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Author Topic: SageTV vs JRMC17  (Read 18707 times)

texneus

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SageTV vs JRMC17
« on: April 08, 2012, 02:40:47 pm »

Hello SageTV refugees!  I've been researching JR MC for the past few days as a possible replacement for SageTV.  This summer I plan on rebuilding my HTPC so it would be a logical time to transition.  I looked at JR MC when I moved from WMC (which was a replacement for ReplayTV) to SageTV, but back then it lacked any sort of TV functionality.  Although JR MC's media capabilities are impressive, solid PVR functionality is an absolute must for my needs.

I see they have added some sort of at least basic DVR functionality a rev or two back, but they're pretty quiet about it on the home page, saying only "You can use the Electronic Program Guide (EPG) to watch live TV or to record or subscribe to your favorite programs."  I don't understand why media centers don't push their DVR functionality harder, as IMO this should be a core function of any HTPC.  Is this a basic timer based DVR?  Or a full fledged intelligent PVR?  There is a large and continuous spectrum in between, and you can't tell where JR MC sits from this one line description.  FWIW, WMC and SageTV where the same way.


So, how does the DVR/PVR functionality compare to SageTV?  Specific features that are a must:

1.  Are recordings title based?  e.g., do I choose to record Bones and it records whatever time it might air at, or do I create a timer that records Mondays from 8:00-9:00pm on Channel 4?  If title based, are any additional filters available, such as record first runs only from specific channels (so I don't get all the repeat airings on every cable channel in existence?)

2. Does JR MC employ any conflict resolution logic?  So for example if another program needs to record while Bones is recording, will JR MC automatically reschedule the recording for the next available airing?

3. Can favorite recordings be created (or I guess "subscribed" in JR MC lingo?) based on Genre and Actors?  For instance, I can I set a favorite recording to record all Sci-Fi movies or all movies staring Cary Grant?  And will it differentiate between Movies and TV shows?

4. Can I also search by Movies by actors, genres, or keywords/wild cards to manually record select future airings that appear interesting?

5. Is it possible to schedule recordings for shows not currently on the EPG?  For example, to record a specific movie or a no longer aired TV series when it starts broadcasting at some indeterminate date/time.


If JR MC can answer yes to those five questions, you've got my attention!
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JimH

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 04:00:12 pm »

You might read opy01's posts here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71304.msg481597#msg481597

and nwboater's posts here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=68026.msg457578#msg457578

1.  You can record either way.  A recent build added the rerun feature.
2.  Yes.  You can set priorities.
3. & 4.  I don't know of a way to do this.  Once recorded, you could search by actor.
5.  I'm not sure.
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opy01

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 09:48:55 pm »

1.  Are recordings title based?  e.g., do I choose to record Bones and it records whatever time it might air at, or do I create a timer that records Mondays from 8:00-9:00pm on Channel 4?  If title based, are any additional filters available, such as record first runs only from specific channels (so I don't get all the repeat airings on every cable channel in existence?)

You can tell it to record "Bones" on ch 4 on Mondays at 7 pm if you want or you can record all showings at any time on any channel.  One feature that I read that will be coming soon is record only first runs.  There are multiple filtering options.

I have posted a request to be able to mark shows as watched to prevent already watched shows from being recorded.

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2. Does JR MC employ any conflict resolution logic?  So for example if another program needs to record while Bones is recording, will JR MC automatically reschedule the recording for the next available airing?

It does have a priority and if the show has not been recorded it should record in the future.  

Quote
5. Is it possible to schedule recordings for shows not currently on the EPG?  For example, to record a specific movie or a no longer aired TV series when it starts broadcasting at some indeterminate date/time.

I think if you type the name of the show according to IMDB you should be able to have it record.  I can test it if you want.  Post the name of a show that airs randomely and I'll create a favorite and see what it does.

Quote
If JR MC can answer yes to those five questions, you've got my attention!

As far as 3 and 4, I can play around but I am not fully familiar with the software.  I downloaded the free 30 day trial and loved it so I bought it.  My wife loves it so far.  They are also improving it alot as far as I've seen so you never know whats coming up :)
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nwboater

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 03:54:56 pm »

After trying TV in MC17 for a few months we have gone back to SageTV for Recording only (We rarely watch Live TV.). I was asked to post the reasons why in this thread. It should be borne in mind that we use the Hauppauge HDPVR as a tuner. In MC it is considered an 'Analog' tuner and I would expect the Hauppauge Colossus would also be. Being an Analog tuner it can only record in .jtv format, not .ts as we use in Sage. Some of the problems below are a function of the files being .jtv so will not apply to those with a 'Digital' tuner.

1. The biggest killer for us is not being able to use Comskip since it wont work on .jtv files. After a few years of using Sage we were very spoiled by not having to watch commercials. We watch mostly movies so having to skip commercials is a big break in the mood.  What we are doing now is to have Sage generate the .edl files for Comskip using the tmiranda 'Commercial Detector'  plugin. Then when we watch in MC it does a good job of skipping based on those .edl files.

2. We were not automatically getting art for our .jtv files recorded by the HDPVR. All we would get is a screen shot taken at some time early in the program. It's explained in this thread:  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=69580.0  When I record in Sage the .ts files are automatically imported into MC. We then have art without doing anything extra.

3. And if I recall we were also not getting descriptions of the shows. My wife also remembers the same issue. Again when recording .ts files in Sage we automatically get full descriptions without doing anything when the program is imported into MC.

4. I also recall that Movies were somehow picked up with the Media Sub Type of 'TV Show' instead of Movie. Thus in the main theater View listings they were not under Movies, but Shows instead.

5. The bulk of the recordings we make are Movies. In Theater View, but not that I can see in Standard View, the selections can be filtered by Genre. We need it filtered by Movies first, then the Genre of the Movie. So to select the movies to record in MC we have to wade through all the Shows under a particular Genre to find the movie we want to record. In Sage there is a plugin called 'Upcoming Movies'. It has incredible filtering power and of course only lists Movies.

6. In MC we could only schedule Movies in Theater View if we wanted any kind of Genre filtering. Again I don't see a way to get that filtering in Standard View. With SageTV my wife does all the scheduling from her desktop computer. There is a powerful plugin called 'SageTV Web Interface' that 'Upcoming Movies' integrates with. I also use it to monitor Sage on my Desktop. It also shows 'System Messages' so if there should be an HDPVR hiccup for instance I can see that, as well as monitoring disc space availability and any other system problems.

To be fair to MC I think it has something similar called Web Remote or Web Gizmo. Have never tried them, but wonder if we could do the kind of scheduling we need with them: ie filter by Movies, then Genre?

7. What recordings are scheduled? This information is only available in Standard View in MC. (Yet Genre's are only available in Theater View.) In Sage this is available in the User Interface as well as on the SageTV Web Interface that my wife schedules recordings with on her Desktop.

8. At the time we switched back to Sage for recording we were getting a lot of crashes in MC. At the same time we were getting a lot of missed and partial recordings. I thought these might have been cause by the crashes. Now I'm wondering if TV recording is run by the MC service so although the MC user interface crashed perhaps the Service was still running and the crash did not affect the recording. Would appreciate it if someone could comment on this. Sage has been rock solid for us and we don't seem to have any missed or partial recordings since switching back.

Again to be fair to MC a lot of the reasons for our crashes have been solved by JRiver. They have been very diligent in trying to fix those problems!


There may some other things that we presently prefer in Sage but I think I've listed the major ones.

At the time we switched to MC for TV I had hoped that many of the above issues would be taken care of by JRiver, and possibly some have been since we switched back to SageTV. I really do want to use MC for everything and not have this dual program setup. And of course we have no idea how long Sage will be usable since they have sold to Google and are no longer supporting the product. I look forward to the day when we can switch back to MC for TV recording.

Rod
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texneus

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 11:12:59 pm »

Appreciate the feedback!  Overall sounds intriguing.  Is there a user manual that can be downloaded to try and get some particulars?

JimH - What are the odds of seeing subscriptions based on genre and actors in a future release?

opy01 - If you want to try something, see if you can setup a subscription for a show called "China Beach".  This is a late 80's drama that has not re-appeared or been released on DVD (I'm told) because of licensing issues with the sound track.  It's been the number on priority favorite in Sage since we got it (and in WMC before that, and on ReplayTV before that...).  It is setup as a SageTV as a title keyword, no channel or time restrictions.  If you can setup JR MC similarly I will assume it would be successful at recording it.  While you're at it, could you see if you can create a favorite based on an actor??

I definitely will give JR MC a try but a 30 day trial is a bit limiting.  I evaluated SageTV over a period of 60 days then bought it on a leap of faith.  SageTV is complicated enough that it took several months to figure out all the nuances and get it operating smoothly (and truthfully I regretted purchasing more than once during this process).  I wouldn't expect JR to really be much different.  On top of that, i currently don't have a machine I can evaluate it on (well, for as long as SageTV keeps working).

nwboater - Interesting experience...what's most disappointing is the proprietary recorded TV format.  Is it possible to convert it to standard TS/MP4 without re-encoding?  The HUGE advantage of a Pea Sea based system is I can put shows on my laptop and/or phone to watch when traveling.  Having files locked up in a proprietary format eliminates that possibility.
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nwboater

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 11:27:53 pm »

nwboater - Interesting experience...what's most disappointing is the proprietary recorded TV format.  Is it possible to convert it to standard TS/MP4 without re-encoding?  The HUGE advantage of a Pea Sea based system is I can put shows on my laptop and/or phone to watch when traveling.  Having files locked up in a proprietary format eliminates that possibility.

What kind of tuner do you have? If it's considered a 'digital' tuner it probably already can record in ts format.  Hang in there a bit on the ts format problem if you have an HDPVR or Colossus - there's a chance something good might be happening.

Rod
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texneus

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 11:49:04 pm »

Colossus via an HD cable box (component & stereo audio...I have drift issues with the S/PDIF audio)
HD Home run w/1 tuner on OTA, second on QAM.
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opy01

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2012, 08:28:58 am »

opy01 - If you want to try something, see if you can setup a subscription for a show called "China Beach".  This is a late 80's drama that has not re-appeared or been released on DVD (I'm told) because of licensing issues with the sound track.  It's been the number on priority favorite in Sage since we got it (and in WMC before that, and on ReplayTV before that...).  It is setup as a SageTV as a title keyword, no channel or time restrictions.  If you can setup JR MC similarly I will assume it would be successful at recording it.  While you're at it, could you see if you can create a favorite based on an actor??

I did create a random subscription to a show then went in and named it China Beach and set it for all chanels and all time.  Two small issues, which I dont think will be a problem or may be easy to fix though, the name of the subscription still shows as the other show even though it's looking for "China Beach" and I don't see a way to manually create a subscription yet.  This may be a feature that is hidden somewhere but I just don't see.

I don't see any way to search for actor :( .  Of course that doesn't mean it wont be around in the future or someone could make a plugin.

I ran MC in parallel with Sage for several Days then just pulled the trigger.  I was building a new machine anyways and didn't even want to mess with reinstalling Sage.
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texneus

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2012, 11:02:30 am »

opy01 - Thank you for the test!  Much appreciated!
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opy01

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Re: SageTV vs JRMC17
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 08:57:26 am »

It was my pleasure ;) .  I have fun messing with this stuff. 

I am truly impressed and more importantly so is my wife.  I had 2 issues, one more of a request, and these guys got me taken care of extremely fast.  One of my issues was my HVR analog s-video wasn't working and Yaobing worked his rear off helping me.  I only missed one recording and it was on again this past weekend so we haven't missed a show yet ;D .
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