Topic: MC15 for multiroom posible like this? (Read 4751 times)

Freak1 · « **on:** January 24, 2011, 04:04:22 pm »

Hi forum.

So i just signed up after just reading. I'm trying to find out how and if MC15 can fill my needs.
There more i read the more confused i get so now I'm trying here.

Forget me but I'm totally new to this, only installed the app. a few days ago.

Heres my goals.
Have 1 PC that plays music, pot-casts, radio and Internet radio. Be able to play it in 5 zones all the same in sync or different things in every room. I have an old Pentium 4 i could use so its or i can use my I7 HTPC. I like to keep things separate so things don't get to complicated. What do you think?

zone 1 will be my TV room that has a 7.1 system I'm planing on making a 9.2 hooked up to a HTPC
zone 2 will be kitchen and dining room and bathroom
zone 3 will be living room
zone 4 will be bedroom that has a 5.1 system hooked up to a HTPC
zone 5 will be the office

I will then use my onkyo 607 that has 9 speaker outs for zone 2+3+5 with a total of 9 speakers.

Then i guess i need some 1 or more sound cards for the PC so it can output 5xStereo? Will any do? How is this set up so it plays different things to 5 zones?

Then i need to think of a way to control the PC from where ever i am. Here i am lost, should i use PCs, Ipads, phones or?

Also how do i control the volume at every zone plus the 3 amps?

So is this even possible? I was thinking about using Sonos for this but i like to get a total PC solution instead and Sonos costs ALOT.

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2011, 05:39:40 pm »

Welcome to Interact.

MC can do that. You can use sound devices for each zone or you can use a 5.1 card to do 3 zones if the sound device supports that.

To get 5.1 output at the receiver, you would need to send a digital signal that the receiver decodes.

These articles on the wiki should help:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes

and

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Surround_Sound

glynor · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2011, 05:48:55 pm »

One caution: MC can sync the different playback zones, but the sync is not accurate down to the millisecond (unless this changed recently, I haven't tried it in a while). That means, if you want to play to all of your zones simultaneously, and you can hear the output of Zone 1 from the location of Zone 2, then they won't be perfectly in sync.

If you can't hear the audio clearly from the adjoining rooms, though (or if you keep those in the same zone), then it'll be fine.

Nevermind. See below.

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2011, 05:55:09 pm »

Quote from: glynor on January 24, 2011, 05:48:55 pm

One caution: MC can sync the different playback zones, but the sync is not accurate down to the millisecond (unless this changed recently, I haven't tried it in a while). That means, if you want to play to all of your zones simultaneously, and you can hear the output of Zone 1 from the location of Zone 2, then they won't be perfectly in sync.

Physical connected zones sync with high accuracy. Search for ZoneLink in the Wiki. We did a lot of work on this for v15.

DLNA zones have lower accuracy since the hardware itself is out of our control.

rick.ca · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2011, 05:59:13 pm »

Quote

One caution: MC can sync the different playback zones, but the sync is not accurate down to the millisecond (unless this changed recently, I haven't tried it in a while).

Another caution: It might take the sound 20 ms to get from Zone 2 to Zone 1 anyway.

glynor · « **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:19:31 pm »

Quote from: Matt on January 24, 2011, 05:55:09 pm

Physical connected zones sync with high accuracy. Search for ZoneLink in the Wiki. We did a lot of work on this for v15.

Okay. I was wrong. I certainly have not tried it for a long time.

JustinChase · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:19:52 pm »

With all that said, yes, you can do what you want, and with a little patience (and lots of searching/reading) you can set it up exactly as you've described, and more.

You can (probably) control playback of those zones from (depending on) your mobile device, including selecting which playlists to play, shuffle, start, pause, stop, everything but tag (rate

) songs and control the syncing of the zones, which must be done from any computer with MC installed.

You can also name the zones for easy recognition, and many new consumer devices are DLNA devices, and can control or be controlled by MC.

It does wonders with movies also, including my favorite container the .mkv files.

The help and wiki are never quite up to date, since MC is constantly being improved, but the forum is very helpful, so if you can't find it in your forum search or the help or wiki, ask here, and someone is usually quick to respond. The developers read and help throughout the day, and suggestions are welcomed (and often implemented

)

The more you play, the cooler it gets; have fun, and keep us posted on your success

glynor · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2011, 06:23:19 pm »

Quote from: rick.ca on January 24, 2011, 05:59:13 pm

Another caution: It might take the sound 20 ms to get from Zone 2 to Zone 1 anyway.

True enough. I did actually know that you could never sync down to the actual millisecond scale (heck, it takes time for the sound to go from the speaker cones to your ears across the air). I was being terse and in-exact for brevity's sake. Of course, they did fix the issue and I didn't know, so I was still way off the mark.

rick.ca · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2011, 08:52:23 pm »

Quote

True enough...

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. In part, I was recalling a question that occurred to me at the time the feature was first introduced—and had to be synchronized by ear. Finding that very frustrating, I wondered why it wasn't automatic, and then whether the time for the sound to travel from the distant zone would be a factor. I have no idea what the delay would have to be before the ear can detect an "echo." Maybe it's only an issue for those living in open-plan mansions.

glynor · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2011, 09:04:01 pm »

Quote from: rick.ca on January 24, 2011, 08:52:23 pm

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time.

I know. It made me laugh.

fitbrit · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2011, 10:13:39 pm »

Quote from: Freak1 on January 24, 2011, 04:04:22 pm

Hi forum.

So i just signed up after just reading. I'm trying to find out how and if MC15 can fill my needs.
There more i read the more confused i get so now I'm trying here.

Forget me but I'm totally new to this, only installed the app. a few days ago.

Heres my goals.
Have 1 PC that plays music, pot-casts, radio and Internet radio. Be able to play it in 5 zones all the same in sync or different things in every room. I have an old Pentium 4 i could use so its or i can use my I7 HTPC. I like to keep things separate so things don't get to complicated. What do you think?

zone 1 will be my TV room that has a 7.1 system I'm planing on making a 9.2 hooked up to a HTPC
zone 2 will be kitchen and dining room and bathroom
zone 3 will be living room
zone 4 will be bedroom that has a 5.1 system hooked up to a HTPC
zone 5 will be the office

I will then use my onkyo 607 that has 9 speaker outs for zone 2+3+5 with a total of 9 speakers.

Then i guess i need some 1 or more sound cards for the PC so it can output 5xStereo? Will any do? How is this set up so it plays different things to 5 zones?

Then i need to think of a way to control the PC from where ever i am. Here i am lost, should i use PCs, Ipads, phones or?

Also how do i control the volume at every zone plus the 3 amps?

So is this even possible? I was thinking about using Sonos for this but i like to get a total PC solution instead and Sonos costs ALOT.

Just a note of caution that the 607 will only power three stereo pairs, plus a mono for 7 channels, despite having 9 speaker outs; in "normal" operation the 607 can only support 7.1 (7.2?) in either conventional surround, or 5.1 with width (DSX) or height (DSX or PLIIz) modes. So you couldn't do a fourth zone from the 607, nor run a 5.1 set-up plus two extra stereo zones. You'd have to step up to the 1007/1008 or above in the Onkyo line up to achieve this.

Freak1 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2011, 12:22:07 am »

Hi again.

Thanks for all the replys. I really apriciate it.

Let me know if i got this right.

1. I need to use digital wires for every amp? So i need 1-3 sound cards with a total of 3 digital outs. Any suggestions? How many different zones can i get in one optical or coaxial line? Can i get all 4 zones? 7.1 speakers?

2. I guess making all 3 wires the same length will minimize a delay that there might be?

3. I can't use my Onkyo 607 for more then 4 zones 3 stereo and 1 mono. Can i then use my Onkyo 1008 (That I'm planing on getting instead of my 607) to control 9.2 in my TV room + 1x stereo for another zone? or is it the same 11 outputs but only 9 working at the same time?

4. For control i can use any PC that i have installed MC15 on? Then maybe a windows 7 tablet like the HP Slate 500? And then also Android phones. Are there anymore options?

Is there any starting guides as I'm quiet lost as how to get things like controlling from another PC, Playing 2 different things to different speakers. All i got working now is playing some files

EDIT: I have an extra old H/K 5.1 amp i might use for the last room so no rooms will be left out. So 4 Amps, in total, wow this is getting big. Is it still possible?

Scolex · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2011, 08:16:18 am »

Quote from: Freak1 on January 26, 2011, 12:22:07 am

1. I need to use digital wires for every amp? So i need 1-3 sound cards with a total of 3 digital outs. Any suggestions? How many different zones can i get in one optical or coaxial line? Can i get all 4 zones? 7.1 speakers?

You need digital out to amps that are going to be running more than a stereo pair. (zones 1 & 5)
If the amp has multi channel analog input you can also use the analog outputs from the SC. (can be a cabling nightmare digital is easier/cleaner)
Number of sound cards depends on the sound card and if the ports are configurable.
For example my SC has spdif out (optical or coaxial) and 7.1 analog but is configurable and can run:
spdif + 7.1
spdif + 5.1 + 2ch
spdif + 4.1 + 2.1
spdif + 2.1 + 2.1 + 2

Quote

2. I guess making all 3 wires the same length will minimize a delay that there might be?

Cable length has little to no impact it is more a matter of the amp's internal latency.

Quote

4. For control i can use any PC that i have installed MC15 on? Then maybe a windows 7 tablet like the HP Slate 500? And then also Android phones. Are there anymore options?

Virtually anything that can connect to the network can be used as long as it has a browser or can be used as a dlna controller

Scolex · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2011, 08:26:41 am »

Side note: (why cable length has little to no impact)
speed of sound through copper
4600 Meters per Second = 10289.90694345025 Miles per Hour
I doubt your house is big enough to have an impact

rick.ca · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2011, 01:57:14 pm »

The wire is transmitting an electrical signal, not sound. The speed would be in the order of 100 million m/s. That's a really really big house.

I'll leave it to others to explain the valid reasons to be concerned about cable length.

Scolex · « **Reply #15 on:** January 26, 2011, 06:22:07 pm »

OK so I had a brain fart and yes it is electricity but my point is still valid, cable run length is typically not relevant.
Can you hear differences that are measured in nanoseconds (.000000001 second)?

Quote:
The typical 12AWG zip cord has about 3.4 mohms of loop resistance per foot, .200uH/ft of Inductance and about 20pF/ft of capacitance. As the cable length increases, these three parameters increase proportionally. However, it takes very long lengths of cable to cause measurable, let alone audible differences. If we examine the data from our various Speaker Cable Face Off articles, particularly Speaker Cable Face Off I, we see that a 10ft length of 12AWG zip cord terminated into a 4 ohm load only experiences -.088dB of loss at 20kHz and about 2nsec of group delay. Increase the cable length to about 50ft and we do see losses surmount to about -.745dB and 209nsec. Note that at 20 kHz, a phase shift of 36 degrees represents 5 microseconds (almost 24 times larger than our 50ft cable delay), this delay being considered as close to the limit of human directionality perception. Further examining the data from our article Skin Effect Relevance in Speaker Cables we illustrated that model for human hearing is highly insensitive to ultra high frequency response and also discussed that music above 8kHz is harmonic in nature with minimal content at the high frequency extremes. It is a good idea however to use lower gauge wire (10 AWG or less) for runs greater than 50ft to minimize these losses especially when driving loudspeakers with a low impedance (4 ohms or less) profile.

Source

glynor · « **Reply #16 on:** January 26, 2011, 06:41:14 pm »

I just thought I'd throw out there that if anyone IS considering running cabling all over their homes, I can REALLY strongly recommend considering RapidRun AV cables from CablestoGo.com.

I use them all over the place at work, and for things you're running through walls and conduit and small crallspaces... Trust me, you will thank me one day when you really wish you could turn that Component cable you ran into an S-Video and a VGA cable instead. The cable system has three main types of "cable" (multimedia, VGA, and digital) and then a wide variety of different ends that you can attach to these cables to turn them into whatever type of connection you need (they're color coded so it is easy to tell which "ends" can work with which cables). So, you can They are great for pulling through conduit, reliable, CL2 rated (and available in Plenum if you're paranoid), and they are well shielded (though be careful with the VGA+Audio cables, I've had trouble with the audio on them).

Buy them from Amazon though. They are about 1/2 the "list price" on Amazon, usually, for the same thing.

fitbrit · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2011, 01:13:54 am »

Quote from: Freak1 on January 26, 2011, 12:22:07 am

Hi again.

3. I can't use my Onkyo 607 for more then 4 zones 3 stereo and 1 mono. Can i then use my Onkyo 1008 (That I'm planing on getting instead of my 607) to control 9.2 in my TV room + 1x stereo for another zone? or is it the same 11 outputs but only 9 working at the same time?

No, the 1008 only does 9 channels at the same time. I've heard that the new Denons that have Audyssey DSX allow you to do 9.2 and have preouts to get 11.2. However, the Denons are supposed to be a lot buggier than the Onkyos, and I love the Onkyo sound. I wish Onkyo would give us the option of adding an external amp and getting the full Audyssey High+Wide DSX+ Rear 11.2. High and Wide DSX sound great separately - I can only imagine how they'd sound together.
I own two 5007s and one 1007. I hope the X009s will do what we want/need. So for your purposes, you'd need more than a 9.2 amp.

glynor · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2011, 09:01:14 am »

Quote from: fitbrit on January 27, 2011, 01:13:54 am

However, the Denons are supposed to be a lot buggier than the Onkyos, and I love the Onkyo sound.

I have a 2010 Denon and it has been wonderful. Onkyo had some serious trouble with the sourcing on some components in their power amps this year, and their 2010 amps are quite prone to blow outs. I know someone personally who has gone through three RMAs on a current-model Onkyo in less than a year. There are similar reports all over AVS and web stores.

I've always loved their stuff, but be careful with the current models. I'd probably wait for the stuff they announced at CES this year to start shipping before I lept on anything from them, especially at the lower-end, this year. That's why I ended up with a Denon instead of an Onkyo for my birthday amp upgrade this past year.

JimH · « **Reply #19 on:** January 27, 2011, 09:11:48 am »

Do your receivers support DLNA? If so, can you control them from MC? Or do you have to use the receiver to "pull" media?

Make and model would be nice.

Scolex · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2011, 01:50:04 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 27, 2011, 09:11:48 am

Make and model would be nice.

Onkyo 607 you missed it.

JustinChase · « **Reply #21 on:** January 27, 2011, 07:18:13 pm »

Quote from: glynor on January 27, 2011, 09:01:14 am

I have a 2010 Denon and it has been wonderful.

Do you know if the Denon firmware is upgradable yourself, or is it like the Marantz (I think still currently, not sure) which requires you to pay a dealer to do it for you? The want $150 to upgrade mine to fix a 2 second delay whenever you switch/initiate a digital input. Not a huge deal, but constantly a little annoying.

Anyway, I'm considering making the move to something with HD audio processing, DLNA and I'm thinking I'd like Ethernet also, to allow control from MC (Gizmo; PRETTY PLEASE

), and preamp outs to send to my still (otherwise) great Marantz for more zones.

I haven't really looked at receivers since I bought mine some 10+ years ago.

I'm considering Onkyo, Yamaha and Pioneer at the moment, and would like to be under $500.

I didn't/don't mean to hijack this thread, but any suggestions are welcome

Mainly I was wondering about the firmware with Denon, if you happen to know; and whether you're happy with the purchase, it sounds as though you are.

Also, does anyone know if I can use a second HDMI cable to run the signal to multiple channels on the new receiver? Basically, I want to be able to add zones to MC, and send those signals with one HDMI cable, then have the receiver route those signals thru the pre-outs to the Marantz amps to power the zones vs running a separate cable for each zone to the Marantz, if that makes sense.

Thanks

fitbrit · « **Reply #22 on:** January 27, 2011, 08:37:21 pm »

Quote from: glynor on January 27, 2011, 09:01:14 am

I have a 2010 Denon and it has been wonderful. Onkyo had some serious trouble with the sourcing on some components in their power amps this year, and their 2010 amps are quite prone to blow outs. I know someone personally who has gone through three RMAs on a current-model Onkyo in less than a year. There are similar reports all over AVS and web stores.

I've always loved their stuff, but be careful with the current models. I'd probably wait for the stuff they announced at CES this year to start shipping before I lept on anything from them, especially at the lower-end, this year. That's why I ended up with a Denon instead of an Onkyo for my birthday amp upgrade this past year.

This will sound snobby, but I'm only using the highest end 2009/2010 Onkyos - and they've been a complete pleasure. The AVS thread about issues on these has very few issues that haven't been fixed by firmware upgrades, which are downloaded and installed painlessly via the onscreen display and the internet connection. The main issue now is relay clicking when source audio format changes, which can be fixed if the user configures the receiver properly.

Freak1 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2011, 03:41:47 am »

I have yet again put my mind to this. I have 3x 5.1 systems that i might use for this.

So it will be a total of 5 systems feed by 1 HTPC So ill need 5 HDMI outs that can carry sound, can i only do this by installing 5 graphics cards? They are not cheap and they make a lot of heat and i think most fills 2 spots so it will be very difficult.

fitbrit · « **Reply #24 on:** February 02, 2011, 02:33:34 pm »

There are several ways to do this.

You could buy an HDMI distribution box.
For the price of a low to mid-range graphics card you could output 8 HDMI zones from your one video card's input.
Advantages:
Outside the PC, so no extra internal heat
Cheap compared to multiple video/audio cards
Independent of software so you can use with anything , not just MC
Will transfer video too.
Requires an HDMI receiver in each zone.

Disadvantages:
All zones will see and hear same material
Can't use MC to independently configure zones
Have to run a multitude of HDMI cables everywhere.

You can do a similar thing by an impedance-matching using a speaker distribution box out of your receiver too:
Advantages:
Can send audio to four additional zones from one output on your receiver.
Therefore with three of these, you can have five 5.0 zones (I think). Box one: Front L+R, Box two: Surround L+R, Box three: Centre channel
Signal is already amplified, so no need for receivers in each zone; just run speaker wire from the distribution boxes to each pair of speakers.

Disadvantges:
All zones hear same audio
Can't run all speakers in all rooms at full blast (depending on the amplifier you have).
Can't use MC to control different zones.
Cheapest boxes have no remote control
Have to run speaker wire from box to all speakers in each zone.

You could also take your motherboard's audio outputs, or that from any audio card, including optical and analog stereo outputs and run these to separate amps and receivers in other rooms. In the case of the optical or digital coaxial, you should be able to get 5.1 sound out to different zones. For the analog signals, the best you could do is in-receiver upmixing like Dolby ProLogic II variants, or DTS: Neo ones.
Advantages:
Can use MC to configure zones and control what's played where.
Can play different audio in different zones.

Disadvantages:
Not "true" 5.1 in some zones, rather it's faked by processing.
Have to run a multitude of various cables everywhere.
Must have a processing receiver (digital optical/co-axial) or amp (analog outputs) in each zone

If you have an wired or wireless ethernet network, you could buy DLNA rendering devices, or mini PCs running MC in each zone.
Advantages:
No need to run new wiring.
Ultimate control with MC - can play same (link zones) or different material.
Can play 5.1 surround in each zone.
Can use video as well as audio, within the limitations of the rendering device (is it audio only, like ID?) and your network (1080p playback through a wireless connection may be choppy).

Disadvantages:
Need an amplifier or receiver in each zone.
Could get expensive if using MC running PCs in each zone.
If using a mulitude of different DLNA rendering devices, it may get complicated to configure your server etc.

Freak1 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 08, 2011, 06:58:39 am »

First off. Thanks for explaining, i have been reading it many times and thought alot about my options.

I really want to be able to play different things in different rooms, so that leaves out a few.

I have some Sony 5.1 systems i might use as they have HDMI and Optical in. They also have HDMI out so if i wish to later i could add a TV, if i used HDMI out from the HTPC, but will the HTPC be able to handle 3 Graphics cards? And send 3 different sound streams or even video?

Or is it better to just get some soundcards and then use optical wires? Is there any kind or brand that works better?

DLNA is also i thing i am considering but my 5.1 systems does not support it. Only the Resiver in my Bedroom and TV-room. And they both also have HTPSs so maybe just install MC 15 on those as well? They can still all be controlled from 1 place?

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Author Topic: MC15 for multiroom posible like this? (Read 4751 times)