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[tbillinge]

Apologies straight off if this has already been answered, but I’ve scoured this and the Twonky forum and found only one post mentioning seeing the same issue – but it was lost in a discussion of something else.

In a nutshell, I’m trying to use MC 15.0.70 as a control point for TwonkyServer, to serve music to another renderer (ultimately a Linn).

Not wanting to experiment with my full setup, I took a laptop and installed the latest TwonkyServer, TwonkyMediaManager, JRiver Media Center and a small music library.  Both TwonkyMediaManager and JRiver Media Center can (theoretically) act as controllers and renderers – I have enabled the two corresponding features in MC “media network” options, but not the one for “DLNA Server”.  I can then locate the Server from both TMM and MC, browse the media and double click to play in the local renderer – no problems (well, other than TMM not supporting flac playback).  JRiver shows Filenames such as http://<myIP>:9000/disk/DLNA-PNMP3-OP01-FLAG501700000/O0$1$7I21517.mp3 for mp3s and http://<myIP>:9000/disk/NON-DLNA /O0$1$7I6157.flac for flac – not sure why flac is listed as NON-DLNA, but both types work. 

I can also ‘see’ the alternate renderers from each control point – so TMM sees the JRiver renderer and I can drag files onto it and they magically start playing in MC.  But here’s the issue, if I ask MC to play something in TMM, it gives the error, “This feature requires a DLNA server to be running.  Please enable a DLNA server in Options > DLNA.”  If I go and enable the DLNA Server option for MC then it works (except that bizarrely TMM can only play flacs that MC passes to it, and not mp3s – which appear in the renderer but don’t play) but I shouldn’t need to be running a second server – it’s not even clear to me what is now happening, is the TwonkyServer serving to the MC Server which is then re-serving to the TMM renderer?

Am I missing something here, or is it a bonafide bug?

Tim.

[JimH]

You're deep into this, I can see.  I can't explain why you're seeing what you are.  But why not use MC's server?

There is a thread on the Linn forum about MC.  Let me know if you can't find it.

When you use a DLNA Control (similar to UPnP Control Point), I believe you need to control the Renderer, not the Server.

[tbillinge]

> You're deep into this, I can see.

Yeah, I often regret being an early adopter of DLNA.  I wanted a solution that was easier than getting up, browsing through CD cases, changing the disk...  instead I've had 2 years of banging my head against a wall trying to navigate my way through endless QNAP and Twonky bugs and quirks.  Then I bought a Linn DS and nearly died when I saw the text only desktop interface they gave you with your lovely peice of kit (the much better kinsky desktop wasn't around at the time).  Luckily a friend of mine is one half of Transmission Begins "catwalk" team, and he introduced me to JRiver!

> But why not use MC's server?

Good question, I should have included a bit more background.  I'm testing with all the compenents on one machine, but my true music library resides on a QNAP NAS, with built in TwonkyServer.  I want to get JRiver running as a control point because it's by far the nicest interface I've seen, but I need the server to stay on the NAS so that I can still stream music when the PC is switched off (using Songbook on the iPod as a controller for instance).

> When you use a DLNA Control (similar to UPnP Control Point), I believe you need to control the Renderer

Do you think I might see a different result if I let it see the Linn and try to control that?  It seems like the error is generated locally by JRiver, before it's even tried to contact the renderer... but I could be wrong.

Tim.

[JimH]

I would try the Linn if you haven't.

You could probably run Twonky when the PC is off and MC when it's on.

[DSKO]

Tim,

I believe this is the exact same issue I have reported earlier in May,
and acknowledged as a bug by Bob (from J River).

Please see this thread and post:

DLNA around my apartment
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=57750.msg391723#msg391723

Espen

[JimH]

It's an unimplemented feature, not a bug.  Here's what Bob said:

What's going on is that MC is getting the information from the DLNA server, processing it and passing it along to the renderer. What would need to be changed is for MC to get the information from the server and pass it directly to the renderer, kind of a redirect mode.

[DSKO]

Jim,

you said yourself in that thread:

No.  MC should be able to act as a standard DLNA Controller, regardless of the server.

Clearly, MC is NOT acting or working as "a standard DLNA Controller" with another DLNA Server (Twonky Server),
now confirmed also by Tim here.

A (standard) DLNA Controller MUST be able to interoperate between DLNA
devices from different manufacturers;
that's the whole point of DLNA.

Therefore, to me, the problem that Tim and I have pointed out here,
is a "bonafide bug", not a "unimplemented feature".

So, IMHO, if J River are going to claim MC can act as a DLNA Controller (DMC),
you HAVE to follow the DLNA specification for a DMC.
You can't make your own definition of what a DLNA Controller is.

Espen

[JimH]

Sorry, but you're being a little aggressive in your assertions.

DLNA is not a very tight standard.

The DLNA organization does not certify software, only hardware.

As I said, what you want is an unimplemented feature.  It may happen.

[DSKO]

OK, so what you are saying that the DLNA standard does NOT require
a DMC to control media from ANY DMS?

Espen

[Alex B]

Excuse me my ignorance, but aren't the simple file listings that are provided by standard DLNA servers always inferior to direct file access?

Does something prevent to simply importing the media files through the network share(s) to MC's library? It would provide the complete MC user interface with full access to the database and other MC features. It would also be fast because all file details would then be cached locally. Playback shouldn't be a problem. MC can push the played media files to DLNA renderers.

Having the files imported to MC shouldn't affect Twonky Server on the NAS anyhow.

[DSKO]

Alex, please read Tim's answer for an example of why not:

I want to get JRiver running as a control point because it's by far the nicest interface I've seen, but I need the server to stay on the NAS so that I can still stream music when the PC is switched off (using Songbook on the iPod as a controller for instance).

And how about a simple, lightweight wireless DMC touch walldisplay in every room
controlling small DMRs (for example JRiver ID) + amp?
Or TVs with DMC capabilities (better than DMP capabilities which plays through the TVs speakers)?

Espen

[Matt]

Alex, please read Tim's answer for an example of why not:

And how about a simple, lightweight wireless DMC touch walldisplay in every room
controlling small DMRs (for example JRiver ID) + amp?
Or TVs with DMC capabilities (better than DMP capabilities which plays through the TVs speakers)?

Espen

Unfortunately you can never turn the DMC off.  It feeds the DMR (renderer) a file at a time.

Some DMRs support giving it a playlist, but then metadata and cover art is not available.  On top of that, playlists don't work with many (most?) devices.

For these reasons, JRiver does the more standard file-at-a-time approach.  This means the DMC must remain active regardless.

[Alex B]

I want to get JRiver running as a control point because it's by far the nicest interface I've seen,

-- Files on the NAS (or any server that provides Windows file shares) -> imported to the nicest interface (a PC with MC) -> playback to DLNA devices

but I need the server to stay on the NAS so that I can still stream music when the PC is switched off (using Songbook on the iPod as a controller for instance).

-- The nicest interface is off, but the DLNA server on the NAS (or server PC) runs all the time and provides the needed services.

When the PC with the nicest interface happens to be running also MC's DNLA server is available for the iPod and other external interfaces and the user has two DLNA server choices.

I don't see a problem.


Regarding plain SW controllers that don't have server features, so far I have seen only awkward implementations that work in real-time. At best, they can import a selection of the files that are provided by the DLNA server to a simple playlist and then push the currently played file to a renderer. I have not seen anything that could be described as a "nice interface".

To store the imported DLNA server files, view customization and internal playlists in MC's nice interface between sessions MC would need to build a normal library from the info that is provided by the DLNA server. It would be based on an inferior amount of file data and the library updates and file access in general would be slower than necessary through UPnP. It would also be a one-way road. It would not be possible to save file tags or organize the files by using MC.

[DSKO]

I'm not the topic starter or a moderator here,
but Alex B and Matt; you are going off topic here.

This thread is about MC as a DMC not being able to control media from
a third party manufacturer DMS (for example Twonky Server).

Espen

[tbillinge]

Thanks everyone for the responses, was offline for the weekend and surprised to see the passion expressed this morning!

It's not important to me whether it's a bug or a missing feature, I just wanted to know if there was a way to get it to work - I guess I have my answer   The only things I'd add are:

• I would guess that not having this feature would preclude JRiver from becoming a certified DLNA control point - if such a thing exists.
• I won't be upgrading to MC15 until/unless this is implemented.  I don't mean this agressively, or as any kind of threat - if anything it's more like a promise to upgrade if/when it is implemented.
• Those arguing for importing the media library into MC as well as having it running on the NAS are somewhat missing the point of DLNA.

Regarding some of the slightly more off-topic stuff:

Let's not get too carried away with the "nice interface" stuff.  Yes, I like the interface, but I'd MUCH rather not have to have the PC on just to listen to some music.  So I'll only be using MC when I'm already sat at the PC for some other purpose, or when I'm building play lists that I can later serve from the NAS without having the PC on 

My main renderer is a Linn, which does support on-device play lists - providing gapless playback and multiple control point support.  Adding Transmission Begins' "Catwalk" plugin to JRiver provides support for these DLNA extensions through JRiver too - and (if the control point functionality were implemented) should theoretically allow me to seamlessly switch control points, and to turn the PC off without interrupting playback.  Incidentally, Linn are pushing for these extensions to be incorporated into the DLNA standard.

JimH/JRiver, if there's any information I can provide to assist with stand-alone control point support, let me know.

Tim.

[Alex B]

I'm not the topic starter or a moderator here,
but Alex B and Matt; you are going off topic here.

This thread is about MC as a DMC not being able to control media from
a third party manufacturer DMS (for example Twonky Server).

In general, I am trying to offer a solution that works now and is useful for all MC users who may find this thread when they have a similar issue.

Thanks everyone for the responses, was offline for the weekend and surprised to see the passion expressed this morning!

It's not important to me whether it's a bug or a missing feature, I just wanted to know if there was a way to get it to work - I guess I have my answer  The only things I'd add are:

• I would guess that not having this feature would preclude JRiver from becoming a certified DLNA control point - if such a thing exists.
• I won't be upgrading to MC15 until/unless this is implemented.  I don't mean this agressively, or as any kind of threat - if anything it's more like a promise to upgrade if/when it is implemented.
• Those arguing for importing the media library into MC as well as having it running on the NAS are somewhat missing the point of DLNA.

Regarding some of the slightly more off-topic stuff:

Let's not get too carried away with the "nice interface" stuff.  Yes, I like the interface, but I'd MUCH rather not have to have the PC on just to listen to some music.  So I'll only be using MC when I'm already sat at the PC for some other purpose, or when I'm building play lists that I can later serve from the NAS without having the PC on  

My main renderer is a Linn, which does support on-device play lists - providing gapless playback and multiple control point support.  Adding Transmission Begins' "Catwalk" plugin to JRiver provides support for these DLNA extensions through JRiver too - and (if the control point functionality were implemented) should theoretically allow me to seamlessly switch control points, and to turn the PC off without interrupting playback.  Incidentally, Linn are pushing for these extensions to be incorporated into the DLNA standard.

JimH/JRiver, if there's any information I can provide to assist with stand-alone control point support, let me know.

I guess I am just a bit stumped. Why someone would not want to use MC for organizing the stuff on the server (uploading, tagging, renaming, saving playlists [MC can save playlists with relative locations], adding and managing cover art, etc). Among the most wonderful things in MC are its database/media management features and the various configurable ways to present, filter and search library data.

I tried to explain that when MC is already running and you want to play stuff through MC, there is no need to use the inferior UPnP/DLNA system for the data traffic between the server and MC. I can understand the need for a pure DLNA controller when the media hub provides only the DLNA server features, but do such devices exist?

Currently MC can control the DLNA renderers, unless a specific device happens to not co-operate nicely (which may be easily fixable after the cause is found).

Naturally, during the times when MC is not used, its included or missing DNLA features do not matter at all.


All that said, in addition to using a regular media library or libraries, surely it would be nice to be able quickly connect any occasional DLNA server on the LAN so that there would be no need to change to another program.

A possible implementation could include:

1. Ability to select a DLNA server from a drop-down list and download & browse the current file listings in real time. (The interface could be in a new tree node)
2. Ability to select one or more of the provided file groups, playlist and/or individual files and sent the selection to one of the Playing Now lists (the DLNA renderers are presented as Zones under Playing Now). Naturally the usual "sent to play" options would be useful also here (replace and play, add and play, just add, etc).

[tbillinge]

I guess I am just a bit stumped. Why someone would not want to use MC for organizing the stuff on the server (uploading, tagging, renaming, saving playlists [MC can save playlists with relative locations], adding and managing cover art, etc). Among the most wonderful things in MC are its database/media management features and the various configurable ways to present, filter and search library data.

That's not what I'm saying Alex.  Sure, I'd be mad not to use a rich interface like MC for managing my database.  I'm saying that I don't want to use it as a DLNA server, because I already have one, running on my always-on NAS, controllable from anywhere around my house by any number of control points.  (This being the point of DLNA.)

I tried to explain that when MC is already running and you want to play stuff through MC, there is no need to use the inferior UPnP/DLNA system for the data traffic between the server and MC. I can understand the need for a pure DLNA controller when the media hub provides only the DLNA server features, but do such devices exist?

Point taken.  You get a richer experience by connecting to your library as a network drive, rather than over UPnP/DLNA, which doesn't allow you to update file tags...  and without the Linn DLNA extensions for on-device playlist there's not much upside to DLNA (except for halving the network traffic - read flac files off your network drive to your PC and forward them to the Linn, vs the NAS talking directly to the Linn).  However, for me playback (general listening) is a different activity from library management (aside from star ratings, but I have an issue with how MC handles that for flac anyway).

All that said, in addition to using a regular media library or libraries, surely it would be nice to be able quickly connect any occasional DLNA server on the LAN so that there would be no need to change to another program.

A great solution would be if you could connect to the library on the network drive and "shadow" it with a DLNA link.  That way the streaming could come straight from the server, but MC would still have a handle on the underlying file to update the tags.  (Yes, I know, I'm dreaming.)

[Alex B]

.. except for halving the network traffic - read flac files off your network drive to your PC and forward them to the Linn, vs the NAS talking directly to the Linn...

This is a valid point. I have not experienced bandwidth problems on a wired LAN (I can redirect lossless audio, play HD video and have some heavy WAN traffic going on simultaneously through a single NIC), but when several LAN components are connected by wireless and the reception may be less than optimal in some places it would of course be better to avoid unnecessary traffic.