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[RD James]

I tried to set up Loudness on my speakers today.
To reach 83dB with JRiver at 100% volume the amp is all the way up and the speakers hiss when things get quiet.

Is it possible to reduce the target or set the reference above 100%?
After calibration it seems that my normal listening volume is -36dB (28%) so there is 10-20dB of SNR being wasted.

Reducing the target to 63dB or calibrating to 63dB and setting the reference to 140 (+20dB) seems like it would fix the hiss.

[mattkhan]

this sounds more like you have a gain structure issue in that you don't have a strong enough signal getting to your amp

what's the signal chain?

[JimH]

Check the Windows mixer to make sure nothing is turned down there.

[Hendrik]

Seems like something is fishy there. -36dB from 100% at 83dB sounds like a huge offset and a rather quiet result. I usually listen at 10-15dB below 83dB, and thats not very loud.
Maybe the measurements are off?

[RD James]

this sounds more like you have a gain structure issue in that you don't have a strong enough signal getting to your amp

what's the signal chain?

JRiver > DAC > AMP
Everything is turned up to maximum volume except the amp which is almost at max volume to measure 83dB.

Seems like something is fishy there. -36dB from 100% at 83dB sounds like a huge offset and a rather quiet result. I usually listen at 10-15dB below 83dB, and thats not very loud.
Maybe the measurements are off?

It's a calibrated SPL meter. I just don't like to listen very loud.
With headphones on my iPhone I've never gone above 1/16 volume and often have it turned down from that. The buttons do 1/16 jumps, the slider does 1/64.

I know that a new amp would get rid of the hiss, but so would calibrating to a lower level than 83dB.

[Arindelle]

hmm this is trange and I'm not an expert, but this post is interesting to me maybe I can learn something.

My understanding : -36db from 83db is going to put some quiet passages from my classical stuff below the noise floor of my room?! I don't know what headphones you are using for your iphone but they must be incredibly efficient ones, btw

matt asked your signal chain and you said that JRiver=>DAC=>Amp, so no analogue pre-amp stage or receiver (and you have your cross-overs configured via convolution et al under DSP studio? active digital cross overs? active speakers) or when you say amp do you mean it has a preamp section? (passive crossovers in speakers?)

This is totally an assumption which could be wrong, but lets say your signal chain is something simple like

Windows playback device used : Realtec on board set to WASAPI, exclusive. Internal Volume used as a choice in JRiver. Windows sounds set to off, Volume at 100% (important as Jim pointed out).

If you are going JR to DAC to preamp/amp to speakers 83db might be loud for you subjectively, but it should be easily attainable without putting the amp at any where near 100% (unless you have super inefficient speakers like below 85db sensitivity and a class A tube amp of a very small wattage). I'd guess its that you have the gain set low in Windows and/or you are not using Internal or Disabled volume options and using system or application options. So as said above ==> a gain issue.

If you are using a lot of DSPs (convolution, Parametric EQ, reduction of preamp EQ) because you have your crossovers set-up (Mattkhan and Mwillems to the rescue ! ) and you have an underpowered amp/inefficient speaker combo, you probably have to modify these DSPs somewhere or increase the power of your amp or get more efficient speakers ... again a gain issue.

Whether or not you listen to music just above the noise floor of your room or you listen like I do mostly between 70db and 95/100 db as loud shouldn't really matter setting a reference level .. or am really missing something?

[RD James]

My understanding : -36db from 83db is going to put some quiet passages from my classical stuff below the noise floor of my room?! I don't know what headphones you are using for your iphone but they must be incredibly efficient ones, btw

It's a quiet room. Probably below 30dB with no fans or AC running in it so music 18+ dB above that is plenty loud for me.
No fancy headphones, I just have sharp hearing and don't need it to be loud.

matt asked your signal chain and you said that JRiver=>DAC=>Amp, so no analogue pre-amp stage or receiver (and you have your cross-overs configured via convolution et al under DSP studio? active digital cross overs? active speakers) or when you say amp do you mean it has a preamp section? (passive crossovers in speakers?)

I switched off all the DSP and there's no preamp. Volume is at 100% in Windows and JRiver.
It's just JRiver into an amp connected to the speakers.

If you are going JR to DAC to preamp/amp to speakers 83db might be loud for you subjectively, but it should be easily attainable without putting the amp at any where near 100% (unless you have super inefficient speakers like below 85db sensitivity and a class A tube amp of a very small wattage)

It's an old amp and speakers in that room, not my main setup.
I would probably get better results with a new amp but that's money I would prefer not to spend.
At the level I normally listen to, everything sounds good. There's no hiss from the amp and everything is loud enough.
 
The Loudness feature improves how things sound, it's just that the reference level is too high.
Being able to set the reference above 100 seems like it would be an easy thing to change?
If it's set to 140 then JRiver would think that the volume at 100% is -20dB which would solve this.

[mattkhan]

The Loudness feature improves how things sound, it's just that the reference level is too high.
Being able to set the reference above 100 seems like it would be an easy thing to change?
If it's set to 140 then JRiver would think that the volume at 100% is -20dB which would solve this.

there are some tips in https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89579.0 on how to approach this. The thread is somewhat meandering but it suggests that you can calibrate to a lower level by reducing the MC volume control by a certain amount. I have never tried this so don't know how well it works. Perhaps you can try it and report back.

[RD James]

there are some tips in https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89579.0 on how to approach this. The thread is somewhat meandering but it suggests that you can calibrate to a lower level by reducing the MC volume control by a certain amount. I have never tried this so don't know how well it works. Perhaps you can try it and report back.

I've read the topic and it seems to confirm that the minimum level your amplifier can be set to is 83dB.
Reducing the internal reference level below 100 will raise the maximum volume output, but you can't set the reference level above 100 to lower it.
Hendrik said that he was going to look into changing it.

[mwillems]

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but the hiss is not likely from the amplifier itself; it's very likely the noisefloor of your soundcard being amplified by the amp.  So a $10 passive inline attenuator between the soundcard and the amp input would very likely solve your problem completely (this is what Mattkhan meant above when referring to gain structure).  It would reduce the maximum possible volume output of the system (so you'd probably have to turn the amp all the way up), but would likely kill or drastically reduce the hiss.

An easy way to test if this fix would work: disconnect the computer from the amp and turn the amp all the way up.  If you still have the same hiss, then the amp is the issue and the attenuators wouldn't help.  If you have no hiss (or much reduced hiss), the attenuators would help solve the problem.

I know you're looking for a software fix, but I thought I'd mention the possible hardware solution as it's (comparatively) cheap and easy and has helped a lot of folks with hiss problems.

[RD James]

It's the amp. Hisses when turned all the way up even without any inputs connected.
Calibrating to a level lower than 83dB would fix this for me.
I don't need to go that loud, but that's the quietest volume that JRiver Loudness can be set to.

[RD James]

Hendrik? Anyone?
Would it be a big change to set the reference level above 100?

[Oliverlim]

This is somewhat related.

I have 2 dacs that I use for my desktop system. Both have their output levels slightly different. As such, I have having to keep changing the reference volume in the settings to reflect the one I am using at the moment. Is there a way to automate this including the DSP settings when you change the sound device in JRiver?  I know there is a setting profile in DSP. But it does not make sense to have to load it after you change your sound device. Would it make more sense to be linked?

[RD James]

This is somewhat related.

I have 2 dacs that I use for my desktop system. Both have their output levels slightly different. As such, I have having to keep changing the reference volume in the settings to reflect the one I am using at the moment. Is there a way to automate this including the DSP settings when you change the sound device in JRiver?  I know there is a setting profile in DSP. But it does not make sense to have to load it after you change your sound device. Would it make more sense to be linked?

Set up a zone for each device. http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Zone

[Oliverlim]

Set up a zone for each device. http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Zone

Thanks! Never knew about this feature!  

One more question. There is a "Loudness" in options and there is a adapter volume  option under the dsp studio. Are the one and the same? Of I have to enable both to get the loudness option where it boost treble and bass levels at low level output ?

[RD James]

It's been another week. Any news JRiver devs?
Is it more complicated than just allowing the box to store values above 100?

Thanks! Never knew about this feature!  

One more question. There is a "Loudness" in options and there is a adapter volume  option under the dsp studio. Are the one and the same? Of I have to enable both to get the loudness option where it boost treble and bass levels at low level output ?

Very different features. Just use loudness for the EQ. Or loudness + volume leveling.

[RD James]

Hello? _{Hello? Hello? Hello?
 
Echo.. Echo.. Echo.. Echo..}

[Arindelle]

Hello? _{Hello? Hello? Hello?
 
Echo.. Echo.. Echo.. Echo..}

I don't understand ... what response are you waiting for? a "No or yes we will/will not do this", or whether it is a big change or not? Posts get read

Personally I don't understand why they would want (or should) change a scale of 100 .. but that's just me of course. As it sounds like its an equipment problem, why not look into MWilems suggestion in the mean time, ?

[blgentry]

I'm super confused by this thread.

A.  You keep saying Loudness, but you're actually talking about reference level calibration:  Trying to make movies play relative to an 83 dB SPL reference.
B.  You say your listening level is normally 83 - 36 = 47 dB SPL.  Which is shockingly quiet.  If that's really how you like to listen, why would you be concerned with reference level at all?  It will be WAY too loud for your listening preferences.  Is this just to establish the threshold for Loudness compensation?  I think so.  So forget about 83 dB and read on.
C.  If you really are interested in Loudness as an effect, just turn it on.  Trying to establish a reference level is going to be problematic because of your low listening level.  So loudness should basically just always be "on".  Realize that loudness, as an effect, is really just an estimate.  It's not even a good estimate because you don't know how the original recording was made.  Play with the reference level to make it sound good to you.  Set the reference level to the top end of where you listen as a starting point.  Move it down if you want less loudness effect.  Move it up if you want a more pronounced loudness effect.
D.  If you want more gain, it really should be done on the analog side.  Your amp is slightly noisy at high settings.  Which implies that you should be driving it harder.  Something like this product for example:

http://www.htd.com/Products/line-level-gain-boosters/LGB-1

What is the output level of your DAC?  Is it well matched to your amp?  Or do you have something like a consumer grade output DAC (0.7 Volts) and a pro level input on your amp (2 Volts)?

There are several aspects to this that make this a complex issue.

Brian.

[mwillems]

I'm super confused by this thread.

A.  You keep saying Loudness, but you're actually talking about reference level calibration:  Trying to make movies play relative to an 83 dB SPL reference.
B.  You say your listening level is normally 83 - 36 = 47 dB SPL.  Which is shockingly quiet.  If that's really how you like to listen, why would you be concerned with reference level at all?  It will be WAY too loud for your listening preferences.  Is this just to establish the threshold for Loudness compensation?  I think so.  So forget about 83 dB and read on.
C.  If you really are interested in Loudness as an effect, just turn it on.  Trying to establish a reference level is going to be problematic because of your low listening level.  So loudness should basically just always be "on".  Realize that loudness, as an effect, is really just an estimate.  It's not even a good estimate because you don't know how the original recording was made.  Play with the reference level to make it sound good to you.  Set the reference level to the top end of where you listen as a starting point.  Move it down if you want less loudness effect.  Move it up if you want a more pronounced loudness effect.
D.  If you want more gain, it really should be done on the analog side.  Your amp is slightly noisy at high settings.  Which implies that you should be driving it harder.  Something like this product for example:

http://www.htd.com/Products/line-level-gain-boosters/LGB-1

What is the output level of your DAC?  Is it well matched to your amp?  Or do you have something like a consumer grade output DAC (0.7 Volts) and a pro level input on your amp (2 Volts)?

There are several aspects to this that make this a complex issue.

Brian.

Brian, I think the issue is that MC's loudness compensation option is adaptive based on the reference level setting so the two are pretty closely connected.  MC applies different amounts of loudness compensation based on how far below the reference level you are.  MAtt used the ISO equal loudness contours as a target (because not all frequencies sound equally loud at different SPLs): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour.  The purpose of the feature is to allow music to sound equally "loud" to you at all volumes up to 83dB; if you arbitrarily choose a different calibration level there's no guarantee it will scale correctly.  I'm not a fan of the feature personally, but that's the theory.

So it's not an issue of just having loudness "on" or "off"; the feature won't work correctly if you don't have your reference level set to 83dB with -20dBFS pink noise.  The main use of the reference level setting in MC is to enable the loudness function to work correctly (I'm not sure that setting actually even affects anything else in the program other than the way volume is displayed).

His issue is that folks with systems that play very loud can just lower the reference level and still get "correct' loudness compensation, but if one's system can't play very loud you can't arbitrarily increase the reference level above 100%.  So imagine an amp that at full scale can only drive your speakers to 63dB with -20dBFS pink noise.  A person in such a situation just can't make use of the loudness feature as it's intended to work because they'd need to set their reference level at 140%, which is currently impossible.  So getting back to OP, whose amp can (just barely) drive his speakers to 83dB at -20dBFS, his options are to enable loudness correction at the "correct" reference level and have it work right, but that requires him to open his amp all the way up which gives him hum, or he can set the reference lower and deal with inaccurate loudness compensation.  

Personally, I think the issue could probably be ameliorated through a combination of various hardware tweaks (like your line level boost suggestion if his amp will take it), as it's fundamentally a gain structure issue (the hum is the root problem, not the reference level setting). I also agree that listening at 47bB is a pretty odd use case. And I also agree that loudness correction (even when scientifically calculated and applied) can be a little unpredictable based on source material (as noted, I'm not a fan)

But the fix he's asking for makes sense for certain use cases if you want the correction to be "right", it's just a question of whether the "juice is worth the squeeze" from the dev's perspective.

[blgentry]

The purpose of the feature is to allow music to sound equally "loud" to you at all volumes up to 83dB; if you arbitrarily choose a different calibration level there's no guarantee it will scale correctly.  I'm not a fan of the feature personally, but that's the theory.

I'm very familiar with the feature and the concept.  I just think that hitting the exact reference level is neither necessary nor "accurate".  We've used loudness features on receivers, preamps, etc for years with no calibration.  It just works with a certain start point and stop point (presumably variable in between) and people that like loudness are satisfied with it.  I'm not saying having calibration is wrong or anything.  I'm just saying don't worry about it and set the calibration number to arbitrary values to get the effect that you like.

So it's not an issue of just having loudness "on" or "off"; the feature won't work correctly if you don't have your reference level set to 83dB with -20dBFS pink noise.

  As above, I don't think this is necessary to have the effect work.  It's how it's designed for sure.  But what is "correct" when it comes to an effect like this?  Anyway, I don't mean to belabor the point.  Just saying that I understand.

So imagine an amp that at full scale can only drive your speakers to 63dB with -20dBFS pink noise.  A person in such a situation just can't make use of the loudness feature as it's intended to work because they'd need to set their reference level at 140%, which is currently impossible.

It's nice that you highlighted this in this way.  The question from here becomes this:  Is there additional digital gain that can be applied?  Or is it already hitting full scale on the analog outputs?  If it's below full scale output with average material, you can just apply 10 or 20 dB of gain in the PEQ.  Again, only if the DAC isn't hitting full scale.

Personally, I think the issue could probably be ameliorated through a combination of various hardware tweaks (like your line level boost suggestion if his amp will take it), as it's fundamentally a gain structure issue (the hum is the root problem, not the reference level setting). I also agree that listening at 47bB is a pretty odd use case. And I also agree that loudness correction (even when scientifically calculated and applied) can be a little unpredictable based on source material (as noted, I'm not a fan)

Agreed on ALL points!

Brian.

[Hendrik]

It's been another week. Any news JRiver devs?
Is it more complicated than just allowing the box to store values above 100?

Yes it is, the reference level is used for more aspects than just Loudness, and allowing values to exceed the range we actually can set with Internal Volume is problematic.
I'm not sure how we could solve this. Loudness is a bit of a niche feature which we intentionally never advertised very prominently, because its function is limited to Internal Volume and the ability to measure the reference level.

[RD James]

A.  You keep saying Loudness, but you're actually talking about reference level calibration:  Trying to make movies play relative to an 83 dB SPL reference.
B.  You say your listening level is normally 83 - 36 = 47 dB SPL.  Which is shockingly quiet.  If that's really how you like to listen, why would you be concerned with reference level at all?  It will be WAY too loud for your listening preferences.  Is this just to establish the threshold for Loudness compensation?  I think so.  So forget about 83 dB and read on.

Maybe I just have super-sensitive hearing.
With my projector it's supposed to be a "whisper quiet" 23dB but I can hear the thing several rooms away for example.
Compared to that, playing music at 47-63dB doesn't seem too quiet to me.

C.  If you really are interested in Loudness as an effect, just turn it on.  Trying to establish a reference level is going to be problematic because of your low listening level.  So loudness should basically just always be "on".  Realize that loudness, as an effect, is really just an estimate.  It's not even a good estimate because you don't know how the original recording was made.  Play with the reference level to make it sound good to you.  Set the reference level to the top end of where you listen as a starting point.  Move it down if you want less loudness effect.  Move it up if you want a more pronounced loudness effect.

This post here says that it uses ISO 226:2003 loudness curves: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76608.0
Volume leveling is said to bring everything to a fixed reference level so that volume changes are made to a known reference instead of variable depending on the release. I followed the instructions here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83601.0
So it's not an "effect" it's a calibration feature and it seems to work very well with my speakers. Except for the hiss from the amp because the reference target is too high.

D.  If you want more gain, it really should be done on the analog side.  Your amp is slightly noisy at high settings.  Which implies that you should be driving it harder.  Something like this product for example: http://www.htd.com/Products/line-level-gain-boosters/LGB-1
What is the output level of your DAC?  Is it well matched to your amp?  Or do you have something like a consumer grade output DAC (0.7 Volts) and a pro level input on your amp (2 Volts)?
There are several aspects to this that make this a complex issue.

The DAC is supposed to be 2V RMS output and its volume is at 100%.
I know that the amp probably sucks but it's an integrated unit that I don't have the option of replacing.
It drives the speakers plenty loud for listening to music, it just can't hit the 83dB reference level required for the loudness feature to work correctly.

[Arindelle]

aieeee   boy there is some confusion in this thread  

Maybe I just have super-sensitive hearing.
With my projector it's supposed to be a "whisper quiet" 23dB but I can hear the thing several rooms away for example.
Compared to that, playing music at 47-63dB doesn't seem too quiet to me.

No you are probably mixing up different db measurements. You can't be talking about 23db (SPL). Are you referring to -23db FS by chance  - like you se on a VU meter where over 0 is clipping ? You wouldn't be able to hear 23db from other rooms. Budget recording studio's noise floors are not 23db -- I was in one the other day that went to 10db but I though I was in an anechoic chamber.  83 db is what ... a hair dryer, the ring on an old phone?

Also it really seems that there is a confusion with "Loudness" (the effect) and Volume Level (how loud it is).  If it is the later it is not necessary to calibrate this anyway (especially if as the OP says the amp in question sucks) unless you want the Loudness effect to function perfectly. One can argue about the following chart a bit, but playing music at 47-63db is where quiet to normal conversation is. Their are gain adjustments as Brian mentioned either in a PEQ or messing with the regular EQ preamp gain in DPS studio.  I'm sure your amp will hit 83db SPL, though if you want to use accurately the Loudness effect, of course you can turn this down afterwards .. the amp hiss is something else.



http://trace.wisc.edu/docs/2004-About-dB/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

[RD James]

The spec is 23dB. My meter doesn't measure that low.
I'm just saying that I can clearly hear when its running several rooms away so I think I just have really sensitive hearing, not that I think the spec is wrong.
I don't see the point in arguing whether I listen to things too quietly or not, because my amp still hisses at 83dB no matter what.

Their are gain adjustments as Brian mentioned either in a PEQ or messing with the regular EQ preamp gain in DPS studio.  I'm sure your amp will hit 83db SPL, though if you want to use accurately the Loudness effect, of course you can turn this down afterwards .. the amp hiss is something else.

Like I said, the amp will reach 83dB but it hisses when set to that.
Since the maximum value for reference level is 100, that means the lowest volume the amplifier can be set to for Loudness to work is 83dB.
If your amp can go louder you can easily adjust that by reducing the reference level, but there's no option to increase it.

[mojave]

aieeee   boy there is some confusion in this thread  
No you are probably mixing up different db measurements. You can't be talking about 23db (SPL).

Most home theater projectors are rated from 20-30 dB. Mine is rated at 21 dB. You can hear noises much lower than the noise floor of your room due to the noise being bandwidth limited, yet the SPL meter always measures and calculates based on 8-10 octaves.

Here is one projector for example:  JVC DLA-RS500

[Arindelle]

I don't see the point in arguing whether I listen to things too quietly or not, because my amp still hisses at 83dB no matter what.

As you mentioned 23db, I thought you misunderstood "Loudness" where calibration would (might be) important to calibrate and Volume levels (where in this case) are probably not going to make a difference where they are set (changing the preamp eq might as Brian said, can't check so don't know - I'd leave calibration alone; turn down the hissing amp, and build a zone with a loudness contour in DSP studio if I wanted "Loudness" type  boost at low listening levels).

If you use the Loudness function because you listen to music near the noise floor of your room, however ok. I'm certainly not arguing, on how quiet you want to listen to music. There are other reasons as Hendrick pointed out for calibration. Not sure they are applicable for an amp that is hissing, but what do I know. Sorry for intervening

Most home theater projectors are rated from 20-30 dB. Mine is rated at 21 dB. You can hear noises much lower than the noise floor of your room due to the noise being bandwidth limited, yet the SPL meter always measures and calculates based on 8-10 octaves.

Here is one projector for example:  JVC DLA-RS500

Sure I'm not saying you can't. I don't think most can hear even extended bandwidth several rooms away though. I didn't realize SPL meters are limited to 8-10 octave range though, that is interesting .. thx.

[blgentry]

Like I said, the amp will reach 83dB but it hisses when set to that.

The suggestion then is to add gain somewhere else.  You can add gain in MC through DSP Studio/Parametric EQ/Adjust Volume.  This would allow you to turn your amp down, but still hit your SPL target of 83 dB.

Since the maximum value for reference level is 100, that means the lowest volume the amplifier can be set to for Loudness to work is 83dB.

I think you misunderstand how Loudness works.  This reference value is used to determine when Loudness is turned off.  Loudness applied, using a variable amount based on the value of the volume slider.  When the volume slider reaches the value you put into "reference", it stops applying Loudness compensation.

What is your typical listening volume using MC's volume slider?  Where on that slider to you want to hear loudness applied?  Or more specifically, where on MC's volume slider do you want loudness to STOP being applied?

Brian.

[mattkhan]

The suggestion then is to add gain somewhere else.  You can add gain in MC through DSP Studio/Parametric EQ/Adjust Volume.  This would allow you to turn your amp down, but still hit your SPL target of 83 dB.

this isn't going to help him, he is already at 100% internal volume and says the DAC can do 2V but the amp doesn't have the power to go any louder. If so, I don't think he has a solution to this without changing the amp.

[blgentry]

this isn't going to help him, he is already at 100% internal volume and says the DAC can do 2V but the amp doesn't have the power to go any louder. If so, I don't think he has a solution to this without changing the amp.

Maybe, maybe not.  It's free and very easy to try.

He doesn't need to change the amp to get more analog gain.  Inserting a gain stage between the DAC and amp would help.  What *is* this amplifier anyway?  Does it have a gain range switch?  Many pro type amps have a consumer gain and a pro gain range.

Brian.

[mattkhan]

Maybe, maybe not.  It's free and very easy to try.

He doesn't need to change the amp to get more analog gain.  Inserting a gain stage between the DAC and amp would help.  What *is* this amplifier anyway?  Does it have a gain range switch?  Many pro type amps have a consumer gain and a pro gain range.

Brian.

If the DAC is doing 2V then adding more gain going into the amp is unlikely to do anything useful except clip the amp input. It seems much more likely to be just a weak amp or extremely low sensitivity speakers (or both).

It is possible the amp is misconfigured to attenuate the input excessively though. Hard to say really, the OP seemed confident this wasn't the issue.

[blgentry]

If the DAC is doing 2V then adding more gain going into the amp is unlikely to do anything useful except clip the amp input. It seems much more likely to be just a weak amp or extremely low sensitivity speakers (or both).

It is possible the amp is misconfigured to attenuate the input excessively though. Hard to say really, the OP seemed confident this wasn't the issue.

My guess is that something is making the signal coming out of MC lower than it could be.  Volume leveling for example.  Hey, I could be wrong.  But the OP hasn't really given many details.  Maybe I should leave this thread alone now.

Brian.

[RD James]

Its a cheap consumer amp. But it's hard-wired in its place and it has integrated features that we use. Tuners etc.
Even if it would be cheap to buy a new amp, the job to replace the existing amp would be more expensive than its worth.
There are no input level options on the amp, everything is configured correctly. I think it's just a combination of a weak amp, insensitive speakers, and sensitive hearing.
The amp is working fine for us to play music normally, but it has trouble hitting 83dB so that Loudness can work correctly.
I don't think there is any way to add gain without clipping.
 

I think you misunderstand how Loudness works.  This reference value is used to determine when Loudness is turned off.  Loudness applied, using a variable amount based on the value of the volume slider.  When the volume slider reaches the value you put into "reference", it stops applying Loudness compensation.

I think you misunderstand. The reference is fixed at 83dB in JRiver. You don't get to pick the reference, and that's the problem.
The "reference level" setting is telling JRiver what digital volume level plays 83dB out of your speakers.
Because the highest the "reference level" can be is 100, it means that the lowest volume your amp can be set to is 83dB.

JRiver internal volume is normally in the 15-30% range when everything is calibrated to 83dB.
If the reference level could be reduced from 83dB to something lower it would give me better volume control and more SNR.
 
I tried a few things that were suggested.
It seems that adding 20dB of gain with the PEQ doesn't affect loudness, only the volume control does.
This let me set the amp to 63dB at 100% volume, which eliminated the hiss.
But it means that the volume range in JRiver now has to be 0-10% instead of 15-30% which now has hiss from the DAC and volume jumps in big steps with every %.
So its just swapping the source of the SNR problems around instead of fixing things.
 
If I could set the "reference level" to 140, or change the reference from 83dB to 63dB it would get me 20dB of SNR and let me keep volume in a higher range.