Topic: Combining JRiver with Nas unit (Read 12692 times)

KiwiJohn · « **on:** April 05, 2016, 07:19:10 pm »

I am not a big technophobe but need some direction. The NAS unit I have will need to be changed and I am thinking of getting built a rackmounted NAS unit using Freenas(?) and also installing jriver on it thereby avoiding having to run a PC to run jriver (as the NAS unit will be running all the time). Issue i see is operating system as freenas doesnt need one (?).

Is this feasible?

astromo · « **Reply #1 on:** April 05, 2016, 08:03:05 pm »

Not an expert but from a quick look, I couldn't see a plug in for a VM that would let you run MC on a suitable platform, e.g.:
https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/can-freenas-be-a-virtual-host.14252/

Qnap offers VM functionality but I can't speak for its pro's and con's. What else is out there will be a matter for research or collective experience that others may have.

glynor · « **Reply #2 on:** April 05, 2016, 11:19:59 pm »

If your main goal is to run MC on it to serve a media Library, I wouldn't get a NAS. Get a low power, lower-end server and:
* run Windows 10 on it
* if you feel comfortable configuring a Linux distro, run Linux on it

You don't have to pony up for the Server edition of Windows (I wouldn't recommend this at all), just run Windows 7, 8.1, or 10 Pro on it and you'll be fine. It is plenty good at making file shares that work, and if you don't need to do playback of any kind on it at all, just serving and configuration, then it can be a pretty low-power box and it'll still be fine. You could also consider going the Linux route, though I probably wouldn't if you don't have some Linux experience (or don't mind tinkering).

If you don't need a rackmount system with a lot of storage you could probably do it with an Intel NUC based system and some USB storage. I'm sure you could find some kind of rack-mount deal to mount them together (if you really want them rack mounted).

If you do want something all done up with a bow, here are plenty of nice storage servers for not too much money. Here's a decent HP storage server that's way cheaper than a comparable QNAP or whatever: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=01N-01GG-00035

Arindelle · « **Reply #3 on:** April 06, 2016, 04:31:07 am »

Also just a reminder that Theater View is not supported at this time for Linux and OS X so if you want to use that as a front end you'll have to have Windows in the loop somewhere. Maybe not a concern for you, just mentioning it.

Also installs on NAS's are not supported (except the QNAP version Glynor mentioned). I have a very inexpensive, almost silent PC running JRiver as media server -- 7 HD bays. A recently modern and fast NAS with that many drives is not cheap if its not totally DIY.

Fitzcaraldo215 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2016, 12:58:32 pm »

Silent PC's are often more difficult to configure and they might cost a fair bit more.

Me? I do not know why I need a PC in the listening room at all. Mine is a noisy, unspecialized, but powerful PC in the adjoining room, with USB to my DAC, HDMI to my hi def TV, and USB for my wireless keyboard's adaptor all coming through a small hole in the wall in the back of a closet. Most of the time, playback is controlled via JRemote/wifi anyway. And, PC fan or disc noise is a non-issue.

akira54 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 07, 2016, 06:05:30 pm »

Quote from: glynor on April 05, 2016, 11:19:59 pm

If your main goal is to run MC on it to serve a media Library, I wouldn't get a NAS. Get a low power, lower-end server ...
If you do want something all done up with a bow, here are plenty of nice storage servers for not too much money. Here's a decent HP storage server that's way cheaper than a comparable QNAP or whatever: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=01N-01GG-00035

Apologies for my ignorance, but could you run Windows 7 &c on a server like this, or does it require dedicated server software?

glynor · « **Reply #6 on:** April 07, 2016, 06:24:29 pm »

Quote from: akira54 on April 07, 2016, 06:05:30 pm

Apologies for my ignorance, but could you run Windows 7 &c on a server like this, or does it require dedicated server software?

Sure. It is a computer in a sideways mounted case. In fact, I'd certainly recommend running Windows 7 (or Linux) on it, and not an (unsupported and very expensive) Windows Server edition. Especially, if you're not very experienced in running Windows Server (and if you were, you wouldn't have asked that question).

It is also worth mentioning... I said (emphasis added):

Quote from: glynor on April 05, 2016, 11:19:59 pm

If your main goal is to run MC on it to serve a media Library, I wouldn't get a NAS.

My recommendation was very limited to that point. MC itself works splendidly with most typical consumer NAS devices. It doesn't care where your media files are stored and can ingest and manage files in a variety of locations. I would probably recommend a bit of research and select a NAS that is known to support Windows Filesystem events in its SMB server. That will save you some headache in using MC's Auto-Import system. Many do. Some do not.

Aside from that, though, the limitation is your desire to run MC itself on the NAS. This isn't supported at all. Frankly, the CPUs in most of those boxes are so slow (and overworked with their primary duties as it is) that this is a bad idea. I've played with Plex servers on Synology NAS boxes, and they're... Not very good. I wouldn't run that, and MC is best run on a "real computer". To just serve the Library (and not for playback or Theater View) it doesn't have to be a barn-burner at all, but the CPUs they put in those NAS boxes are... Well. Lets just say it isn't supported and leave it at that.

But, a NAS box plus an Intel NUC (running Windows and MC's Server, and probably some other useful utilities as well)? That would work splendidly.

akira54 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 08, 2016, 02:59:10 am »

Quote from: glynor on April 07, 2016, 06:24:29 pm

My recommendation was very limited to that point. MC itself works splendidly with most typical consumer NAS devices.

But, a NAS box plus an Intel NUC (running Windows and MC's Server, and probably some other useful utilities as well)? That would work splendidly.

Thanks. I had a look at the HP but their webpages are aimed at professionals and I don't believe an OS was mentioned once, hence the question. I have been running MC on a Synology NAS for years and it works splendidly (and so does the NAS), but I have become a little dissatisfied with some of the missing features like (full) disk encryption and the consequences of running RAID 5 when adding or replacing disks.

Your second suggestion of a NAS plus NUC is tempting but in my setup too complicated. MC now runs on a MacMini (Windows bootcamp) in a home theater setting. Since the home cinema is choc-a-bloc with equipment (MacMini, PS, satellite receiver, surround amp, BR player, LAN switch, Logitech Harmony stuff, Sonos Connect, projector), I like to conserve energy and switch everything off (we have a single switch which will do that) when not in use, but then MC would no longer be available. I could move the MacMini out of this room and place it next to the NAS in the cellar where it would be on all the time running the server. However, I would then have to add yet another box in the home theater to run it (and I would lose the TheaterView option). If and when I start using MC as a server for all our other needs in the rest of the house (mainly music), this would be worth considering, but for the sort of incidental access to the server that I would like now, it seems a little over the top. There is also a structural dimension to this. Since MC depends for most of its main functionality on data residing on hard disks, it stands to reason to integrate it with a server.

blgentry · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2016, 06:30:15 am »

Quote from: akira54 on April 08, 2016, 02:59:10 am

I like to conserve energy and switch everything off (we have a single switch which will do that) when not in use, but then MC would no longer be available.

You have to play the price for your decisions. Turning off equipment always has some sort of convenience cost. In most cases it's not worth it to me. It may be for you and you'll have to decide convenience and possibly equipment cost, versus "saving energy".

Quote

There is also a structural dimension to this. Since MC depends for most of its main functionality on data residing on hard disks, it stands to reason to integrate it with a server.

If you want disk + computer in the same box, buy a computer and outfit it with lots of disk. No matter what you do, think about your backup strategy. How will you do backups of a large array of disks? It's not necessarily a trivial problem depending on data sizes.

Brian.

akira54 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2016, 06:54:40 am »

Quote from: blgentry on April 08, 2016, 06:30:15 am

You have to play the price for your decisions. Turning off equipment always has some sort of convenience cost. In most cases it's not worth it to me. It may be for you and you'll have to decide convenience and possibly equipment cost, versus "saving energy".

You may be right. It is a while since I last checked how much power is actually consumed.

Quote from: blgentry on April 08, 2016, 06:30:15 am

If you want disk + computer in the same box, buy a computer and outfit it with lots of disk. No matter what you do, think about your backup strategy. How will you do backups of a large array of disks? It's not necessarily a trivial problem depending on data sizes.

True. At present I backup some 12Tb to another (older) Synology NAS once a week.

glynor · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2016, 06:58:13 am »

Quote from: akira54 on April 08, 2016, 02:59:10 am

Thanks. I had a look at the HP but their webpages are aimed at professionals and I don't believe an OS was mentioned once, hence the question.

I understand completely. No worries! They don't ship them with an OS (most people probably buy them for Linux) but you can put Windows on it, if you buy it separately.

Quote from: akira54 on April 08, 2016, 02:59:10 am

I like to conserve energy and switch everything off (we have a single switch which will do that) when not in use, but then MC would no longer be available.

...

There is also a structural dimension to this. Since MC depends for most of its main functionality on data residing on hard disks, it stands to reason to integrate it with a server.

Yes. I understand this too (and had originally assumed you were going for something like this). In this case, the only real option would be to run a "real" server. Now, it is worth noting that the particular HP I noted, or any similar box, is useful primarily because it is:

* An actual server with server-class hardware (always on rated, error correcting RAM, etc).
* In a rackmount case, which was one of your requirements
* Has a bunch of nice hot-swap hard drive bays on the front of the unit.

There's no reason you couldn't do it with something smaller and cheaper. You could use something like a NUC connected to a USB hard drive array box. Or a cheap PC (perhaps home-built) in a regular tower box. Or even build a server-style rackmount system yourself in a Norco or iStarUSA rack-mount case (though iStarUSA typically doesn't have very nice hot-swap bays, and Norcos have awful loud fans, so be a bit wary), and then save money by using a consumer-class CPU, RAM, and motherboard in the system.

akira54 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2016, 09:51:47 am »

Quote from: glynor on April 08, 2016, 06:58:13 am

* In a rackmount case, which was one of your requirements

Oops, I did not want to hijack this topic, but the rackmount was the requirement of the OP. Thanks anyway.

glynor · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2016, 12:38:22 pm »

Quote from: akira54 on April 08, 2016, 09:51:47 am

Oops, I did not want to hijack this topic, but the rackmount was the requirement of the OP. Thanks anyway.

Oh, my bad. I didn't notice I wasn't talking to the same person!

Louis · « **Reply #13 on:** April 17, 2016, 09:12:13 am »

On this topic I've just acquired a QNAP TS-453A-8G NAS and currently in the process of configuring it to host the QNAP version of MC21.
I had long pondered the very good options Glynor described, but on considering my own use case, I figure for the most part this NAS is all I'll need turned on to serve up 24x7 entertainment, so I trust it will have sufficient grunt to discharge this duty, amongst others. I'm taking notes and if my experience turns out useful I'll post it in the JRiver Media Center 21 for Linux department.

robbiesd · « **Reply #14 on:** June 29, 2016, 03:15:43 pm »

Quote from: glynor on April 08, 2016, 06:58:13 am

There's no reason you couldn't do it with something smaller and cheaper. You could use something like a NUC connected to a USB hard drive array box. Or a cheap PC (perhaps home-built) in a regular tower box. Or even build a server-style rackmount system yourself in a Norco or iStarUSA rack-mount case (though iStarUSA typically doesn't have very nice hot-swap bays, and Norcos have awful loud fans, so be a bit wary), and then save money by using a consumer-class CPU, RAM, and motherboard in the system.

Hi Glynor,
I'm new to all this. I have never had a server nor a NAS. I have about 800+ CD's that I want to catalog and listen to. I also have about 300 LP's that I eventually want to needledrop into the catalog. Everybody seems to think very Highly of JRiver so it seems the right program to use. I have one listening area with a Denon AVR X4000 and an Oppo 83 BR that can both connect to the network. I also have an old ThinkPad laptop connected to the system with long enough cables to use it in the main listening position. I as well have an Android tablet and iPhone. Until I read this post I was thinking a QNAP 251+ w/2x2 TB mirrored was the right way to go. I was thinking JRiver would be loaded on the NAS, but I could load it on the laptop. I assumed it would be best to load the 251+ with max RAM so JRiver would run it's best. If I use the laptop then I need a storage location of some kind if not this QNAP. I have copied a couple of CD's to Windows Media Player and shared them thru both the Denon and the Oppo. Neither one has a nice UI to do this with IMO. What I think I find appealing about the 251+ is it's direct access ability. At least I think I'm understanding that with a keyboard and mouse or the remote I can use the JRiver UI on my display right off the NAS. Can I build a server for the less than $500 or so this NAS setup will cost? If I build a server then I suppose I'd use the laptop to run the JRiver. You also mentioned using regular Win 7-10 and consumer grade drives correct? If I were to do this do you have suggestions for a MB, CPU and amt. of RAM? If i decided on the NAS it would reside in my HT, if I built a server box it would reside at a home office in another room.
Although we don't buy a lot of movies, it would be nice to eventually catalog what we do have and be able to stream to the bedroom as well where we have a networked TV and a Roku box.
Since I'm still trying to understand my options before moving forward you suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Robbie

~OHM~ · « **Reply #15 on:** June 29, 2016, 03:57:15 pm »

Quote from: robbiesd on June 29, 2016, 03:15:43 pm

I was thinking a QNAP 251+ w/2x2 TB mirrored was the right way to go. I was thinking JRiver would be loaded on the NAS, but I could load it on the laptop. I assumed it would be best to load the 251+ with max RAM so JRiver would run it's best. What I think I find appealing about the 251+ is it's direct access ability. At least I think I'm understanding that with a keyboard and mouse or the remote I can use the JRiver UI on my display right off the NAS. Thanks,
Robbie

I own the ts 251+ I bought it diskless as it's cheaper to purchase that way and put in your own HDD and also maxed out the memory my self at 16 gigs tho it states 8gigs is the max, the QNAP user forum suggest the 16gigs and it all shows up. the ts 251+ has it's own op system (Linux based) and yes all you need is a keyboard and mouse tho it does come with a remote.
The ts 251+ also at this time has a app for MC21 (you would need a master licence which I just purchased a month ago so have not been able to use it on the ts 251+ yet) I also would recommend getting larger HDDs right off the bat and using raid 1 and not mirror...you still need to back up your files once again just to be safe.

Ferdi · « **Reply #16 on:** June 29, 2016, 05:30:26 pm »

I got a reasonably sized media collection - mostly music- on a NAS and run MC on a 2016 Compute Stick (cheaper, atom based version), connected on WiFi and hdmi to TV. Playing via jremote.
Works like a charm: best of breed storage system, best of breed OS for JRiver (windows), and very flexible. Fiddling around reduced to minimum!

apgood · « **Reply #17 on:** June 29, 2016, 09:58:47 pm »

Quote from: astromo on April 05, 2016, 08:03:05 pm

Not an expert but from a quick look, I couldn't see a plug in for a VM that would let you run MC on a suitable platform, e.g.:
https://forums.freenas.org/index.php?threads/can-freenas-be-a-virtual-host.14252/

Qnap offers VM functionality but I can't speak for its pro's and con's. What else is out there will be a matter for research or collective experience that others may have.

Unraid would be a viable alternative to freenas that also allows VMs with hardware passthrough when using the appropriate hardware components.

Other advantage is that the disks in the array can be all different sizes so long as the partity drive(s) are the same size or bigger than the largest parity drive.

Also has good pool of docker app and plugins (e.g. makemkv, sonar, bittorrent clients, etc..).

Very flexible depending on your usecase and budget.

Sent from my LG-D802T using Tapatalk

robbiesd · « **Reply #18 on:** June 30, 2016, 07:33:27 am »

Quote from: TAO1857 on June 29, 2016, 03:57:15 pm

I own the ts 251+ I bought it diskless as it's cheaper to purchase that way and put in your own HDD and also maxed out the memory my self at 16 gigs tho it states 8gigs is the max, the QNAP user forum suggest the 16gigs and it all shows up. the ts 251+ has it's own op system (Linux based) and yes all you need is a keyboard and mouse tho it does come with a remote.
The ts 251+ also at this time has a app for MC21 (you would need a master licence which I just purchased a month ago so have not been able to use it on the ts 251+ yet) I also would recommend getting larger HDDs right off the bat and using raid 1 and not mirror...you still need to back up your files once again just to be safe.

Hi Tao,
Thanks for the tip on the 251+ recognising 16 Gb of memory.

~OHM~ · « **Reply #19 on:** June 30, 2016, 09:26:29 am »

Quote from: robbiesd on June 30, 2016, 07:33:27 am

Hi Tao,
Thanks for the tip on the 251+ recognising 16 Gb of memory.

NP

I got this on ebay for a great price...2x 8GB DDR3L 1600 MHz PC3-12800 Sodimm 1.35V - Non-ECC (Crucial)

Aimhere · « **Reply #20 on:** June 30, 2016, 09:34:32 pm »

For what it's worth, I have a Synology DS413j with 16TB of storage in hybrid RAID, with all my media. I used to run MC on my main desktop PC, and I had Sickrage and NZBGet running on the NAS to download and organize shows.

But recently I got a small-tower Lenovo PC to act as my MC library server, and moved Sickrage and NZBGet there as well. All new media gets pushed to the NAS. I could easily add CouchPotato to the mix whenever I get around to it. I plan to use the Lenovo and MC to record over-the-air TV as well, once I figure out a proper workflow for moving recorded TV to the NAS.

Altogether, it works pretty well. I don't have to leave my big power-hungry desktop PC on while watching recorded shows, nor try to do too many things on the underpowered NAS CPU anymore (Sickrage and NZBGet really slowed it down, but the Lenovo handles them easily.) And the Lenovo is small enough that I can hide it behind my TV. Not to mention, it's nearly silent.

rudyrednose · « **Reply #21 on:** July 04, 2016, 03:47:12 pm »

Quote from: Aimhere on June 30, 2016, 09:34:32 pm

I don't have to leave my big power-hungry desktop PC on

For sake of discussion, big bad tower PCs do not have to be power hungry. To each is own solution but...
I got rid of my Synology NAS this winter.

I now run a 24/7 workstation at my desk. It idles at around 38 Watts (measured at the wall plug), and low forties while JR serves video to one client. The computer is always on, acting as a house server (general file server and MC server), runs OTA TV duties, and directly drives a nice 40" 4K monitor (through the Intel IGP) for local editing/viewing and general desktop use. 6 hard drives and 2 SSDs complete the storage. That workstation is based on a Xeon E3-1246v3 (Haswell close cousin to the i7-4790) and a C226 chipset that together add the benefit of ECC DRAM and internal data paths. (got 32GB RAM for a few VMs)

Clients are discrete Intel NUCs, tablets and phones run JRemote.

So, thinking outside of the box for the server allowed me to have my cake and eat it too

MikeO · « **Reply #22 on:** July 10, 2016, 07:15:55 am »

How about a cheap laptop and several external USB drives hidden silently near the media kit or router ?

I power down my equipment most days in the summer to avoid frying stuff in electrical storms. I find it good that a laptop goes to "sleep" and wakes up easily once the power is back on . If I were to use a desktop for that I would need a screen to see what's going on

Currently I just use external USB's direct to my Hi Fi components which is far from ideal I would prefer a networked solution , but the storm situation doesn't help towards that. The laptop is my next generation when I get around to it ...

Mike

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Author Topic: Combining JRiver with Nas unit (Read 12692 times)