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Author Topic: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem  (Read 9932 times)

TontonGuigui

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BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« on: March 27, 2010, 03:27:15 pm »

Hi there,

First of all, let me talk a bit about the context.
I'm using (demo) mc14 to play music, that is to use my computer as a digital source for my hifi rig. Files are located on another pc (somehow a nas).
Everything works fine alas for a small (but annoying) detail.
Whenever I manually change track, or track resolution (for instance, from 16/44.1 to 24/96), my digital interface is flushed (in wasapi exclusive mode), and thus my dac has to resynchronize on incoming data. Unfortunaltely, it takes my dac forever (roughly 5s) to reclock everything, and to produce a sound again.
I have tried every parameter I could find : prebuffering set to 20s, play from memory, using 100Mbits connection instead of 1Gbits, ...

So I ended up with the idea of scripting track changes in the cases metioned above.
I have been trying the following piece of code (vbs) :
Code: [Select]
Set objAutomation = wscript.CreateObject("MediaJukebox Application", "Handle_Event_")
objAutomation.ShowProgram(1)

Fine, MC14 is launched correctly.
What's next ?
I mean, I would like to register to events, but I really don't understand the whole approach in vbs.
In Automation wiki page, provided examples are not working with vbs (let alone for the launching procedure).
What should I do ? What procedures should I write ? What about parameters ?

I am afraid this question has already been asked, but I can't get my hand on it, searching the forum.
Any help would be most welcomed.
Thx,
Guigui
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JimH

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Re: vbs out of process automation and events
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2010, 03:40:59 pm »

You might skip the VBS method and try to solve the basic problem.

It's likely either a bug in the driver for the device or a setting problem.

You could try this page:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DAC_Settings

What is the device?
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TontonGuigui

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Re: vbs out of process automation and events
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2010, 04:37:08 pm »

Hi,

the device is a BelCanto USB Link, connected to an external dac.
There is no driver, as this is natively supported by the os (btw, this is windows 7 ultimate x86).
I have done everything that is mentioned in your link.
I do flush the device when starting, but not on pause.

When asking BelCanto, I get this reply : the link is slaved to whatever it is told too.
Nice, that leave me stuck in my position :(

I do have the same issue with MediaMonkey.
This I have easily overcome with an 'in-process' vbs.
But I'd really like to stick with mc14 and buy it.

Any sample code as how to register to events in vbs ?
I might consider another 'in-process' solution, if any, but I'd rather keep it simple (and I got the feeling this is doable).

Thx,
Guigui
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JimH

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Re: vbs out of process automation and events
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2010, 05:33:05 pm »

Bel Canto is in our neighborhood.  We'll see what we can find out.  Please post any more details on the model.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: vbs out of process automation and events
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2010, 02:35:02 am »

He,

Not sure what you mean by more details.
This is a BelCanto USB Link 24/96, with bnc output.
It uses the same chipset as wavelength/ayre products, but in adaptive mode (through Centrance code).

Anyway, even if you are successful at keeping the unit unflushed at track change with the same resolution, there is nothing that can be done when resolution is changing. My dac then needs to reload part of its internal code, which takes some time. Hence the need to pause playback.

Still don't want to help me with that vbs code ?  :'(
If you really want to handle this case for every mc14/15 customer, the best way would be to add a playback option that delays the starting of playback.
It would have to meet those conditions before being activated :
  • Track is changed manually (this is not next track on playback list)
  • Or track is not of the same resolution than previous one
The option would allow to pick pause time precisely (since this is adaptation to hardware specifics).
The behavior would have to be :
  • Prebuffer as expected
  • Upload in memory as expected
  • Initialize interface with correct parameters (bits depth and sample rate)
  • Wait for specified time (using the new option)
  • Start playback

Of course, continuous (gapless or not) playback should go on working transparently (which is definitely the case today).
Just to mention it, I have successfully written such a script in MediaMonkey using vbs 'in-process' and it works perfectly.

Hope this defines the issue more precisely.
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Mr ChriZ

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Re: vbs out of process automation and events
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 05:41:33 am »

As an interim kind of thing could you use the MC's DSP Studio to set a certain resolution?
I'd guess if you've got this kind of level of kit maybe that would be a little self defeating, but on the other hand better than 5 seconds of silence?

I'm in no way an expert on these things, so if I'm talking rubbish forgive me!

I tried one of my VB.NET event scripts last night and it failed.  If I come up with anything I'll post it here.
I agree with Jim that where possible this should be resolved elsewhere.

TontonGuigui

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Re: vbs out of process automation and events
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 06:28:18 am »

Hi Mr ChriZ,

yep, that would be one of the possibilities, but as you said, that would be ruining all the efforts to get a decent digital source from a computer.
The whole art in this is to remain bit-perfect as long as you can, and mc14 achieves this quite effectively.
This is definitely not a mc14 issue, but rather adaptation to my gear.

Btw, I could not try your embedded scripts plugin, the provided link do no longer point to a valid plugin (through the forum post at least).
In the other player, my strategy was :
  • Register to double-click (that is manual track change)
  • Register to track change
If double click is triggered, or new track has a different resolution from previous one, just pause for 5s, and then resume play.
The event handling takes place early enough never to loose one bit of music.

I can't tell you how frustrated I am right now.
I mean, that's the very last feature I'm expecting, everything else is (almost) perfect.

Now that I think about it, one another thing bothers me : I would really like to be able to right-click on playing list, and synchronize with my current view (that's really frustrating too). But that's nearly nothing against the 5s issue.

I'm starting to have the feeling that there is no way to register to events from out process. Is this so ?
Would I be able to do so from a plug-in ? What kind ? (interface does not seem like the right place)
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JimH

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Re: vbs out of process automation and events
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 08:12:12 am »

We've seen a lot of similar devices.  Some have driver issues.  Some have idiosyncracies.  We can probably find the problem.  Thanks for the details.

Why do you think that it is the Bel Canto device and not the DAC?  Could you swap the DAC with another device just as a test?
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 09:29:07 am »

I did not rename the post that way, my original title was about "out of process automation and events in vbs".

This is definitely not a BelCanto Usb Link issue I am talking about.

When switching manually from one track to another one that shares the same resolution, I think mc14 could maintain (ie not flush) the device, and everything would be ok.
The best example I can find is that it works perfectly when switching to the next track automatically.

Alas, changing resolution definitely breaks the configuration and a change at both usb link and dac levels is required.
With a faster dac, things are nonetheless quite the same, since a small cut can be listened to.

That's why I'm trying to find a detour so as to fit my needs.
My english has to be awfully poor so that this thread ends up in such a situation.
So, in another attempt, I am trying to make my question as clear as possible :
does anyone know how to subscribe to mc14 events in an out of process vbs script ?

Thanks.
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Matt

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 09:41:19 am »

As you have said, playback does not flush or reset the hardware when switching tracks that are the same format.  It is seamless and continuous.

Media Center does have to flush / reset the hardware to play a different format (like a different sample rate).  Since this is a hardware requirement, I'm not sure what we could do better.  What are looking for, just a longer pause in this case?

As Mr. Chriz mentioned, using DSP studio to mix all the formats to the same format is another possible option.  This will remove any hardware resets, but might mean the program is resampling in some cases.
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JimH

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 09:54:35 am »

Your English is fine.  I don't want to encourage you to pursue any work-around until we know where the problem is.

I changed the thread title because I thought it best described the problem you're having.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2010, 09:56:12 am »

As you have said, playback does not flush or reset the hardware when switching tracks that are the same format.  It is seamless and continuous.

Yes it does, when I choose (randomly) another track whether from the same album or not.
Only continuous playing is not flushing the hardware.

Media Center does have to flush / reset the hardware to play a different format (like a different sample rate).  Since this is a hardware requirement, I'm not sure what we could do better.  What are looking for, just a longer pause in this case?

That I understand perfectly, and I'm not blaming mc14 in this case.
Again, in this situation my dac is taking about 5s to relock on the new signal, and I am trying to avoid the track to play during those 5s.
Scripting this is perfectly fine with me, but it does not seem with all that kindly answered this thread.
I am just asking an advice on how to do so (from out of process vbs, in case you did not notice).

As Mr. Chriz mentioned, using DSP studio to mix all the formats to the same format is another possible option.  This will remove any hardware resets, but might mean the program is resampling in some cases.

On this part I already answered : I do not wish to go this road.
I've got 17k€ worth of an upsampler plus a dac to do so, I'd rather use them, instead of relying on the computer.
Should I have to resample everything to 24/96, I would not be using mc14 since windows does that natively in non-wasapi exclusive mode.

So I end up again with my first question (really, I don't want to seem rude, but it's like I'm using forbidden words) :
How do I register to events in vbs out of process script ?

Pleeeeaaaaaassssseeee, don't let me down.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2010, 10:06:09 am »

Your English is fine.  I don't want to encourage you to pursue any work-around until we know where the problem is.

I changed the thread title because I thought it best described the problem you're having.

JimH,

thanks, I understand why you're trying to do so.
In another situation I would describe the overall team behavior as top professional (I have hardly seen elsewhere such a will to understand an issue, and deal with it).

All I can say here is that neither mc14 nor the BelCanto is to blame.
Unless you want to add a 'Pause play at track startup (if not continuous or resolution has changed)' feature, this is really up to me to try and adapt.

I understand that vbs is not ideal, but if that allows me to go on with mc14, I've got no problem with using it.
If you feel that I should script another way, I am all listening.
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Matt

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2010, 01:08:14 pm »

Unless you want to add a 'Pause play at track startup (if not continuous or resolution has changed)' feature, this is really up to me to try and adapt.

When WASAPI opens, I don't think we can know the sample rate of card.  We probably don't know if there's been a change of format.  (ASIO would allow us to see a change)

But adding a WASAPI option "Wait five seconds after opening device to allow external hardware to synchronize" would be easy.  Do you know if we must play silence for 5 seconds, or simply open the card and wait?  Would it be a problem to have it wait five seconds every time you start playback (but not switch tracks) even if you're playing the same format you just finished playing?



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Alex B

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2010, 01:49:49 pm »

With a faster dac, things are nonetheless quite the same, since a small cut can be listened to.

As you said, a faster sensing, but otherwise a similar DAC would not help. Usually the tracks start with practicaly no silence before the audio content. If the album tracks have silence between them it is usually located at the end of each track.


Regarding using a script, what event you would like to access? I don't think MC has any kind of built-in initialiazation codes that it could send to a device before a sample rate change occurs. MC just outputs audio data in the new format. The OS/device driver/devices are responsible of correctly adapting to the content or if the device is not auto-sensing you would need to do that by hand. A device manufaturer can provide an auto-sensing driver, but as you said, the BelCanto device doesn't have or need a driver and you are by-passing all OS "intelligence" by using WASAPI Exclusive.

In your situation I would just add an audibly silent 5-second track in the playback queue whenever a sample rate change is needed. When a "trigger" track is in the new sample rate the following track should play correctly.

To make testing a "trigger track system" easier I created two example tracks with an audio editor - a 24/96 and a 16/44.1 track. Both tracks are exactly 5.5 seconds long. The files are in the attached zip package. (Log in to the forum if you can't see an attachment.)

I am speaking only about the sample rate change because for all purposes you can set the bit depth in DSP Studio to 24-bit and keep it there. It only adds 8 lower zero bits to a 16-bit signal when no other processing is set to happen. It does not apply dithering or anyhow alter the upper 16-bits. If some processing is actually set it is better to output 24-bit anyway (for instance, sometimes even an audio purist may prefer to adjust EQ a bit when a certain recording is too bright/bass-heavy/etc.)


There are devices that need to be set manually each time the sample rate changes, so in that sense you would still be better off. We may easily forgot that there was a time when it was necsssary to actually go to the player device and change the record or tape by hand. :)
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2010, 02:04:16 pm »

Quote
When WASAPI opens, I don't think we can know the sample rate of card.  We probably don't know if there's been a change of format.  (ASIO would allow us to see a change)

Wouldn't it be easier to extract this information from the track, independently from the output plugin ?

Quote
But adding a WASAPI option "Wait five seconds after opening device to allow external hardware to synchronize" would be easy.  Do you know if we must play silence for 5 seconds, or simply open the card and wait?

The time of pause should be chosen by the user, since this is about adaptation to external components.
From my experience with the BelCanto using ASIO, with the script I was refering to, a pause is sufficient.
I think as soon as the BelCanto is configured to ouput, say 24/48, it pushes the pcm equivalent on its bnc output, which allows for the dac to start locking.
Of course, playing X seconds of silence is the best way to make sure all digital interfaces would behave accordingly.

Quote
Would it be a problem to have it wait five seconds every time you start playback (but not switch tracks) even if you're playing the same format you just finished playing?

Not sure what you mean here.  ?
This has nothing to do with the format of the track, but rather with the fact that the BelCanto is flushed/reset.
The 2 events I have identified as being annoying are :
  • Picking a track manually, whatever the resolution/format/...
  • Either manually, or automatically, pick a track with a different resolution (we already agreed on that)
Of source, continuous playing works perfectly right now (although, iirc, that implies prebuffering a bit, but that's very fine), and should remain so.

Anyway, if you need to beta-test this, I would be more than happy to let you know how it goes.
Thanks a lot !
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2010, 02:27:04 pm »

As you said, a faster sensing, but otherwise a similar DAC would not help. Usually the tracks start with practicaly no silence before the audio content. If the album tracks have silence between them it is usually located at the end of each track.

Definitely.

Quote
Regarding using a script, what event you would like to access? I don't think MC has any kind of built-in initialiazation codes that it could send to a device before a sample rate change occurs. MC just outputs audio data in the new format. The OS/device driver/devices are responsible of correctly adapting to the content or if the device is not auto-sensing you would need to do that by hand. A device manufaturer can provide an auto-sensing driver, but as you said, the BelCanto device doesn't have or need a driver and you are by-passing all OS "intelligence" by using WASAPI Exclusive.

Well, what I did with the other player is :
  • Look for manual track changes (mainly through double-click listener)
  • Look for track start
In the script, I am remembering the previous sample rate (as you say afterwards, the output is fixed to 24bits, that is perfectly harmless (and monitored by my dac)).
For manual track change, I am tagging my pause flag to true.
For track change, I am comparing previous sample rate, if any (or if it makes sense) to current one, leading to the flag being true or false.
Then, if the flag is true, the track is paused, a timer of 5s is set, which handler resumes playback, and sets the flag back to false.

Quote
In your situation I would just add an audibly silent 5-second track in the playback queue whenever a sample rate change is needed. When a "trigger" track is in the new sample rate the following track should play correctly.
That was my first feeling too, but I finally got out of here, as I discovered that pausing was enough.
I can test your attachement in a dedicated playlist, to see what happens.

In my case, I would rather, considering MC automation APIs :
  • Register to track changes, saving sample rate and next track on playing list
  • By default, if no comparison is available, then a pause is required
  • On next track change, I would compare track with persisted one (to avoid breaking continuous playback) and sample rate. If a difference exists, then a pause is required
Then there is no need to try and tweak the playing list, but rather enable the system to stabilize before playing.
Of course that won't work if the new track event is launched asynchronously or on a late basis.

Quote
To make testing a "trigger track system" easier I created two example tracks with an audio editor - a 24/96 and a 16/44.1 track. Both tracks are exactly 5.5 seconds long. The files are in the attached zip package. (Log in to the forum if you can't see an attachment.)

I am speaking only about the sample rate change because for all purposes you can set the bit depth in DSP Studio to 24-bit and keep it there. It only adds 8 lower zero bits to a 16-bit signal when no other processing is set to happen. It does not apply dithering or anyhow alter the upper 16-bits. If some processing is actually set it is better to output 24-bit anyway (for instance, sometimes even an audio purist may prefer to adjust EQ a bit when a certain recording is too bright/bass-heavy/etc.)

Downloaded, thx. And yes, I already do that in DSP studio (this is required by the BelCanto in fact).

Quote
There are devices that need to be set manually each time the sample rate changes, so in that sense you would still be better off. We may easily forgot that there was a time when it was necsssary to actually go to the player device and change the record or tape by hand. :)

Yes ! That's most of the point, although in the end, the quality of the playback through MC is impressing too, and a big plus (not related to a car brand).  ;D
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2010, 02:58:27 pm »

I have just tested the silence tracks you published : inserted the first one before a 16/44 file, and inserted the second one before a 24/96 in the same playlist.
Playing the playlist works fine : both real tracks are playing entirely.
5.5s are juste enough, that was close ;)

That proves that playing X (customizable) seconds of silence would do it (if the option was available).
Now that would not be my scripting approach (see before).

I can't stress enough how important it is to be able to choose the pause duration.
5.5s are enough for 24/96, but I doubt it would for 24/192.
Right now I can't test it, the usb link being limited to 24/96, but pushing the upsampler to dac to 24/192 takes longer.
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Alex B

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2010, 03:37:24 pm »

You said that it needs about 5 seconds, so I thought that 5.5 would do. The files are not exactly silent. They contain a very small amount of inaudible high pitched noise. Probably silence would have been fine as well, but I had no way to test the files on your HW.

So in order to make MC do what you need it probably should at least:

1. Detect when the sample rate changes.
2. Start sending the audio stream at the new sample rate, but delay sending the actual content until a predefined amount of time has passed.

Quote
Picking a track manually, whatever the resolution/format/...

Does this mean that the problem occurs when playback is simply stopped and restarted or when the first track is played after starting MC, even when there is no sample rate change?

If yes, then MC would probably need to do #2 whenever playback is started.


BTW, not all HW behave like yours. I use a PCI sound card and it doesn't have this problem. It switches between different sample rates automatically without any noticeable delay.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2010, 03:49:27 pm »

He,

Quote
1. Detect when the sample rate changes.
2. Start sending the audio stream at the new sample rate, but delay sending the actual content until a predefined amount of time has passed.

Yes, precisely.

Quote
Does this mean that the problem occurs when playback is simply stopped and restarted or when the first track is played after starting MC, even when there is no sample rate change?

If yes, then MC would probably need to do #2 whenever playback is started.

Yes, maybe that's it, in terms of playback architecture.

It appears each time a track is double-clicked manually.
The BelCanto usb link is flushed, for a reason unknown to me.
That includes stopping and restarting.
And yes, even when the sample rate is not changing.

Quote
BTW, not all HW behave like yours. I use a PCI sound card and it doesn't have this problem. It switches between different sample rates automatically without any noticeable delay.

Yes I'm having a tough combo here  :o
On one hand, the usb link is flushed even if the sample rate does not change (excluding continuous playback that works fine).
On the other hand, my dac takes forever to relock a signal, mainly because of the double-stage upsampler/dac.
But the overall sound is so good, there is no way I'll change it, mc14 included :)
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Mr ChriZ

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2010, 05:22:41 pm »

Sounds like the guys will soon have you sorted above.

Just in case you were interested in the events side of thing for something else I've rejigged my script here.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=33020.msg273528#msg273528

If you run the batch file in the zip file...
Gives output like so

Script Compiled Successfully!
Running Script...
Waiting on Events
MJEvent type: MCCommand MCC: NOTIFY_PLAYERSTATE_CHANGE 0
MJEvent type: MCCommand MCC: NOTIFY_VOLUME_CHANGED -1
MJEvent type: MCCommand MCC: NOTIFY_TRACK_CHANGE 0
MJEvent type: MCCommand MCC: NOTIFY_PLAYERSTATE_CHANGE 0
Stopped Waiting on Events
Script Completed Successfully

Press any key to continue . . .


Of course what events are shown depend somewhat on events occur  :)

TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2010, 02:12:17 am »

Hi Mr ChriZ,

yep, incredible, I would not have thought of a software enhancement, but since it seems ok, I'm glad to take it.

Regarding your scripting engine, I have not tested it yet, since the following page states it should be 440k, and that anytime I download it, it weighs only less than 1k.
http://accessories.jrmediacenter.com/mediacenter/accessories.php
Is there a problem with the download link, or with the description ?

If not, I would be glad to test it, so that I can play with it, and wait for a version that would meet my needs.
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Mr ChriZ

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2010, 02:52:36 am »

On this post here
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=33020.msg273528#msg273528

There's an attached zip file.  For the time being everything you need is in there!

TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2010, 03:04:44 am »

Hum ok.

Downloaded  8)
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p47r1ck

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2010, 06:32:35 pm »

Hi there,

Just want to jump into this discussion. I have encountered this similar problem on MC14 but it is partially solved by setting:

Track Change/Switch-tracks: Cross-fade (smooth) 1s

under Tools/Options/Audio.

After that, it no longer causes the DAC to un-sync when changing tracks of the same sample rate (e.g. manual changes across all 16/44.1 tracks are now fine).

Not sure what the Cross-fade option does to WASAPI (the 1s does not seem to be that important, you can try lower) to cause this behaviour but thought I would report it.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2010, 02:08:36 am »

Hi p47r1ck,

cool, I could test that.

Nevertheless, from the distance, I feel that you still miss some of the music using this option.
And as you said, that would not solve the change of resolution.

But that is worth trying it, thanks a lot.
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Matt

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2010, 10:37:09 am »

Coming in Media Center 15.0.14 (and later) which should be available in about a week:

NEW: Added new option 'Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization' to Options > Audio that plays a little silence when first opening an output (or changing formats) to allow audio hardware to synchronize. (needed for devices like the Bel Canto USB Link that otherwise crop a little of a new signal)

Thanks to John Stronczer at Bel Canto for loaning us a USB Link device.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2010, 03:02:51 pm »

Excellent !
If the silence time is configurable, the usual 0.1s to 20s (for instance), this is definitely a must (for me).

Just to mention it, I have tried the cross-fade (smooth) option to 0.1s.
Incredibly enough, this works for tracks of the same sample rate (thanks a lot p47r1ck).

Unfortunately, sometimes, it starts playing, then says 'buffering' then plays again.
In this case, the stack BelCanto/dCS seems to no longer lock together (PLL stage I guess), and it plays everything with strong echoe.
Too bad, otherwise it gives instant change of tracks (with the same sample rate) without a glintch.

The leading silence really seems like the best option for me !
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JimH

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2010, 05:53:40 pm »

Coming in Media Center 15.0.14 (and later) which should be available in about a week:

NEW: Added new option 'Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization' to Options > Audio that plays a little silence when first opening an output (or changing formats) to allow audio hardware to synchronize. (needed for devices like the Bel Canto USB Link that otherwise crop a little of a new signal)
This build is now available.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2010, 12:01:23 pm »

He,

I must be stupid, but I have installed version 15.0.14 and can not find the option :(
I still have version 14 installed too.

What am I missing here ?
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JimH

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2010, 12:06:16 pm »

It's under Options / Audio.  It's the fifth line down from the top.

Quote
1. NEW: Added new option 'Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization' to Options > Audio that plays a little silence when first opening an output (or changing formats) to allow audio hardware to synchronize. (needed for devices like the Bel Canto USB Link that otherwise crop a little of a new signal)
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Mr ChriZ

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2010, 12:07:50 pm »

I see it even under DirectSound

TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2010, 12:22:47 pm »

Glups,

there is really something weird at play.
5th option is "Play files from memory instead of disk..."

No trace of this option.
Searching for "silence" I only find "Do not play silence (leading and trailing)"

Do I need to remove mc14 entirely ?
I could try a fresh new install on another computer, just for testing...
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JimH

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2010, 12:27:02 pm »

You don't need to uninstall MC14, but check what you are using under Help/About.

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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2010, 12:34:41 pm »

I now this sounds like stupidity.
I am on 15.0.14 (Help/About MediaCenter...) and I really don't have this option :( :( :(
I'll try 15.0.16.
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Alex B

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2010, 12:39:28 pm »

The announce was a bit premature. The feature appeared for the first time in the build 15.0.15 (not publicly released). You should be able to try it after installing 15.0.16.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2010, 12:43:00 pm »

Yep,

15.0.16 just brought the holly feature !
Still, how do I choose silence time ?
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JimH

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2010, 12:48:19 pm »

You don't choose.  It is automatic. 
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2010, 12:51:16 pm »

Hum. How could it be ?

I mean there is nothing in my stack saying the dCS(es) take 5s to relock on a new signal...
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Alex B

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2010, 01:09:28 pm »

If it doesn't "find" a correct delay value, apparently you can change the default value with the Windows Registry Editor.

The key is
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\JRiver\Media Center 15\Player Core\

Change "Startup Gap MS" to your preferred value. In the attached screenshot I have set it to 9000 ms.
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JimH

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2010, 01:11:03 pm »

If it doesn't "find" a correct delay value, apparently you can change the default value with the Windows Registry Editor.

The key is
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\JRiver\Media Center 15\Player Core\

Change "Startup Gap MS" to your preferred value. In the attached screenshot I have set it to 9000 ms.
Please try it without making any changes.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2010, 01:18:01 pm »

Ok, I'll try it this week end, but I doubt the default 2s will be enough.
Having gone so far as to add a new feature, you might want to make it customizable (defaut value could be 'auto').

I'll let you know as soon as I test it (can't right now, stuck in bed with a bad flu).
And especially if I have to tweak the registry (thanks Alex on this one).
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Alex B

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2010, 04:21:59 pm »

I mean there is nothing in my stack saying the dCS(es) take 5s to relock on a new signal...

You may be right on this. I don't think the S/PDIF interface can return that kind of info from an external DAC.

However, the registry tweak I explained would not be a permanent solution. If the option is disabled inside MC's interface the value is set to zero. Next time when it is enabled the tweaked value is not returned.

As a workaround, you could create a .reg file for changing the delay value quickly. Here is what you would need for six seconds:

Code: [Select]
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\JRiver\Media Center 15\Player Core\]
"Startup Gap MS"=dword:00001770


Paste the text to Notepad and save the file as a regular txt file. Change the filename extension to .reg. When the .reg file is double-clicked it will adjust the value in the registry. (It will show some usual warnings and probably you need to have administrator rights before you can do it.)

Here are some Hex values for different amounts of the delay time:

4500 ms = 00001197
5000 ms = 00001388
5500 ms = 0000157C
6000 ms = 00001770
6500 ms = 00001964
7000 ms = 00001B58

You can calculate any other value simply by using the standard Windows calculator in the scientific mode. Type the number in milliseconds in the Dec mode and switch to the Hex mode. Add the preceding four zeros so that the total length of the string is eight characters. I have tested this up to nine seconds. I don't know if there is a maximum allowed value.

Naturally, if it isn't working correctly without tweaking the registry, the developers may need to add a way to set it by hand inside MC, but please test it first and report.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2010, 03:24:18 pm »

Hi,

as expected, the default value is not enough.
I have used your value, to set 6s instead. Fine, that does the work.

BUT, playing with other (audio) options has reset the value to 2s unexpectedly.
The options I have played with are :
  • Audio/Audio Output/WASAPI/Buffering
  • Audio/Settings/Prebuffering
  • Audio/Track Change/Switch Tracks:
Maybe that has just to do with modifying another option (I mean everything else but "Play silence at startup for hardware synchronization") and pressing "OK".

I definitely think you will have to allow the user to choose that value from MC directly, instead of relying on this tweak.
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Matt

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2010, 04:16:39 pm »

We'll allow choosing the amount of delay in a coming build.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2010, 12:08:45 pm »

Excellent !  ;D
I've just purchased my mc15 license (happier to be sick this w-e, there is even a discount !  :-*)

As a side note, I do confirm that this is reset to default value each time OK is pressed.
That seems logical, since the value is not configurable so far.

This will be perfect very soon (on the audio side, afaik) , and I am very happy with my purchase of mc15.
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TontonGuigui

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Re: BelCanto USB Link 24/96 problem
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2010, 08:07:15 am »

Tested ok in 15.0.20 build.

Again, thanks a lot for all your efforts.
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