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[kerenlaser]

Hello, I am new in this forum.

I am studying the prospects of backing up my vinyl library at the highest quality I can afford. My current favorite plan is as follows.

Purchase a Korg MR-2 recorder and MC software.

Record the native cartridge (V15VMR) analog output (without RIAA eq), either as DSD64 or PCM 192/24.

Transfer the file trough USB 2.0 to my Vaio SZ series laptop. I selected this 7-year old (used) model because it contains the now extinct Sound Reality audio hardware. It supposedly performs better than standard sound cards and audio interfaces. ( Does it really?)

Use the MC software to perform a digital RIAA equalization, preferably on the DSD stream. Incorporate in the filter other touch-ups, such as hf irregularities from the mismatch between the impedances of the cartridge/cabling and the Korg.

My questions are as follows.

1. Can I use the equalizer to implement the digital RIAA filter? I know the formulas and the math involved. I can also use the "MATHCAD" software to program the filter either in FFT or running in-place convolutions. Where can I find the equalizer settings?

2 Can the equalized files be transferred back to the Korg for direct playback from its memory card?

3. I plan to clean possible ticks and pops before the RIAA eq, where they can be better distinguished from true signals. Does MC have such a facility or will I have to construct my own interpolation algorithms?

If I succeed in creating my planned program, I will make it available , that is if anybody is interested...

Thanks in advance, Eli.

[NickF]

Hi Eli and welcome to Interact.

This is an interesting proposal, full of complex challenges!  One thing to think seriously about is that the output from your cartridge is very low level.  I couldn't see any signal to noise info on the Korg MR-2.

Why do you feel it is better to record the cartridge output without equalisation, rather than using a good quality, pre-amp with RIAA already implemented and using a line out into an A to D converter?

Why would you want to play back from the Korg rather than hold the files in the MC Library and play from there through MC?

I can't advise on your other questions but will watch with interest.

Nick.

[kerenlaser]

Thanks Nick for your prompt reply.

My interest arose when I read about Channel D's Pure-Vinyl software package. You may read about the advantages of digital RIAA EQ in their site, in particular the click/pop feature,   http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/. It is fairly simple to understand if you realize that the inverse RIAA curve used in record production pre-emphasizes high frequencies. The clicks are reproduced without this process, hence they are clearly visible above the sound signal. A phono preamp sort of integrates (almost) the input signal, producing a smeared version of the input, which is what you want it to do. Thus the original sharp transient of the click broadens in time with a sizable reduction in amplitude. It is bettter to detect in in its original form.

Problem is that Pure Vinyl exists only for MAC platforms, and I have already invested in my "music computer", the VAIO. So I thought I may use my-decades long experience in mathematical physics to create the core of the necessary filter. If I manage to do it in DSD (certainly questionable), the program has the potential of bettering the pure-vinyl Mac version result. Of course I will not have the cool user interface and endless options of pure vinyl, but I will have full control of every aspect of the resulting frequency and phase responses.

Please note that the major talked about drawback of DSD/64, namely high noise at ultrasonic frequencies, will be much less of a question in this version. The RIAA curve acts as a 6 db/octave low-pass filter above 20 khz, so that noise will be much lower even before DSD DAC filters come into play. In other words, I can use an LP filter, which is milder than the ones used in SACD playback.

The Korg can record and play without being connected to a computer using batteries and SD cards, nothing is moving. Can you think of a more silent environment?

Regards, Eli.

[NickF]

The clicks are reproduced without this process, hence they are clearly visible above the sound signal. A phono preamp sort of integrates (almost) the input signal, producing a smeared version of the input, which is what you want it to do. Thus the original sharp transient of the click broadens in time with a sizable reduction in amplitude. It is bettter to detect in in its original form.

OK, I understand.

The Korg can record and play without being connected to a computer using batteries and SD cards, nothing is moving. Can you think of a more silent environment?

I meant electrical induced noise relative to the signal.  Probably not an issue for the Korg as it is working at mic level anyway and seems a quality piece of equipment.  I don't know what ADC it uses.

I hope there will be others here who can help with setting up the RIAA curve.  Matt is a real audio enthusiast so he may chip in.

Nick.

[kerenlaser]

I forgot to mention that the Korg has an analog line stereo input, as well as an amplified input for an external microphone, with nominal and maximum levels of  -39 and -27 dBV, respectively. The Shure provides 3 mV at 1 cm/sec of stylus motion, and I suppose I will have to connect it as if it were a mike. If this does not work I might use my ancient Dyna PAS 3X valve preamp's line (not phono!) input. The Dyna also has a "special" input, whose impedance and frequency response can be tweaked. Unfortunately I am a theoretician, and the prospects of using a soldering iron scares me.

Eli

[NickF]

Line input will be far too insensitive for the cartridge output.  Mic input will be much closer in terms of sensitivity.  I think mic input will also be flat in terms of frequency response.  It is probably worth an email to Korg to confirm.  That should avoid the need for the soldering iron!

Nick.

[Jonahsdad]

The normal way to approach this would be to use the Korg as a USB sound card, to do ADC and then for playback DAC.  I don't think you need utilize the laptops built in sound.

MC is a great program for organizing and playing back your recordings.  But while it can do recording, there are more powerful and flexible options out there.  I use Audacity, which is free. 

Audacity has RIAA equalization built in.  It may even be possible to take an equalized signal out of a phono preamp, unequalize it, manipulate it (click removal), then reequalize it.  I'm not recommending this - it may or may not be a good thing to do, but it could be done.

I like the idea of doing click repair on an unequalized signal. 

The Korg at $500 or so with DSD and 24/192 recording looks like a great deal. 

[kerenlaser]

Thank you both for your input.

I will try the mic input or use a flat preamp, and see which one is better.

I looked at Audacity, and it seems it work normally up to 96 samples/sec. They also write: "Any other sample rates supported by the sound card will also be included in the list." I suppose not all functions are available. No mention of DSD.

I prefer working with MC, heralded as one of the more musical programs. DSD is converted to 352.8 kHz / 64 bits, perfect for manipulations with Mathcad. I want to use a test record having square wave bands, such as CBS STR-112. Anyone knows where I can find one?

The idea is to lump all response changes into one digital filter. This will include RIAA, impedance mismatch and other possible frequency and phase response anomalies. The filter coefficients will be optimized toward the fastest square-wave rise-time, subject to the constraint of no overshoot or ringing. I hope this can be achieved with the MC equalizers, otherwise I will calculate my own. It will be fun either way.

[Vocalpoint]

1. Can I use the equalizer to implement the digital RIAA filter?

2 Can the equalized files be transferred back to the Korg for direct playback from its memory card?

3. I plan to clean possible ticks and pops before the RIAA eq, where they can be better distinguished from true signals. Does MC have such a facility or will I have to construct my own interpolation algorithms?

If I succeed in creating my planned program, I will make it available , that is if anybody is interested...

Thanks in advance, Eli.

Eli,

For vinyl transfer work - I think you are over-complicating your process a bit

When transferring vinyl to digital - it's exactly like making a cassette dub of a favorite LP back in the day. It's just that instead of recording to a cassette deck - you record to a high quality portable digital recorder or actual professional grade PC sound card. Basically - you set the LP playing and record the audio coming from your phono preamp. This preamp is key (and is missing from your plan)- if you want this to go as easy as possible - you need a phono preamp to bring the tiny level from the TT stylus up to line level and more importantly apply the proper RIAA filter to the output. Resulting in a playable file as soon as it's transferred. Post processing is generally required to fix up the fades, clicks, pops and other minutia that are all part of the vinyl transfer process.

Couple comments on your questions....

1. The "RIAA EQ curve" will be included in your transfer to digital. When you record the audio stream from your TT, the resultant file will require no additional EQ

2. I am not aware of any commercially available hardware or software that will record DSD and I would not bother with 192/24. 24/96 is the usual standard for high quality vinyl rips

3. MC is used for tagging/playback of the end product only. You will need an audio editor and declicking software to make this work...

For my vinyl restoration workflow - I use the following:

Hardware (Capture/Transfer)

1. Technics SL-1210 M5G turntable with Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge
2. Musical Surroundings Phonomena II Phono Preamp
2. Tascam DR-100 Digital Recorder @ 96 kHz/24-bit

Software (Edit/Processing)

1. Steinberg Wavelab 7.21 (Edit Environment)
2. ClickRepair 3.4x (Click removal)
3. IzoTope RX 2 (Audio Restoration)
4. EZCD Extractor Pro (Creating FLAC from edited WAV files)
5. Media Center 17 - Playback and Tagging

Cheers!

VP

[kerenlaser]

Thanks VP.

Of course I did not invent the process I have outlined. If you read the Stereophile review of "Pure Music" for the MAC http://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/pure_vinyl_lp_recording_amp_editing_software/
you will see a comparison between pre and post RIAA digitization. The conclusion is that you need a hi-end phono preamp to better the accurate RIAA curve of "PM". The price is way above my budget.

Eventually I might end up with 92/24 for storage, but I want to have the option of working with higher resolutions, especially at the intermediate stages. My ears might tell my how far I need to go with the numbers.

Eli

[Vocalpoint]

The price is way above my budget.

Yes - I read that article a while back and know of the app - but for me - a standalone high end "real" phono pre is a requirement (not an option) for any vinyl enjoyment (not just ripping). And any decent standalone hardware unit will almost always sound better than anything that can be done in software. There are no shortcuts cash wise for good vinyl transfer

Eventually I might end up with 92/24 for storage, but I want to have the option of working with higher resolutions, especially at the intermediate stages. My ears might tell my how far I need to go with the numbers.

Still - unless you are working with a true standout turntable, multi-thousand dollar cartridge, the very best vinyl source possible, high end vacuum system for cleaning and state of the art phono stage and ADDA convertor (which the Korg does not have) - going to 192/24/DSD etc is simply not worth the effort nor the power required to edit/process. Not only will the files be enormouse to process - I know of no editor that can cut native DSD and you will have to spend to get yourself into a decent editor for 24/192 (Wavelab/Soundforge) to handle that sample/bit rate.

Bottom line for me - it's vinyl. No matter how good you think it will be - there is a built in limit as to how good it can ever be.

Good luck with the journey.

VP

[lepa]

Interesting project. I tend to agree with VP about the phono pre but of course how it sounds to you is all that matters in the end.

My own workflow is
1. Vacuum clean LP
2. Record with AT33PTG -> Juli@ -> Audition @192/24bit
3. Resample with sox to 96/24 for editing (supposedly giving smoother result than recording straight to 96/24)
4. In some cases ClickRepair with very low settings (some times in manual mode)
5. Remove any remaining clicks in Auditions spectral view.
6. Tidying passage noises
7. Saving as a flac 96/24, tagging and making a lossy copy for listening casually.

Most crucial and time saving points for me are to clean LP properly, choosing cartridge which can track well and of course having preamp with low noise.

Looking forward to hear how your project progress kerenlaser. For me a well made vinyl transfer beats the modern mastered (brickwalled) CD version many times. Of course it isn't mediums fault though.

[mbagge]

Besides all the technical stuff, I think when investing so much work in the lp's, you should consider a tool like alphinesoft vinylstudio and the discogs database as a big helping hand when it comes to splitting and tagging the individual songs after recording entire lp's.
They helped me a lot when I recorded 200 lp's.

[kerenlaser]

Just to clarify things, I have a LINN LP12 with one of the speed-control modules. I bought it used with a high mass arm equipped with a Decca cartridge, and I could not make it work properly (my fault, surely). I replaced it with my old Grace 707 low-mass arm and V15VMR cartridge, one of the best trackers out there. The 3mV output should be enough for the amplified mic input of the Korg, otherwise I will use a flat line preamp for gain boost.

Following steps:

1.  Record a DSD file and transfer it to the VAIO laptop.

2.  Use MC to convert it to 352.8 / 64  PCM.

3.  Perform RIAA EQ using the MC equalizer or my own programs. These programs I wrote produce good results with low noise on synthetic signals. I want to reemphasize a strong point here concerning the high frequency noise associated with noise-shaped DSD signals. The RIAA filter reduces the noise by about 10 db.

4.  Down-sample to 176.4/32 or lower resolutions to see which format is sufficient for my ears. I hope the 30 khz low-pass filter mentioned in the manual can be replaced with a milder one.

5.  Transfer the file to an external hard disk for storage.

6.  Play the file using MC from the hard disk, or transfer it as PCM to the Korg SDHC memory for playback.

Please let me know if you see any problems in the above.

Thanks, Eli.

[Vocalpoint]

2.  Use MC to convert it to 352.8 / 64  PCM.

Please let me know if you see any problems in the above.

Couple of potential things that I see...

1. Outside of super high end audio apps such as Sadie/Pyramix with hardware like Weiss/Saracon - I am fairly certain that MC can't actually "convert" any sort of DSD data whatsoever. I mean - we just got basic playback of said DSD files in MC very recently.

2. Assigning any usable "metadata" to any sort of PCM file is not really feasible. If tagging is important to you - you might consider a much more robust format like FLAC etc. Otherwise - your files will have no data indicating what track, artist etc. Especially if you plan on moving them around between different playback devices/apps.

3 I still have no idea how you plan to edit DSD audio files on that laptop if MC can't work with them.

Cheers,

VP

[kerenlaser]

Thanks VP.

1. Maybe I misunderstood the following paragraph from the "DSD Format" page in the MC manual.

"By default, DSD will be converted to PCM for playback.

The DSD to PCM conversion process converts from 1-bit DSD to 64-bit PCM at 1/8th of the sample rate. The total amount of data from this conversion grows by 8x, so the process is effectively lossless / perfect.

Once you have PCM, it will be 64bit @ 352.8 kHz for DSD, and 64bit @ 705.6 kHz for DSD 2x."

Does it mean this PCM is available only for playback, not for processing, saving to memory or HD?

2.  I must confess I have not paid much attention to the archiving process. I suppose that when I get there I will do what you suggest or similar. Maybe the Audiogate program that comes with the Korg wil be of help there.

3. I gave up on editing in DSD. Like I wrote earlier, I plan to clean and equalize the 352.8/ 64 PCM file, assuming Item 1 above works as I thought it would. I will not get back to DSD once I have a good hi-res PCM.

BTW, excuse my English syntax, it is not my native language.

Regards, Eli.

[Vocalpoint]

"By default, DSD will be converted to PCM for playback. Does it mean this PCM is available only for playback, not for processing, saving to memory or HD?

Correct. I believe all you get is:

1. Load DSD file from SACD rip or what have you via MC
2. MC can now only play that file - converting the DSD data internally "on the fly" to a PCM stream that goes to your speakers

You cannot:

1. Right click on DSD file and choose Convert Format

Considering the few selected apps that can actually "really" convert a DSD file to PCM cost thousands of dollars - I would not expect our 49 dollar wonder to do the same.

While your plan sounds awesome - the cost of the tech you will need to work with DSD etc is simply not worth it for any vinyl transfer. If it were me - just get a nice standalone phono pre , get that Linn rocking and shoot for standard high res (24/96 or whatever) wav files that you can edit easily in a variety of packages and enjoy.

VP

[kerenlaser]

Got it.

I guess I can still enjoy the digital RIAA advantage without taking the DSD detour. The Korg (and other good ADC's) can record 192/24 files, I hope MC can manipulate these, right?

I think that HQPlayer (135 USD) has all the functions I need for DSD. I will take a look.

Thanks indeed for your help.

Eli

[Vocalpoint]

The Korg (and other good ADC's) can record 192/24 files, I hope MC can manipulate these, right?

I still wouldn't use MC to "manipulate" any of your raw capture files. While MC does have a very simplistic audio editor - it does not have (to my knowledge) any high quality dithering, resampling, spectral editing, pop/click/noise reduction/fades/ etc - all key editing elements for properly processing your final file set.

Any vinyl rip I do always ends up in iZotope RX first followed by Wavelab - where I can cut, treat and fine tune the entire raw album side captured from the Tascam - to ultimately create the identical FLAC format (separate heavily tagged tracks) as would result from MC ripping a CD.

MC is playback only and would never get a second thought for any editing capability (outside of file tagging). If you want any reasonable capability to "shape" your captures into usable files - you will need a decent editor of some kind. Unless perhaps - you actually want to listen to an totally untreated, click filled LP capture file as you would hear it from the turntable?

However - if that's the case - I would just play the LP when the mood strikes rather than bother with ripping it

VP

[kerenlaser]

Thank you, VP for your detailed answer. I misinterpreted what I read in the site.

Still, I guess I will use MC for what it does best, according to the TAS series of articles on computer music.

I wish you continued success with your excellent program.

Eli

[jimmy neutron]

This is a great and very informative thread. Reading this has perked my interest in transferring some of my vinyl onto the PC at higher resolutions....namely at 24/96. The problem is that while I understand the process, and especially the great read and explanation by VP, I don't have any of the software to accomplish this. Here is what I have, and please tell me what else I need (both software and hardware) to accomplish the transfers. I have a Denon DP-62L turntable with a DL-103r, a Cambridge Audio 640p phono pre amp, and a Dell dual core laptop with 4 gigs ram. I also have a Digidesign Mbox 2 external USB mic mixer / DAC with ProTools LE software. The Mbox 2 has analog inputs and a 24/48 sampling rate with digital coax inputs and outputs. I don't know if i can use this to get my turntables analog signal into the PC, then clean and upsample to a higher rez with other software?

BTW, I don't want to derail Eli's thread with my wants, but since we want to accomplish basically the same thing I thought whatever information is given to him I could also follow.

Thanks.

Jimmy

[lepa]

I have a Denon DP-62L turntable with a DL-103r, a Cambridge Audio 640p phono pre amp, and a Dell dual core laptop with 4 gigs ram. What else do I need?

A good USB "soundcard".
With SW you've got plenty of choices: expensive, cheap and even free. The most popular choices to record vinyl in my experience are: free Audacity, Adobe Audition and Wavelab. To declick many use ClickRepair (great value for money at circa 35$) and/or Audation's restoration plugins.
If you got the money then iZotope RX advanced has good filters for almost everything you need.

After editing I use Foobar2000 with discogs plugin to automaticaly tag with right pressing information and then naturally you need MC to enjoy the final result 

[Vocalpoint]

Here is what I have, and please tell me what else I need (both software and hardware) to accomplish the transfers.

Jimmy,

By the look of the M-Box...all you need is an quality RCA cable running from the outputs of the Cambridge to the analog inputs of the M-Box. You may need to look around at say Monoprice or similar since you will need a cable with good RCA plugs on one end (From Cambridge) to 1/4 inch plugs (Analog in) - on the M-Box...and as long as the M-Box is correctly connected via USB to the lappy - you should be good to go.

Now while you could capture right into Pro-tools LE if you had to - if you are serious about doing some quality ripping - invest in a decent editor...even Audacity will get you moving in the right direction for no money at all. This may be your solid starting point.

For post-processing - while iZoTope RX is king of the heap for audio repair etc- it's not cheap - so I would also strongly consider giving the dev guys at Clickrepair your 35 bucks or so to at least be able to clean up your transfers a tad.

Have fun!

VP

[Krazykanuck]

I went through this a few years ago when I started converting my vinyl collection.

You want a flat preamp. Many things can affect how the RIAA curve is applied in the electronics so software is better.
My opinion after lots of reading. Could I tell if it was applied properly or not. Doubt it but wanted to make sure I was doing the best job I could.

There are lots of software solutions after you have the files on your computer for processing.
Depends on how much effort you want to put into the project and how much you want to spend.
Also depends on the condition of your vinyl. The more you spend the more features you get and the better your chances of saving that piece of vinyl that went to one too many parties.

My setup is a Grado gold cartridge --> Terretec DMX 6-fire audio card (has built in flat preamp with defeatable RIAA curve) -->  Diamond cut software.

Over the last few years I've managed to convert about 350 albums, still have a few hundred to go. Taking my time,enjoying the music.

[jimmy neutron]

Thanks for the replies. I went ahead and bought izotopes RX2 Advanced software. It seems to be the one most recommended. This morning I started to put my little system together. Instead of my Denon DP-62L turntable I will be using my Yamaha PX-3 turntable with Denon DL-160 MC cart and Cambridge Audio 640p phono pre amp. I'm a huge audiophile and I have no shortage of quality gear. I believe the CA 640p pre will do a great job at RIAA, then as was mentioned I will take the signal from the 640p and shoot it into the Mbox2's input. I already have some nice AudioQuest cables (my cables of choice) and the 1/4" to RCA adaptors. The only thing that I am unsure of is will the RX2 Advanced software allow me to digitize my music at 24/96? The izotopes wiki manual is pretty large and I've not broken but a few pages. Today will be a busy day for me and I don't think I'll be able to spend much time on it.

So the setup is as follows: 1000 albums > vacuum wash/clean > Yamaha PX-3 / Denon DL-160 mc > Cambridge Audio 640p phono pre amp > Mbox2 > USB input on Dell laptop > izotope RX2 Advanced software. Is this correct? Any other software that I may need? My only concern at this point is digitizing my albums at 24/96 and if the RX2 Adv can do that.

Thanks again for the help.

Jimmy

[Vocalpoint]

The only thing that I am unsure of is will the RX2 Advanced software allow me to digitize my music at 24/96?

No. RX is a post processing environment - designed for bringing previously created files in - to be worked on. You will record the transfer from the M-Box into ProTools SE or Audacity or whatever audio app you want to use for that purpose. In my case - I actually use my Tascam DR-100 to record the raw vinyl @ 24/96 and then bring these resultant files thru ClickRepair, IzoTope RX and finally Wavelab to create the separate WAV tracks to be converted to FLAC for playback.

So you need a audio recording environment to "capture" the action be it software (Soundforge, Cubase, Pro Tools etc etc ) or hardware like I am using.

VP

[jimmy neutron]

Hmmmm, ok. So I use my Mbox 2 to capture it and bring it into my PC, at which point I will use a program (not RX2 Advanced) to digitize the "entire" record in one large file in 24/96. Then I will save it in a format like WAV or FLAC (I presume) and then open RX2 Advanced to do any cleaning, filtering, etc. in the resolution that I previously saved it in (24/96). So then, If I'm understanding this correctly, I still need another program to cut the large record file into their indevidual tracks and tag them because RX2 Advanced does not do this? Wow, I just spent $1300.00 on a program that I thought was all I needed to do this, but now I need more programs? Not looking good so far   

Jimmy

[Krazykanuck]

Why would you want to digitize the recording before you have cleaned it up?

I'm not saying I know any better but I always thought it was better to stay in the analog domain until the last step.

[jimmy neutron]

Well. I don't know much about this either except what I've read, but I'm guessing you first clean the LP "physically" by washing it then vacuum it. Then you would send it into the Mbox2. At this point it's already digital. My question is that once it's digital, ie brought into the PC thru the Mbox2 and into iZotopes RX2 Advanced software, when do you upsample it to your desired rate? Do you use RX2 advanced before or after you upsample it to your target rate? I'm assuming you would upsample it first - get it to 24/96. Then you apply the fixes, clean it, tag it. Then when all that is done you save convert it into your format of choice. In my case I will do FLAC at 24/96 resolution. If I'm missing something here please let me know.

Jimmy

[Vocalpoint]

Hmmmm, ok. So I use my Mbox 2 to capture it and bring it into my PC, at which point I will use a program (not RX2 Advanced) to digitize the "entire" record in one large file in 24/96. Then I will save it in a format like WAV or FLAC (I presume) and then open RX2 Advanced to do any cleaning, filtering, etc. in the resolution that I previously saved it in (24/96).

Correct. Here again is my "abbreviated" workflow

First and foremost - 10 minute vacuum routine via my VPI 16.5 cleaner for each side. Then....

1. Record each side of the LP via Technics 1210M5G->Phonomena->Tascam DR-100 (@ 24/96 resolution)
2. Transfer the two large 24/96 files to PC
3. Run each file thru Clickrepair with very specific settings
4. Open each file in iZoTope RX to assign markers, apply fades, do spectral repair and remove subsonics (low end rumble etc using parametric EQ etc)
5. Open each file in Wavelab 7.21 and perform pan normalization (channel balance), DC offset removal and peak level normalization
6. Using markers created in Step 4 - use Auto Split in Wavelab (Batch Processor) to create individual wave files from the two large "Side" captures (Step #1)
7. Use EZCD Extractor to load, tag and convert the wavs created in Step 6 to FLAC for playback in Media Center.

RE: Never "upsample"...only downsample if necessary. I do all my capture, edits, processing etc ALL at the original 24/96 resolution. I don't create "redbook" (16/44.1 CD quality) files since I play the 24/96's right from MC. And I do not burn to CD. The only sample change would be to create MP3 for mobile use - and that would be via MC - simply doing Convert Format from my master 24/96 files.

As mentioned - definitely not a cheap hobby - if you want decent transfers that sound comparable to your other digital files.

VP

[jimmy neutron]

No, not cheap at all!    But still a fun way to pass the day. I've never digitzed my albums because I already have all of them in 16/44.1 redbook files or HDtrack versions. But I'd like to experiment - just for fun, and for the sake of our hobby - and also have vinyl versions to my catalog. I know that each version will represent a different and unique sound all of their own. This is something I am quite enjoying.

I have changed my system, yet again, to what will now be my transfer station. Please let me know what you think before I invest any more into this expensive game:

Dell Dimension E310 tower Pentium 4 2.8 ghz with 4 gig ram, 500 gig internal hard drive, Windows XP (because the PC is so old), Mbox2, Cambridge Audio 640p phono pre, Yamaha PX-3 turntable, Denon DL-160 MC cart, iZotope RX2 advance software, Audacity. Will this be a good enough transfer station for specifically transferring my LP's to my hard drive in 24/96 resolutions? Any other software that I would need?

Jimmy

[jimmy neutron]

In addition to my sizable purchase of iZotope RX2 Advanced, I also purchaced Wavelab 7.2.1, and EZ CD Extractor. I *think* these are all the programs I need? God, I hope so. My PayPal account is nearly empty.    I played around with iZotope RX2 a bit today - man, what a learning curve I'm gonna need. Between Wavelab and RX2 this is gonna be a wild ride!!

I added a Soundblaster X-Fi Xtreme Music PCI soundcard to the computer. My thought process is as follows: I'll bring the analog signal from the Yamaha PX-3 turntable - after it's been RIAA EQ'd by the Cambridge Audio 640p phono pre amp - and send it into the Mbox2 where it will get digitized and sent to the PC over the USB 2.0 connection. At this point I'll use a combination of RX2, Wavelab, and EZ CD Extractor software to fix, clean, tag, split, and save the 2 large "per side" chunks into their individual tracks and convert them to 24/96 resolution FLAC files. I can monitor the "pre" files thru my AKG 701 headphones thru the Mbox 2's headphone monitor, and monitor the final output with the playback thru my Soundblaster X-Fi Xtreme Music card's analog or digital output to my stereo (just a small Denon reciever for this project only). Last I can save them in my library for playback. Am I right here? Or am I missing something?

I really like this soundcard. The analog is nice and fat, albeit a bit exaggerrated. But still nice sounding and very clean. I'll be connecting the analog output of the card to a Denon reciever I have laying around, for monitoring only. I can also use the soundcard's digital output if I choose to, or if needed. I have a pair of Infinity Modulas 3 - piece speaker system (from the 80's, not the new crap...the real black laquer ones with the ribbon EMIT tweeters). These should provide a nice and far out high end. I also have a 1 terrabyte external hard drive for the system files if they get too large.

Anything else?

Jimmy

[Vocalpoint]

Well - considering your substantial outlay already - if it were me - I would be using the SPDIF out from the M-Box to the input on the Denon for any monitoring and and get that Soundblaster out of the picture as soon as possible. The M-Box internals will far exceed the quality of any Soundblaster card and you should be using an all digital path for playback of your new rips.

Other than that - you are truly all set now. Welcome to the jungle

VP

[jimmy neutron]

Thanks VP.      I'm truely enjoying it so far.

The reason I have the Soundblaster card is because (currently) my Denon receiver which I'm using for monitoring is a streak only - no digital inputs. This particular Soundblaster is one of their better units in their line. I know SB is no where in the same leaque as an external unit, but this one sounds very clean, if only temporary. Also, it has a dedicated digital input and output that I may find useful at some point? There are also some mods that can be done to replace the opamps on the card. But yes, you are correct. I will want to remove it from the chain altogether. But right now I must let my wallet rest. I still have no dedicated furniture to place the equipment on!  I will be looking for a new desk, on some other smaller pieces of gear, this weekend. Until then my "vinyl to PC transfer rig" sits on a small table in our upstairs gameroom.

I did a test run today - ripping Pink Floyd's DSOTM. Although I will need to make quite a few more test runs before I'm fully comfortable with all the controls and features, the outcome was very nice......very nice indeed. Thank you for your direction in all this.

Jimmy

[jimmy neutron]

Just an update on this journey. So far my rips are hit and miss, and I believe it may the due to the Mbox 2. Seems the inputs on the Mbox 2 are very sensitive to the Yamaha PX-3/Denon DL-160's output that it will distort the signal at the input. No way to turn the level down low enough. All the level controls on the Mbox 2 are at their lowest and I'm still running into peaks occassionaly. I tried various combinations of the gear with the Cambridge Audio 640p pre amp, MC input, MM input...but no avail. Also, the Mbox 2 tops out at 24/48. I want to do at minimum 24/96, so I guess I'm going to have to start looking for a new ADC. Since this is the "main" piece I would like suggesstions. In the $500.00 range what would be a good quality USB Analog to Digital converter with 24/96 capability? I'd like one with at least 2 analog inputs for both my turntable and Technics RS-1520 reel to reel. SPDIF outputs would also be nice, as well as inputs too would be a bonus. Basically, just like my Mbox 2 but with higher resolutions. I'd like it to be ASIO freindly in Windows XP and Windows 7.

Jimmy

[kerenlaser]

I think you should consider the Korg MR2 mentioned many times in this thread. It is an ADC as well as a DAC, works in many formats, including PCM up to 192/24. Look in particular at Jonahsdads post up the thread.

The price is 499 USD  on ebay, as well as B&H:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/706462-REG/Korg_MR_2_MR_2_1_Bit_Hand_Held_Digital.html

I do not know how its sound quality compares with other ADC options, but I presume that storing the file on the HD card may save you some jitter-prone interconnections along the way. The SD card appears as an external USB HD drive, and if the format suits you, you may simply use copy and paste to your storage device. Then I suppose you can use MC to organize the library.

I wonder what the experts have to say about this feature.

Eli

[jimmy neutron]

OK, he :Dre's a question that I would like a honest and unbiased answer to. Please understand the very nature and mechanics involved here.

I want to import ONLY my album collection into my PC for archiving using the already discussed software, and I want the input format to be only 24/96. The signal will be from a Denon DP-62L turntable and Denon DL-160 moving coil cart (yes, I changed my mind yet again from my Yamaha PX-3), running into my Cambridge Audio 640p outboard phono pre amp. My record collection is mostly rock and all lp's are in excellent condition. Now, given the limitations in the vinyl format itself do I really want or need an ADC such as the Tascam or Korg? I know I would love to have something like a Benchmark, but do I really need one? Let's say I want to use the aforementioned Soundblaster X-fi Music Extreme soundcard to capture my vinyl. This card is a very nice card and has been tested by many sites and all agree about it's sonic virtues. Please hold your bias's about the card for a second. I only need to input a vinyl lp's signal, nothing more. The X-fi can easily do 24/96 on it's analog inputs. Once it's captured it's the job of the software to do the magic, right? Again, I'd love to own something like a Tascam and such but I feel I would be totally under using the machine. So realistically can/will a soundcard such as this X-fi handle the sole job of importing the LP into the PC? I should add that in my setup this particular PC I built is to be used only for importing my lp's and cleaning, tagging, and converting to 24/96 files which will then be transferred over to my main library. All monitoring will be done using my AKG 601 headphones and Little Dot tube mkIII headphone amp connected to the X-fi analog outputs.

I know many are saying "here he goes again with that soundcard", but I'm really curious here. We all want the best gear for the job, but the reality usually is different....much different. Given the source, how much of a difference can there actually be when comparing the Soundblaster sound card to the Tascam unit? Not in flexibility, or in lower noise, or greater dynamic range. We know that the Tascam is better in all those regards. But comparing just the analog inputs with capturing lp's. Please leave all bias's at the door.

I think the days of having a room full of hardware for capturing a signal and inputting it into your PC are long gone. I think that the miniaturization of powerful DSP chips now makes it possible to do today in smaller and less packages what just a few years ago we needed mixers, amplifiers, gates, etc. to accomplish.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jimmy

[Vocalpoint]

Given the source, how much of a difference can there actually be when comparing the Soundblaster sound card to the Tascam unit? Not in flexibility, or in lower noise, or greater dynamic range. We know that the Tascam is better in all those regards. But comparing just the analog inputs with capturing lp's.

This all comes down to what "you" want. No bias or anything else. And in your case - truly considering the source - which is the only real factor here - I wouldn't spend a fortune on the ADC. Given your turntable and cart - what you have right now is going to be just fine to work with.

Now - in my experience - getting a really incredible capture from vinyl is more about the turntable, cart and phono stage rather than what's happening at the other end of the equation. And truth be told - I selected the Tascam simply because my studio PC is in another room! I picked it only because it's portable and sounds really really good.

But make no mistake - top shelf vinyl ripping starts and ends with the "front end" analog side of the equation: The very best source material (very clean, very quiet vinyl) played on a well maintained, "isolated" turntable (this could very well be the most important factor) using a perfectly matched arm and cartridge and of course - a professional level phono stage. After that signal crosses to the digital domain - whether via Tascam or a Soundblaster - I think the end results are already well established - especially @ 24/96.

What's the ole saying - garbage in = garbage out? Never more true than in this particular process.

Cheers,

VP

[jimmy neutron]

You are abslolutely correct VP. It does start at the source - the turntable, cart, and phono pre must be the best source. This is why I have my Technics 1210mkIII sitting in my closet ( DJ turntables have that "sound"...just never could get into them), and moving magnet carts? Owned them, never again. Moving Coils are definetly the way to a better soundstage and lower noise. But I think my Cambridge Audio 640p, although highly rated and comparable to units costing 3 times as much (at least that's what Stereophool, and thier sister zombie magazines have said) still leaves a bit to be desired. Which is why I chose my Denon DP-62L turntable - a great audiophile turntable if there ever was one. No Rega plastic or acrylic here!   , and the Denon MC carts? Man, absolutely gorgeous soundstage! (I'm having my main cart, a Sumiko Blackbird, getting retipped at their factory). If I still listened to vinyl like I did in the past I would probably buy the Avid Pulsare. When I heard this phono stage a few months back I was blown away.    Simply beautiful and worth every cent...or 600.000 of them   . I have owned the VPI 16.5 and 17 cleaners, but they could never get enough of the record clean as I wanted, that plus the number of steps were atrocious. I just designed and built my own fully automatic washer/scrubber/vacuum cleaner. More powerful than the VPI and produces a quieter record. So I got that base covered. But I do have a reservation about the ADC. I've been searching the net for a proper ADC - specifically a Tascam like yours. While I don't need the portability and prefer a desktop unit, the price is still decent as this will be my last purchase for anything analog related. I have read on a few occassions that although the Tascam unit will record in true 24/96 onto the SD card, you cannot stream 24/96 from the unit to the PC over the USB. Is this true? Something about the specific USB chip used in this model - USB 1.1 protocol. My intentions are to just hook it up on my desk and leave it connected to my phono's outputs and to the PC's USB input, and just send the LP's analog signal into the Tascam for sampling to 24/96 and then sending it ( or streaming it ) to the PC for processing (not storing it on the SD card and then taking the card out of the unit and to the PC). Have you attempted this? Can you verify if the Tascam can stream a full 24/96 file over USB?

Thanks in advance.  

Jimmy