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[NoCodeUK]

Hi Matt the new build is fantatic.  AFAI can tell all the bugs mentioned before are fixed.  One suggestion for enhancement if selection is changed in a column can all columns to the right reset to defaul eg the top rather than staying in the same place.  Example: In my video view scheme I have Series/Series #/Episode #.  If I select futurama series 1 episode 4 then select series 2 I would like the episodes column to reset to the top rather than stay at episode 4

Cheers.  I am loving it more after each new build and now we have DVD burning too

Adam

[nila]

I had a thought (wow - I know - amazing).

The new library type would be PERFECT for tagging files.


Imagine if I had a list type data fields for my pictures.

People, If I had a list at the top of all the people that I have in my library already set up, I could then either drag the name FROM the list onto the photos (copying APA style) or could drag the files onto the name in the list (visa versa).

It would be a VERY easy and very intuitive way of tagging the files. It'd also be perfect for allowing us to select multiple values for the field.

What'd u think??

[sraymond]

It would be a VERY easy and very intuitive way of tagging the files. It'd also be perfect for allowing us to select multiple values for the field.

I agree wholeheartedly...  although this would require that the list field become a "multi-list field" (letting the tag contain more than one value - i.e. multivalue).  I hope this is easily doable!

Scott-

[NoCodeUK]

Love it... would make MC a very good image tagger as well as a fantastic music tag and DJ tool... (see bug thread)

Adam

[nila]

Another big thought - (I'm on a roll).
I thought the new library method did this but it doesn't.

Right now: say you have 3 fields to sort by:
year artist album
If you click on artist and choose say aaliyah then it'd still leave the year displaying all the values possible and only filter down the right columns.
It would be soooo nice if there was a button or checkbox we could select (something in clear visible display that is easy to toggle) that would make it also filter down the fields to the left as well as the ones on the right.
That way we wouldn't need to have two seperate views to do this:

Year/Artist/Album
Artist/Year/Album

We could bounce around the fields selecting and deselecting values to kind of narrow down a search using the fields available - we wouldn't have to like set up views for each way we want to narrow it down.

I'm starting to get used to the new method and the ability to do the above would really make it a VERY powerful method of narrowing down searches.
I prefer GUI based searches where I can be selecting and deselecting values quickly and easily to modify the search results - I find it a LOT easier than entering long search strings.

If the above was done then I could simply create a view scheme like this:

Year/Genre/Artist/Album/File Type

and then could perform searches by simply selecting the appropriate values I wanted for any field. It would turn the new method into a visual search tool where u can see all the possible values and select one rather than the old method of searching by entering strings.

It'd be what I've wanted since the day I started using MJ - I dont like doing searches by entering long strings of text and trying to remember keywords - I'd much rather this approach.

If you get what I mean I think you'll realise how powerful a search tool this could make it rather than just being a browsing tool. People could just make a view scheme called: Search with all the fields they usually search by in it then use that every time.

Oh pretty please do it!!
And everyone - if you get what I mean and realise how GORGEOUS it would be then please make a lot of noise so we get it

Pretty please

[sraymond]

Nila,

I was thinking about this exact "concept" late last night.  But I got stuck on the hierarchical nature of a tree (whether it's an actual  tree or the multi-view).  As a tree, we'd expect that filtering down (or to the left, with the multiview) is always accomplished.  But up (or more precisely, across) is a little bit of a twist.

But what does filter up (or to the right) signify?  How far up does it go?  One level?  All the way to the root?  If I understand what you're describing (which is the same as I was thinking), selecting a field value on the right would automatically select all the field values to the left that have the value selected on the right.  Of course, this breaks the filtering to the left.

Thus the presence of a "check box" - which would kind of signify a "global tag based search".  In this sense, wouldn't it want to just extend what already happens when I select more than one value on a field?  Now, if I select two or more of the field values, it gives me an "OR" operator.  I want "OR" amongst a field and "AND" between the fields, right?

Oh boy, now I'm confused...

Scott-

P.S.  I still really like the new mutli-view model (or whatever it's called).

[nila]

Basically the check box would just toggle it between 'Browse Mode' (how it is now) and 'search mode' which is where as you clicked on any field the ones to the left and right both narrowed down to display the results of that field.

The browse mode would just be to navigate to a file/album u wanted where as the search mode would be designed to let u use any fields u wanted to try to find stuff and narrow down a search.
It would completely revolutionise the way MC worked to search and would (in my opinion) make it a LOT more ease to use and understand for beginners (U create a default view that is say: Artist/Album/Year/Genre - and have it in search mode. It is then perfectly set up for beginners to just do basic searches using these four common fields by simply navigating the list and selecting the values they are interested in.

By then also using the search bar as well, a limiter could be added to the search bar to then refine the search even more. It would take the emphasis for basic searches away from the search bar onto the columns and leave the search bar for adding additional more advanced search criteria to refine whatever is selected.

I smell Arnie type power with bread on butter type simplicity.

[NoCodeUK]

I don't think filtering back up is a good idea.  Maybe it would work in the case of the view scheme you described but overall I don't think it would be great.  The lowest level in this case the far left column should remain constant so that you can always go back to and restart a search.  If it has been filtered then this will be confusing for apeople as it no longer shows everything in it.

Adam

[JC]

I'm not sure if this is the place to post requests regarding smartlists (which are related to the Media Library) but ...

The "smart playlist" functionality of another popular music software (not available on PC) seems much more intuitive than smartlists for MC. How would everyone like the ability for smartlists to use this type of creation. Additionally, "Advanced mode" could use the current setup for those that are very familiar with it.

I believe this would really make the smartlist functionality more pronounced as one of the defining features of MC9.1.

Even if the entire functionality of smartlists isn't available in this "basic mode", it will be utilized more frequently if it's more intuitive.

I have seen several questions on smartlist creation on this board and at iPodLounge.com ... it appears that the current method isn't very accessible to the new user. Those that understand them have almost always chosen MC9 as their jukebox of choice  

Food for thought!

[Doof]

I've just discovered that same smartlist wizard myself, and I've been clamoring for it ever since. I think it's the most elegant method of creating a smartlist and searching that I've seen yet.

I say leave the search box for quick and dirty little searches where you're just searching for a few values, and implenent and iTunes sort of smartlist\advanced search tool.

[Kambriel]

Would it be difficult to put some buttons in that we can assign filters to?

[nila]

Adam,
I know what your saying and it would, if used for browsing get confusing if done like I said.
If it could be set to toggle though between browse mode and search mode then the way it acted would depend upon what mode u had it in.
Browse would work how it does now and would be the default, search would then change this to the way i proposed.

Think about your normal music searches - dont you find yourself normally searching using the same 3 or 4 fields?
Imagine if you could do this via a GUI method with all 4 fields showing and just selecting the value u wanted instantly with one click for each field.

U want a new album from this year - click 2003 in the year field, want something mellow and groovey so select Hip-Hop and RnB from the genre field - the other fields are all narrowing down this whole time to let u constantly refine the search just how u want it. Maybe uncheck Hip-Hop and find the other fields altering.


Right now if u want to do this, u either have to create seperate view schemes for:
Year/Genre/Artist/Album
Genre/Year/Artist/Album

If u want to be able to modify the order u search for items in (ie which field is the most important first search criteria for you).

To me this new method would provide the searching tools/method I've always wanted. It's like having the search wizard permenantly displayed for the fields u want to make the searching interface a lot more streamlined.

For say searching by just 3 fields:

No more:
- Click search wizard button
- Browse to appropriate field
- selection box opens
- select value
- click ok

- Click search wizard button
- Browse to appropriate field
- selection box opens
- select value
- click ok

- Click search wizard button
- Browse to appropriate field
- selection box opens
- select value
- click ok


Instead it would be:
- Click on appropriate Search View Scheme
- select value
- select value
- select value


This is just soooooo much easier, smoother and more intuitive - especially for beginners. No more remembering keywords etc.

[NoCodeUK]

Personally I only search using Artist and Album.  I have about 8 genres defined.  95% orf my music is Rock so I rarely bother.  i can understand if you have a lot of genres or you search by year that the current system could be frustrating.  For me it is just right however

Guess its the old thing you will never please all of the people all of the time.

Adam

[Doof]

I think we can all agree that a nice, permanently displayed GUI for performing searches would be nice.

I'm just not sure that the method you've devised would be at all intuitive for anybody but you, Nila.  Each search criteria builds off of the one before it, and a good GUI should reflect that, not require you to bounce back and forth, left and right to click on ever changing values. I think most users would just be confused about what was happening.

And we'd get a hundred posts in here asking why their view schemes keep changing every time they click on something. Even though the answer would be a simple "uncheck this box", it would still generate a ton of support questions.

[NoCodeUK]

I'm definitely with Doof on this one.  I think the current method is highly intuitive and serves exactly my needs as far as searching goes.  I think if columns started repopulating things would get confusing.  I am gonna say go with those extra view schemes.  The fact there is no data in the actual tree now means you have space for more schemes anyway

Adam

[Kurt Young]

After playing with MC on my work laptop all weekend, I can say again that I love the new library browsing method.

Now, please implement a similar method of browsing for playlists, smartlists, and playlist groups.

[Wobbley]

When we refresh (F5), would it possible to keep the focus in the "Artist" pane when viewing the "Album Artist (auto) / Album" view scheme?  Right now, when I make a change to a series of files, such as changing the album name, and then I refresh to see those changes, the "Artist" pane refreshes as well and goes back to the top ("<all>").  I'd prefer it remain at the position (on the artist) it was as I was making a change.

Wobbley

[nila]

Hmm, it could have been set like the filter that resets itself every time MC starts back to browse mode.


If you think about it in terms of browsing (left to right) then yeah it would be confusing.

If you think about it in terms of they're just all search fields that are visible with us able to define which fields are visible to search from then it's not that complex.


As for creating additional views - this is great except we've just lost the ability to create groups which means the tree is going to get VERY long anyway (kind of a step backwards from the whole idea of loosing the tree navigation).

v9 keeps seeming more and more appealing, not sure if I'm gonna use v9.1 or not - it's really on the balance right now.

For me, none of the things that actually effected me using MC were addressed in v9.1 and instead total radical changes were introduced. As a woman would say - it's the little things that matter and in this case they'd be right.

Sure the new GUI might be easier to use but every time I want to do encoding I still find myself going back to razorlame so I can tweak the settings and save settings I like, for ripping I still find myself going back to EAC for little things like it's ability to encode in the background with a que after ripping, etc. All these things need to be addressed more than doing radical changes which although nice, were not actually being requested.

[V-Man]

Well, I'm a progressive kind of a guy, but having installed 9.1.199, I have to say I REALLY STRONGLY DISLIKE the new library view. I tried to get used to it, and completely understand it, but I absolutely hate it and had to go back to the last version I had, 9.0.179. Compared to other jukeboxes, MC is complicated. But that's the price you pay for wanting power-user options. But the new look is such a drastic change. I loved the straightforward approach of drilling down a tree view and seeing a listing in the main view based on the selected node. The 'classical' approach. It's intuitive, and follows a well known paradigm that other applications have emulated for years.

It's all very well being innovative, but I would have liked the choice to have an almost-bug-free version of what I thought I was buying, before being offered something so drastically different.  

[KeystoneCop]

REALLY STRONGLY DISLIKE the new library view

I agree.. I went back to Version 180.  I Can see we all have different needs and tastes, but won't someone at JRiver please make an option to put it back.  How would you like your development tools to change the screens every release.  

[NoCodeUK]

Not that I am splitting hairs but that is exactly what MS did with the last release of Visual Studio.  Change can be a good thing you just have to get used to it.  We all used MC for a long time so were used to the old way...  Now its time to embrace the future and try something new.

Adam

[Doof]

MC has not changed its interface every release.

I can only speak for the versions I've used, but MJ7, MJ7.1, MJ 7.2, MJ8, and MC9 have all had the same interface. They've all had the tree, with the player controls in the lower left corner.

MC 9.1 is the first major GUI change since I've started using the product. And it's a welcome one.

[Kurt Young]

Hear, hear, Doof.  Very welcome indeed.  The more I fiddle with it, especially since 9.1.2, the more I like it.

MC has not changed its interface every release.

I can only speak for the versions I've used, but MJ7, MJ7.1, MJ 7.2, MJ8, and MC9 have all had the same interface. They've all had the tree, with the player controls in the lower left corner.

MC 9.1 is the first major GUI change since I've started using the product. And it's a welcome one.

[nila]

The new library method I can handle - I'm getting used to it. MC is becoming more and more impossible to use with just a keyboard and this new way seems to be doing this even more so.

MC seems to be breaking more and more of the windows standards and norms, this in my opinion is not a good thing at all.

The new view schemes are starting to bug me alot though - if we loose view scheme grouping permenantly I'm going to stop upgrading MC, use the last stable build of v9 and stick to it.

The reason I started using MC is because it was a powerful, easy to configure, well made program - now it seems to be going down the route of the other jukebox programs - force a GUI on you that you might or might not like, give u forced structing for view schemes and break all the standard methods we are used to in windows.


v9.1 is going to be a really hitter and going to put a lot of people off I think. Just hope it manages to also gain a lot of poeple for it's sake.

[JimH]

The new library method I can handle - I'm getting used to it. MC is becoming more and more impossible to use with just a keyboard and this new way seems to be doing this even more so.

MC seems to be breaking more and more of the windows standards and norms, this in my opinion is not a good thing at all.

The new view schemes are starting to bug me alot though - if we loose view scheme grouping permenantly I'm going to stop upgrading MC, use the last stable build of v9 and stick to it.

The reason I started using MC is because it was a powerful, easy to configure, well made program - now it seems to be going down the route of the other jukebox programs - force a GUI on you that you might or might not like, give u forced structing for view schemes and break all the standard methods we are used to in windows.


v9.1 is going to be a really hitter and going to put a lot of people off I think. Just hope it manages to also gain a lot of poeple for it's sake.

Nila,
The interface is a work in progress right now.  If you don't like it, 9.0 works fine.  We know there will be people who prefer 9.0 just as there were some who preferred 8.0 and 7.0 and ...

[NoCodeUK]

If you count up the number of positive responses to the new interface so far compared to the negative ones then I amafraid it looks like you are in the minority Nila.  For most of us this is a welcome change which is actually making MC much more intuitive and easy to use.  You have to expect niggles.  There are lot less bugs than the early 9.0 builds.  No offense to you guys but some of those were dangerous I am guessing there are still many twists and turns left yet before this is done and I think hardly MC is forcing us in one direection I would actually say the guys are trying to make things even more customisable.

Adam

[Doof]

A lot of people bitched when File Properties was docked to the right hand side of MJ when the 9.0 betas first arrived. I believe I was one of these people.

Now people are bitching that its NOT docked to the right hand side. I still have one minor problem with the way File Properties is implemented now, but for the most part, the problems were worked out and everybody seems to like it now even better than they did before.

Give the new interface a chance. It's only on like it's 5th revision. It's only a beta. These things will be hammered out.

But View Scheme Groups better come back...

[Pink Waters]

Ok If you would like to keep the new liberary system .. so be sure that you fix that system to save artist/album selections before we move to any window

[JC]

I'd like to jump in here and relate my experience, as it seems relevant to this discussion.

I purchased an iPod a few weeks ago and began looking for alternative software about the second time I fired up MMJB  

I heard about MC 9 from another forum  (www.ipodlounge.com) and installed 9.0.174 (I think). I played around with that version on my test computer for a couple of weeks. Smartlists were amazing and I could see the wonderful functionality they provided. However, I didn't like the way I had to navigate my music library. It didn't feel smooth and intuitive as it does on the iPod. I remained firmly undecided.

After hearing (err ... reading) the posts about version 9.1, I decided to take the plunge and try it. I purchased about 2 hours later. The changes made the entire program more intuitive for me. Although I'm very familiar with the "tree" interface of windows, the panes struck a nerve (in a good way) and made everything 'click' for me.

I immediately ctrl-clicked on two artists ... and 'voila' ... just what I expected. This type of 'ad-hoc' song filtering was something that was just not easily possible with the tree view.

In the end, the new pane view matches the way I prefer to use the software. In no way am I a "power user" ... in fact, I'm probably still more in the 'newbie' camp at this point. The panes were a more accessible way to navigate my music library.

I know there are many who prefer the tree view. Everyone has their preferences ... I just thought you might like to hear of a 'newbie' experience with both the tree and pane views.

Hope this helps