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[broncodan]

I was wondering if the issue of bulk renaming (which I know is an actual move in windows) multiple folders was updated in this version?  Previously it would update/move the folder name and associated mp3s and then leave the original folder behind with the folder.jpg file or other types of files there the folder (specifically some.log or .txt files)

Ideally I want to make my file structure consistent (artist/album/track for single artist albums or album/artist - track for various artists).  My tags are how I want them. It's just the folder structure that is not. I have quite a few where it is artist/artist - album/track. Too many to update manually. And no particular reason except type A personality.

I know that at one point there was talk about adding a checkbox to the dialog and have seen some other seemingly complicated work arounds with view set ups and tagging and identifying all types of files with similar metadata.

Just wanted to do something easy as there are a lot of tags/data I have saved in MC that are not in the actual file tag (and I don't want to add all that to the file).

Hoping that there is an update for this.

[Vocalpoint]

I was wondering if the issue of bulk renaming (which I know is an actual move in windows) multiple folders was updated in this version?  Previously it would update/move the folder name and associated mp3s and then leave the original folder behind with the folder.jpg file or other types of files there the folder (specifically some.log or .txt files)

No update so far that I can see.

Then again - I do not need to move anything that is not an actual audio file to my "media" location but I know there are many that do need this function.

VP

[connersw]

Not fixed, and a continued point of frustration for me.  In fact, I was so frustrated with it earlier this week, I began looking at switching back to XMBC.  If I have to use multiple programs to manage my Library, I might as well use multiple programs for playback as well.

It seems ridiculous that almost every other tag editor/media manager can handle this except MC; especially considering MC requires you to move files from within MC.

An added checkbox in RM&C along the lines of "include all files in folder - including non-imported files" seems like a rather simple fix to a long standing issue.

[Vocalpoint]

It seems ridiculous that almost every other tag editor/media manager can handle this except MC; especially considering MC requires you to move files from within MC.

Tag n Rename does not move anything but the actual files I am targeting/editing. What other apps can "handle" this?

VP

[connersw]

Yes Tag&Rename does--I use it all the time.  Media Monkey does (or did) as well (it's been a while since I've used it). 

[Vocalpoint]

Yes Tag&Rename does--I use it all the time.  Media Monkey does (or did) as well (it's been a while since I've used it). 

How to do you set that in Tag N Rename?

5 minutes ago I just edited an album with 10 tracks and two other files (a jpg and a PDF) in the original location. When I hit Rename Files using my standard template (%1\%3\%6 %2) the 10 files get moved nicely into my designated structure and the other two tracks stay where they are (and do not get moved at all) - exactly as I want them too.

What are you doing differently? Or what am I missing?

VP

[connersw]

I use Rename Folder (F7).

[Vocalpoint]

I use Rename Folder (F7).

Got it. I do not - hence it behaves exactly like MC does - which I prefer.

I see that F7 gives you the checkbox "Apply to all Highlighted Folders That Contain Files"...which does exactly what you need it to.

VP

[connersw]

Earlier this week I was renaming some Files, and I accidentally selected multiple Albums (including some SACD .iso Files).  I quickly clicked through the pop-up message like I always do (because it always comes up), not noticing the number of Files I was changing.  I did not realize the error until I noticed all my SACD Albums disappeared from my Library.  It took me a while to trace back the problem, and by then it was obviously too late to do an Undo.

I had to:
1) Turn off Auto-Import and shut down MC.
2) Manually rename all my SACD .iso Files. 
3) Restore my Library to an earlier version.
4) Doing the restore for some reason made me loose all the Thumbnails for my Home Videos, so I had to go back and rebuild all of them (including changing my screen capture settings since many of my Home Videos are just short clips).
5) A handful of my SACD Albums were not recognized as the old name, and were instead re-Imported so I had to go through and retag those Albums.  Murphey's Law being what it is, these of course were .iso Albums with multiple Artists on each track and Multi-Channel tracks (double work).
6) Go through Windows Explorer and delete orphaned Folders with just Folder.jpg in it.  Plus go through each one to make sure that there wasn't a log .txt file in it that I wanted to keep.

It ended up taking several days of clean up, and I'm still not done cleaning up orphaned Folders.  I realize I created the initial mess, but it could have been cleaned up much more quickly if MC implemented two requests that have been requested multiple times going back several versions:
1) Fix the way RM&C handles Rename.
2) Provide .xml files for SACD .iso Files (fixing how RM&C handles them wouldn't hurt either).

So yeah, I'm not very high on RM&C in MC right now.  Incredibly frustrated actually. 

[Vocalpoint]

It ended up taking a several days of clean up, and I'm still not done cleaning up orphaned Folders.  I realize I created the initial mess, but it could have been cleaned up much more quickly if MC implemented two requests that have been requested multiple times going back several versions:

1) Fix the way RM&C handles Rename.
2) Provide .xml files for SACD .iso Files (fixing how RM&C handles them wouldn't hurt either).

So yeah, I'm not very high on RM&C in MC right now.  Incredibly frustrated actually. 

Agreed - RM&C can be very destructive if one is not paying attention - that is why I never use it on the actual Master library.

It is only gets called in my Staging view where I know I am dealing with a very small amount of files that can be fixed easily if something goes haywire.

VP

[Arindelle]

I have bee nusing a work around for quite some time, that might suit. JRiver will remove empty folders, there is even a warning that comes up.

All you have to do is import the images with the files and set up a view that is not in the audio part of the tree. Or in otherwords views that contain multiple media types.

Now yes you will be importing files so, you might have to filter them out if you also have photos, but that is easy to do. Or you simply select all folder.jpgs after your moves and and remove them just from the library not the disk of course.

This also serves another purpose, you can create a maintenance view for small images which can later be replaced by larger ones. Its is also handy if you have pdf files or secondary images

The only time this can have issues is when you open the folders and windows creates a system file (thumbs.db) which could be hidden.

There is another work around that I don't like as much, and not import the folder.jpg at all. after you are done moving your files around select them and choose cover art=> save cover art to external locations ....

I can see your point about this being unwieldy and maybe dangerous ... but it is very powerful especially with the presets you can make now. Either dumb it down or give people lots of options ... JR tends to go with the later.

[Vocalpoint]

I can see your point about this being unwieldy and maybe dangerous ... but it is very powerful especially with the presets you can make now. Either dumb it down or give people lots of options ... JR tends to go with the later.

Hey - I am all for power and giving people tons of options - so why not an option to allow a user to MOVE (or not move) all files in a folder structure - regardless of type?

This could be easily done with a simply checkbox on the RM&C interface. It could even be saved as part of the preset layout as well.

VP

[glynor]

You can also move folders from inside MC using the Explorer View under Drives & Devices and the entire contents go (and no orphans are left behind).  Unfortunately, you can't move more than one folder at a time this way, and you can't rename them based on categories.

I've considered writing a utility that can scan a given folder and look for folders that only contain "detritus" (orphaned sidecar files, JPGs, and whatnot) and delete them.  But, I haven't done so (yet).

It is a bit of a tough problem to solve.  It has been discussed a bunch of times.  I don't think there is a super-killer "clean" way to do it, without sometimes misunderstanding the user's intent.  But, I also don't think it has gone completely unnoticed by JRiver.  All good things come to those who wait.

That said... You can largely solve the problem if you import EVERYTHING into MC.  I do it this way:

1. I import into a large "catch all" directory at M:\Incoming\.  MC watches this folder and imports everything in it that it can handle.
2. I have a set of special "tagging views" under a top-level Advanced View in the Tree.  This is separate from the regular Audio, Video, and Images views, and can contain a mixture of Media Types.
3. Any auxiliary files that go with particular file-sets show up right with them in these views.  If I want to keep them with their associated files, then I just tag them the same way as the "real" files.
4. When you use Rename Move and Copy Files from this location, with both the "real" and "auxiliary" files selected, you can move them all at once, still renaming via tags as you'd prefer.  Using Presets in Rename, Move, and Copy Files obviously makes this a snap.
5. When I'm done clearing a folder out of "good" files, I'm left with just a bunch of detritus.  Control-A and Delete makes short work of these.


Click to embiggen.

If you want further instructions on how to set up a view, just ask.

[Vocalpoint]

It is a bit of a tough problem to solve.  It has been discussed a bunch of times.  I don't think there is a super-killer "clean" way to do it, without sometimes misunderstanding the user's intent. 

I have to respectfully disagree.

While I would not make use of such a function - adding a checkbox to RM&C that says either "Move ALL additional files within source folder" or "Copy ALL additional files within source folder" takes care of everything.

You either choose to move just the audio files you are working with OR the audio files AND the "detritus". Not sure what else needs to be done without a whole lotta over thinking going on. No misunderstanding here that I can see.

VP

[glynor]

This has been discussed ad nauseum. That option only works if you are already moving all files from each directory to the same destination.  It would be a very dangerous option if your source directory was mixed, as mine often are, and I'm sure many other user's are.

If you just rip or download albums, and those always come in nice and clean with folders of all related files, then it could work. But my video rarely works that way.  How does it know what files in a directory go with which videos if it can't read and comprehend the filenames?

[Vocalpoint]

That option only works if you are already moving all files from each directory to the same destination. If you just rip or download albums, and those always come in nice and clean with folders of all related files, then it could work.

Well - that is all I was speaking to. All I got was: "I have 10 MP3s and a jpg and a .log file. If I set a specific folder structure using RM&C - I want the .jpg and .log to move to the same folder that my MP3s are going to move to" That's it. Nothing more.

But my video rarely works that way.  How does it know what files in a directory go with which videos if it can't read and comprehend the filenames?

Your video specific workflow goes way beyond the scope of the original question. While your issues are valid - the OP is talking audio here and how to get the "detritus" to move with his audio files.

VP

[connersw]

I don't need instructions on how to set up a View.  I'm quite aware of the functions of MC, and there is an old tutorial from MrC that describes the best available "work around."  I won't go into details about why none of these "work arounds" work for my situation because you are correct, this has been discussed ad nauseum.  In fact, I've had this very same discussion, with the same people in this thread, multiple times.  In the end, it only matters if the developers take notice and do something about it; which has never happened.  Bottom line, all of these "work arounds" are just that: work arounds.  

I find it vexing that MC requires the average user to set up all these separate Views, take additional steps, or use separate programs simply to Rename a Directory.  The tool is called RENAME, Move & Copy.  However, there is no actual Rename for Directories.  Regardless of what the Windows API officially calls it, MC is the only program I have ever worked with that Rename doesn't actually Rename.  Even Windows Explorer makes it work.

That option only works if you are already moving all files from each directory to the same destination.  It would be a very dangerous option if your source directory was mixed, as mine often are, and I'm sure many other user's are.

If you would read what is being proposed, you would realize it doesn't effect your work flow whatsoever.  RM&C would still function exactly the same as it does now.  There would just be an additional check box to Rename the Directory so that you can move all files (even ones not Imported) to the same destination.  As VP pointed out, it could even be part of your Presets so it is permanently not checked for you.  I don't see this as dangerous at all--it allows a literal Directory Rename.  Something, every other File Management program does.  

It is a bit of a tough problem to solve.  It has been discussed a bunch of times.  I don't think there is a super-killer "clean" way to do it, without sometimes misunderstanding the user's intent.  But, I also don't think it has gone completely unnoticed by JRiver.  All good things come to those who wait.

Sorry, but this simply isn't true.  As you wrote earlier, this has been discussed ad nauseum and nothing has been done about it.  I can find posts dating back to 2010.  ~A year ago, Matt made a comment that he was "listening" for proposals.  A valid fix has been proposed and ignored.  The sad reality is that MC Windows development has slowed to a crawl.  It's been made very clear that their focus is on selling more licenses (ie Apple development) and moving into the hardware space (ie Linux development).  While I may personally disagree with the direction of some of these moves, I cannot fault them for doing so.  They are in the business of making money, and they need to take the steps that they think will make them the most money.  As a repeat customer though, I do find it frustrating when some basic functionality still remains lacking.  

[glynor]

There was and is no need to get all upset.

I agree (and have known all along) that adding a completely new mode to Rename, Move, and Copy Files that works at the directory level would work.  But that makes an already pretty darn complex dialog all the more complex, so I don't call that a clean win either.

Just Add An Option Is Not Always The Best Solution.

When you do that, you end up with options soup.  MC is always teetering on the edge of being too complex to use (it is an advanced application).  Every little thing that gets added, is one more chance for people to be overwhelmed and confused.

I'm not saying that in this case it is NOT a good solution, but I'd say it isn't just "so obvious" that it doesn't bear discussion.

[broncodan]

Well I see this is still a bit of an issue - and it is unfortunate that what seems like a simple fix of a check box that asks if you want everything moved along with the folders (in my case) that are being renamed probably isn't as simple as it seems to be by someone who doesn't know anything about programming.

I briefly looked at the work around/work flow provided by Glynor - but since it isn't a necessity - just something I wanted to fix without losing a bunch of MC tags I guess I will either wait until it is updated - or if it really starts bugging me proceed with the workaround guidance.....

Since this has been an ongoing issue over several versions of MC - maybe it is something that should rate another look at by the Dev's? Seems to me that with V20 there aren't an extremely large amount of new items for people who mainly use MC for Audio but this is one that would encourage me to upgrade.

[rkhorton]

Hello, Everyone! I have found this thread to be extremely informative. In fact I think it may be akin to a posting I made about a week ago concerning a similar, maybe parallel issue. To begin, let me say that Matt gave me excellent, complete directions on how to rename, move files. The process was smooth with an exception. My goal is to move all the files and their folder out of "multiple artists" into the main library because I have corrected the tagging at the end of the ripping process. Apparently MC doesn't see that the new files have an artist attached to them, thus moving them automatically into the main listings. Sort of like what happens with the auto alphabetizing function which I thing is great.

Now the exception: The files are renamed and everything moves to where I want them after directing the software so to do. However, only the files move, not the folder as well. Thus you end up with all these files without being grouped into their original folder.

So I was wondering, if I highlighted and copied the name of the folder in "multiple artists" and pasted it where I wanted and then did the rename, move function and directed the program to put the files there if that would work. So I guess what I am asking is are the tags associated with the files or the files and the folder. If tags are associated with the files and the folder then just copying and pasting the folder name might not work.

Next, there was a check box sort of grayed out in the rename, move, screen directing the "multiple artists" files be placed in the "multiple artists" folder. I have unchecked this and was wondering if that is really the simple solution to my particular problem.

Regards, Richard

[glynor]

Well I see this is still a bit of an issue - and it is unfortunate that what seems like a simple fix of a check box that asks if you want everything moved along with the folders (in my case) that are being renamed probably isn't as simple as it seems to be by someone who doesn't know anything about programming..

I get the problem, and I agree that it should have a solution.

I think that it would be good if they could add something to MC that will accomplish your goal: You have sidecar files with your albums that you want to move with the files, whenever they're moved.

It is, unfortunately, not so simple from a UI design point of view.  Here's the basic problem: The Rename, Move, and Copy Tool doesn't care about folders as a "thing".  It cares about files.  Truthfully, even the filesystem underneath of Windows Explorer (and the Finder on OSX) doesn't consider folders to be "things" either (not in the same sense as files are).  Folders are simply a construct of the filename, and indexes.

If you go to the command prompt and "rename" this file:
M:\Audio\Music\P\Pink Floyd\Ummagumma\2\04 - Sysyphus (Part 4).flac

to:
M:\Audio\Music\P\Fink Ployd\Ummagumma\2\04 - Sysyphus (Part 4).flac

It "moves" the file, but that's really just a rename.  They're the same thing.  The filesystem "creates" the "Fink Ployd" folder.  It doesn't "do" anything to the old folder, other than remove the file from the index.  That's why, with symbolic and hard links, a single file can "exist" in two different folders simultaneously without occupying additional storage space on disk.  Because the "folder" is really just an index of what files it contains.

So... Here's the problem:  MC doesn't know, for sure, that those files belong to the files you're moving.  It works on the files one-by-one, it only knows about the files you've imported into MC, and specifically selected to be moved, and it doesn't know about what might be "still to come" in the batch file list you've selected.  Yes, in your case, it is a single album in a single folder and you want to move it.  But what if:

* That folder contains other files, unrelated to the ones you are moving.  People don't always store things as neatly as you do.  What if they have things strewn about, with multiple, unrelated albums (or movies or whatever) dumped into the same directory.  In the real world, lots of people have piles of junk like this.  We nerds may consider them animals, but they exist and JRiver has to think about them.

* What if you have files selected together, which are all in a common directory, and you're "splitting them up".  Say, for example, you have an album that is a double-CD.  Right now, disc one and two are together in the same directory, and have a bunch of sidecar cover art files and log files and whatnot.  But, you've tagged the files nicely in MC and so now you're going to Rename them into subdirectories for each disc.  Where does it move the sidecar files?  Just with whatever ones happen to come first in the list?  Does it not do it at all then (which would be inconsistent and confusing)?  Does it throw an error or something (hopefully before causing havoc)?

Everyone in this thread, I think it would help if we can try to work together to propose a cohesive suggestion towards this goal.  It annoys me too, even though I don't care about most of those sidecars.  I'd rather it have some way to handle them and delete the ones I don't want, frankly!

But, I get that it is a problem.  I just don't know that there is a "perfect solution".  Or, at least, we haven't found it yet.  Can we try to find it, and discuss it?  If so, I bet it'll get some traction.

[glynor]

While I would not make use of such a function - adding a checkbox to RM&C that says either "Move ALL additional files within source folder" or "Copy ALL additional files within source folder" takes care of everything.

If you would read what is being proposed, you would realize it doesn't effect your work flow whatsoever.  RM&C would still function exactly the same as it does now.  There would just be an additional check box to Rename the Directory so that you can move all files (even ones not Imported) to the same destination.  As VP pointed out, it could even be part of your Presets so it is permanently not checked for you.  I don't see this as dangerous at all--it allows a literal Directory Rename.  Something, every other File Management program does.  

I think this idea is ripe for disaster (people who have poorly organized directory structures trying to fix it, not understanding the checkbox, and causing havoc).  But even ignoring that, how would it handle splitting a directory, as is described above?

If it is a checkbox on the main dialog, then it has to work with all possible selections of files, and anything you can do (including crazy expressions) in the Directories, Filename, and Find & Replace functions combined.  That certainly includes the two use cases I suggested above.  So, if the user does one of those two things, what happens?

Specifically...  What happens if I do that "splitting an album" thing described above?  What if I select all of the files in a big "junk" directory and try to do them all at once, with your option implemented?

I think a new Mode, added to the current Rename, Copy, Copy and Update, and Update Only is much more likely to be functional, because then you can limit usage more easily when it is engaged.

But how can we suggest that it be designed?

Maybe you disallow the Filename rules entirely, and only allow changes at the Directory level?  But then it blocks Find & Replace, which might be very handy in just these kinds of cases.  And, it doesn't really solve the "splitting a directory" problem.

Or, is it better to just make the ability to move folders under Drives & Devices better and allow multi-selecting or something?  I don't like that much because then you can't rename based on tags, which is why the Rename, Move, and Copy tool is awesome.

Or, maybe it is just a checkbox option, but it creates duplicates of any sidecars?  But what if the "sidecar" is a 52GB MKV file that got moved into that directory by mistake?

Or, maybe we can compile a list of all of the most common ones, and naming rules, and it can have some kind of smarts and do it for you, like Carnac does for parsing filenames for tag metadata?  It already tries to do some of this, but it isn't very good about stuff it doesn't create itself.  Can we give them a big list of all the stuff we'd like to include?

[broncodan]

here is a thought - not sure how practical but just throwing it out there - is there any way for files to be "re-linked" by the MC database?  I can actually see where this might be better in many ways - as often people use other programs to move, rename, update, etc...  Sometimes it just is easier and I know when I first started with MC I didn't realize that moving or renaming these files - audio/video/photos, etc  outside of MC would cause MC to see it as a new item.

Could there be an option in the import dialog (or a separate option such as =  relink missing items).  This would connect or look for similar files in a particular folder or something like that?  This could be a check box or some sort of dialog box that isn't attached to a automatic import so it would have to be done separately.  It could automatically or allow for manual review or a combination of both.

As an example - I have all my music in a folder called Music Collection - if I changed some file or folder names and selected this option - it would scan my folder locate the new folders/files and then present the one's that no longer had a link - and then ask me If I wanted to connect them in some sort of dialog box.

I don't know if this could be done off the file's metadata or alternatively have MC add a unique tag to all media that it has cataloged so in the case this happens it can easily match it up (this may help with duplicate files) (this could be an option for those that wanted it). 

I don't know what would be easier (an update of the Rename/move/copy or a separate relink option but just was trying to think of other options that might be considered.  I have seen other programs that are able to link back up (e.g. photoshop album) with files that have been moved or changed.

[glynor]

Auto-Import has a feature like that already called Fix Broken Links.  You can, typically, just move them in Windows Explorer or whatever, and as long as Auto-Import is watching the destination directory, and this is turned on, it will figure it out.

It is a good idea to make a Library Backup first, of course, and worst case you can always fix them after with Find & Replace in the Rename, Move, and Copy files tool.

That's why, I think having something that can use the power of the rename-based-on-tags function of Rename, Move, and Copy is really what is relevant.  Because if you just want to move them through something else, you can.

[glynor]

This thread is worth looking at:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=85790.0

Please, others feel free to dig up old ones too, with useful (not just rehashed over and over) stuff not included here.

[Arindelle]

Auto-Import has a feature like that already called Fix Broken Links.  You can, typically, just move them in Windows Explorer or whatever, and as long as Auto-Import is watching the destination directory, and this is turned on, it will figure it out.

It is a good idea to make a Library Backup first, of course, and worst case you can always fix them after with Find & Replace in the Rename, Move, and Copy files tool.

That's why, I think having something that can use the power of the rename-based-on-tags function of Rename, Move, and Copy is really what is relevant.  Because if you just want to move them through something else, you can.

YES +1.

So many threads on this same subject; so many ways to do this; so many options - its is very powerful R,N&C; it has pre-sets etc. etc.

If you are making a massive reorganization  of your audio files on physical drives - just do it in windows as long as you have set up in advance autoimport to watch the paths in question. BU your library first. After the moves renaming etc. Run autoimport manually -- this is necessary (especially on a NAS/slow network) to do unless you want to wait until "autoimport" gets around to it.

If you want to reorganize just a little bit on the physical drives use Explorer within JRiver (right click locate is something I use all of the time to go quickly either to the internal "explorer" or the windows explorer (external). Library updates itself immediately.

If you want to automate it, import the folder.jpgs with the audio. Create a view with multiple media types (image and audio or even data) and move them with a preset when you are done in R,M & C

Now should the wizard in R,M & C be changed to be more understandable and intuitive, maybe ... is that where limited programming resources should go? .. I don't think so

Why so much ink in so many posts?

If there is something that could be changed, I'd rather see re-working autoimport. (btw - Why is the fix and protect drives not set as default don't see why this should ever be off really - somebody probably asked for it ... why are the "watched paths" linked to importing -- this is not obvious to new users I think and if you turn autoimport off, your watched paths are turned off too).

Most problems seem to arise because people want everything automated, then they are surprised at the time it takes or that the "watched folders" are not immediately updated for any external change. So many problems and bugs arise from everybody tagging and analyzing (or analizing as was said in a prior post). I think the fix/reindex and importing should be separated from any automatic tagging (via internet; not basic tag/folder rules) and audio analysis can take a long time. If you just run the import folder option, no fixing or re indexing is taking place that I can see anyway. Most of the time I keep autoimport off - it would be nice to have the watched files on (or off) all the time and not be dependant on importing.

The only (legitimate?) reason I can see doing all these processes at once is for recording TV shows when your are not at home ... otherwise its appears to be for mass downloaders that go to their torrents and usernets -- "acquire" season 3 of whatever. And when they come home they can play coach potato. Maybe a few people have autoripping boxes that rip 100 cds at a time, but for most one has to physically present to put in a new cd anyway, and letting "auto everything" happen at best you have to retag a lot and at worst something will block the process (bad rip, long path name et al) and people get frustrated and say its broke. I don't know just don't get it, I guess