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Author Topic: PAL 24p stutter  (Read 7731 times)

matt82

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PAL 24p stutter
« on: December 13, 2012, 06:51:11 pm »

Hello.
I downloaded the demo of mc18 last night and loving it so far. I will more than likely be purchasing before my evaluation ends. Now onto my  problem. I am having trouble playing a PAL dvd in 24p mode. It stutters very badly. I have videoclock enabled. I was under the impression that videoclock would automatically slow down 25fps pal to 23.976 or 24fps. I tried converting the dvd to an MKV and it still stutters. on madvr info it drops frames like crazy. any suggestions? here are my pc specs

core i5 750 3.4ghz
12 gb ram
radeon 7970>hdmi out>yamaha receiver>sony tv
windows 7 x64
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Hilton

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 10:44:26 pm »

I had the same problem with 24p blu ray and have mostly got it licked.

Unfortunately there are many things that can cause stutter or judder (yes they different!)

What is the source? Is it encoded? Whats your screen refresh rate? Whats your decoder filter setup?
 Whats your output device and format? ie Intel Ivybridge HD2500 HDMI??? Without this and maybe even some more info its a little hard to assist you!

Cheers
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matt82

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 11:36:45 pm »

Hi, thanks for the response. I know for sure it's not judder. It stutters every second and you can see the dropped frames adding up in madvr.Like I said before I don't get this stuttering in ntsc or 23/24p sources. I am using a 120hz tv and outputting at 23.976fps. I'm using jriver red october high quality. also have videoclock checked. The source is an untouched PAL film dvd. output device is a radeon 7970.
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matt82

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2013, 10:32:27 pm »

gonna bump this and hopefully get another response...
 Using mpc-hc, madvr, and reclock, I am able to play 25p pal content that is properly slowed down to the original 24fps, but I still can't figure out how to do this with jriver. It's really the one big thing holding me back from purchasing the software because I have a lot of pal content.
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vairulez

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2013, 11:44:29 pm »

you should play pal content at 1808p50, most of them don't need to be slowed down
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fitbrit

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 01:33:16 am »

Can your display device handle 50 Hz?
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matt82

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 01:49:33 am »

I don't think so. it's an 120hz american TV.
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 02:01:41 am »

It would be good to understand what is causing the "stutters". A screen grab  from a few minutes into the movie with the MadVR OSD on screen might be useful.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 02:02:03 am »

Is the source 50i?

If so, try disabling deinterlacing in madvr.
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matt82

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 02:10:40 am »

Is the source 50i?

If so, try disabling deinterlacing in madvr.

that seems to have fixed the problem. thanks!!  one more question...will videoclock also slow down the audio pitch or is there some setting in the player to do so, because its playing smoothly now but I think the audio pitch is still off

edit: according to the wiki for video clock it says "This requires the fps setting for these files to be changed to 23.97 fps."  how do I do this?
thanks
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InflatableMouse

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 02:20:09 am »

I'm not sure about the technical details of videoclock so I'll refrain from answering that.

I'm surprised a 7970 is unable to do deinterlacing. Its almost twice as fast as a GTX 660, makes me wonder if there isn't something wrong here with DVD playback.

Unless of course you have madvr configured with insane upscale settings like jinc 8T.
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matt82

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2013, 02:38:35 am »

yeah im not sure either...it does deinterlacing 1080i and 480i just fine...
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InflatableMouse

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 02:46:57 am »

Can you check the madvr upscaling settings and maybe try to relax them a bit?

Unfortunately I'm a little pressed for time so I can't give you step by step instructions on how to check and set it. Its been discussed plenty so I think if you use the advanced search on the board you'll find some posts describing this.
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 02:47:53 am »

Still a MadVr OSD screenshot would be interesting. At the very least it would say if the deinterlacer is messing up the cadence somehow or if MadVR is just taking too long processing interlaced material. It would be surprising with that beast of a GPU, as IM said, unless you have some monstrous MadVR settings. There is really no point going above jinc 3-tap for upscaling.

Regarding the audio, not sure what you think is wrong with the pitch. The pitch should be slightly lower than the same video @50Hz. PAL DVDs are sped up without pitch correction (with maybe a handful of exceptions), so the pitch is wrong when played on a PAL TV and should be right when slowed down. Post a screenshot of your MC "audio path" to be sure.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 03:23:43 am »

As far as I know both tempo and pitch are applied to prevent donald duck voices, or the opposite. With the minimal corrections applied (under normal circumstances), I don't think you should hear it.
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 04:34:28 am »

He's talking about reversing Pal speed here, 25p->24p. That is noticeable, but actually corrects the pitch of a PAL DVD.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 04:41:08 am »

Ah right. I didn't realize that.
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matt82

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 04:41:15 am »

what im saying is that it in jriver it still sounds sped up. when i played the file with mpc hc and reclock I could immediately notice the difference in pitch.
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2013, 05:02:19 am »

Interesting! Check your "audio path" it should tell you exactly what MC is doing - either just a tempo change or a tempo and pitch change.
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matt82

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2013, 05:03:05 am »

just tempo change. shouldn't it be doing a pitch change too?
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2013, 05:06:52 am »

No, that's the point. Changing the tempo (slowing down) will change the pitch. A separate pitch correction would undo the effect of a tempo change, which in this case you don't want. If you think MC IS doing pitch correction and not saying so then I'd suggest a separate thread with this clearly in the title and hopefully Matt will take a look. Sounds unlikely though - The MC audio path info is normally reliable!
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InflatableMouse

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2013, 06:14:31 am »

I'm learning a bit here as well so forgive me if I'm asking the obvious here.

But .. aren't you assuming the PAL DVD is coming from 23.976 or 24p source without being remastered (so its acually sped up a bit for PAL, going from 23.976 to 50i)? What if his DVD was remastered correctly for 50i?

Matt82 mentioned he heard it speeding up but going from 25fps to 24fps is a 4% slowdown. That's what you said as well but it contradicts with what Matt82 said so that makes me wonder if he simply mistyped or if there's something else going on.

I apologize if I'm frustrating things!
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2013, 06:33:18 am »

We talked about this a lot a few years ago over in the Slysoft Reclock forums, which I was very heavily involved in. At the time, and I have not heard anything to say it has changed, there was only ONE, yes one, PAL DVD that anyone knew of that pitch corrected for the 4% speed up (one version of the original Lord of the Rings movie). Not saying there might not be more, but no one had noticed it. They are certainly very rare. The main reason, I believe, again discussed in depth over at Slysoft, is I don't think there is a method of pitch correction for tempo change that doesn't do very nasty things to the sound. The Reclock pitch corrector cuts the sound up into time slices, pitch corrects each slice then stitches them back together. Depending on the track you can sometimes hear the join! Almost worse, the audio is processed in channel pairs, not all 6/8 channels at once, so the phase coherence between fronts and rears and centre/sub is lost. Put more simply, even if the quality of each channel was perfect the surround effect is hopelessly messed up when you put them all together. I don't know what MC uses for pitch correction (it would be interesting to hear), but unless they use a completely different approach it's a bad idea, especially for movies!

So for almost all PAL DVDs when you slow them back to 24p you actually get the right, original, sound. What I believe Matt to be saying is that the pitch doesn't change when the track is slowed down 4%, which would imply that MC is correcting for the pitch shift due to tempo change, which is almost certainly not the right thing to do both because it is unnecessary and because it might well be butchering the sound! On the other hand the audio path does not say that is happening, so either Matt has it wrong or MC, when using Videoclock, pitch corrects silently. I'd find that surprising, but I guess it's possible  ?
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InflatableMouse

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 07:02:49 am »

Gotcha! Thanks for the explanation. It raises a lot of questions about my dvd collection though  ::).

what im saying is that it in jriver it still sounds sped up. when i played the file with mpc hc and reclock I could immediately notice the difference in pitch.

I interpret that as MC playing too fast (or, sounds like its playing too fast) while MPC sounded correct.
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2013, 07:17:28 am »

according to the wiki for video clock it says "This requires the fps setting for these files to be changed to 23.97 fps."  how do I do this?
thanks
Just read that wiki for the first time in a long time. What I believe that is saying is that if you want MC to automatically change your displays refresh rate to 23.976/24 fps when playing a PAL DVD you will need to change the FPS field/tag in the MC database to the appropriate value (by default it is set to 25). Of course, you need to check the disc is not genuinely 25fps (e.g. A PAL TV Show).

If you change your refresh rate manually this tag change is not I believe necessary. The tag is only used to decide if a refresh rate change is needed.
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2013, 07:20:17 am »

I interpret that as MC playing too fast (or, sounds like its playing too fast) while MPC sounded correct.
Yes, I think Matt is saying the video still sounds like it has PAL speedup, even when slowed down to 24fps. That isn't what the Videoclock wiki says or what the audio path says.
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jmone

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2013, 05:13:03 am »

Trying to work out PAL speedup is not easy as you can have PAL discs that are:
- NTSC Transfers
- 24fps Transfers (with or without pitch correction)
- Native 25fps material....

If you ever work out what material you want played at a specific FPS that is different to the PAL FPS you can tag them in MC.  When you play such a title, do a Right Click --> Window --> Screen Resolution and pick the display details you want (eg 24fps).  MC will then add in the "Playback Info" field an entry like this "(15:DisplaySettings)(15:1920x1080x32x24)" which will then instruct MC to play that media at that frame rate from then on.  You can copy these details to all such entries in the Database.  As you will see it can also store other details like crop settings, Zoom etc etc.  Very handy!
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2013, 05:38:52 am »

Useful to know this can be done direct from the right-click menu instead of editing the database, but how does this relate to the FPS tag, set when the media is imported?
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jmone

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2013, 02:16:35 pm »

It does nothing to that tag.  These values say "play this one file like this".
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Jong

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2013, 03:28:44 pm »

So it overrides the tag value? If the tag is set correctly and that field does not exist the same thing happens?
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jmone

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Re: PAL 24p stutter
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2013, 03:43:26 pm »

From what I can work out the "order" of priority in FPS switching is:
- "Enable Auto Display Settings changing" based on FPS field then
- Playback Info (if any) then
- madVR Display Modes settings

I bring up the Playback Info as another method where you can specify what Display Setting (inc FPS) to use to play a file back as well as a multitude of other playback options (crop, crop edges, zoom etc etc) as many of this older DVD content benefits from this as well.  One downside of Playback Info is that it is device unaware, so if you use MC Library Server the clients will all try to use these settings even if the particular PC does not support them.
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