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[RobertNewPi]

Currently using a Hifiberry Digi+ pro and optical out but getting curious about using a DAC straight from the Pi rather than a traditional off-board DAC.
Looking back through the forum I see that products such as the Hifiberry only began to be supported relatively recently so is there  a way of knowing what else will be plug and play with the IdPi?
I saw mention of the ALSA matrix but wasn't clear if that applied more to USB?

[JimH]

Are you asking if an external USB DAC will work with the IdPi?

If so, the answer is probably.  Do you have a specific DAC in mind?

There is no way to install any special software on the IdPi, so check with the DAC manufacturer first.

[RobertNewPi]

Thanks but no, the opposite. I have an external DAC which I use with the optical out from a Hifiberry Digi+ and that all works fine.

What I am looking at is a DAC that slots straight on to the Pi, such as the Hifiberry DAC+. Looking back through threads here there was a point where the Hifiberry products were included in the Linux kernel and then another point later on when the IdPi adopted that kernel meaning that the Hifiberry products needed no additional set-up.

So, as I understand it, a DAC+ would work without software changes in the same way my current Digi+ does - but giving analogue output.

Looking at another product, the ALLO Kali re-clocker (not a DAC I know), it says under compatibility: 'any DAC that works with Hifiberry DAC parameter will work' which suggests to me that other makers are using the same parameters as Hifiberry and that if IdPi supports Hifiberry products it will also support other products that use the same parameters.

[BradATIMA]

This is just my experience, but the Pi sisterboards I have seen usually require some kind of configuration to get them working, even if the kernel has all the appropriate modules. This requires terminal access, which we don't provide with the Id firmware. I can't say that this is always the case, but it warrants some caution.

If this is important, there is an ARM version of Media Center 23 that can be installed on a Pi running Raspbian (not the Id Pi), so if you have a spare mSD card or the NOOBS mSD card that comes with some Pi kits, you can install Media Center 23. This will provide more user control and the Media Center functionality should be the same, but because it lacks the Id firmware, it will require more work to get that functionality back. It does require more skill in Linux, but there are some very good instructions for this on the Linux board. This will also require a Media Center 23 Linux or master license (an Id license won't work). Also, make sure you do not use the Id Pi mSD card for this because it cannot be recovered.

[RobertNewPi]

Thanks for that. I did have a look at the ARM version and decided (having started to read through the instructions) that there was more Linux familiarity required than I was likely to get to grips with without it becoming a project in its own right. The flip side of this is that if the mSD card is corrupted at any point then I would be able to re-install it myself.

The Id Pi actually suits me fine and the fact that the HifiBerry board just worked out of the box is perfect - though I am aware of the early adopters who have helped in getting things to this stage.

Hence the reason for this post: are there add-ons that are known to work without configuration from the experience of users here?

[BradATIMA]

At the moment, the only one I know of is the Hifiberry Digi+ Pro. If anyone knows of any others, they can post them here. We added support for the Hifiberry Digi+ Pro to the Id firmware, so there might be more in the future; however, there are no plans for any others at the moment.

[RobertNewPi]

Thank you, I hadn't appreciated the fact that the Digi+ Pro was a special case to that extent.

[duncan4791]

I use the Digi+-Pro and have been tracking the kernel updates so far. Most new HATS have a ROM which auto configures the Raspberry at boot up, if the drivers have been compiled. Each HAT has a configuration file in the Boot/overlays directory of the SDCard and may also have a driver program baked into the kernel. To determine if the Dac HAT you wish to use is compatible with this version of the kernel:

First- check with the manufacture as to the dtoverlay configuration required. Try to find out from the web or the manufacture if the card requires an additional driver. Most multi clock chip cards have a driver to switch the clock, as needed. Find out if the card uses any other HAT's configuration file, the HiFiBerry Dac+ cards are a popular reference driver for many other Dac HATs.

Second- using any computer and SDCard reader look in the overlays directory in the Boot partition of the card. It is the only thing you can see on Windows, but the card is fully accessible under Linux. Look for a dtbo file with your cards name. If it is missing then this version of the kernel does not support the card explicitly. If an alternative compatible driver is listed then the card may work.

The current overlays set may be incomplete as of today. If you like the dac HAT you have chosen and it doesn't work with the IdPi, then as mentioned it will work with Raspian Linux and MC22.

Hope this helps,
Duncan

[RobertNewPi]

Yes thank you, starting to get a little clearer.

In principle at least, there are currently other Dac HATs that are already in the kernel that Id Pi uses and which self configure and which *should* therefore work without terminal access?

Did you ever look into using the DAC + pro yourself?

[duncan4791]

I have been using the Digi+Pro since it's introduction, which is why I had to figure all this nonsense out in the first place. You do not need any kind of terminal program to configure the IdPi software for a HAT. If the card you chose doesn't have the config ROM, all that you have to do is, use an SDCard reader and then using an ASCII text editor of choice add the manufacture's recommended "dtoverlay=whatever the card is" at the end of the Config.txt file found in the Boot directory.

Have fun,
Duncan

[RobertNewPi]

If this is important, there is an ARM version of Media Center 23 that can be installed on a Pi running Raspbian (not the Id Pi), so if you have a spare mSD card or the NOOBS mSD card that comes with some Pi kits, you can install Media Center 23. This will provide more user control and the Media Center functionality should be the same, but because it lacks the Id firmware, it will require more work to get that functionality back. It does require more skill in Linux, but there are some very good instructions for this on the Linux board.

Does this refer to settings within MC itself and/or the set-up detailed in the guide here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,111505.0.html

or is there more over and above that (in relation to whether a given add-on will work or not)?

What I'm thinking is to use a trial version of MC23 to check whether another HAT works - if it does, within the confines of what I could do with the Id install, then I can go back to the Id. If it doesn't I can decide whether to carry on down the ARM route.

[duncan4791]

Hi Robert,

Raspian is Raspberry Pi org's default OS, as such, ALL HATS work with the latest Raspian. The driver/config data is added to the Raspian repository before or at product release and can then be install via the standard "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade -y" Linux command.
Any audio card that installs under Raspian should show up under ALSA in the JRiver's device selection menu.

If you could post the HAT cards you would like to purchase here then either JRiver or someone else could say if it already works with the IdPi. Otherwise I would suggest you select a card that explicitly states it uses the HifiBerry drivers, such as the Pi2 Design 502Dac card - http://www.pi2design.com/store/p15/502DAC_-_Audio_Shield.html if you want to go high end.

A couple of articles which may be of interest: http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/05/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-touch-music.html or http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2017/05/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-touch-music.html.

[RobertNewPi]

Thank you, that's helpful!

The issues with Id Pi as installed on my device would then be:

1. Whether it is on the latest version of Raspian
2. As it is an Id Pi I can't enter the Linux command you detail, it would need to have been done as part of an update at the JRiver end.

Also to clarify, in a post yesterday BradATIMA said that the Digi+ Pro was the only HAT that he knew to work without additional configuration; what you *seem* to be saying is that other Hifiberry cards would also work as the drivers would be common - is that correct?

[duncan4791]

Robert,

All the Hifiberry config files are in the latest version (22.0.112) of IdPi, so all of them should work.

You seem to misunderstand what I am saying about checking in the IdPi's SDCard Boot partition. Take the 16g IdPi SDCard out of the Pi and put it into a standard SDCard reader attached to the computer you using for these posts, if you are using a computer that is. Open your computers Directory browser on the SDCard. You can then edit the config.txt file in the top directory of the SDCard as explained on the manufactures website.
Since all new HATS have a EEPROM with the config data in it, editing the config.txt is not necessary. However there are settings in the config.txt file that can be changed to accommodate different Video display modes, overclocking the Pi and other usefull things. Check: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/.

It is true that you can not use an XTerm terminal program to change the IdPi's internal configuration because we do not have Root privileges. The Linux commands I specified are for updating the official "Raspian Stretch with Desktop" Linux OS downloaded from RaspberryPi.org, not for the IdPi. The IdPi is based on a customized version of the Raspian code base and is compiled by the guys at JRiver. The IdPi can only be updated by it's menu option when ever JRiver issues a new version. Furthermore, unless I am misunderstanding how JRiver updates the firmware, new HAT types are only supported by a new Kernel update not just the regular Media Center updates.

I hope that I have been more helpful this time.

The adventure continues,
Duncan

[RobertNewPi]

Thanks for taking the time to explain Duncan.
I think I understood that the dtoverlay bit means that when the Pi boots it will load something that it already had but hadn't previously loaded because it wasn't necessary, is that right?
Is it true to say that the version of Raspian that the Id Pi is compiled from (by JRiver) is not necessarily the most recent?
If so, then following from that although all HATs will work with the latest Raspian* they may not work with the latest Id Pi if it is not yet complied from the latest Raspian.
*I may be using the term incorrectly here as you referred to the Raspian repository, if a cards driver/config are added to the repository are they by definition included in the download of the OS?

To check that I understand the sudo-apt bit, is that when you wish to add a new device to an existing Raspian install without having to update the whole thing? Put another way, if the latest Raspian always supports all existing HATs then if a user always updates to the latest version they would always be able to add a new board without going through the get-update bit or is that not the case?

I think the above probably demonstrates why the Id Pi is needed in the first place! - for listeners like me!

[duncan4791]

Hi Robert,

Your getting closer!
First, yes dtoverlay config files are for HAT cards and only the file for the installed HAT will load at boot. Don't worry as long as the product description the for HAT you want says it has an EEProm. Additionally dtparam entries modify other boot settings and load addtional drivers only if they are needed. https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/device-tree.md

Second, yes again the IdPi Firmware sold by JRiver is may not be the latest used by Raspian Stretch with Desktop. Only the HATS in the IdPi firmware will work. Raspberry Pi Org keeps the drivers in it's own distribution up to date.

Third, the sudo apt-get command is used to periodically update the whole running system of any Linux distribution. Unlike Windows or Mac you have to update Linux manually. So yes, if there has been a new HAT released then it will be available in the current build of the kernel used by Raspian OS, just update and go.

The main benefit, for me, of server programs like JRiver IdPi is that it will reboot if the program crashes or the power goes on and off. The Raspian Linux version does not reboot without installing a lot of other code to detect if JRiver is running or not. If, like me, you are not a Linux guru the IdPi is easier.

I checked the Overlay directory just now and these are the cards which are listed and readily available:

iqaudio Dac/Dac+/digi
justboom dac/digi
allo piano dac
Pi2 Design 502dac

I think all of these auto configure.

Do you currently have a Raspberry Pi 3 to play around with?
I am enjoying the conversation so I am ready to answer any other questions I feel confident about. JRiver always remains our reference standard.

Duncan

[RobertNewPi]

That's in the Id Pi overlay directory?

I currently have just the one Pi but a second one to experiment with would be an option. Like you, I am happy with what the Id Pi does.

I did have a quick look at the archimago article you linked to, I need to go back to it but it seemed to be along the 'bits are bits' school of digital. As I say, I'll have a proper look at another time as I may have missed the point, but just to say that when I first set up MC on a NUC with just a USB output some years ago I had all sorts of problems getting the system quiet with computer related hiss and chirruping at the speakers. This turned to be combinations of ground loops and so on that was mostly dealt with after time (and several DACs). The point is that the optical out from the Pi/Digi + into the same DAC is a nicer listening experience than the NUC was (and also nicer than the coax from the same device.)

[duncan4791]

I overlooked the part where you stated you already had a Digi+Pro up and running.
Archimago is definitely a bits are bits, you don't need expensive digital gear for great audio, type of guy. I offered that article because it had actual measurements of the output from a Hifiberry Dac+, in case you were interested.

One of my concerns of using any of the cheap dac HATs is the audio quality it will give. If you are currently using a good dac, you may not be happy with the dac HAT compared with your current setup. If the dac card has 30-50 parts and a good dac has hundreds, what does that mean in audio quality? That is why I chose a S/PDIF card out to my dac. There is the possibility that a USB thumb drive type headphone dac-amp would give better sound out of the Pi, at least you can also use it with a phone. You may end up going through several HAT dacs before you are satisfied, particularly if you are using good amps and speakers.

Another consideration is that the noise on the switching power supply will have a greater effect on the analog out then the S/PDIF. All the audiophile websites that have discussions on Pi servers contain long arguments about using linear supplies vs switching. I have run my IdPi with 2TB hard drive attached off of a 22000ma battery pack with out any problems.

Duncan

[astromo]

I recently got a pi2design 502DAC which by the OEM's advice is recognised by an RPi as the same as a HiFiBerry DAC-Plus but the IdPi doesn't recognise the shield unaided.

I used the method suggested by @duncan4791 at:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,111937.msg773593.html#msg773593
For my pi2design 502DAC stacked on top of a Pi 3 B+, I added the following to /boot/config.txt:

Code: [Select]

dtoverlay=hifiberry-dacplusand I'm now getting audio out of the S/PDIF RCA/Coaxial adaptor from the BNC output on the shield and I've got access to the 502DAC via IdPi Menu > 14  System Mixer

As I said over at:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,115523.msg807601.html#msg807601

From my observation of the IdPi Id 24.0.7 overlay folder, I would agree with @duncan4791 that there is a fair showing of audio HATs/Shields that the IdPi could potentially pick up on. The barriers to confirming function in practice seem to be those with the hardware willing to modify the config.txt file to suit and/or JRiver providing a menu based method to select alternate overlays.

[bob]

I recently got a pi2design 502DAC which by the OEM's advice is recognised by an RPi as the same as a HiFiBerry DAC-Plus but the IdPi doesn't recognise the shield unaided.

I used the method suggested by @duncan4791 at:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,111937.msg773593.html#msg773593
For my pi2design 502DAC stacked on top of a Pi 3 B+, I added the following to /boot/config.txt:

Code: [Select]

dtoverlay=hifiberry-dacplusand I'm now getting audio out of the S/PDIF RCA/Coaxial adaptor from the BNC output on the shield and I've got access to the 502DAC via IdPi Menu > 14  System Mixer

As I said over at:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,115523.msg807601.html#msg807601

It's interesting that the hifiberry itself doesn't require the overlay.
There is supposedly a spec of some non-volatile memory on the hats that can indicate what they are so the overlay specification in the config.txt isn't required but I suppose not a lot of devices are doing that yet...