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[DocLotus]

Microsoft says that XP is much more stable then previous versions of Windows.

I find, as usual, Microsoft puts out only half truths, or is it still the smoke & mirrors mentality of the Company?

Case in point...

* It is true that you will experience fewer unexpected crashes as we all had come to know as daily occurrences with Win 98 & the dreaded Win ME.  This is no Win XP magic but simply because Microsoft finally moved Windows away from DOS & 16 bit computing (long, long overdue).  What this means is simply that programs now have their own memory to work in so if Excel crashes it does not bring down the whole system like Win 98 & ME would.  98 & ME shared the same memory so if one program crashed they all crashed (usually).

* Win XP does however, still share one of 98 & ME's very irritating problems... lock ups for apparently no reason.  I see this all too often.  XP may not crash as often but it will suddenly stop responding thereby requiring a re-boot.  The end results being that XP may not crash as much but you still have to reboot about as often as 98 or ME.   Was really hoping that was a thing of the past but no, Microsoft in their infinite wisdom found a way to keep that old charming feature intact in Win XP.

The above aside, Win XP has a whole new set of problems to contend with that can be a lot worse then anything we ever experienced with 98 or ME.

Windows Won't Load...

* In Win 98 sometimes a file would become corrupted or deleted & 98 would not load.  I would then simply do a re-install of 98 which copied all the Windows files on top of the old ones & 98 would then come up like nothing had happened.  This would usually take less then an hour to resolve.

* I bought Win XP Home 1 day after it came out.  I later also bought Win XP Professional. Since that time I have experience the Windows won't load problem on three occasions.  But, unlike 98 there is no easy way to recover from this.  True, XP does offer a re-install Windows option, but nothing will run afterwards as it overwrites the registry, you loose the restore points, and all the Documents and Settings folder is overwritten.  About the only thing saved intact is your documents.  Come on Microsoft... I'm sure if you worked really hard at it, you could of found a way to get rid of them too!

Does Anyone Know What's Going On Here?

As mentioned earlier I have experience the Windows won't load problem on three occasions.  This is what happens...

* I will use Windows one day & all is fine.  Will do a successful close down in the evening.

* The next morning I turn on the computer & Windows won't load... no messages, no error screens, it just won't load.

* OK, lets go to Safe Mode. Guess what... Safe Mode won't load either... no messages, no error screens, it just won't load.

* Well... it's time to use the Restore from last good boot-up. Yep, you guessed it... It won't load either... no messages, no error screens, it just won't load.

* So now is the time to bring out the big guns... select a Restore point from an earlier time. Oh no... it won't load either... no messages, no error screens, it just won't load.

* No I'm really dead in the water.

* NOTHING WORKS (so what's new, remember this is Windows).

* The only thing left is to do a complete install & then restore from my last complete backup.

Any ideas... anyone?

[Stilton]

I haven't any idea what your problem is, nor have I heard something so severe.

When you say 'it just won't load', what actually happens? Does it get to the 'loading windows' with the progress bar, and just freeze? or doesit not freeze but never gets anywhere? or do you just get a black screen? if so, at what point does it go to a black screen? does your hard-drive still turn over? Does your keyboard get power?

Win XP does however, still share one of 98 & ME's very irritating problems... lock ups for apparently no reason.  I see this all too often.  XP may not crash as often but it will suddenly stop responding thereby requiring a re-boot.  The end results being that XP may not crash as much but you still have to reboot about as often as 98 or ME.   Was really hoping that was a thing of the past but no, Microsoft in their infinite wisdom found a way to keep that old charming feature intact in Win XP.

From my experience, this has never been the case for me. I've used XP for 2 years at work now, that's 8 hours a day at work. I've not once had to reboot my machine involuntarily. Not once. I've never had it falling over. And I'm a power user - I always have atleast 6 programs running, including rather bloated ones like Visual Studio.NET. The computer isn't a powerhouse either (1.3ghz, 256 SD-RAM). It also consistantly boots up within 30 seconds.

On the odd occasion, some rouge program has slowed down the system, with the occasional freeze. But all it takes is to kill the program from Task Manager. The worst case scenario is restarting the shell (explorer).

XP has been a huge step from 98, and a natural progression from Win 2000.

[jleerigby]

I've never seen issues as bad as this with XP.  I've been runing XP Pro for 12 months and can count on one hand the number of lockups or crashes I've had.  You blame XP but I bet it's down to some other software, drivers or hardware in your system.

MS are always the target when people have PC problems but I for one am not going to jump on that bandwagon.  Sure they've cornered the market as far as OS goes and we don't have a lot of choice but we have plenty of choice when it comes to e-mail clients, browsers and office products yet we (nearly all of us) choose Outlook, Internet Explorer and Word/Excel.  That's because they are so user friendly and the functionality offered is way ahead of the competition.  Don't tell me that Netscape or Lotus Notes or Smartsuite are better 'cos it's just not true.

Sorry I can't help with your problem and nothing personal but I just get sick of MS-bashing 'cos a lot of it's unjustified.

[kiwi]

I can't help with your problems.  I agree that Win XP isn't as stable as I'd like it to be... but hey... I like using it more than Win2k, and there's no question of it v. Win9x.  

Computers are extremely complicated, particularly when dealing with extremely error prone creatures like humans.  I have helped lots of people with computer problems and computers that crash and invariably, people tend to be the biggest cause of that.

As I was told in my CS class...

"Programming is a competition between programmers and God.  The programmer keeps trying to write idiot proof programs, God keeps creating greater idiots.  Right now, God is WAY ahead."

Or something along those lines, it was a very long time ago... in a period of time that included far far too much beer (not that that is a bad thing.

[DocLotus]

Hi Stilton;

It's just that... won't load.  No screens, no messages, nothing.

I can press the F5 key to get into the Windows start up screen but selecting any of the choices does absolutely nothing.

Hardware is ok.  Hard drive, keyboard & all is running fine.  The keyboard works correctly when I get into the BIOS.  Have also changed the hard drive but this still has happened three times in almost 2 years.

JLee... please don't get me wrong... I really love Win XP.  You are right; it is an improvement over 98 & ME.  XP is not a revolution but just an evolution. As most evolving products, it still carries some of the baggage of older programs along with some of the problems such as... "DLL hell' which Microsoft has acknowledged & says will be resolved in the next version (in two years).

I'm not meaning to bash Microsoft (they manage to do that all by themselves by not listening to their customers) but rather I'm concerned about the growing list of problems with XP which some of the computer magazines are starting to acknowledge.

It continues to amaze me how every new version of Windows is the best thing since bread when it first comes out but in a couple of years you start to hear negative things from the computer magazines.

True, many users have had nothing but positive experiences with XP (I only wish I was one of them).  But, there is a growing list of XP problems such as...

* DLL Hell.  Conflicts between programs trying to access the same common DLL as each program may be looking for a slightly differently version of the so-called common DLL. (acknowledged by Microsoft & widely reported in all the computer magazines).

* Installation problems.  Some users have completely given up trying to get XP to install & run correctly on their computer (also acknowledged by Microsoft & widely reported in all the computer magazines).

* Massive slow downs on some computers after SP1 is installed (acknowledged by Microsoft & widely reported in all the computer magazines).

* Conflicts with some of the latest versions of Norton SystemWorks causing massive slow downs (acknowledged by Microsoft & widely reported in all the computer magazines).  I personally had this problem before I finally completely removed Norton.  I still use Norton (manually) to check my computer for viruses.

* Many, many other smaller issues that are coming to light over time.

* Oh, Did I mention the "Blue Screen of Death"?  That was also to be a thing of the past but I see it about once or twice a month.  Microsoft has conveniently provided (hidden way deep in one of the Control Panel settings) on how you want the Blue Screen information to be reported.  Another really great feature?

I wish I could say the XP is a perfect operating system but sadly I can not (not even close).

Sorry for the hard line, but over the years I have become so totally sick & tired of all the Windows crap that I sometimes feel like screaming (or throwing the computer through the patio door onto the concrete tennis court below).

Have you ever seen that Direct TV add where people are throwing their cable boxes out the window onto the pavement two stories below?  That's how I fell all too often about Windows.

[sraymond]

Doc,

Have you tried the "repair" vice reinstall that you find on the WinXP CD?  I only had to use it once (with a problem similar to yours) and it worked like a charm.  I lost no programs, documents, or settings.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that you aren't running an Intel CPU on an Intel motherboard.  Am I right?

Scott-

[jleerigby]

I think you make some good points which I accept but I still think some of the arguments are unfairly biased against MS.

We could make comments like that about MC as it's still really buggy compared to many other programs.  But we don't because we know that it's the best there is and the pros outweight the cons.

Installation problems.  Some users have completely given up trying to get XP to install & run correctly on their computer (also acknowledged by Microsoft & widely reported in all the computer magazines).

 What - like the guy on this forum who complained about the speed of MC displaying and sorting his 5K files on hix P400 with 128MB ram!

Conflicts with some of the latest versions of Norton SystemWorks causing massive slow downs

Norton recently caused me problems with MC but when I reported it my post was edited and I was told in no uncertain terms that Norton is to blame.  But when it's Norton vs MS everyone blames MS rather than Norton.

The comment about BSODs is a bit unfair IMO as they've reduced dramatically and there's only so much that the OS can handle.  If your memory, mobo or CPU screws up it's got to report it somehow.  Now MS are just giving you the choice of whether to get a BSOD or whether to reboot automatically and try again, which for many users is an improvement.

[Doof]

Sounds like you have a serious hardware problem to me.

What are your system specs, and what brands are you using?

[KingSparta]

after 2 years i got the blue screen of death 1 time with windows XP with Windows ME it was a daily event.

[TimB]

Sorry but IMHO XP rules!

-=Tim=-

[sraymond]

Sounds like you have a serious hardware problem to me.

What are your system specs, and what brands are you using?

That's what I was getting at with my assumption that it wasn't an Intel setup.  In my experience, the easiest (though not the cheapest!) way to avoid problems is to go with a tried and true motherboard/chipset.  After six months of tearing out my hair with constant crashes on a Athlon XP 2200, Gigabyte motherboard with VIA chipset, I gave up and bought an Intel P4 2.4, Intel motherboard with Intel 875 chipset.  Other than a problem with the 1000 NIC causing crashes with Sygate's firewall (which went away when I disabled the NIC), I haven't had a single hiccup in months.  Of course, I could have gone with the 865 chipset and had even more "tried and true".

For example, VIA sees more than its fair share of complaints with the ATI users, so I'm guessing that was my problem.

Non-WHQL-certified drivers certainly don't help either...

Scott-

[Doof]

Well, I've been running an AMD for the last few years now. There have been some compatibility issues with VIA and various other things,  one of which did wind up biting me in the ass, but it was a relatively easy fix.

Nothing of the caliber that DocLotus is talking about though. Some piece of hardware in his system may be flat-out broken.

[NoCodeUK]

I bought XP the day it came out and the only BSOD I have ever had was in the very erly days before all my hardware was fully supported.  This wasn't MS fault but the modem manafacturer who didn't update teh drivers quick enough.  I have and AMD 1700+ on a VIA chipset and have had no problems.

Adam

[phelt]

My top suspects for issues such as DocLotus describes:

evil 3rd party system-level driver - read: nearly any Symantec/Norton utils, older versions of Nero or EZCD, some firewalls... anything that installs as a service or virtual device has a shot at borking your system. This is made worse by the fact that most folks don't seem to know that they even have services or hidden virtual devices.

bad ram - this has a pretty low chance of manifesting itself unless you're in Windows, ie. addressing a lot of memory. You could try a ram tester.

bad IDE cable - I had this happen once. Spent hours trying to get CRC matches on drive-to-drive transfers, running utilities, etc. Then I swapped out the HD cable, even though nothing appeared to be wrong with it. No more of those issues occured. Looked more closely at the replaced cable and it had separated from one connector slightly. Not enough to fail device recognition, just enough to hose data  

bad HD sectors - probably you have run chkdsk or some HD error detection. Lots of folks don't know to do this though.

upgrade/update installation - if the install is not clean, ie a formatted drive or ALL system files deleted, there are problems more often than not, IME.

Something made by VIA is on the mobo - sigh. Try the latest 4-in-1 drivers and hope for the best.

bad capacitors - I get the impression that this is not a newer motherboard, but it's important to note that multiple vendors are eating returns because of a bunch of bad capacitors. Interesting story actually... guy quits one capacitor maker to work for another. Takes secret plans for new and better capacitors with him. His new employer builds and starts shipping the new ones. But the plans weren't finished and there's a flaw that causes them to fail. Oops. The usual weeping and gnashing of teeth ensues.

Voodoo - sometimes some computers are haunted and will never work properly with a new OS. Used to have a tower at an old job that we called the NorthPoint box. Regardless of placement in room it had to be aligned north to south or it would not boot. Seriously.

[DocLotus]

Hi Saymond;

Sorry... Intel P4 2.2 Gig running on a Gigabyte top-of-the-line GA-81I-RXP P4 Titan motherboard, Intel 845 chip set & dual BIOS.

512 MB of DDR Samsung memory.

ATI 7500 A-I-W video card.

2 Maxtor 120GB Hard Drives (brand new two weeks ago).

My system runs really fast (most of the time).

JLee... No doubt Norton was to blame.  They admitted it & came out with a patch to fix the problem.  Funny thing was, Norton ran just fine until Microsoft released SP1. So who's to blame?  I really don't care as it just goes round & round & the nonsense never stops.

Phelt... Yes, I did have a bad IDE cable about 6 months ago (could not find the operating system) but has long been resolved.

I've tested the RAM with a RAM test utility... it's clean.
All hard drives get a clean bill of health form Norton & Chkdsk/f.

Am running the very latest XP updates (always).

This last installation was totally clean.  I gave up trying to get XP's re-install to work so I formatted the drive & re-installed all my programs from scratch.

The good news is after all these problems I'm getting pretty fast at re-installing Windows.  This last time only took 24 hours including re-installing all my programs (and about a week to fine tune the details).

[sraymond]

Sorry... Intel P4 2.2 Gig running on a Gigabyte top-of-the-line GA-81I-RXP P4 Titan motherboard, Intel 845 chip set & dual BIOS.

So much for my theory!  You've got a pretty "tried and true" combination.

The fact that Windows won't load at all would seem to be a low-level problem...  and if I'm not mistaken, Safe Mode doesn't use your Radeon drivers...  or does it?  I was once using DriverCleaner to get rid of all traces of Radeon, and it caused a BSOD immediately on bootup.

Sounds like you've got quite a strange one...  though if you keep smiling, you might not go insane.  Best of luck!

Scott-

[DocLotus]

Hi Sraymond;

SAFE Mode does NOT use the Radeon drivers, it loads a defualt set of Windows video drivers at 480 x 640 resolution.

I'm hoping that as I did a complete clean install of all programs after a drive format that just maybe the problem will go away but knowing Windows I'm not going to hold my breath.

[phelt]

DocLotus: are you sure the ATI services are not being started in safe mode? I can't remember, and I'm not going to reboot to find out...

The reason I ask: I had a few problems with my Radeon when I got it - mainly lock-ups and Explorer crashes. I disabled 8x AGP and fast-writes in display properties. I also disabled some ATI auto-start stuff: atiptaxx.exe (in the run section of the registry) and the ATI Hotkey Poller service. No related problems since then, but I do have to check all that for each new Catalyst install.

[DocLotus]

Interesting... I'll keep my eye on that.

I do have all those items turned on... by default.

If I have the same weird problems again I will turn the ATI stuff off & see what happens

Thanks.