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[JimH]

I'm about to announce Red October over at AVSForum.  Here's my draft for your comment...

[Edit -- Posted at AVSForum here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1343013
end Edit]

DirectShow and Red October (Not the movie)

Some of you may know that I'm the original employee at JRiver.  We publish JRiver Media Center, one of several DirectShow capable video players.  I want to say a few words about our experience with DirectShow and some of you will no doubt be wondering why.  I'll try to explain.

But let's start first with what I understand DirectShow to be.  Then I'll go on to what I think it's weaknesses are, and eventually to our new solution.

Years ago, Microsoft launched DirectShow technology, a method of handling audio and video with what I'll call "interchangeable parts".  Any player that was DS compatible could theoretically load and use any DS filters.  In theory it offered a way to standardize processing and playback of media.

For the less technical, a "filter" is a piece of software that can be strung together with others to create a "graph", something like a chain of beads.  At the beginning there may be a reader (to read the file), then a spltter (to separate audio from video), various decoders (to decompress the audio and video), and a renderer (to paint the picture on the screen).

Microsoft also devised a "merit" system to allow competing filters to nominate themselves for insertion in the graph.  This is one of the big problems with DirectShow, in my opinion.  It allows bad filters to be chosen instead of good filters, so it causes a lot of problems at playback time.

Novice users find the normal Windows merit-based DirectShow system difficult.  They need to understand that these additional "pieces" are required in order to get even the most common video formats to work.  Once you have a working setup, it is difficult to keep everything up-to-date.  It is also difficult for the developer to stay on top of best practices with the system.

We've wrestled with these problems for several years.  Each machine usually has a number of filters installed, and they often don't work well when the graph is built.  Our solution has been a little lame, I admit.  When a user had a problem, we suggested installing CCCP, a well known filter "pack" that included "good" versions of ffdshow, haali, and other filters.  This often worked.

We also pointed users to an excellent DirectShow Playback Guide, written by one of our expert users, glynor.  You can see what a wall of text it is here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DirectShow_Playback_Guide

Usually one of these two remedies worked, but not always.  

So we began thinking about including our own filter pack and setting it up ourselves.  About the same time, LAV and madVR came to our attention.

As a result of a lot of hard work and cooperation with a number of developers and users, in the latest build of JRiver Media Center 16, we now have our own new DirectShow technology that we call Red October.  It has these modes:

Red October Standard -- MC16 automatically downloads, installs, and configures known good versions of LAV Splitter, LAV Audio Decoder, ffdshow, and EVR.  We build the graph and don't allow anything else.  This results in video playback that just works.

Red October HQ -- Same as above, but adding madVR as the renderer.  This is more processor intensive, so it only works well on pretty good CPU's -- i3 or above.  Using madVR with MC16's VideoClock feature results in no dropped frames regardless of the source fps or display frequency.

For those who like to tinker, we added three advanced modes:

Red October Standard with additional filters -- Our base plus your additional filters.

Red October HQ with additional filters -- Our base plus yours again.

Windows Merit Based -- the same as the original Windows DirectShow selection.

In addition, Red October uses its own location and settings for all filters, and we "register" them ourselves, so there is no conflict with other players.  Red October also ignores the Windows Merit system (while leaving it in place for other players) and RO has a white list for additional good filters.  The Red October system is completely independent of everything else on the PC.

MC16 can now set a default that we know will work.  Even a novice can now get the highest quality DirectShow playback without suffering the pain of DS configuration.  And the DirectShow tweaker will still find room to play.

We're very grateful to nevcairiel, madshi, jmone, glynor, SamuriHL, and many others who helped guide this and upon whom we depend for their sage expert advice.

I am extremely grateful to John Thompson and Matt Ashland, who helped create this amazing new system. It's one of the best projects JRiver has ever done.
 
Jim Hillegass

[rjm]

Nice.

A couple comments:

1) We are fortunate to have glynor in our community.

2) A paragraph on why LAV and madVR are better than CCCP would be good. I've noticed no difference on an XP system with a 24" monitor but I've got a feeling that there is some good stuff lurking there that I might want to take advantage of some day.

[MrC]

You have the background and story, but need an action statement...  something along the lines of:

We trust you'll love RO and MC 16, and we'd like you to come on over and give MC and RO a try....

<link to MC here>

[marko]

I was thinking about the "Red October" option name...

I like it when I venture into the options of new software if the name of the option indicates what effect the option will have.

MC novices, especially those who do not frequent these boards, will have no idea what "Red October" means, and there are no tooltips in "Options". There is a "Help" button though, so I tried that...

It lead me to http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Video_Playback_Options reasonably quickly, but there is no mention of "Red October" on that page. Excerpts from the above release should be added to that page as the option is bound to produce questions.

The release itself reads well, is easy to understand and makes sense. It will be interesting to see how it is accepted by the often highly critical AVS peeps.

-marko

[JimH]

You have the background and story, but need an action statement...  something along the lines of:

We trust you'll love RO and MC 16, and we'd like you to come on over and give MC and RO a try....

<link to MC here>

Thanks, but I can't be that bold there.  The mods may close my thread if they feel I'm just trying to get free advertising.  People can find us if they want to.

They are more tolerant of users who recommend a product though.

[glynor]

All-in-all, I think that's good.  I would probably explain the reasoning behind abandoning the Microsoft merit-based filter selection system a bit more:

"One of the biggest problems with using the normal Windows merit-based DirectShow system is that it is very difficult for users.  First of all, novice users need to know that they need all of these additional "pieces" to get even the most common video formats to work.  And, once you get a working system, it is very difficult to keep everything up-to-date, keep various pieces of 3rd party software working nicely together, and select the optimal settings in the various filters.  Plus, it is equally difficult for developers like us to stay on top of best practices with the system and keep everything well documented.  A case in point would be the DirectShow Playback Guide, which was very good when it was written, but is now terribly out of date."

I'd also say something more "firm" about the fact that Red October DOES NOT modify the existing merit-based system in Windows.  You mention this, but it feels like there is wiggle room in your statement.  A big part of what is "beautiful" about the Red October system is that it is independent of everything else on the system, much like VLC, so you can use it without worrying that it is going to break some other piece of software on your system.

[mojave]

I would add that Red October also uses the LAV Audio decoder.

When you mention "Red October (HQ) with additional filters" you might want to give an example:  "You can use our internal filters and specify your own filters such as LAV CUVID as the video filter."

"Sage Advice" sounds a little funny considering Sage TV was just purchased by Google.

[glynor]

"Sage Advice" sounds a little funny considering Sage TV was just purchased by Google.

Sigh.... Don't remind me. 

[mojave]

I think you should throw in a sentence about VideoClock. You could tie it into madVR:  "Using madVR in combination with our new VideoClock option results in no dropped frames regardless of source fps or display frequency."

[JimH]

Thanks for the help.  Here's the thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1343013

[glynor]

Thanks for the help.  Here's the thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1343013

Looks good, Jim.  Thank you and your entire team for the amazing work on this impressive new system.

[JimH]

Thanks for the help.  The good news is that the thread on AVSForum stood.  I thought the mods might take it down or that the gurus might dis it.  It's a tough crowd over there.  Too many really smart guys.

[glynor]

They can be a bit crotchety over there.  That's why I stay mostly a lurker.

Probably just makes me look like a J River fanboy, but whatever... I am really. 

[Magic_Randy]

Nice writeup.

[KingSparta]

I'm the original employee at JRiver

Funny

[steelman1991]

Hi Guys - new user

Your link and write up at AVSForums certainly had the effect of bringing me over to MC (initially for a look, and well we'll see about a purchase).

First impressions on playback are excellent - seamless transfer from start to playback which not all front-ends have (used all the front ends at some point and never settled on one to be honest). Second impressions on media display/integration and scraping aren't so impressive - have been pottering now for over 2 days and am finding the whole set-up quite irritating.

Coming from a MediaPortal, XBMC and MediaBrowser background, the ease of access to the bells, whistles and eye candy are what makes these programmes popular - well that and they are in the main free. If as a package you are targetting the HTPC 'crowd', the ability to quickly set-up and achieve movie info, poster etc will have to be more seamless as well - perhaps I'm missing something and will certainly continue to read and trial the software, but just thought I would chime in with some initial thoughts and to let you know that the 'plug' was successful with at least one user.

For me free isn't always best - as my initial thoughts on playback with your software have already proven.

[glynor]

Welcome!

If as a package you are targetting the HTPC 'crowd', the ability to quickly set-up and achieve movie info, poster etc will have to be more seamless as well

I think even the developers here would agree with you on that.  They've made some strides lately, and there are some 3rd Party Plugins that can help get what you want for now (by and large), but I think you're right generally.  We actually had a big discussion about this exact topic not too long ago.  I think the result of that was some planning for changes in the future, and some immediate changes (that have helped to a degree) in Theater View.  In the end, I believe it is not for lack of desire to address that issue (automatic metadata acquisition for new content) but a question of resource allocation and priorities.

But definitely take some time to play with it.  The flexibility of the metadata system in MC is really unparalleled, and so is its data-entry and manipulation capabilities.  We just need better ways to fill that metadata from online sources.

[JimH]

In the end, I believe it is not for lack of desire to address that issue (automatic metadata acquisition for new content) but a question of resource allocation and priorities.

That's correct.

[JimH]

CountryBumpkin had some nice things to say here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20663570#post20663570