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[RK]

Hi All,
New to the forum and this is my first post.

The topic - Making movie soundtracks (or concerts) sound satisfying when played thru a high end 2.ch system.
But first a tiny bit of personal background - I am an audio "professional". That is to say that all my working life, income has solely been derived from the high end audio industry and for some years A/V industry too.

It should be noted that for intended effect, multi ch. audio (5.1,7.1 etc) is best played on a multi ch. system. But many of us do not have two music rooms - One for stereo and one for audio / visual. And besides it feels like such a waste to not use those super expensive speakers and amps in the music room for concerts too!

If you have ever tried to play a DVD etc with an exciting soundtrack you may have noticed that it has no impact when played thru a high def stereo system. Its so flat! Its terrible! I have studied into this problem as much as possible (even built an 8 ch to 2 ch analog mixer). It appears the problem is in the mix down. Dolby Digital, DTS etc have very cleaver meta data embedded with good intention for a "general consumer" but not so good for a few of us. It appears when a mixdown to 2ch. is performed fairly severe DRC (dynamic range control) is applied. The LFE ch too is discarded I understand although that may not be such a terrible thing.

I understand JRiver is doing their "JRSS" mix down "to the book" and would thus squash dynamic range (?). It would be so cool to try to set ones own mix down profile. JRiver seems so capable with the Parametric filter options but of course it cannot be used in this context because you have to set audio out to 5.1 or whatever and then a 2ch usb dac etc will not function!  Also I see a number of folk who would like control of the (relative) center ch. level. This could be easy!

Are the developers up to the challenge of building a great mix down with flexibility option?
Or is it already possible within the software but I and others just do not know how to use it?

With best regards and my compliments to the JRiver Team.
RK

[pschelbert]

Hi

I have a setup of 4 channels (5.1), sub and center actualy not connected.
I do not use any downmixing, just fix 12channels.

However the setup is just one.
The file says what it uses, stereo, 4 channel 5.1, 6 channels. If only stereo is used, the other channels(speakers) are idle.
You need a multichannel DAC I use REME fireface UFX, and UFX II), or may be you can use the AV Receiver via HDMI for that.
Plays loud and clear

[RK]

Hi Pschelbert, glad to hear the 4ch option is working out well for you!
But what I really want to look into is JRiver mix down capabilities. Specifically to 2 Ch.
For it appears that aside from JRSS, there are no real options.

With such a powerful platform and considering that (I guess) most JRiver users run 2.ch systems and many (most?) playback video media that is not native 2.ch, surely some mix down options would be desirable?

For sure, most JRiver users care very much about audio quality!

Any one with me on this?

Best,
RK

PS – Some background links -

https://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/18_Metadata.Guide.pdf
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/all-about-audio-metadata.pdf

[stewart_pk]

I understand JRiver is doing their "JRSS" mix down "to the book" and would thus squash dynamic range (?)

I'm not convinced of this.

You can do a custom mix by setting Output Format ---> Mixing ---> No upmixing or downmixing and then doing your mix on the the Parametric Equalizer.

[Hendrik]

JRSS does not touch the dynamic range when downmixing. Its a pretty standard downmix that just sums channels with appropriate factors to maintain the energy levels of the original audio as best as possible.
Most importantly, its independent of the format being played and does not care for dynamic range reduction metadata that such formats may want to force on you ordinarily.

[RD James]

JRSS does not touch the dynamic range when downmixing. Its a pretty standard downmix that just sums channels with appropriate factors to maintain the energy levels of the original audio as best as possible.
Most importantly, its independent of the format being played and does not care for dynamic range reduction metadata that such formats may want to force on you ordinarily.

About the only complaint I would have is that the downmix is optimized for 5.1 and assumes that 7.1 isn't going to have enough energy in all channels to clip.
That generally is a safe assumption to make, though I'd still prefer that it was optional.

[pschelbert]

Hi Pschelbert, glad to hear the 4ch option is working out well for you!
But what I really want to look into is JRiver mix down capabilities. Specifically to 2 Ch.
For it appears that aside from JRSS, there are no real options.

With such a powerful platform and considering that (I guess) most JRiver users run 2.ch systems and many (most?) playback video media that is not native 2.ch, surely some mix down options would be desirable?

For sure, most JRiver users care very much about audio quality!

Any one with me on this?

Best,
RK

PS – Some background links -

https://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/18_Metadata.Guide.pdf
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/all-about-audio-metadata.pdf

Hi

if you want to do more complex mixes as proposed above, you can use the convolver function in JRiver. Tehre you define you filter and mixes (whatever you want to do)

Another way to do mixes is using an audiointerface and the mixer there. RME for example has a mixer "Totalmix" there you can do any crazy thing, mixing any channel to any, filtering, compressor, expander etc.
You can save the mixes, so you can switch between differetn mixes as needed.

[mojave]

About the only complaint I would have is that the downmix is optimized for 5.1 and assumes that 7.1 isn't going to have enough energy in all channels to clip.
That generally is a safe assumption to make, though I'd still prefer that it was optional.

They are different downmixes, though.
The 5.1 downmix uses -1.76 dB for the LFE and -11.76 dB for the other channels
The 7.1 downmix uses -2.30 dB for the LFE and -12.30 dB for the other channels

There is also this:
19.0.24 (8/9/2013)
2. NEW: JRSS downmixing uses per-channel peak levels from audio analysis when they're available to make a better determination about how much (if any) volume reduction is required to prevent clipping after the downmix.

[michael123]

It should be noted that for intended effect, multi ch. audio (5.1,7.1 etc) is best played on a multi ch. system. But many of us do not have two music rooms - One for stereo and one for audio / visual. And besides it feels like such a waste to not use those super expensive speakers and amps in the music room for concerts too!

I have a pretty standard solution - having quite an expensive stereo setup (probably high-end.. it is all relative) - implementing a bypass in my stereo preamp, and then having additional stereo amplifications for surround and center. When I listen to stereo, surround is off. Listen to HT - stereo is off, except for my front speakers.

[RK]

I'm not convinced of this.

You can do a custom mix by setting Output Format ---> Mixing ---> No upmixing or downmixing and then doing your mix on the the Parametric Equalizer.

Hi All,
Thanks for the input. To be clear perhaps I should have said "HQ Home Theater with 2Ch. DAC.
When attempting a manual downmix as suggested above, playback becomes stopped because JRiver still appears to be requiring a DAC attached of the same number of channels as the source material. Thus down mixing into a 2 ch "container" is not possible. Or am I missing some understanding on the suggested approach?

[stewart_pk]

Hi All,
Thanks for the input. To be clear perhaps I should have said "HQ Home Theater with 2Ch. DAC.
When attempting a manual downmix as suggested above, playback becomes stopped because JRiver still appears to be requiring a DAC attached of the same number of channels as the source material. Thus down mixing into a 2 ch "container" is not possible. Or am I missing some understanding on the suggested approach?

Your output format should be 2 channels (stereo).

[RK]

Dear Stewart,
Thanks for your input.

This seems to be a catch 22 because if you set output format to 2 channels (stereo) which is the output format that I want of course, then the Parametric Equalizer ignores any requested actions involving additional channels.  So if you say "Add Center to Left", it does not perform the action required and thus down mixing is not possible!

Unless I am very much mistaken?

Any thoughts?

[Fangio]

This has been requested previously: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,112139.msg776085.html#msg776085

It would be nice to see it implemented.

[RK]

Fangio,
Thanks for the link. It spawns to other threads and indicates a number of people would like to generate their own "custom" 2ch. downmix.
I really hope JRiver would consider this feature request and I would certainly be prepared to do any testing and development of the feature.
While computer (programming) illiterate I can certainly bring audio "insights" to the table.

A quick look suggests something like adding one more selection in the Mixing pull down menu IE "Custom mix".
Internally JRiver would first perform functions requested in the Parametric Equalizer and then output the number of channels as chosen in the Channels pull down menu. This could be 2 ch or any number the user would like to "export". Ideally the mathematics performed within DSP would not have results modified by JRiver (preventing digital clipping etc). A custom mix would therefore require that the user knows how to set it up. For example attenuate L,C,R etc before summing the signals etc!

Would be great!
How about it?

[Hilton]

The easiest way to manage this would be to just let JRSS do it’s downmix to stereo and apply dsp to get the sound back to what you prefer. You obviously won’t get a perfect downmix,  but you are downmixing afterall!  You could play some multi-channel calibration disc and get bass sorted through the downmix by applying dsp boost to get it close enough for a downmix with a sound meter. I have succcessfully done this myself.

[Matt]

It's true that JRSS downmixing is not currently configurable, but the suggested approach of using Parametric Equalizer instead if you don't like the mixing done by JRSS is pretty good.

[RK]

JRiver is one of the most versatile playback "engines" I know of.  Adding the "Custom Mix down" feature will take it up another notch.
I would be very excited if such a feature could be developed and if it can be done so as not to add extra "clutter" for those who do not require the feature, all the better. The suggested approach would surely meet the requirements nicely if developed by the JRiver Team!

[RK]

I guess most of us are back from holidays now...
Can I persuade the JR Team to go for the "Custom Mix Down" option?

Best,
RK

[~OHM~]

Also I see a number of folk who would like control of the (relative) center ch. level. This could be easy!

I have achieved this by hacking a mini plug wire. I send the center ch to a LG sound bar that has it's own remote, this is so sweet. once the volume is set for music playback for 5.1 it's a rare song that I need to adjust it. Playing any type of DVD (well all dvds are ripped to mkv for playback anyway) I now have complete control over the center channel. DVD-TV and all music in the tv room are played through a 5.1 dac. As I prefer this sound I have built a DJ stand (controll center) here is where I have my main computer and at this moment listening to music and composing this post.