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[Arindelle]

Hey all

I installed JRiver for a friend of mine, and he passed me his backup to do some fixing on his files names and tags.

When I got the disk it was like it was never formatted (WD Green three TB drive).

So over teamviewer I reformatted it again. Started the backup from scratch. Later in the day, I went in again remotely after it was done and checked windows explorer on his machine ... al the files were there. He gave me the drive again and NOTHING windows was not recognizing it.

For info, we both ue the same external dock; I have tried reading the disk from three different PCs, nada on each; and I have no problem reading other different hard drives. Also I tested the hard drive with Western Digital Data Lifeguard Diagnostic  ans it passed.

The only thing that I found was that his SSD is a Samsung Evo and has a bug running slow -- they just put out new firmware to remedy this. I don't see how this would effect a backup though

Anybody recommend what I could do? Thanks a bunch in advance

PS -- he had another that was doing the same thing. He returned it, so I think its in his setup, but I can't see why he can read the drive and no one else can.

[Arindelle]

nobody of any ideas on this one? Has me stumped 

[kensn]

Check the drive in his PC and see how it is formatted.

[RoderickGI]

Does he have Windows Bitlocker or similar turned on?

[astromo]

From here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Guide
you might want to rule out some low down hardware problem:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Guide#Disk_or_OS_Corruption
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Disks

[Arindelle]

Hey thanks for the replies guys

Check the drive in his PC and see how it is formatted.

yes I formatted it, both times; just a simple volume no separate partitions, GBT not mbr --

Does he have Windows Bitlocker or similar turned on?

no he doesn't -- he has no idea what is on his PC I installed everything and built the computer 

From here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Guide
you might want to rule out some low down hardware problem:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Guide#Disk_or_OS_Corruption
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Troubleshooting_Disks

Used all the western Digital Tools -- the disk is fine - the second time I formatted it and copied files to it off of my dock no problem. Got the drive back and his dock and same thing - needs to be initialized. Also remember he returned the first disk which has this problem, the drive is OK and his dock is OK. On his system he can read it and on other PCs (I've checked 5 different ones now) it not been initialized)

All his drivers are up to date, no problems with his SATA connections or his USB ports.

SO as I can't find any one else with this type of problem on the web (normally someone has always had a similar problem if you know how to search for it). I can only come up with two things to try

1) update the firmware on his SSD -- don't know why that would affect anything but needs to be done anyways

2) make sure he is not putting in on anything magnetic I suppose it is possible that he is messing the drive after he has copied on to it

There is one thing, but probably has nothing to do with this. He has a Streamcom case which is really 2.5 kilo block of aluminum .. its very thick actually. To the point where it interfered with his remote receiver for his mouse (it wouldn't work without a USB extention -- sort of a Faraday effect? would you think that could actually do something to a hard drive?? Sort of doubt it but I'm really pulling at straws

thanks in advance

[RoderickGI]

The drive works for him in his dock on his PC, and when you remote into his PC using.

The drive can't be read, or even recognised as initialised in your identical dock, on your PC or in fact on five tested PCs, using your dock.

Does the drive work in his dock on your PC?


With his cables?
With your cables?

Possible faulty items:
His dock.
Your dock.
His cables. (Probably not your cables.)
The USB ports on either PC. (It is a USB dock I assume.)

Test all combinations.

[Arindelle]

The drive works for him in his dock on his PC, and when you remote into his PC using.

The drive can't be read, or even recognised as initialised in your identical dock, on your PC or in fact on five tested PCs, using your dock.

Does the drive work in his dock on your PC?


With his cables?
With your cables?

Possible faulty items:
His dock.
Your dock.
His cables. (Probably not your cables.)
The USB ports on either PC. (It is a USB dock I assume.)

Test all combinations.

Yes used his drive in his dock in my machines AND my dock in my machine. His cables AND my cables. The dock is exactly the same (made by Orieco) His dock can read (on my machine at least any of my drives).

Multiple USB ports were used. Multiple PCs were tried. No I think I checked out every possible hardware combination, and checked the drive through windows -- the only thing I haven't check is through DOS and maybe forcing a letter to be assigned -- but I don't know how to do that and I presume if it needs to be initialized in windows it won't show up in dos anyway.

Not sure at all, the only thing I guess would be to upgrade the firmware on his SSD and try again. If his HTPC dies on him he is screwed with no backups.

[RoderickGI]

So based on the above you have eliminated as a possible cause his dock and his cables, leaving just his PC and the hard drive itself.

You didn't specifically say his drive and dock on your PC doesn't work (I don't think), but I assume that it doesn't, as you have checked all possible hardware combinations.
Out of interest, what about one of your hard drives in your dock, on his PC? That should work, but given this issue I would not expect it to work.
What about one of your drives in his dock, on his PC?


The dock being exactly the same doesn't matter, if one has a fault.
I don't think updating the firmware on his SSD will change anything. But I would do it anyway. Firmware upgrades on SSDs do tend to improve functionality, performance, or reliability.
I was thinking maybe if it is a USB3.0 dock that interference may be an issue, or the heavy case could be radiating an EMF signal, but that would just cause data errors, not make the drive unrecognised and requiring formatting.

Anyway, I am now thinking either it is a very weird hardware issue in either the PC, drive, or dock, or it is something in the BIOS on his PC, or yours. I'm going with BIOS, unless testing the above combinations reveals something weird.

So, the drive is formatted with a GPT partition. Typically that requires the correct capability in the BIOS on his PC. I can't remember exactly what settings I have seen in my BIOSs (traditional and UEFI), but I think at least one had a setting enabling the use of GPT drives. It may have been labelled "Supporting large hard drives" or similar.

Just a thought as well. You said his drive was formatted as a GPT drive. Can your PC read a GPT drive? Do you use GPT drives? The fact that your PC detected the drive hardware fine, but wanted to format it does actually point to a problem with your PC reading GPT formatted drives.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn640535(v=vs.85).aspx

There are also potential issues with settings for support of legacy USB devices under a UEFI based PC. If his PC has legacy support turned on, and yours has it set to Auto, or Off, perhaps this would make a difference. Maybe his PC is writing to the drive as if it is a legacy device, and yours only expects a non-legacy device?

Do you both have UEFI based motherboards, and do you have AHCI Mode turned on?



I suggest comparing your BIOS/UEFI settings to his, to see if there is something obviously different.

[Arindelle]

Hey thanks you very much for spending the time to look into this  Replies in red

So based on the above you have eliminated as a possible cause his dock and his cables, leaving just his PC and the hard drive itself.

Yes

You didn't specifically say his drive and dock on your PC doesn't work (I don't think), but I assume that it doesn't, as you have checked all possible hardware combinations.

=>His Dock and his cables work on my PC using all kinds of drives, just not his Hard Drive

Out of interest, what about one of your hard drives in your dock, on his PC? That should work, but given this issue I would not expect it to work.
What about one of your drives in his dock, on his PC?   

Well, the first time I reformatted his drive and copied a couple of albums to test it, and they could be read on his PC.


The dock being exactly the same doesn't matter, if one has a fault.
I don't think updating the firmware on his SSD will change anything. But I would do it anyway. Firmware upgrades on SSDs do tend to improve functionality, performance, or reliability. 

Yes, I'm going to but I can't do that remotely without him being their. He should make an image disk backup first. The new firmware addresses an issue of speed. My copy rates over USB3 are 3 to 4 times faster than his. On a Panasonic Pro -- his EVO does not have the same transfer speeds but my drive should not be 3x as fast. Maybe its not just speed they are correcting


I was thinking maybe if it is a USB3.0 dock that interference may be an issue, or the heavy case could be radiating an EMF signal, but that would just cause data errors, not make the drive unrecognised and requiring formatting.

Agree. The only reason is that the Streacom case, similar to an HDPlex if you have heard of those, is really heavy and uses thick aluminum panels to radiate heat, and is a very good case for a silent PC. He can't get either his remote mouse or keyboard (microsoft) to work and I had a similar problem with my case (a Lian Li all aluminum case) which I solved with a usb dongle extension. But for the drive issue??? I can't see the Faraday effect (euh read rare) having anything to with it. I suppose it is possible that he has placed his dock on his amp or on a speaker which might have demagnetized the drive somehow .. but he says he hasn't. Pulling at straws again 

Anyway, I am now thinking either it is a very weird hardware issue in either the PC, drive, or dock, or it is something in the BIOS on his PC, or yours. I'm going with BIOS, unless testing the above combinations reveals something weird.

So, the drive is formatted with a GPT partition. Typically that requires the correct capability in the BIOS on his PC. I can't remember exactly what settings I have seen in my BIOSs (traditional and UEFI), but I think at least one had a setting enabling the use of GPT drives. It may have been labelled "Supporting large hard drives" or similar.   

hmm never heard of that, I will check that one!  However, I have a funny feeling that for my HTPC and his thats not it, but worth a try. His is a very new i5 Haswell on a recent Gigabyte board. And mine is an i5 Sandybridge with an Asus mb; not as recent but not that old either. Both run UEFI

Just a thought as well. You said his drive was formatted as a GPT drive. Can your PC read a GPT drive? Do you use GPT drives? The fact that your PC detected the drive hardware fine, but wanted to format it does actually point to a problem with your PC reading GPT formatted drives.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn640535(v=vs.85).aspx

I only use GPT drives at the moment, so yes it can read them. I read MBR drives from others no problem, too. However, as I tested both docks in three other PCs, not all of them are UEFI capable and that could explain these other Pcs not being able to read them I suppose

There are also potential issues with settings for support of legacy USB devices under a UEFI based PC. If his PC has legacy support turned on, and yours has it set to Auto, or Off, perhaps this would make a difference. Maybe his PC is writing to the drive as if it is a legacy device, and yours only expects a non-legacy device?

Ah HA. I have never had this problem before, but I admit I have never looked at this bios setting. I never touch things like that. I'll do that asap. Maybe that is it?!

Do you both have UEFI based motherboards, and do you have AHCI Mode turned on?

Yes and Yes. I always run SSDs in AHCI mode. Samsung (his drive) even has a wizard to change the bios for you

I suggest comparing your BIOS/UEFI settings to his, to see if there is something obviously different.

Ok thanks, will do!    Can I do that remotely via Team Viewer?

[RoderickGI]

Out of interest, what about one of your hard drives in your dock, on his PC? That should work, but given this issue I would not expect it to work.
What about one of your drives in his dock, on his PC?    

Well, the first time I reformatted his drive and copied a couple of albums to test it, and they could be read on his PC.

On this one I actually meant testing one of your drives that had been formatted on your PC. Oh wait, you mean you formatted his drive in your PC, then it worked in his PC. Okay then, that tests what I meant.

Ok thanks, will do!    Can I do that remotely via Team Viewer?

Unfortunately you can't edit the BIOS via Team Viewer, since the PC needs to be booted and running windows to use Team Viewer, or at least running from a boot CD or something. You, or someone who knows what they are doing, will need to be there. As you have different motherboards there will be different settings and features.

This comment:

My copy rates over USB3 are 3 to 4 times faster than his.

Would also seem to imply that his USB speed is lower, so it could be running in some legacy mode, or have some incorrect UEFI setting. It isn't going to be easy to find what works. Even if you change nothing, go right through his BIOS and check everything, and THEN SAVE THE BIOS. Sometimes just doing a save can fix things, and as the Samsung utility has edited his BIOS to support AHCI, it may have got something wrong.

Also, a new thought, you haven't mentioned what he is using to create the backup. Is it just a Windows backup, or a full image of the disk, or are you using backup software? I'm not sure about using a Windows image from one machine in another machine, but it still doesn't explain the "this drive needs initialisation" issue. Regardless, check all his backup settings to make sure nothing strange is turned on.

Finally, it isn't unknown for multiple disks in one batch to fail early in their life. Disk drives usually fail either in the first weeks, or don't fail for years, if treated well. Maybe this is all another weird disk failure. So if you have a spare drive and need to visit him anyway to check the BIOS (I hope that isn't too long a trip!), then take your spare disk, format it in his hardware, do a backup to it, and test it when you get home in your hardware. If it works, I think he may have a second bad hard disk.

[Arindelle]

Thanks again Roderick, I'll get on it and bring a HD of mine to bring back too. I'm going to check out the BIOS for his board first to make sure I understand the options, been using Asus boards for years, just hope his is not in French