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[park]

Using tile view: Opened the bottom file list. Tried to change the sorting in the drop down menu on the tab, and it changed the sorting of the tiles. How do I change the sorting of the bottom list? I dont want to edit the view. I have it set up nicely. I just wanted to quickly see which files had been played most recently.

I think that it is time to have three panes in the main view. The top one should have Tiles/panes. The middle one should have album thumbnails. The bottom one should have a files list. Each header bar should have a sorting menu on it and a quick way to collapse that pane. The files list one should also have a "Grouping" on/off toggle.
It worked for images when you put in the big preview pane. It is easy to open and close.

[Matt]

To make advanced changes, you need to open 'Customize View...'

And to play devil's advocate, you're saying that it's too complex with two things on the screen (tiles and details below) yet at the same time calling for the addition of a third thing.  I think that would only add to the complexity.

Removing some of the possible permutations would simplify things, but would not be popular with advanced users.

[park]

We always disagree on this

I dont think I am asking for either simplification or more complexity. I don't want you to add or remove any functionality. My point is that the current system is just inconvenient. I want to be able to make temporary changes on the fly that won't affect my whole view or require me to create a new view. That means; sorting, grouping, and list styles.

Think about how you use the "Tag" link on thumbnails currently, and how you use the preview pane on images. A link called "Details" on album thumbnails which would reveal the details list would be cool. And a toggle in the top view to switch between panes and tiles would be equally cool.

My idea about 3 panes was a spur in the moment thought (although I still like the idea of a details pane being linked to the album thumbnails pane. Scroll the album thubnails and the details pane scrolls to match it too.).
Equally it could just be the 2 panes, but with a toggle to switch panes/tiles on the top one, and album thumbnails/details on the bottom one. And "Sorting" menus on each pane.

I seriously think that MC13 was the peak of MC's view style usability (we were able to change top and bottom list styles on the fly) and we've been regressing since then. Since my library is now very organized, I don't notice it much any more, but it always comes back to haunt me when I import new files and want to change view styles to tag my files, or when I want to change the bottom list sorting between "recently imported", "recently played", and my other custom sorting presets.

[rick.ca]

It seems to me you would not experience the same frustration if using a "Panes and Details" view. With the relevant fields included in the view, click on the column headers to change the sort order any way you like. But you must prefer a "Panes and Thumbnails" view. Still, you can use "Toggle List Style" (Ctrl-U) to temporarily switch to Details for sorting. With grouping off, you can even switch back and view Thumbnails in the same order.

[park]

Maybe I'm an oddball, but the view that I think is most powerful is Tiles at the top, and Grouped Details at the bottom (switchable to album thumbnails). This view allows me to browse visually (tiles), always see song data (details), see which albums have been imported/played most recently (by the sorting of the grouped details), and quickly just play a single song if I feel like it (details). It gives you the best balance between broad strokes type browsing (Genres, moods and artists), and honing in on specifically what you want to play (by looking at played, imported, ratings data) all without having to go into "Customize view" to reconfigure the whole view.

You are right that to achieve what I want I need to stay in panes view. But being stuck in panes view takes us back to the days of MC11.
I think I read a comment from Jim a long time ago that said that they didnt really intend to keep the bottom list pane with tiles view, and I guess that's why it doesnt really fit in with the Tiles type browsing method. It's like we're being pushed into using Tiles view like theater view: to go from one screen of thumbnails to the next, and use the sorting presets only on the top pane.

Also frustrating, you can't sort the groups using the "sort groups by" menu in the tab menu. It actually just regroups the files by that criteria instead of sorting groups.

[park]

And another one:

If you are in tiles view and click on a genre to go to artists, you can not then resort the artists in any way without having to reconfigure the whole view.

[rick.ca]

How do I change the sorting of the bottom list? I dont want to edit the view.

I was only trying to answer this question. My suggestion doesn't require the use of panes—it pertains to the bottom details view.

[park]

I just re-read this thread, and though frustrated, my tone comes across as especially negative. Forgive me for that.

I realise that using column headers and the list style icons in the top bar are currently the best way to change a view on the fly. My issue is just that the interface feels a couple of steps away from being truly flexible and intuitive.

[)p(]

To make advanced changes, you need to open 'Customize View...'

And to play devil's advocate, you're saying that it's too complex with two things on the screen (tiles and details below) yet at the same time calling for the addition of a third thing.  I think that would only add to the complexity.

Removing some of the possible permutations would simplify things, but would not be popular with advanced users.

With the dropdown panes it makes a lot of sense to add a third. This could be useful for many views. For example panes > album tumbs > details. I would use that one. Or paned > artist tumbs > album tumbs. Or panes > tv series tumbs > shows. Etc... I think this could make a great addition to mc15!

[rick.ca]

I agree with the DA. There are two fundamental things a view must do. One is to provide an efficient means for narrowing the selection of items for viewing. The other is to effectively convey information about the selected items. Adding a third pane has to somehow make doing those two things more complicated that it has to be. Panes are a highly effective means for performing the selection function. If they are used, they will do the job completely—and so the only thing left to do is display information. One of the remaining two panes is going to be redundant.

I would much rather have collapsible grouping in the second pane. A details view grouped by album would show one line per album in it's collapsed state, and all tracks would be shown in the expanded state (i.e., as it is now). Individual albums could be expanded or collapsed, and there would be commands for expanding/collapsing all groups. A thumbnail view is necessarily less flexible (it can't display expanded and collapsed items at the same time), but it would make sense to me if "expanding" an album cover would switch to a details view to display the tracks for that album. "Collapsing" the details would return to the album thumbnail view.

Behaviours like these allow the same functionality without the need for a third pane. They are also things done on-the-fly get the particular view required in the moment. For example, panes in the top view could be used to narrow a video selection to TV series, resulting in a display of series thumbnails in the bottom pane. Expanding one of those thumbnails would result in the thumbnails being replaced by a details view of episodes. The existence and behaviour of a third pane more likely needs to be determined by static configuration changes. Although a pane can hidden when not needed, having to resize panes constantly is a PITA.

[park]

I would agree with everything you've just said, plus I would add that the bottom view be independently sortable from the top view. You must be able to do to one pane what you can do to the other (change view style, and change sorting preset).

[rick.ca]

You must be able to do to one pane what you can do to the other (change view style, and change sorting preset).

Agreed, as long as it doesn't break any necessary logic of the selecting/viewing functions of the top/bottom panes. While I find the "Panes and Details" view the most useful and flexible one, I would appreciate being able to switch the the top pane to thumbnails—without the bottom pane being changed (and collapsed) at the same time. And while using thumbnails to "drill-down," there should be an "All" item to enable moving on to the next category without making a selection. The current design assumes every category included in the view is used for every selection. This is unnecessarily restrictive. I like to include categories like Year, which I normally use instead of Artist or Album in making a selection. So unless I can "skip over" a category, I can't use thumbnails for selecting.

[park]

Those are all very good points too. In many ways theater view has surpassed tiles view and some of it's features need to be brought over.

Whilst the "all" tile in theater view is very Effecuent when using a remote control I think that tiles view' use of links to jump a level is better suited to the mouse. My only issue with it is that the links don't stand out enough and often they don't all fit on the tile. Perhaps if they appeared as a popup when you clicked on a tile, the whole experience might be a bit more elegant.