Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[fandangos]

I really think JRiver is a fantastic media center and the option to use MadVR as a renderer is great still I preffer my TV`s upscaling to MadVR.

I've tried my best to use custom mode, restore madVR settings to default - and yes I'm aware of the madVR installation directory by JRiver - and nothing.

When I play a 1080p movie and use ctrl + J to show the OSD I see it is scaling it to 3840x2160 and my TV is set to 1080p23 in madVR.
Tried setting automatic change in JRiver to 1080p 23hz and this doesn't solve it.

When I use MPC-HC with the same install that MadVR uses in custom mode, MPC-HC doesn't scale it.
So it must be something with JRiver.

This is so weird that when I set the screen to 100% I get a small screen in the center of the screen, even playing a 1080p movie in a 1080p resolution.

[fandangos]

Found a fix, it was one of the many Windows 10 cow dung, not a problem caused by JRiver at all.

You have to set set scaling by application in windows options.
Now everything is working as it should

[rec head]

Just curious which TV? MadVR is way better than my TV's.

There are some switching options in JRiver: Options->Video->Display Settings.

I can't have 3D content upscaled so I had to use those settings to get UHD and 3D  working but don't ask me how. Check this thread https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,115543.msg804587.html#msg804587

[rec head]

@fandangos you posted while I was looking for the thread I referenced. Can you tell me where that Windows setting is?

[fandangos]

Sure,

Right click on your JRiver shortcut on your desktop or the exe for JRiver that you use to open the software.
Go into proprieties -> compatibility -> change high DPI settings -> Override DPI scaling behavior
Set Scaling performed by application.

The thing is, I really enjoy all the users in the MadVR official thread, people are very nice and have tons of knowledge but honestly, I dislike MadVR.
I've always used OPPO players and I own the 103 here. I can't afford a 203 right now and I'm trying my best to have a good experience with my HTPC.

My HTPC has a 1080 Ti and I can use the highest quality upscaling using NGU with very high quality presets for chroma and luma.

The problem is, it is terrible with movies that have grain since it obviously sharperns the grain.
MadVR is outstanding with easy to upscale content like Anime and Cartoons that have flat colors (think South Park).

But when it comes to movies it adds too much noise, it gives a plastic sensation to old movies and this of course can't be seeing my screenshot comparison because grain is noticeable when it moves from frame to frame.

So the best scenario for me is, output 1080p while playing blu-rays and output 4k HDR when playing UHD BD.

As for your question I have a Sony 900E here.
Also, since PCs can't have true YCbCr passtrought because everything is internally rendered in RGB you are bypassing the TV YCbCr -> RGB processing and this is not a limitation of MadVR but a PC limitation.
That's why I rather enjoy OPPOs 203 capability of outputing true YCbCr 4:2:2 at 24hz 12bits and leaving the TV to do the rest.

If by any means there's a renderer that can actually do YCbCr that would be great but I doubt it.

[Hendrik]

The problem is, it is terrible with movies that have grain since it obviously sharperns the grain.
MadVR is outstanding with easy to upscale content like Anime and Cartoons that have flat colors (think South Park).

But when it comes to movies it adds too much noise, it gives a plastic sensation to old movies and this of course can't be seeing my screenshot comparison because grain is noticeable when it moves from frame to frame.

Thats why there are hundreds of options. Not everyone likes a really sharp scaler like NGU, and its by no means appropriate for all content. Thats why other algorithms exist, like NGU AA which gives up some sharpness for better behavior on "noisy" sources, be it intentional grain or just "low quality" material, or some of the other algorithms entirely, all the way down to the "simple" scalers like Jinc or Lanczos.

I'm pretty sure you can get a rather similar upscaled image out of madVR that any TV integrated scaler or Set-Top-Box could provide. Its just not as simple as picking the "best" option, because image scaling is not a "solved" problem. All options have their own pros and cons, ranging from sharpness, ringing, aliasing, to performance. You can't tick all the boxes in one scaling algorithm.

Anyhow using madVRs display switcher to change the resolution during playback is not something we recommend or officially support.

[fandangos]

I fully understand it.

Thanks Hendrik for replying to my silly question.

I still want to compare and draw a conclusion comparising the TV player vs MadVR.
The benefit I believe is possible to have with the TV internal player is that you won't have RGB -> YCbCr convertion that you will have while using a PC.

Using a PC, if I understand it correctly, you will have video stream (YCbCr) -> MadVR (YCbCr -> RGB) -> TV (RGB / YCbCr output depending on the model).
The trick part is that it envolves colors and this is almost impossible to photograph and draw an honest conclusion.

[RoderickGI]

Interesting.

I have a Sony 65X9300D TV, and used to just send it 1080p from MC and let it do its thing to upscale to 4K.

I have now switched to using madVR upscaling via MC using MC switching, and on low-quality source material noticed a "softening with noise" effect on the image. But I haven't tweaked madVR significantly, and I'm just using Jinc upscaling at the moment.

Overall though, I would have to say that the image quality is about the same, or I've just gotten used to the differences. What the TV can do is pretty amazing, but the GTX 1060 and madVR seem to pretty much match it.

Image quality is such a can of worms and so subjective in some ways. Personally, I just like to enjoy the story, as long as the image quality doesn't noticeably distract from the viewing.

One thing I do see on my Sony is that occasionally, and I mean infrequently with no obvious cause, the TV will sort of have a little glitch and then display the resolution info banner again, confirming 4K and the fps being displayed. I am sending the video signal via HDMI directly from the GTX 1060 to the TV. I'm thinking it might be a HDMI issue, possibly with the Sony. Does your Sony do that at all?



PS: I also use Scaling By Application, but that was to get Theatre View to correctly scale and not be oversized.
Windows has still dropped into "3D mode" a couple of times when I have been fiddling around, resulting in Theatre View being rendered in 1920x1080 and hence oversized. I've needed to turn that feature in the Windows Display Settings to get Theatre View back to 4K and correct sizing. Even a reboot doesn't fix that issue, as Windows retains the setting. Basically, it appears that Windows and the nVidia driver can still get out of sync with respect to the 3D setting; Windows thinks it is in 3D mode (or should be), but the nVidia driver knows it isn't playing 3D content, and so has switched that mode off. That has been improved in recent nVidia drivers and Windows updates, but it still isn't perfect.

PPS: I used to output everything in 60Hz 1080p, which meant the GPU was loaded doing the frame rate conversion. As I have now changed to custom MC display switching, as per the thread linked to above, my GPU is less loaded and I can muck around more with madVR settings. I could have used madVR switching, and played with that for a while, but found MC display switching worked better and as it is recommended, I've stuck with that. Less CPU/GPU load, less heat, less noise, more upside for advanced processing. All good.

[Hendrik]

The benefit I believe is possible to have with the TV internal player is that you won't have RGB -> YCbCr convertion that you will have while using a PC.

That is not a given. The display in the TV is ultimately always RGB, so at some point you have to convert to RGB anyway, so doing YCbCr -> RGB in the PC is not harmful as long as it stays RGB after that - which is quite achievable.
There is always one conversion from YCbCr to RGB, you just move where it happens, and madVR is probably better at it.

In general though trying to avoid theoretical problems is not really a worthwhile endavour, what matters is how it looks, and I've never seen any proof that anyone can even see a redundant conversion because it should really have no impact on the image either way - while other advantages that madVR offers do have an impact.

Anyhow we're not comparing using a TVs player or a STB here, thats entirely apples vs. oranges anyway, I can only recommend what to do when actually using MC and the RGB vs YCbCr argument does not apply there. I would just not use a resolution switcher to avoid scaling, because thats quite asking for trouble - instead just select a different scaling algorithm to your taste.