Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Frobozz]

Parametric EQs are awesome.  And so are the Audeze headphones.

JRiver also supports VST plugins.  There are free and commercial VST plugins available.  Plugins to do EQ, multi-band compression, limiters, harmonizers, headphone crossfeed, all sorts of things.

Hearing aids are more than just EQ.  They also make use of other processing, like compressors.  For example, if you are boosting a frequency the hearing aid can add some compression to that frequency when something loud comes in at that frequency.  That keeps the EQ boost from hitting you with double really loud at that frequency.  Modern hearing aids are complex.

Might be worthwhile to experiment with some multi-band compression VST plugins to go along with the EQ.

It would be interesting if there was a hearing aid simulator VST plugin.  Something to simulate what a hearing aid does.  I've not seen one, but I've also not looked for one. 

[kstuart]

By the way, for a pair of headphones with roughly similar qualities to the Audeze LCD3, but far lower price, try the HiFiMan HE500 or HE400 (they have a similar planar design).  I have a pair of the HE400, and they have the most realistic bass reproduction that I have heard in a pair of headphones.  (No I don't mean a louder, boomy hip-hop bass)  The earlier HE500 have a little bit smoother frequency response, but without the more realistic bass.   The HE500 run $700 and the HE400 run $400.  And they are lighter than the Audeze as well.

[6233638]

That's really great to hear. I'm glad you have music sounding good again.

I wonder if a 'hearing correction' feature that measures your hearing then does adjustments based on the results would be interesting?

Seems like an interesting experiment. I'd be up for trying it.

I have a pair of the HE400, and they have the most realistic bass reproduction that I have heard in a pair of headphones.  (No I don't mean a louder, boomy hip-hop bass)  The earlier HE500 have a little bit smoother frequency response, but without the more realistic bass. The HE500 run $700 and the HE400 run $400.  And they are lighter than the Audeze as well.

Someone needs to build a modern sealed electrostatic or planar magnetic headphone.
Open headphones just aren't an option for me, and most of the current electrostatics are far too large and heavy for my use.
I have headphones on all day, and have had trouble with a lot of other high-end headphones for prolonged use.

I'm pretty happy with my Sony monitors though. I think the liquid crystal polymer film diaphragms they use are some of the thinnest and lightest of all dynamic headphones currently in production.

[Matt]

Open headphones just aren't an option for me

At the risk of going off-topic, why is that?

I find open phones like Sennheiser HD-580/600/650/800 to be a lot more comfortable for extended listening than sealed phones.  Maybe I just haven't tried the right sealed phones, but I always feel like my head is in a bubble.

[6233638]

At the risk of going off-topic, why is that?

I find open phones like Sennheiser HD-580/600/650/800 to be a lot more comfortable for extended listening that sealed phones.  Maybe I just haven't tried the right sealed phones, but I always feel like my head is in a bubble.

Too much external noise. With open headphones, there's no point in me buying high-end because I just hear everything else through them; the PC fans in the next room, road noise, other people moving around, having conversations, listening to TV/Radio etc, the neighbors walking around etc. Even with sealed headphones on, I still get some of that. (I have really sensitive hearing)

I have had several higher-end pairs of open headphones in the past though - it's not that I don't like how they sound, it's just that I don't like hearing everything else at the same time. I guess I don't listen at levels loud enough to drown everything else out.

I don't like on-ear headphones at all - whether open or closed. I generally don't think they sound very good, and I find them uncomfortable to wear.
I don't mind wearing IEMs for shorter periods of time, but I can't stand to keep them in all day, and those really have the "head in a bubble" effect.
A lot of the cheaper closed-back headphones do sound "closed off" as you describe, but I haven't had a problem with the better ones.

They can get warm sometimes, but I guess I'm just used to it. I've yet to find any headphones where there hasn't been some kind of comfort issue from wearing them for long stretches of time.
Either it's pressure on the side of my head (GS1000 left big rings around my ears at the end of the day!) pressure on the top of my head (less of an issue if you still have hair...) pain from the headphones pressing my ears against the side of my head, or onto the arms of my glasses (on-ear headphones) etc.

Crossfeed or HRTF can help with the "head in a bubble" effect from wearing headphones, though I'm not a fan of Media Center's built in "headphone" plugin - it changes the frequency response too much.
But I don't really experience that issue with the better closed headphones any more than other headphones. I guess I'm just not that susceptible to it, and I actually like the way headphones sound compared to speakers. The only reason I've been experimenting with crossfeed/hrtf myself lately, is that I don't like it when sounds are panned so much that they are only coming out a single channel.

[Frobozz]

Hi. Thanks for your very helpful comments. Yes, of course, hearing aids are much more than an EQ. However apparently all are oriented toward clarity of speech with little interest in music. Feedback on the web is that the old analog hearing aids worked well with music but are now long gone. I had to have the compressor turned off on the music mode of my aids. Just as the great soprano was reaching toward that high C, suddenly someone turned the volume way down, for a less than thrilling climax. I found the VST compressor plugins work much better; tried a number, and have been using Blockfish for some time-easy to adjust and doesn't mangle the music (if one tweaks sufficiently). I run one parametric EQ and then the Blockfish. I avoid the Headphone mixer (started I think by Headroom). Interesting idea, but to me it just muddies up the music. The incredible flexibility of MC continues to amaze me. As does the knowledge of members of this board.

The various VST plugins can do some neat things.  The VST support in JRiver Media Center really opens up possibilities to tweak and alter the sound.  I wanted to make sure you were aware of the VST support.  The built-in parametric EQ is very useful, but trying some of the VST parametric EQ plugins can give you some more options.

Plugins are fun.  But moderation is key.  Too much can make things a mess.  As for headphone crossfeed, my philosophy is that crossfeed is there to compensate for under-performing amps and under-performing headphones.  You're playing with the LCD-3 and HD800 so I assume you have a really good amp with nice soundstage.  At that point crossfeed is far less beneficial and really not needed or wanted.  I like having crossfeed available, but I rarely use it.

Have fun and enjoy the music.

[6233638]

Plugins are fun.  But moderation is key.  Too much can make things a mess.  As for headphone crossfeed, my philosophy is that crossfeed is there to compensate for under-performing amps and under-performing headphones.  You're playing with the LCD-3 and HD800 so I assume you have a really good amp with nice soundstage.  At that point crossfeed is far less beneficial and really not needed or wanted.  I like having crossfeed available, but I rarely use it.

Crossfeed or HRTF are not about compensation for bad headphones - they're about the fact that a sound which is hard-panned over to one side will only be heard in that ear.

With speakers, when you pan sounds all the way over to the left or right, you still hear that sound in your other ear as well, but at a lower level and with a slight delay. It's part of how our brain locates where sounds are coming from. Crossfeed fixes this.

In my testing so far, Redline Monitor seems to offer the most neutral implementation - but that probably makes sense since it's a commercial product rather than a free plugin.
If you set the speaker position to 90°, leave the distance at 0m, and turn the phantom center down to about -1.8dB (that may depend on your headphone frequency response - I adjusted it when playing white noise and toggling the plugin on/off until there was no difference in volume) it produces a more subtle effect than most I have tried.
Redline Monitor offers enough controls to properly adjust how it sounds, but not so many to overwhelm you, like a lot of other plugins do. I could never get TB Isone to sound right, for example.

Configured this way, it still sounds like you are listening to headphones rather than trying to make them sound like speakers, but music is more natural sounding and less fatiguing.
There is still some high-frequency emphasis that most Crossfeed/HRTF has, but it doesn't make the music sound "thin" like a lot of the plugins I tried.

What I find interesting is that with a lot of music, the difference can be very subtle when you toggle the plugin on/off during playback - but there are some tracks which get considerably wider.
It seems like there must be some kind of spatial cues that are just completely lost due to the isolated sound going to each ear, which your brain only picks up on once it's enabled.

With most plugins, I always found myself turning them off with certain types of music. So far, I have been happy to just leave Redline Monitor enabled all the time.
There is still some music which sounds better with it off - well, not necessarily better, but how I am used to it sounding - overall though, I think I prefer to leave it on.

The trial is a generous 60 days, so you have plenty of time to evaluate whether you like it or not. I find that most of the time I don't notice it being there - which is a good thing - but I do notice when it's missing.


This video is also quite a good explanation and demonstration of crossfeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7iHJY-lbLE

[Frobozz]

Crossfeed or HRTF are not about compensation for bad headphones - they're about the fact that a sound which is hard-panned over to one side will only be heard in that ear.

My comment wasn't intended to be a condemnation of crossfeed.  Just an observation that headphones that image and soundstage well don't need crossfeed as much.  And that amps that do a big open soundstage don't need crossfeed as much.  Combine really good headphones with a really good amp and the need for crossfeed is less.  Really good headphones being headphones like the HD800 or Audeze or Stax.  Really good amps being amps like the Eddie Current Balancing Act or the better electrostatic amps for the Stax.  So in a certain sense crossfeed can be thought of as compensating for "inadequate" gear.  But not really, because what crossfeed is doing is different than what the high end headphones and amps are doing.  So it's apples and oranges.

I do like crossfeed.  Especially crossfeed that is able to fill in the middle and move the soudstage more in front of the forehead rather than stuck between the ears.  Digital processing that allows for effects like crossfeed is a good thing.

It also depends greatly on the music you listen to and how it is recorded and mixed.

[6233638]

My comment wasn't intended to be a condemnation of crossfeed.  Just an observation that headphones that image and soundstage well don't need crossfeed as much.  And that amps that do a big open soundstage don't need crossfeed as much.

I really have to disagree. Unless you have some very open headphones, and you are playing them really loud, sound from the left driver is unlikely to hit your right ear, and certainly not in a way that acts like normal sounds do in the real world, or music played back via speakers.

With Redline Monitor - at least with the way I have it configured with my headphones - with many tracks you hear almost no change whether it's enabled or disabled.
It does not try to "force" the soundstage to get wider at all - it's just subtly more comfortable to listen to.

But what happens is that some tracks are mastered in such a way that positional cues are only being sent to one channel, so you lose that information when playing back the track on headphones, which crossfeed is able to restore. It's not artificially expanding the sound field the way that the "effects" plugin in Media Center does with its "Concert Hall, Jazz Club etc." settings, it's simply restoring the positional cues your brain uses to locate the sounds, which are lost when playing back music on headphones. (any headphones)

The more isolating your headphones are to external sounds, the more pronounced the effect of crossfeed may be though.
Not because the effect is stronger, but because your brain needs it more, because there are less sounds hitting both ears.

Combine really good headphones with a really good amp and the need for crossfeed is less.  Really good headphones being headphones like the HD800 or Audeze or Stax.  Really good amps being amps like the Eddie Current Balancing Act or the better electrostatic amps for the Stax.  So in a certain sense crossfeed can be thought of as compensating for "inadequate" gear.  But not really, because what crossfeed is doing is different than what the high end headphones and amps are doing.  So it's apples and oranges.

But no matter how good your headphones are, they still isolate sounds that are only playing in one channel.


Some "crossfeed" plugins are trying to do things like simulate a room by adding reverb etc. and those plugins are horrible in my opinion.
Those are the kind of pointless "effects" that I wouldn't want to be using with high-end headphones. (or any headphones for that matter)

Here's a quick "demo" I put together that might demonstrate it better: http://www.sendspace.com/file/6ja148
It's just pink noise being played to the left channel only, toggling Redline Monitor on/off.

The more isolating your headphones are, the more your brain really does not like the sound only hitting one ear.

[kstuart]

Quote: "Too much external noise. With open headphones, there's no point in me buying high-end because I just hear everything else through them; the PC fans in the next room, road noise, other people moving around, having conversations, listening to TV/Radio etc, the neighbors walking around etc. Even with sealed headphones on, I still get some of that. (I have really sensitive hearing)"

The difference between open and closed headphones is mainly that you can only use open headphones in a situation where a) you don't want to make noise (apartment building, late night, etc) so you are not using speakers and b) you don't have noise going on in the room and you don't have other people in the room (usually the same thing).   Open headphones are usually clearly audible to anyone else in the room, and planars like Audeze and Hifiman are often louder on the outside.

Generally, most of the top headphones, in terms of sound quality, are open headphones, while most professional headphones are closed headphones, and are designed to do a job well (such as the Sennheiser 25 headphones that you see sports broadcasters wearing).

[JustinChase]

I'm certainly no expert, and not trying to argue, but his seems rather contradictory...

Generally, most of the top headphones...are open headphones, while most professional headphones are closed headphones

Generally, wouldn't "professional" somewhat equal "top" (or best)?  You seem to be saying professionals don't use the best equipment, which would surprise me.

[6233638]

I'm certainly no expert, and not trying to argue, but his seems rather contradictory...

Generally, wouldn't "professional" somewhat equal "top" (or best)?  You seem to be saying professionals don't use the best equipment, which would surprise me.

It's a lot easier to build a good sounding "open" headphone than a good sounding "closed" one. With an open headphone, sound is sent to your ears, and "reflected" sound (for simplicity's sake) is sent out the back of the headphone. Unlike speakers, you generally don't have to worry about that sound being reflected off the walls and being sent back into the headphones either.

With a closed or sealed headphone, you have the intended sound going to the ear, but also have to deal with internal reflections/resonances due to the closed nature of the headphone enclosure. It's far more difficult to build a good sounding closed headphone than an open headphone.

The advantage of a sealed headphone (closed back ≠ sealed) is that it isolates you from external noise, so that you are mostly only hearing the music being played.
Due to its design, an open headphone will let external sounds pass largely unobstructed into the headphones, so you are hearing both the music being played, and any external sounds.

If you are in a quiet environment, an open headphone can sound best, because it's easier to make an open headphone sound good, and you aren't going to be hearing any external sounds.
If you can't control the environment you are in though, even though it's difficult to make a closed headphone sound as good as an open design, it doesn't matter how good an open headphone sounds under ideal conditions if all you're hearing is the kids playing in the next room, or the neighbor's loud TV etc.
Similarly, a sealed headphone design won't leak sound if you are using to monitor a recording.

This is the reason that professional monitors tend to be closed headphone designs rather than open ones.

[Frobozz]

This does depend a lot on personal preference.  Hard panned sound on the left or right doesn't bother me much on headphones.  My brain seems to have learned to do its own sort of crossfeed somehow.  The hard panning is not something that happens to an annoying degree with the recordings I listen to.  The annoyance factor is less when using higher quality headphones (even higher quality closed headphones) and the annoyance factor is less also when using a high quality amp that has good soundstage and a sound style that is open and not forced (tube amps are good for this style of sound).

You can also choose to address this problem with DSP processing using JRiver's built-in crossfeed or a third party VST plugin.  That's absolutely a good and reasonable way to fix the problem, and in many respects a better way to go.  It depends on personal preference.

I'll try the Redline Monitor plugin.  It might get me closer to the sound I'm after from my headphones.  It's cheaper than buying a new amp.  If it's good it would be worth the cost.

[6233638]

Hard panned sound on the left or right doesn't bother me much on headphones.

I am usually not bothered by it, because well-mixed music typically doesn't pan all the way over so that sound is only coming out of one channel. But I do find that crossfeed makes it easier to listen for longer periods of time before things start to get fatiguing, and I also find that hard-panned sounds are more common with video playback than music.

But it's not just about sounds which are panned all the way over to a single channel. As I previously mentioned, it does also restore the positioning information which is lost in some tracks when using headphones.

My brain seems to have learned to do its own sort of crossfeed somehow.  The hard panning is not something that happens to an annoying degree with the recordings I listen to.  The annoyance factor is less when using higher quality headphones (even higher quality closed headphones) and the annoyance factor is less also when using a high quality amp that has good soundstage and a sound style that is open and not forced (tube amps are good for this style of sound).

Again, I don't see how it is possible for that to be the case. With headphones, you are only hearing the sound in one of your ears, in isolation.
Unless your amplifier or headphones have a high level of crosstalk - which is not the same thing as crossfeed or HRTF, and I would not consider a device with a high level of crosstalk to be "high end" - then it's basically not possible to be "compensating" for this somehow.

This is a function of our hearing, where our brain uses both ears to locate the position of a sound, and with headphones you are depriving it of that information.
If you think about it, other than using headphones, there's basically no other sound source that isolates each ear in this manner.

How good or bad the "soundstage" of your headphones is, has no impact on what crossfeed processing is there for.

You can also choose to address this problem with DSP processing using JRiver's built-in crossfeed or a third party VST plugin.  That's absolutely a good and reasonable way to fix the problem, and in many respects a better way to go.  It depends on personal preference.

Media Center's "Headphone" plugin sounds "thin" to me - sucks all the life out of the music.

I'll try the Redline Monitor plugin.  It might get me closer to the sound I'm after from my headphones.  It's cheaper than buying a new amp.  If it's good it would be worth the cost.

Be sure to have a read over the manual when trying it out. As previously mentioned, I like it at 90° with the distance function disabled, and the phantom center down about -1.8dB. (playing pink noise seemed to work well for this, to adjust it so that the "center" volume sounded the same whether the plugin was on or off)

I don't like how things sound when you try to emulate speakers by reducing the angle below 90°, and change the sound in a way that it is coming from in front of you - I still want my headphones to sound like headphones. (but some people don't)

Considering the generous length of the trial, I do think it's worth giving it a shot. I would also suggest that once you have it set up in a way that sounds good to you, that you don't toggle it on and off all the time.
I would try listening with it on for a few days, and then see how you think things sound without it.

[mwillems]

It's a lot easier to build a good sounding "open" headphone than a good sounding "closed" one. With an open headphone, sound is sent to your ears, and "reflected" sound (for simplicity's sake) is sent out the back of the headphone. Unlike speakers, you generally don't have to worry about that sound being reflected off the walls and being sent back into the headphones either.

With a closed or sealed headphone, you have the intended sound going to the ear, but also have to deal with internal reflections/resonances due to the closed nature of the headphone enclosure. It's far more difficult to build a good sounding closed headphone than an open headphone.

There are trade-offs with either design, i.e. there are things that are very hard to do "right" with open designs too (other than ambient noise).  It's much harder to get low bass response in a completely open headphone, for example, because it can't use "pressure mode" to generate bass.  Finding an entirely open-backed headphone (as opposed to a merely vented design) with convincing low bass response at a reasonable price is challenging, whereas it's much, much easier to generate entirely too much bass in a closed headphone.  In my experience that "head in a bubble" feeling is exacerbated by the fact that the speakers are essentially pressurizing the air in your ear canal to create low frequencies.  

For the principle check out this article (it's about making bass with small subwoofers, but the physics are the same): http://sound.westhost.com/subcon.htm

None of which is to disagree with the overall thrust of your post. I personally prefer open-backed cans when I'm in private, but ambient noise makes them unusable anywhere outside of the house for exactly the reasons you describe.  

[kstuart]

Quote: "Generally, wouldn't "professional" somewhat equal "top" (or best)?  You seem to be saying professionals don't use the best equipment, which would surprise me."

Open headphones can only be used in a quiet, private situation.

Professionals are always in situations where outside sound needs to be excluded, hence closed headphones are used.  For example:

[Samson]

Like most things, headphone audio is a complex area involving, amongst other things, recreating the psychoacoustical experience of music in High Fidelity with a couple of 'cans'.

I personally use the Stax SR Lambda Pros and with the Stax SRM-1/Mk2 Pro class A headphone amp. It is an open back, circumaural, electrostatic design with an increased voltage and electrode gap for more dynamic bass.

Subjectively it produces a gloriously immersive listening experience, a bit like sitting in amongst the musicians rather than x rows back in the concert hall. However unlike some (most?) closed designs it creates amazingly 'open' sound which is highly intimate but neither 'in your face' nor 'in your head' so much. Of course forwardly presented tower speakers can be 'in your face' as well, so not saying this is just a "closed vs Open" headphone debate.

Interestingly I find the electrostatic tower loudspeaker designs (maggies, martin Logans etc) beautifully ethereal but a little too much so. Often also lacking base and if paired with a cone bass driver the sound somewhat disarticulated or incongruent. Imaging, for me, is never as precise. The more intimate experience of headphone electrostatics hled directly over your ears seems to counter these 'shortcomings' and, as already said, I prefer their presentation over closed headphones with traditional drivers.

I haven't tried using cross feed to emulate inter-aural time delays or other tricks to emulate the ways sound waves  of a certain amplitude (shorter than the distance between the ears) sculpt around the head/nose to produce inter-aural amplitude differences (loudness).These are psychoacoustic cues to spatial localization involved in stereoscopic auditory imaging. The Stax do a decent job of imaging but like i said the perspective is so close that it is like being immersed in the sound, a musician's perspective if you will, rather than localizing instruments from listening back in the concert hall.

I get it that DJ's and others need to block out external sounds and that noise cancelling HP's have their own set of problems and limitations, originally designed to cancel helicopter and aeroplane noise. Even sound recording engineers can use closed Headphones but from my reading this is not always the case, with advantages and disadvantages.

In Ear headphones are a whole new discussion, claimed to be the best at 'blocking' external noise and also claimed to reproduce audiophile quality. I haven't tried the more upmarket versions so cant say.

My interest in in ear headphones relates to something else.I suspect that they provide a combination of air-induced and (more than other designs) bone-conducted sounds.We perceive sound by both these mechanisms and every neurologist carries around two tuning forks to differentiate bone vs air hearing loss (different diagnostic implications). I wonder now whether IE headphones could in fact be ideal in some cases of hearing impairment.

Too much external noise. With open headphones, there's no point in me buying high-end because I just hear everything else through them; the PC fans in the next room, road noise, other people moving around, having conversations, listening to TV/Radio etc, the neighbors walking around etc. Even with sealed headphones on, I still get some of that. (I have really sensitive hearing)

I wonder whether this is an issue of perhaps selective attention processes in the brain. Normally our brains extinguish extraneous sensations as a matter of selective focus. For example you are not aware of the pressure on your butt when sitting unless something directs your attention to it. This habituation or acclimation is normal. Another possibility is is 'over-sensitivity' such as might occur in hyperaccusis....basically a problem of central modulation within the nervous system. Of course, its fair to say most people like to listen to music without the distraction of intrusive external sounds.

[preproman]

Is this Head-Fi 

[Frobozz]

Is this Head-Fi 

Nope.  Head-Fi doesn't have as much discussion about MC or crossfeed plugins that cost $100.

I didn't intend my initial comment about crossfeed to spin off a discussion like this here.  ::redfaced_embarrassed_smiley::
Headphone people can be entusiastic about sound qualities of various gear or tweaks.   

[fluidz]

Thanks for sharing your find on Redline, and preset provided. I find it helps makes things sound even better with my He-500 headphones and Emotiva Mini amp.  Better than the built in crossfeed.  With the plugin enabled sound seems like it has been eq'd too, more treble,

Is this plugin supposed to do this, I Was expecting crossfeed and nothing else.  Not that I'm complaining as audio sounds dull without it off.  

Cheers.

[6233638]

Thanks for sharing your find on Redline, and preset provided. I find it helps makes things sound even better with my He-500 headphones and Emotiva Mini amp.  Better than the built in crossfeed.  With the plugin enabled sound seems like it has been eq'd too, more treble,

Is this plugin supposed to do this, I Was expecting crossfeed and nothing else.  Not that I'm complaining as audio sounds dull without it off.

If you check the manual, there shouldn't be much of an impact on frequency response if you have the distance control turned off.
There's a slight mid/high frequency emphasis  but it's supposed to be flat within ±0.1dB. I did notice it as well though; it seems to vary depending on the content, but I only really noticed it when A/B'ing, and did not find it to be a problem when listening normally.

[bebe]

At the risk of going off-topic, why is that?

I find open phones like Sennheiser HD-580/600/650/800 to be a lot more comfortable for extended listening that sealed phones.  Maybe I just haven't tried the right sealed phones, but I always feel like my head is in a bubble.

Agreed.

Blue Note label Jazz especially from 50s and 60s (hard left hard right instruments) benefits greatly from cross feed