Read 3611 times)

glynor

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OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« on: August 09, 2007, 10:32:10 pm »

And another one bites the dust... Woohoo!!!

Universal Music Group has announced
that the company is going to test sell DRM-free music to consumers

This deal also is significant because it seems to be also a shot across the bow of the iTunes store as well.  I have mixed feelings about that... I don't like the virtual "monopoly" that Apple has with the store -- and I think selling music sans-DRM is going to be the only way in the short term to end it -- but I also don't like the music companies obviously trying to stick-it to Apple (because they want to raise prices).  So, I guess I trust the RIAA less... Apple is certainly not glowingly benevolent (RDF be damned), but it is certainly less evil than those guys...

Either way, be sure to support legal DRM-Free music (with your wallet)!  Now is really our only chance.  If it fails now, they won't try it again anytime soon!
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 12:36:14 am »

That's why I buy just CDs.  Cause they work everytime!  I never have issues with activating my computer or iPhone!  It just works!  And I get FLAC!
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Higginz

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2007, 01:41:25 am »

I too prefer CD's. It gives you more freedom and choices what you want to do with the music. (formats etc.)
However, there are CD's that have this 'Copy protection' thing added to the disc. That's a real evil thing to do to the buying consumer!. It's almost like you're being punished for buying the CD?.
So I'm trying real hard NOT to buy those ones!  ;)

What scares me a little is the fact that most people within the industry is saying that the CD as a format will be gone within a near future. What will we have then?. I really hope It's not only gonna be these crappy file downloads at 128kb quality. Then I'm gonna give up on buying anything.

We'll see what the future have for us....
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2007, 09:06:29 am »

but all you have to do is disable auto run and the copy protection seems to be worthless.
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hit_ny

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2007, 12:19:26 pm »

What scares me a little is the fact that most people within the industry is saying that the CD as a format will be gone within a near future.
What they are *really* saying is they would love for that to be true. It totally gets rid of the 2nd hand market and forces ppl to buy directly from them, as i dont think its possible (as yet) to resell digital tracks. Not to mention elliminating inventory/manufacturing costs etc.

Where it might work is for artists that are incapable of making an album that you could listen through to the end, one or 2 good tracks, rest being filler. But there are defnitely artists that dont fit into this category and i think fans would demand a CD for them. If for any other reason that if your digital store goes belly up at least you still have something tangible left.

If the unencumbered DRM tracks sell well from the Apple shop they might be more confident to only provide digital files for some acts. This is already the case with many underground dance artists since over a yr. The rips are in good quality 320kbs, some prefer cbr to vbr as it causes less issues. But each label has slightly differing standards. None to my knowledge are offering lossless.
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2007, 12:29:14 pm »

I don't understand how they can make more money getting $1 or $2 from a CD (only 1-2 good songs) when they can get $10 or so from the full CD.  I'm sure they lose lots of sales to illegal downloading, though...but for the honest ones, if I switched to downloading through iTunes I would most likely buy less music and spend less!  But I also like having 13 thousand songs--many of which are disliked album songs--but it's still neat for the total number and the ability to just happen to have a song you recently heard and like--that happens a lot to me.

I'll hear a good song and then I realize that I've always had it.  This is why I like going through and rating everything...and I still find the occasional song I like but rated low previously!
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jgreen

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2007, 01:08:23 pm »

IMO, you could not ask for a better/more pathetic example of the ill-effects of long-term drug use than the RIAA.  Although market forces are beginning to pry open the DRM stranglehold--excuse me, Day Against DRM did that--the RIAA is still convinced that it's all going to go away and one day they'll wake up and be back selling vinyl LP's in corner record shops.  More delusional still, these people who brought the world Menudo, Leif Garrett, Tone Loc, Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, etc etc etc, think they're in the MUSIC business!  So in the digital age, they've outsourced the style-creating business, which is the only thing they ever did well, to entities such as Apple and Starbucks and countless downloading sites.  So what do we need you guys for?   

As for profitability, it's a genuine head-scratcher:  Record companies take 80%-90% of the GROSS at itunes, etc, and have virtually no overhead, other than the royalty fees they pay back to artists.  And yet they complain all day about how they're being abused!  Whereas with a CD, they pay to press it, warehouse it, count it and ship it.  And all this overhead comes out of the roughly 50% they get out of the retail price.  You're making more money with digital, you morons!

Wait--don't forget, music sales as a whole are down year-over-year.  This must be do to illegal downloading, right?  And it has absolutely nothing to do with the lousy artists being pushed, right?  Can anybody even name a recent album they would have bought if they hadn't stolen it?
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2007, 01:54:08 pm »

But I still think they will sell less overall because why buy the entire Justin Timberlake CD (yuck) when you could just buy one "good" song (yuck yuck).

Yes, they make 50% more profit on that 80%($1) sale but $1 profit is less than 50%($12).
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hit_ny

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2007, 01:59:28 pm »

Are you saying the money saved on say justin timba-whatever, won't be used to buy some one else ?

..the US puts out something near 30k albums/yr, not counting re-issues or compilations, throw the .eu in and that number doubles easily. What about elsewhere ?

So there is a lot of stuff out there if you dig under the surface.
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jgreen

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2007, 06:36:44 pm »

10-4 on the digging under the surface, Hitman, but what good does that do me?  I'm the last guy to figure anything out--those new artists will be long dead of old age before I ever catch on to them.  FWIW, 99% of my new music discoveries come from the in-ter-nets and web radio (thank dog they're killing that off).  Much of it electro/trance and all courtesy of jimn and jriver's superb Web media thingy.

Otherwise, I can pretty much take my pick from the reissue of the Eagles' Greatest Hits, Justin Timberlake's latest, or the upcoming Eagles' Justin Timberlake tribute album. 
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2007, 09:21:22 pm »

If everyone just likes the same music, then the record companies can make fewer albums but sell those albums to lots more people.  They have less overhead making albums and there is more sense of community because everyone can say, "Hey, I like that songs too!"  Be done with the oh, that's a great song but I've never heard it before!

My feelings on lesser known artists basically comes down to an appreciation for them but I can't even keep up with the mainstream stuff--and at least that stuff has some level of consistency with quality and popularity.  The indie, unknown artists do produce great music as well but part of liking music is repetition -- I think we're all a little bit like that -- so you really have to go to effort.  You won't hear much of it on the local radio stations.  At 30 thousand albums per year, I'm screwed for collecting them all.

I wish there was a big time buyer club where you could get CDs really cheap.  I pay $6 per CD but the more recent releases end up costing more like $10 on average.  It is annoying when I have to pay so much for a CD.
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AustinBike

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2007, 02:55:06 pm »

There is a volume discount, it is called ebay.  I generally pay $5-7USD for CD's, never spent more than $10USD for a 2-disc set.

I rip it to MP3 and toss the disc into a big box.  The real problem is all of these darn discs that I have to hold on to.

The real scam is that you aren't actually "buying" the music, you are only "licensing" the right to listen to it (check out all of the major labels and you'll find this is true.

However, if I buy a "license" to liten to The Relpacements' "Tim" CD, for instance, that does not give me the right to download a copy from the web - even though I am legally entitled to listen to it.

Also, if I lose the CD, I am out of luck, even though I have a "license" to listen to it.  They should have to send me a replacement cd.  Good luck on that. It's all a scam, good riddence to them when they go under.
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2007, 03:51:27 pm »

That's one thing I'm trying to figure out--exactly.

If I buy on iTunes, I get a digital copy and don't have to store CDs--that would be a space saver.

If I buy CDs and rip them, I am legally required to keep the CD!  What if I destroyed them?!  ALSO: everyone always says that they rip their CDs or DVDs so they have a BACKUP copy.  What good is a backup copy if you are no longer legally licensed to listen to it if your original copy is destroyed--which is the whole point!

I obviously don't deal with CDs now but I still store them.  We have around 1,200 CDs all stacked up in our spare room.  I've been meaning to get a nice cabinet to put them in but it doesn't really matter cause I don't really ever need them.
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hit_ny

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2007, 04:24:56 pm »

If I buy CDs and rip them, I am legally required to keep the CD!  What if I destroyed them?!
Dunno, what happens if they somehow got destroyed ?
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2007, 05:58:14 pm »

That's what I'm asking.  Haven't you ALL heard people say: oh I want to make a backup of my CD or DVD so if kids throw them across the room and destroy them, I have a backup?!  Well wait, if you don't have the original media, aren't you not able to listen/watch (to) it?

Perhaps you need to make a duplicate of all your content and if that is destroyed, make another copy of the original--but just never use the original.  I know people who do that--and they keep the original.  That is okay but I'm more interested in ripping to MC and burning custom playlists.
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GHammer

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2007, 01:28:45 am »

Doesn't say the original media has to be playable, just that you have to have it.
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2007, 10:29:50 am »

I've used that thinking before.
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GHammer

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2007, 04:07:13 pm »

I'm not really expecting the thought police to toss my house at 3 AM looking for original CDs.
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2007, 09:56:37 pm »

Yet another great point that many people probably have realized.
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glynor

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2007, 06:34:55 pm »

That's what I'm asking.  Haven't you ALL heard people say: oh I want to make a backup of my CD or DVD so if kids throw them across the room and destroy them, I have a backup?!  Well wait, if you don't have the original media, aren't you not able to listen/watch (to) it?

Perhaps you need to make a duplicate of all your content and if that is destroyed, make another copy of the original--but just never use the original.  I know people who do that--and they keep the original.  That is okay but I'm more interested in ripping to MC and burning custom playlists.

Interestingly... Despite what you may believe, music CDs are still SOLD not licensed, and they are subject to First Sale doctrine.  While it may be unethical to buy a CD, rip it, and then re-sell it (or lose it or give it away), there is certainly nothing illegal about it.  The record companies have the right, via copyright, to "First Sale" (which means they get to be the first one that sells the item, after which it becomes no different than a book or chair).  They do not have the power to be the "only one to sell the item", just the only one to sell them "first".  There's a big difference.  First Sale doctrine is a very old facet of the law, well documented in statute, which has been tested specifically with both books and music a number of different times.  It is this legal justification that allows libraries and pawn shops to exist.

DVDs are quite a bit murkier, due to the DRM and the "license" included with the DVD player software.  However, these "shrinkwrap EULAs" have not been fully tested in court, and the few times where they have been didn't go so well for the vendors.

Truth be told, the same might be true for software too, despite what the shrinkwrapped EULA says.  In SoftMan Products Co v. Adobe Systems Inc (California, 2001) the court ruled that First Sale doctrine still applied to Adobe software, despite the fact that the EULA stated that their software package was licensed, not sold, and could not be resold.  SoftMan Products, Inc was buying bundled Adobe software (multi-user packs) and reselling individual copies for a profit, which Adobe didn't like and sued.  The court sided with SoftMan Products, saying that despite what the EULA contended, the "circumstances surrounding the transaction" were such that the transfer constituted a sale not a license and that First Sale doctrine still applied.

This same idea would certainly seem to apply equally to not only DVDs, but most software purchases between a vendor and a consumer.  The court is saying essentially "if it looks like a sale, smells like a sale, and feels like a sale, then it is a sale and First Sale doctrine applies".

A new case is just now starting up where Universal Music Group is suing a guy who was reselling on eBay the "not for sale -- promo" CDs Universal gives out free.  UMG sued the guy, and sent take-down notices to eBay, and the guy counter-sued.  The EFF just took on the case.  This could go either way (especially since UMG "gave away" the CDs originally and didn't sell them, which is the basis for their "no resale" claim), and we are likely years from a final resolution, but the question is far from answered at this point.  Apparently, however, there is also caselaw that would seem to apply to items given away in addition to sold (a case where Disney sued an ex-employee trying to resell some original cells that he had been given while working there -- Disney lost).

Everyone seems to be under the false impression that the artificial copyright monopoly is absolute.  It is not, though it has been certainly expanded greatly over the past 25 years or so.  Copyright is more of a balancing act, and just because the "creator" says you can't do something, doesn't always mean you can't.  The courts have to say that, for it to be true.

Some states have enacted laws recently which seem to "crack down" on First Sale (mostly on used CD shops).  None of these laws have been fully tested, and most are expected to fail once they do.
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2007, 07:09:46 pm »

That was very a interesting read!  So there is reason to believe that buying CDs, ripping, and selling them may not be as horrible as once thought!  I mean there's very little chance that the original buyer would end up breaking even, the implications against the record companies are strong since that means the next person can also get the music.  So if everyone had to buy and keep, there would be less available in the used market, so more would buy new.  I personally have no issues buying CDs, ripping, and KEEPING them...but geez, I always assumed it was definitely horrible to resell.  Now I'm rethinking this whole thing!  I mean I've got $5,000 sitting in our storage room!  For the time being, they'll stay there...but you're making me think a bit!

And about 500 DVDs, maybe another $3,000!  That's a lot of potential moola.

I have some cousins who seem to buy just about every DVD in existence...probably 3,000 DVDs easily.
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glynor

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2007, 11:15:07 pm »

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it is ethical.  So, I'd say evaluate that closely.

That said... I think to some degree ethical behavior breeds ethical responses.  What the RIAA and MPAA member companies do to their customers (and employees) is far too often unethical to the 9th degree, and sometimes downright illegal.  So... I'd say that, yes, reselling those CDs would be "mean".  Would it be as mean as intentionally undercutting a local artisan who works hard and always helps out if they can?   ::)
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benn600

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2007, 07:50:24 am »

I don't plan on doing so.  I just like that you've opened my eyes and I can see more clearly now.
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jgreen

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Re: OT - Universally DRM-Free...
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2007, 12:29:45 pm »

Oh brother.
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